|
On January 18 2012 20:38 psychotics wrote:Show nested quote +Actually, all those (or both) comments about "since he is random in your league you are better than him" (not direct quote, but the basic idea) is wrong. well no its actually a pretty reliable statement. because randoms have to know every match up and a person who chooses are race only has to know 3, a random player in the same league is not going to be as strong of a player as the one who chooses 1 race IN A LONGER MACRO GAME. this is the reason why most random players cheese. they can easily learn and master 1 cheese per match up because this doesn't require them to know everything about every aspect of the game for each race and match up. at low levels this is less apparant since both player will make alot of mistakes but the random play should either make more or capitalize on less mistakes as their opponent. this is all generalizations and of course you could run into a top masters smurf account that hes playing random on. but in general its safe to assume your late game is going to be stronger when facing a random player.
what U wrote makes little sense. Think about it- I am a random player, in platinum. I had to learn all 3 matchups, ok. But, I got to this platinum, so I had to beat more or less same people that a player choosing one race would... U never know, every random has better and worse matchups. U cannot assume he got his weaker race, it could be his favourite, in which case he is gonna be much better than U(if in the same league). example: my favourite is toss, least liked is terran. With toss I beat low diamond terrans EZ  , but if I get terran I can lose to gold. If a terran opponent assumes I'm worse in late game and I get toss, they get crushed. my point being: it all depends whether random gets his favourite race or not, because if he gets his best he is probably better than U (cause his weaker matchups caused him to be in a league lower than he would be just playin' one race)
|
On January 18 2012 21:05 FaCE_1 wrote:
which league are you? I'm probably mid-high diamond (don't play enough 1v1 to be sure).
I play random and could help you by playing a coupel game against you. I don't all-in as a random player.
and god I found funny ppl say "don't worry you are better" because he his random...
I'm low/mid master on the EU server.
14/14 isn't really what you want if your random opponent rolled terran and went 1rax FE.. Then you'll have a macro disadvantage compared to hatch first.
That's why i dislike random players. In ZvP i do 11 pool 18 hatch, in ZvT i do hatch first and i do 14/14 (or 15/15) in ZvZ. Against a random i can't use a pre-define opening. I can go 14/14 but there's 2 MU where i'll feel very uncomfortable.
|
On January 18 2012 21:15 Magus.421 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 21:05 FaCE_1 wrote:
which league are you? I'm probably mid-high diamond (don't play enough 1v1 to be sure).
I play random and could help you by playing a coupel game against you. I don't all-in as a random player.
and god I found funny ppl say "don't worry you are better" because he his random... I'm low/mid master on the EU server. Show nested quote +14/14 isn't really what you want if your random opponent rolled terran and went 1rax FE.. Then you'll have a macro disadvantage compared to hatch first. That's why i dislike random players. In ZvP i do 11 pool 18 hatch, in ZvT i do hatch first and i do 14/14 (or 15/15) in ZvZ. Against a random i can't use a pre-define opening. I can go 14/14 but there's 2 MU where i'll feel very uncomfortable.
ah crap.. EU  , i'm on Na so can't help  . We could had some gg, i did beat up some master in big macro fest.
|
On January 18 2012 21:05 FaCE_1 wrote:
which league are you? I'm probably mid-high diamond (don't play enough 1v1 to be sure).
I play random and could help you by playing a coupel game against you. I don't all-in as a random player.
and god I found funny ppl say "don't worry you are better" because he his random...
There's a good reason why 99% of all pros play one race only. It's more or less impossible to play on a high level with more than one race since you need extremely good knowledge of timings and reactions. It might not show in your diamond position, but a good player of race X could definitely critique your play with said race.
I mean, it's nothing but logical that someone who has played 2000 games as Race X is better than someone who has played 2000 games as Race X, Y and Z.
|
On January 18 2012 21:15 Magus.421 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 21:05 FaCE_1 wrote:
which league are you? I'm probably mid-high diamond (don't play enough 1v1 to be sure).
I play random and could help you by playing a coupel game against you. I don't all-in as a random player.
and god I found funny ppl say "don't worry you are better" because he his random... I'm low/mid master on the EU server. Show nested quote +14/14 isn't really what you want if your random opponent rolled terran and went 1rax FE.. Then you'll have a macro disadvantage compared to hatch first. That's why i dislike random players. In ZvP i do 11 pool 18 hatch, in ZvT i do hatch first and i do 14/14 (or 15/15) in ZvZ. Against a random i can't use a pre-define opening. I can go 14/14 but there's 2 MU where i'll feel very uncomfortable.
