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On January 07 2013 08:27 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 04:49 kill619 wrote:You can't fix the match-making. There are three races. Like I said, the only way for ratings to be perfect is if everyone were equally skilled against each race, and played to their full ability with each and every game. The game isn't improved by removing random -- and if you were trying to spin this tangent into a point about improving ladder, removing random won't do anything. If there was a magic ladder rating system that could account for players lack of consistency in all match-ups it'd account for random's lack of consistency too, lol. I've proposed a way that could fix the problem with ladder multiple times and you've yet to explain why you, apparently, think it wouldn't work. And once again, I never said anything about wanting to remove random, simply to examine HR and all its positive and negative effects on the game. So many people? The only people who ever give a shit to go out of their way to bitch on a forum are a vocal minority. The people actually able to deal with random who couldn't care less out-number them by magnitudes in the hundreds. You have nothing that proves that statement. I said what I did based on the existence of plenty of threads, just like this one, about random, that you can find on plenty of different forums. A lot of those forums start off as or devolve into 1 group of people bashing random as cheesy/gimicky/stupid and another group bashing the first one for not being competent enough to just deal with HR and any other problems people have with random. Is SC2 now a democracy (of the most vocal players) where everyone votes for their favorite features, or can we acknowledge that players aren't qualified in many respects to have an opinion in an argument they have an invested bias in -- let alone aren't capable of even comprehending completely? It's painfully obvious you didn't read all of what you were responding to, or at the very least didn't understand it very well. It's fine if you didn't understand what I was saying, but to ignore it instead of asking me to explain what I was talking about is only gonna make this argument last way longer than it needs to. I'd recommend you re-read it and try again. Why are 5-10% of players entitled to playing a high level metagame when anyone can troll with any race? Turns out ladder's function isn't to cater to players for practice in a tournament level metagame. Get over yourself......'Another think tank agrees with me.' You tell me that I'm pegging you for whatever and yet you'll agree with the base ignorance I've been trying to dispel for several pages, lol. What does this even mean? It's a bit unclear the point your trying to make. It doesn't really matter what your proposed solution is, it's fairly irrelevant in that random has virtually no impact on ladder inflation; like, it cant be willingly abused moreso than any other race can be. You don't specifically say remove random, but you ask all these rhetorical questions like "why does random need HR" which pretty much spells your intention to lobby for HR's removal. Statistics are well on my side, especially given that you base yours on what probably amounts to a hundred or two extremely vocal posters. Yet you gladly exaggerate the number with 'many' as opposed to 'some.' If we're going to be liberal on statistics as to who is more likely post their opinion on random, chances are if someone doesn't care or are fine with they won't post; there are hundreds of thousands of players not passionate enough to post about it. Even then, it's all irrelevant. In ALL issues regarding SC2, the amount of complaints simply isn't enough. Like I said, many posters aren't competent enough to understand the full ramifications on what amounts to an actual issue in SC2. Random especially, they have an emotionally invested bias as they themselves don't play random and don't enjoy losing to it. Theres a ton of shit people don't like to lose to, and even go so far to complain about.
I've stated my intentions multiple times, so there's no need to keep trying to assume that I simply want to remove random out of some personal grudge bred of ignorance.
I never made an intentional attempt to exaggerate the number of people who complain about random, I just said that there's been enough whining and enough of a stigma towards random and HR that it's worth examining why people whine about it. If anything, your the one who keeps trying to exaggerate how few people don't like HR when the fact that there is X number of people that don't like it is was the only point I was making in the first place and that X number of people, even if its a small percentage of the sc population/community, seems like enough to wonder why those people are so disgruntled.
My original quote was...
Have you stopped to think why are there so many people that don't like random, or HR specifically, instead of bashing people for incompetence?
At this point it wouldn't surprise me if you had chose to read it as,"EVERYBODY hates random, it has to be removed." Honestly, could you try any harder to nit pick and misinterpret questions instead of answering them?
