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On January 18 2012 22:02 iNViCiOUZ wrote:
Random Player here (Gold league, was plat before the switch).
I play most times a very economic build (hatch first 1rax exp, 1gate exp)
Win often times in defending the cheese/all-in i face as a random player... what isn't that bad: defending cheese is a good way in getting a better player.
I don't think there is a single build to go against random.
It is the same against every other player. sometimes you face cheese sometimes it is a high eco build sometimes just a save one. So go for what you like the most and react as you would against other players.
Its not that a 4gate from a random player is any other from a player you know the race from the beginning.
The difference is that openings which are good vs race X can be bad vs Race Y. For example, going hatch first is without a doubt the best opening vs terran, but can be suicide vs a toss. Vs toss, you want to go 14 pool 16 hatch, but that's hardly a good build vs a zerg.
Vs a 4 gate, it doesn't matter, you can hatch first or 12 pool and still be in a perfectly fine position by the time the 4 gate hits, the problem is earlier cheeses such as proxies.
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I play random, but when i'm playing against random protoss is easy opening. you know their race before making major decisions. with terran you can gasless cc every matchup so I do that vs random, or get a delayed gas for delayed reactor hellions if you scout zerg quickly enough. and as zerg you can hatch first every matchup so i try that versus random. simples.
I find it funny when you play as random and you play macro and win late-game and the other players starts raging about your race and how it takes 0 skill to play that race. xD
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On January 18 2012 22:04 althaz wrote:
I play random (and I never cheese, unless I'm drunk), I like macro games.
My perspective: Hatch first as Zerg (safe vs 99% of builds, just not 10-pool + 8 drones - canon rush/proxy whatever can still be held, if you're good enough), 12-gate at your choke as Protoss (puts you behind economically of course, PvR is toughest, IMO), same opening as always for Terran (however you usually open is fine, you can always scour him before having to make any matchup-related decisions, except "should I gas?" maybe, but you can do gas or no gas opening in all machups). I scout at 10ish supply usually (vs Random).
Sometimes I also go Nexus 1st on big maps if I'm Protoss and feeling particularly ballsy. I wouldn't recommend this though because most random players cheese.
According to Snute, high GM EU, hatch first in ZvZ is a build order loss to 10 pool or earlier pool, drones or not. He actively uses it a lot because he finds it so ridiculous that zergs actually attempt to hatch first in ZvZ.
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Random is definitely way harder to deal with with Protoss, I feel. You're generally the better player so with Zerg you can get away with a slightly less economical opening. With Protoss you can just simply die to silly stuff just because you built your pylon in the wrong place.
I personally would advise always building your pylon next to your nexus. It's way harder to deal with P's double proxy gate and cannon rush with your first pylon at your ramp than it is to defend Z's early pools with your pylon next to your nexus (it's even arguably easier to defend early pools with a simcity in your main).
The only dangerous timing against Z is a speedling (or roach?) all in maybe, but it's less common. Random players usually aren't very fancy or skilled and just want to cheese their way through the ladder, they will just use your everyday cheeses.
And to the few randoms who play the 3 races "to have fun" or "because it's more interesting", you're definitely the minority here. Random is used mainly to abuse the shit out of your opponent early game. If you want to play the 3 races, just pick the 3 alternatively or announce your race to your opponent at the start of the game. If you're not willing to do that, it's just that you want to abuse some random gimmicks, nothing else.
You will have understood that I hate playing random 1v1, but it's even worse in 2v2. Having one random in your team and abuse the shit out of your opponents is a common strat (top #50 2v2 EU). For example, it forces a PT team to wall (unless you're willing to gamble), and then you can go for a siege push or even a proxy marauder with overlord vision at their ramp to kill their buildings.
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When I meet random players on the ladder I just cheese or outright leave the game. It's not very common, and playing against random players does little to improve my skills in any matchup, as I'm either playing from behind, or the player will be unorthodox and impossible to read.