Why don't you just do 11 pool 18 hatch in all the match ups? Assuming you're doing the 11 over pool, this is the second most economical build (based on an old TL thread). This is pretty strong against all the match ups. It's super safe against any cheese, it will punish any zerg that goes hatch first or 14/14 (At worst you can get drones to be pulled for some time). Against terran, even if they did gasless FE, they're going to be afraid of moving to the lowground for quite some time because you had lings out so early.
|
11 pool 18 hatch is not very good in ZvZ. I use it sometime in ZvT (on Xel'Naga cavern for instance), but never in ZvZ.
|
On January 18 2012 21:26 Magus.421 wrote:
11 pool 18 hatch is not very good in ZvZ. I use it sometime in ZvT (on Xel'Naga cavern for instance), but never in ZvZ.
Why not?
|
On January 18 2012 21:18 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 21:05 FaCE_1 wrote:
which league are you? I'm probably mid-high diamond (don't play enough 1v1 to be sure).
I play random and could help you by playing a coupel game against you. I don't all-in as a random player.
and god I found funny ppl say "don't worry you are better" because he his random... There's a good reason why 99% of all pros play one race only. It's more or less impossible to play on a high level with more than one race since you need extremely good knowledge of timings and reactions. It might not show in your diamond position, but a good player of race X could definitely critique your play with said race. I mean, it's nothing but logical that someone who has played 2000 games as Race X is better than someone who has played 2000 games as Race X, Y and Z.
I know that at pro-level, you need to pick a race but, bellow grand-master, you can play random the same level as anyone.
|
On January 18 2012 21:28 FaCE_1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 21:18 Tobberoth wrote:On January 18 2012 21:05 FaCE_1 wrote:
which league are you? I'm probably mid-high diamond (don't play enough 1v1 to be sure).
I play random and could help you by playing a coupel game against you. I don't all-in as a random player.
and god I found funny ppl say "don't worry you are better" because he his random... There's a good reason why 99% of all pros play one race only. It's more or less impossible to play on a high level with more than one race since you need extremely good knowledge of timings and reactions. It might not show in your diamond position, but a good player of race X could definitely critique your play with said race. I mean, it's nothing but logical that someone who has played 2000 games as Race X is better than someone who has played 2000 games as Race X, Y and Z. I know that at pro-level, you need to pick a race but, bellow grand-master, you can play random the same level as anyone.
No you can't, the same constraint holds. Sure, lets say a random player has played 6000 games, about 2000 for each race, and you've only played 2000 for your race. You're in equal positions on the ladder, and you've played the same amount of games for your races. You lose to the random player. That's sort of like losing to a smurf, the random player has gimped himself and would have been MUCH better had he played all those 6000 games on a main race.
While that means that you can definitely meet a random player who is good enough with his race to take you down in a straight up game, it's not something you should worry about since it makes sense to lose to someone who has played 3 times the amount you have.
|
Imo you should just get a random race, but you're opponent should be able to see what race you ended up with at the loading screen (like in a normal game). Right now I just feel like they always cheese/abuse the fact that you don't know their race is.
|
Personally I open safely but scout early. always check their gas if able and quickly scout close proxy positions on shakuras ect. where proxy rax/gates can be. Just play a safe opening until you fully scout what they are doing and you should be in no worse situation than if you were playing somebody who picked their race and decided to do a very fast all-in on you
|
dude.. it's not because you played a thousand more game then someone that you are automatically better then someone else.
I didn't play more then 50 1v1 but I can play at diamond level with any race.
|
On January 18 2012 21:27 jeeneeus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 21:26 Magus.421 wrote:
11 pool 18 hatch is not very good in ZvZ. I use it sometime in ZvT (on Xel'Naga cavern for instance), but never in ZvZ. Why not?
I feel I have to touch on this. if an early pool is indeed coming in ZvZ (8pool or later) going 11 pool vs 14/14 doesn't actually make it any easier to hold and it only puts you slightly further behind economically from what I've seen in practice matches and ladder games. Micro is of course important in both situations but even a 14/14 can hold a 6 pool just as easily as 11 pool. Most of it comes down to moving your drones around anyway
|
On January 18 2012 21:45 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 21:27 jeeneeus wrote:On January 18 2012 21:26 Magus.421 wrote:
11 pool 18 hatch is not very good in ZvZ. I use it sometime in ZvT (on Xel'Naga cavern for instance), but never in ZvZ. Why not? I feel I have to touch on this. if an early pool is indeed coming in ZvZ (8pool or later) going 11 pool vs 14/14 doesn't actually make it any easier to hold and it only puts you slightly further behind economically from what I've seen in practice matches and ladder games. Micro is of course important in both situations but even a 14/14 can hold a 6 pool just as easily as 11 pool. Most of it comes down to moving your drones around anyway
So if holding early pools is similar in both these situations, and I'm pretty sure 11 overpool 18 hatch is better economically than 14/14 (again based on that old TL thread), then why not go 11 overpool? Personally I always go 14 hatch and so have never done 11 overpool, but I think in theory it would be the second best build.