I also never said "If anyone complains about something, we should listen to them and make what ever change they want", which apparently is what you thought I was saying. Mabey an example would help you understand what I'm trying to explain.
Let's say that sc2 is released today and with in a week forums everywhere are full of people complaining that mutalisk are too powerful vs all races in the game. As a game designer, It's not smart to ignore the complaints or blame players for their incompetence, or to make a knee jerk patch to the game. Instead, good game developers figure out the root of the complaints before reacting to them. Is the intended counter for mutalisk not filling that role effectively, or requires so much skill to be used effectively that most players can't use it? Are the counter for mutalisk present and effective, but players simply haven't figured out what or how to use those counters yet? Does your game not make it clear enough to the player what the counters to mutalisk are and could be made more apparent to the player in the form of better help menu's or tutorials, or was it indented that players wouldn't know the answer to their problem and for it to be figured out over time? Even if it's player's incompetence of dealing with something in the game, all whining that happens about a game or its features that happens with some amount of consistency is a sign of some problem, perceived or real from the players' perspective and requiring action or not from the developers, with the game.
So I ask you again, why do you think people complain about random(HR)? (I even left out the word "many" this time, as to not encourage you to go off on a tangent again.
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What ive never understoof is, that if there was no HR, I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be added in a patch. If there is no need to add it, and there is even the smallest need to take it away, it should be removed.
I have read the majority of this thread and have yet to find a single good reason being said for HR to be kept, and some small but true ones for it to be taken away.
Can someone please tell me a single good reason for it to be kept? I would honestly like to know. (Also, it seems from the posts here i kinda need to ask, but please dont reply with some HR-bashing or generic flame)
Cheers 
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i have yet to see a single good reason for it to be removed? are we reading the same thread?
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On January 07 2013 18:01 Rasper wrote:
I see Random mentioned as its own race many times in this thread, can I ask how? Surely its just the game throwing a dice for you at the start, nothing more.
It is acknowledged in the game as a fourth race. It's dealt with strategically as a fourth race. Even when compared to traditional races whom have their own unique units, it can be considered a race in that any other set of features which might be misconstrued as a race along the same parameters ultimately aren't displayed in the UI as a fourth race.
On January 08 2013 02:54 kill619 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 07 2013 08:27 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 04:49 kill619 wrote:You can't fix the match-making. There are three races. Like I said, the only way for ratings to be perfect is if everyone were equally skilled against each race, and played to their full ability with each and every game. The game isn't improved by removing random -- and if you were trying to spin this tangent into a point about improving ladder, removing random won't do anything. If there was a magic ladder rating system that could account for players lack of consistency in all match-ups it'd account for random's lack of consistency too, lol. I've proposed a way that could fix the problem with ladder multiple times and you've yet to explain why you, apparently, think it wouldn't work. And once again, I never said anything about wanting to remove random, simply to examine HR and all its positive and negative effects on the game. So many people? The only people who ever give a shit to go out of their way to bitch on a forum are a vocal minority. The people actually able to deal with random who couldn't care less out-number them by magnitudes in the hundreds. You have nothing that proves that statement. I said what I did based on the existence of plenty of threads, just like this one, about random, that you can find on plenty of different forums. A lot of those forums start off as or devolve into 1 group of people bashing random as cheesy/gimicky/stupid and another group bashing the first one for not being competent enough to just deal with HR and any other problems people have with random. Is SC2 now a democracy (of the most vocal players) where everyone votes for their favorite features, or can we acknowledge that players aren't qualified in many respects to have an opinion in an argument they have an invested bias in -- let alone aren't capable of even comprehending completely? It's painfully obvious you didn't read all of what you were responding to, or at the very least didn't understand it very well. It's fine if you didn't understand what I was saying, but to ignore it instead of asking me to explain what I was talking about is only gonna make this argument last way longer than it needs to. I'd recommend you re-read it and try again. Why are 5-10% of players entitled to playing a high level metagame when