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And to the few randoms who play the 3 races "to have fun" or "because it's more interesting", you're definitely the minority here. Random is used mainly to abuse the shit out of your opponent early game. If you want to play the 3 races, just pick the 3 alternatively or announce your race to your opponent at the start of the game. If you're not willing to do that, it's just that you want to abuse some random gimmicks, nothing else.
this
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How to play against a Random player?
Very easy:
"hi gl hf :D
Mind telling me your race?"
If you are polite and don't give them shit because they play random, then like 80% will tell you the race.
And for the rest, who dont respond i always go for a safe opening, because then there is a high chance of cheese.
Until now i have never encounterd a random player who lied about his race.
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As a random player that announces my race when the game starts (although most people don't believe me when I tell them lol) I seriously have no idea why it doesn't just random your race before the loading screen and show your opponent what race you were given - it changes nothing but the "Wow I have no idea what race this guy got!" thing.
With that being said, you should open a safe/standard opening for every match-up unless you scout him early enough to change it.
PvR: 1 gate expo
TvR: 1 rax expo... you can get gas and go banshees vs. T/P and reactor hellion vs. Z depending on what you scout, but 1rax expo is usually safer/better.
ZvR: 14/14
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As a random player, I want to say this. Every time you face a random on ladder, they have the ranking you have because a ridiculous amount of opponents throw away their games when trying to cheese the random player (of course, crying big tears of imba and unfair afterwards). Just play safe and standard and you WILL have a statistical advantage.
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On January 18 2012 18:42 Magus.421 wrote:
Hi everyone.
I personally dislike when i'm against a random player. Because i just can't do an usual opening.
In addition, many random players just cheese/all-in (i don't know why). I encounter very few random players on the ladder, but they all all-in.
So when i'm facing a random player, i just go 7RR or 6pool. And i feel like "what a useless game ...".
Yesterday, i did a 7RR and the random player was 6 pooling. 6 pool VS 7RR, what a game ^^
How do you play against random players on the ladder ?
14 gas 14 pool, play safe and scout at 10. Easy. Remember that they are random and until you confirm what they are doing just play safe and scout early. You'll get the hang of it.
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I feel like the ability to be random should only affect the person going random.
IE. If i were to pick random then find match. During the loading screen is where i find out what my race is as well as my opponent knows too.
So my opponent would see my race in the loading screen and be unaware that i actually rolled random.
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On January 18 2012 20:44 ThatGuy89 wrote:
as a toss player i hate vs random. You HAVE to build the pylong near your main ramp incase its zerg. If its not, theres no massive problem, but you've lost slight mining time (normally pylon would be right next to nexus) and some buildings might be easier to pick off.
Yeah I actually don't have a standard opening vs random, I feel that it just any opening I use is super fragile against one of the races. Blocking your ramp gets you killed vs 1-1-1 faster than a siege tank blast, building a simcity is great against t and p but good luck trying to take your expo with a million slings running around the map, etc etc.
So I proxygate, cross my fingers and hope for the best.
But yeah I hate randoms, and this is coming from someone who used to play as random until just a few months ago.
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I only have ONE good Random Player experience, who was Toss and did no allin. It was a funny and epic game until mothership and was impressed of that game... but the rest of random enemys was, 6 pools, scv marine allins, hellion marauder allins, 6gate allins... i dont like to apply one standard to all, but its kinda conspicuous and sad. (btw. Diamond Zerg POV)
ontopic:
I hate playing vs them, normally i do 14/14 and it sucks vs hellion expand :D
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On January 18 2012 22:31 Chubz wrote:Show nested quote +And to the few randoms who play the 3 races "to have fun" or "because it's more interesting", you're definitely the minority here. Random is used mainly to abuse the shit out of your opponent early game. If you want to play the 3 races, just pick the 3 alternatively or announce your race to your opponent at the start of the game. If you're not willing to do that, it's just that you want to abuse some random gimmicks, nothing else. this
Harsh but I totally agree with this. No idea why Random is even an option. Or it should at least announce the race in the loading screen so none of this nonsense happens.