|
On January 18 2012 21:50 jeeneeus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 21:45 OmniEulogy wrote:On January 18 2012 21:27 jeeneeus wrote:On January 18 2012 21:26 Magus.421 wrote:
11 pool 18 hatch is not very good in ZvZ. I use it sometime in ZvT (on Xel'Naga cavern for instance), but never in ZvZ. Why not? I feel I have to touch on this. if an early pool is indeed coming in ZvZ (8pool or later) going 11 pool vs 14/14 doesn't actually make it any easier to hold and it only puts you slightly further behind economically from what I've seen in practice matches and ladder games. Micro is of course important in both situations but even a 14/14 can hold a 6 pool just as easily as 11 pool. Most of it comes down to moving your drones around anyway So if holding early pools is similar in both these situations, and I'm pretty sure 11 overpool 18 hatch is better economically than 14/14 (again based on that old TL thread), then why not go 11 overpool? Personally I always go 14 hatch and so have never done 11 overpool, but I think in theory it would be the second best build.
Because 14/14 gives way faster lingspeed and banelings, which are needed in ZvZ.
|
On January 18 2012 21:53 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 21:50 jeeneeus wrote:On January 18 2012 21:45 OmniEulogy wrote:On January 18 2012 21:27 jeeneeus wrote:On January 18 2012 21:26 Magus.421 wrote:
11 pool 18 hatch is not very good in ZvZ. I use it sometime in ZvT (on Xel'Naga cavern for instance), but never in ZvZ. Why not? I feel I have to touch on this. if an early pool is indeed coming in ZvZ (8pool or later) going 11 pool vs 14/14 doesn't actually make it any easier to hold and it only puts you slightly further behind economically from what I've seen in practice matches and ladder games. Micro is of course important in both situations but even a 14/14 can hold a 6 pool just as easily as 11 pool. Most of it comes down to moving your drones around anyway So if holding early pools is similar in both these situations, and I'm pretty sure 11 overpool 18 hatch is better economically than 14/14 (again based on that old TL thread), then why not go 11 overpool? Personally I always go 14 hatch and so have never done 11 overpool, but I think in theory it would be the second best build. Because 14/14 gives way faster lingspeed and banelings, which are needed in ZvZ.
Depends on when you get your gas with the 11pool.
|
thank god i can reactor hellion vs any race and still be fine
|
On January 18 2012 21:55 jeeneeus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 21:53 Tobberoth wrote:On January 18 2012 21:50 jeeneeus wrote:On January 18 2012 21:45 OmniEulogy wrote:On January 18 2012 21:27 jeeneeus wrote:On January 18 2012 21:26 Magus.421 wrote:
11 pool 18 hatch is not very good in ZvZ. I use it sometime in ZvT (on Xel'Naga cavern for instance), but never in ZvZ. Why not? I feel I have to touch on this. if an early pool is indeed coming in ZvZ (8pool or later) going 11 pool vs 14/14 doesn't actually make it any easier to hold and it only puts you slightly further behind economically from what I've seen in practice matches and ladder games. Micro is of course important in both situations but even a 14/14 can hold a 6 pool just as easily as 11 pool. Most of it comes down to moving your drones around anyway So if holding early pools is similar in both these situations, and I'm pretty sure 11 overpool 18 hatch is better economically than 14/14 (again based on that old TL thread), then why not go 11 overpool? Personally I always go 14 hatch and so have never done 11 overpool, but I think in theory it would be the second best build. Because 14/14 gives way faster lingspeed and banelings, which are needed in ZvZ. Depends on when you get your gas with the 11pool.
You have to postpone it if you want even close to the same economy as a 14/14, same as you have to build only drones after an 11pool, build lings and you're immediately behind later pools.
|
Random Player here (Gold league, was plat before the switch).
I play most times a very economic build (hatch first 1rax exp, 1gate exp)
Win often times in defending the cheese/all-in i face as a random player... what isn't that bad: defending cheese is a good way in getting a better player.
I don't think there is a single build to go against random.
It is the same against every other player. sometimes you face cheese sometimes it is a high eco build sometimes just a save one. So go for what you like the most and react as you would against other players.
Its not that a 4gate from a random player is any other from a player you know the race from the beginning.
|
I play random (and I never cheese, unless I'm drunk), I like macro games.
My perspective: Hatch first as Zerg (safe vs 99% of builds, just not 10-pool + 8 drones - canon rush/proxy whatever can still be held, if you're good enough), 12-gate at your choke as Protoss (puts you behind economically of course, PvR is toughest, IMO), same opening as always for Terran (however you usually open is fine, you can always scour him before having to make any matchup-related decisions, except "should I gas?" maybe, but you can do gas or no gas opening in all machups). I scout at 10ish supply usually (vs Random).
Sometimes I also go Nexus 1st on big maps if I'm Protoss and feeling particularly ballsy. I wouldn't recommend this though because most random players cheese.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