anyone can troll with any race? Turns out ladder's function isn't to cater to players for practice in a tournament level metagame. Get over yourself......'Another think tank agrees with me.' You tell me that I'm pegging you for whatever and yet you'll agree with the base ignorance I've been trying to dispel for several pages, lol. What does this even mean? It's a bit unclear the point your trying to make. It doesn't really matter what your proposed solution is, it's fairly irrelevant in that random has virtually no impact on ladder inflation; like, it cant be willingly abused moreso than any other race can be. You don't specifically say remove random, but you ask all these rhetorical questions like "why does random need HR" which pretty much spells your intention to lobby for HR's removal. Statistics are well on my side, especially given that you base yours on what probably amounts to a hundred or two extremely vocal posters. Yet you gladly exaggerate the number with 'many' as opposed to 'some.' If we're going to be liberal on statistics as to who is more likely post their opinion on random, chances are if someone doesn't care or are fine with they won't post; there are hundreds of thousands of players not passionate enough to post about it. Even then, it's all irrelevant. In ALL issues regarding SC2, the amount of complaints simply isn't enough. Like I said, many posters aren't competent enough to understand the full ramifications on what amounts to an actual issue in SC2. Random especially, they have an emotionally invested bias as they themselves don't play random and don't enjoy losing to it. Theres a ton of shit people don't like to lose to, and even go so far to complain about. I've stated my intentions multiple times, so there's no need to keep trying to assume that I simply want to remove random out of some personal grudge bred of ignorance. I never made an intentional attempt to exaggerate the number of people who complain about random, I just said that there's been enough whining and enough of a stigma towards random and HR that it's worth examining why people whine about it. If anything, your the one who keeps trying to exaggerate how few people don't like HR when the fact that there is X number of people that don't like it is was the only point I was making in the first place and that X number of people, even if its a small percentage of the sc population/community, seems like enough to wonder why those people are so disgruntled. My original quote was... Have you stopped to think why are there so many people that don't like random, or HR specifically, instead of bashing people for incompetence? At this point it wouldn't surprise me if you had chose to read it as,"EVERYBODY hates random, it has to be removed." Honestly, could you try any harder to nit pick and misinterpret questions instead of answering them? I also never said "If anyone complains about something, we should listen to them and make what ever change they want", which apparently is what you thought I was saying. Mabey an example would help you understand what I'm trying to explain. Let's say that sc2 is released today and with in a week forums everywhere are full of people complaining that mutalisk are too powerful vs all races in the game. As a game designer, It's not smart to ignore the complaints or blame players for their incompetence, or to make a knee jerk patch to the game. Instead, good game developers figure out the root of the complaints before reacting to them. Is the intended counter for mutalisk not filling that role effectively, or requires so much skill to be used effectively that most players can't use it? Are the counter for mutalisk present and effective, but players simply haven't figured out what or how to use those counters yet? Does your game not make it clear enough to the player what the counters to mutalisk are and could be made more apparent to the player in the form of better help menu's or tutorials, or was it indented that players wouldn't know the answer to their problem and for it to be figured out over time? Even if it's player's incompetence of dealing with something in the game, all whining that happens about a game or its features that happens with some amount of consistency is a sign of some problem, perceived or real from the players' perspective and requiring action or not from the developers, with the game. So I ask you again, why do you think people complain about random(HR)? (I even left out the word "many" this time, as to not encourage you to go off on a tangent again.
You make the inherent assumption Blizzard hasn't already quietly investigated and dismissed the complaints. Considering random has been complained about since beta, it is very likely the case. Regardless, many of the arguments in those complaints are, again, irrational, emotionally-invested bias spawned from incompetence or an inability to comprehend the actual problem when they lose to a random player. Others who bitch about practice misinterpret the ladder's function, and additionally misinterpret random's role in impeding that function.
As for helping players who don't understand the problem, Blizzard doesn't really offer anything beyond fundamental basics. Communities like TL offer help, and just as players get advice about dealing with mutalisks do they get advice about dealing with random. In both cases, advice exists, players have successfully dealt with both and moved on to higher leagues. They can't be helped if they're too stubborn to acknowledge the problem.