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I go 11pool 18hatch vs T and P, and if I face random that rolled Z, ill just throw down a few spines and go into a macro-game.
first let me state the following: a well executed 11pool/18hatch gives an economy that is only slightly weaker than 15hatch 14pool, this is why it even works.
the following can happen:
you play vs P (30%)
do 11pool/18hatch and continue as normal
you play vs T (30%)
do 11pool/18hatch and continue as normal
you play vs Z(30%)
do whatever you do vs Z
you play vs random (10%)
do 11pool/18hatch and see below
you play vs random which rolled P
play as normal
you play vs random which rolled T
play as normal
you play vs random which rolled Z
you have a disadvantage if he went for a very early expand, you have the advantage if he tried to put on early pressure.
all in all, its a way to minimize the amount of different openings you need to remember
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I don't really get how you would be put in an advatange by going 11 pool 18 hatch vs a zerg if he opens aggressively. Seems to me that 14/14 1base ling/bling would hardcounter an 11 pool so hard.
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Just play it solid! As the random player will have less experience with the race he gets, odds play for you.
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opening speedling expand works just fine vs all 3 races. i feel like it's more terran and protoss that need to worry about randoms then zergs.
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Diamond zerg here.
Personally I enjoy playing vs random players just because I know the fact that most random players around my level or below (you only will see a lot of randoms up till diamond. Not nearly as many anymore once you get up to diamond) knows the game very well (thats why they play random) but they just don't have nearly as much practice with every single race. So I feel comfortable playing vs them because I know my mechanics will be way more solid than them.
But I do scout early vs random, because I need to make a decision about which opening I am going with.
Scout at 9-10 supply, and pay extra attention to the minimap. Once you see your opponent's worker, go check immediately and see what kind it is. But keep droning to about 15.
if it is a Terran, they usually scout after depot or barracks (mostly after barracks), so you should have enough time to find him and check his base and respond with 15 hatch (if you can 15 hatch, always 15 hatch vs T)
If it is a Protoss, usually you will see the probe in your base before 15 supply. In that case go 14-15 pool into 16 hatch (if you favor fast ling speed, get extractor at 15 after pool and only mine 100 gas), be extra careful when you decide to open 15 hatch vs P because as random players, they will surely do whatever it takes to get rid of your early lead, including sacrificing their own economy and throw down as many cannons as they want and not caring about wasting money at all. In that case it is very tough on your own. So I will never let that happen and instead go for a pool first opening (a lot of pros do that)
If it is a Zerg, in a lot of maps you will see their overlord before you even start to scout (close air spawn in shattered temple/metalopolis), in that case just go for a normal build. If you find him with drone scout, see his pool timing and react to his. Usually vs 14/14 I will either go gas pool with 1 more drone or go for a pool gas opening (Sheth sometimes opens up with 16 pool 16 gas 16 hatch vs Z) and go for very safe defensive baneling opening (get baneling nest before speed and get 2 queens and 1 spine up really fast)
11 pool 18 hatch is good opening too, but you will be in a slight disadvantage vs T in dealing with fast hellions or 2 rax, and be in a huge disadvantage vs Z, because your tech is late (no gas) and you need to make up for it with extra spine and queen.
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In my experience, random is no different than any other matchup. I generally FE no matter what (unless it's a very specific map type like XNC), and I am comfortable with that opening against every race. I have 2 openings in general for each race, and one is the relative same initial stub across all 3 matchups; with that kind of comfort, I can take a slightly earlier scout than I normally do just to make sure there isn't an unexpected all-in coming. This is not because I expect more cheese, but because you respond differently to different races' cheese (i.e. a 4-rax Marine/SCV all-in is handled very differently by Terrans from a 6-pool, or a 4-gate).
I don't feel that necessarily random = lower skill. It is true that in almost all situations, depth of knowledge/experience kills breadth of knowledge/experience, but it still relates very much to your own state of mind and comfort within that game. Random players trade-off a slight bit of depth in order to gain a psychological edge on their opponent. The easiest way to play against random is to not care about them being random - simply be comfortable with random and scout them when you need to in order to determine your game plan. If you're running an opening that is structurally identical in all 3 race matchups and it will not change period until 20 supply, then don't feel the need to hyper-aggressive scout or prepare for cheese any more than in other matchups.
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EPT
