EPT[D] VS Random ? - Page 20
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 03 2013 06:34 Salient wrote: The hidden race dynamic gives the random player an information advantage that has no place in a competitive RTS game. It's annoying to start with a handicap when playing vs random. The only thing is to cheese them as hard as possible so the game ends quickly one way or the other. Its had a place in starcraft, the single most competitive rts game ever for more than a decade. Who are you to define what place it has in competitive RTS? I should re-iterate that the majority of your games vs random, the random player has more aggregate handicaps on average than you. | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 03 2013 06:41 Salient wrote: Maybe you could explain why it makes sense to hide the random player's race. The hidden race feature is gratuitous and unnecessary. Its there because its there. Go ask Blizzard ten years ago. Why does Terran have to have a 50 mineral unit that's ranged? It was a design choice that worked. It's a fun general idea to pick your race randomly and get a small advantage out of it being hidden, and it's now synonymous to starcraft culture. There are zero problems with it other than the self-absorbed who make it a problem by refusing to acknowledge random as a race. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On January 03 2013 06:24 rd wrote: Wait a second? What do you mean by fair? Are you implying it isn't fair, that it FAVORS the random player? You can gate FE vZ and win all the way to top GM -- with remote consistency, even. Random exists on the ladder almost exclusively and there are balanced ways to defeat random in all relevant levels of ladder. You can gate expand and win when you're facing something like a 14 pool, but here we're talking about hatch 1st. Think about the exponential economy of a zerg, versus yours. The gap is gigantic between hatch 1st and 1 gate FE. Versus a pool hatch, Zerg is still ahead but if you play really well, you can fill the gap. I don't believe for one second you can consistantly win versus a hatch-1st zerg when you 1 gate expand. In fact, it is doubtful that you can 1 gate expand, because the Zerg can punish you with lings and still be ahead economically. More likely you're going to have to delay your expand until 5'30-6' to be safe. If you don't agree, please show me some replay of a protoss that wins in this scenario versus a good Zerg that doesn't do any early major mistake. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On January 03 2013 07:33 Nyast wrote: You can gate expand and win when you're facing something like a 14 pool, but here we're talking about hatch 1st. Think about the exponential economy of a zerg, versus yours. The gap is gigantic between hatch 1st and 1 gate FE. Versus a pool hatch, Zerg is still ahead but if you play really well, you can fill the gap. I don't believe for one second you can consistantly win versus a hatch-1st zerg when you 1 gate expand. In fact, it is doubtful that you can 1 gate expand, because the Zerg can punish you with lings and still be ahead economically. More likely you're going to have to delay your expand until 5'30-6' to be safe. If you don't agree, please show me some replay of a protoss that wins in this scenario versus a good Zerg that doesn't do any early major mistake. naniwa. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
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phoenixfeather95
665 Posts
Honestly, it's not a big deal. Just go for a safe opening. The Random player will most likely be executing a less refined build compared to yours anyway, since he has to learn (at the minimum) 3 builds for each race... | ||
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musafischer
19 Posts
On January 03 2013 08:53 phoenixfeather95 wrote: I go 1 rax FE every time I meet a Random player. Always worked for me, since 1 rax FE is both safe and economical... Honestly, it's not a big deal. Just go for a safe opening. The Random player will most likely be executing a less refined build compared to yours anyway, since he has to learn (at the minimum) 3 builds for each race... This guy has it right... play safe and solid. Rely on your specialized skill with your race to give you the advantage. No need to go crazy with builds or anything. | ||
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Atrbyg
United States513 Posts
On January 03 2013 08:53 phoenixfeather95 wrote: I go 1 rax FE every time I meet a Random player. Always worked for me, since 1 rax FE is both safe and economical... Honestly, it's not a big deal. Just go for a safe opening. The Random player will most likely be executing a less refined build compared to yours anyway, since he has to learn (at the minimum) 3 builds for each race... This is exactly what I do. I have the same mindset about playing against Random: it's all for practice so playing a Random player is not a big deal. | ||
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Banchan
United States179 Posts
On January 03 2013 08:00 Henk wrote: I don't understand the complaints. In my, say, 50 games against random players, at least 90% answered when I asked them what race they were; not once have I been lied against. Random players want to improve their skills with their races, which they can only do by playing a completely 'fair' game. In my case, about 45% of them say "random" or something cute like that. Out of the 55% that tell me a race, about 5% lie about it. Many times if the random player rolls zerg, I just surrender and queue again. (I'm protoss) | ||
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Raven_zero300
United States33 Posts
On January 03 2013 12:48 Banchan wrote: In my case, about 45% of them say "random" or something cute like that. Out of the 55% that tell me a race, about 5% lie about it. Many times if the random player rolls zerg, I just surrender and queue again. (I'm protoss) I personaly say "Night Elf" because that was my wc3 race. First though, if you are retarded enough to believe what a person says about their race, are you also retarded enough when a player tells you the strat they are going to do to believe that? No? Then stop freaking asking. Random has a place. I have 1400+ wins as random. I enjoy playing random. Why? Because it makes the ladder fun. It prevents me from being a racial strat retard like half of the players here. And most importantly, it prevents me from playing the same game twice. | ||
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
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NrG.ZaM
United States267 Posts
On January 03 2013 13:23 GhostKorean wrote: You can just roll an rng and pick your race and do everything you said Sounds good, random players already play 3 times as many matchups as we do, why not force them to do more bullshit like roll dice or tab out to choose a random number. Wouldn't want to inconvenience the other players in any way, you know. | ||
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
On January 03 2013 14:46 NrG.ZaM wrote: Sounds good, random players already play 3 times as many matchups as we do, why not force them to do more bullshit like roll dice or tab out to choose a random number. Wouldn't want to inconvenience the other players in any way, you know. Well I think it would benefit both players since the popular opinion seems to be to cheese randoms because they don't like playing vs random. Not only that but you get to play the matchups properly (ie A protoss will never FFE vs a random zerg). It's not a big deal, takes like 3 seconds and playing 3 times as many matchups is your choice and rolling for race doesn't change this in any way. I guess if you like having your random advantage you can play random but if you don't mind I don't see why you shouldn't do this. You don't have to be so hostile towards the idea | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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Prugelhugel
Austria637 Posts
On January 03 2013 08:00 Henk wrote: I don't understand the complaints. In my, say, 50 games against random players, at least 90% answered when I asked them what race they were; not once have I been lied against. Random players want to improve their skills with their races, which they can only do by playing a completely 'fair' game. As a Random telling races, I can also say that 90% of the people believe me. But about every second Random I meet either lies or doesn't tell anyways. And I think that this is even worse in lower leagues. edit: And btw, the reason why I play Random isn't the slight advantage, I do it because: - It is way more fun, you stop taking laddergames that serious (Because you are way better/worse in some matchups than your actual ranking says. This means you can play very relaxed because you know you are going to win or lose anyways. But it's always cool if it's the other way around). - If someone raceflames you at the end of the game, you always feel superior. - You know matchups from both perspectives and you don't get stuck in the "this strategy my opponent used is unbeatable" mindset. - People always seem to think that they can't lose in mirror matches against Randoms. As a result, I got to taste of the sweetest tears ever. - You HAVE to play normal macro games, you can't go for really greedy builds or allins (If you don't know your opponent) If I didn't switch to Random I'd still be the cheesy/allinish bm Zerg I used to be. :D But now my SC2gears-wordcloud lists a lot of wp's, gg's and "<---Zerg/Terran/Protoss". | ||
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