On January 08 2013 08:05 Squigly wrote:What ive never understoof is, that if there was no HR, I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be added in a patch. If there is no need to add it, and there is even the smallest need to take it away, it should be removed. I have read the majority of this thread and have yet to find a single good reason being said for HR to be kept, and some small but true ones for it to be taken away. Can someone please tell me a single good reason for it to be kept? I would honestly like to know. (Also, it seems from the posts here i kinda need to ask, but please dont reply with some HR-bashing or generic flame) Cheers
How convenient: in your opinion there is no reason for HR to remain, and you don't even provide a reason for it to be removed. You have the process mixed up: HR is currently in the game and will not be removed. You don't demand an argument that ASSUMES HR is flawed and will be removed. You bear the burden of offfering a convincing argument as to why years of precedence should be flipped on it's head to accommodate YOUR demand.
There are like 500 features that may have never have been implemented in a patch. You're literally claiming omniscience of Blizzard's intentions by suggesting HR was a mistake. Should I just run down the list of BW ported features where we pose the hypothetical of any random idea not being in the game from the beginning and how it'd be added retroactively, or can you come up with a less vague argument that actually refutes HR? It's kinda funny because they had the option of removing HR in SC2 ontop of all of the other BW features they cut and they didn't. They could still do it in HotS or LotV too. Convenient that you're making it up as you go.
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RD, you are my hero for combating the trolls.
I have played every ladder game, since release day, as random. Never have I chosen a race. Why? Initialy because I couldn't decide on which race I wanted to play, and then later because I learned that b.net is full of window licking retards who copy their strats from teamliquid.net or some other forum and then immediately jump on those forums crying when they lose. Granted, that isn't all of the players on b.net, but from play experince, alot of players copy their strats from popular and well known meta-game strats. This cookie cutting mindset is the downfall of those players, and even the pro players. Is it any wonder that pro's who innovate dominate everyone else? Then that innovation becomes standard, and then someone else innovates and then dominates the scene until all the cookie cutting retards copy them. Rinse, repeat.
What this thread is, at it's heart, is a vocal minority who are crying to their mommy forums that their perfect unbeatable strat they copied from this very forum isn't as effective against random because they could be any race. Thus, their solution to their inability to not be a cookie cutting retard is to cry for blizzard to change a 18 year old feature so that the game will show what the random player's race is.
I'll give these posters a hint: You lack any legitimacy, as none of you can cite a single arguement other than it hurts your pre-planned vsX race strat.
My solution to you posters is to stop licking your monitor, close teamliquid, and figure out your own strategy that depends on your skill rather than you getting that 15th drone 2 seconds faster than your opponent. Of course, to do that requires those players to stop crying.
Winners don't cry. Only whiners cry. Choose which you would rather be, a winner or a whiner.
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On January 08 2013 08:10 dAPhREAk wrote:
i have yet to see a single good reason for it to be removed? are we reading the same thread?
You know what, I'm starting to wonder the same thing. Maybe we should talk amongst ourselves for a bit to make sure we are processing all of this the same way. Then, once we are sure, have another stab at getting our points across to what I will very loosely describe as 'our learned opponents'.
I know you to be a man of not inconsiderable intellect dAPhREAk so I will use you as a baseline.
On January 08 2013 02:54 kill619 wrote:
My original quote was...
Have you stopped to think why are there so many people that don't like random, or HR specifically, instead of bashing people for incompetence?
So straight off I see argumentum ad populum. Since I don't trust anything this guy says anymore I'm not going to trust the assertion that there are so many people. Basically, I see one 'fact' that he made up.
I was surprised enough that he was ballsy enough to quote himself saying this, but to follow up with this outrage about being misunderstood...
On January 08 2013 02:54 kill619 wrote:
At this point it wouldn't surprise me if you had chose to read it as,"EVERYBODY hates random, it has to be removed." Honestly, could you try any harder to nit pick and misinterpret questions instead of answering them?
So if he is justifiably outraged, then "EVERYBODY hates random" and "so many people that don't like random" are light years apart, polar opposites, mutally exclusive even.
As you read this dAPhREAk, do you consider his outrage justified?
Regarding reasons for hidden random to be removed, and I haven't seen any either, what would such reasons look like?
- Compelling evidence that Random as a percentage of players, x%, is disproportionately highly represented, 2x%, in Masters, GM and tournament results.
- A replay pack, incontrovertible in integrity, from these complainers proving that for every game they lost to a Random player, but for the fact they lacked race information at the beginning they would have won. Is every too harsh? Perhaps 60%?
- Furthermore, given a replay pack of all games in a month, a portion vs Random, x%, a portion where Random rolled one of these much cited insta-win matchups, (x*0.33)%, and the threshold we accept for losses stemming only from hidden random (x*0.33*0.6) this number of imbalanced losses could be ranked against similar imbalances that were patched and prioritised accordingly. Everything from 5 Rax Reaper to 4 gate is pretty well documented so all they would have to prove is that their number > four fifths of sweet fuck all.
Anyway, I'm seriously questioning reality right now dAPhREAk, so I would be delighted to read your opinions on the matter. For our learned opponents, the adults need to talk for a while, we'll be back with you shortly.
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dude, i'm a dumbass. and even as a dumbass i know that any alleged "advantage" from being random is negligible at best. dont be dumber than the dumbass people!
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Oh noes, I can't do my build copied from Bomber/ DRG/ Parting. I hate random. Unlike me they have no skillz.
They only win cause they are cheeser and can't play macro gamez. They only care for winz and unlike me, I want to improve and get out my Bronze/ Silver/ Gold/ Plat league.
So I will cheese them with my 10 pool/ 4 gate/ 2 rax because these gamez are a waste of time and not skillz. They got what they deserved those cheesing randoms! Easy win for me cos I have skill!
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Ok, that's what I thought. But they are just so persistent I needed to check.
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wow, just go 14 pool 16 hatch every game. -_-
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This is my beef with random players:
Basically, nobody places in the money at tournaments, with random. It's insanely hard to have the mechanics of 3 races while simultaneously having the knowledge of how to play 9 different match-ups. Match-up knowledge is further compounded by specific tactics and building placements for each different map, even with significant overlap for the tactics. So when they play games in tournaments and games go long against good opponents, that mechanical failure really takes its toll. So for those of us who play ladder games in preparation for tournaments, what good are random opponents? Why would I learn a 4th match-up, when I could just hit F10 and End Game and then search another game instead? Until random players start placing well at tournaments, playing random isn't a strategy anyone needs to prepare against.
When it comes to mechanics, usually, random players are really good at one race, decent at another race, and mediocre to bad at the third race. So they make terrible practice partners. In theory, it seems great, since they know enough about all 3 races to play any match-up I want! But, in reality, they generally can only help with one match-up--and never as well as someone who decided to stick to one race for the sake of fundamentals and deeper match-up understanding.
Needless to say, this leads me to dealing with random players on the ladder, in 3 simple ways, depending on how bad the map is for scouting cheese, and how much I feel like actually playing the game out:
1. I leave the game immediately and don't waste any more of my time.
2. I stay in the game, but go AFK and make myself a sandwich. Playing against random players is such a waste of time, from a practice standpoint, that sometimes I like to return the favor and waste some of their time. I won't sit there and hide farms or anything, but if I have something to do away from the computer, this is usually an opportunity to do so.
3. If I really feel like playing, and the map is good for the sake of scouting cheese/defending it, I'll 13 gate-->scout, 15 gas, 16 pylon, 18 core+zealot, and if I see cheese I build a second gate and boost units. Most cheeses lose to good scouting and 2 gateways pumping units. Most econ cheeses can be handled by pressure and a WG timing follow-up. And if they play a standard game, I either go for drops or for Phoenixes, and I multitask them as much as possible...because someone who plays 3 different races will inevitably fall apart with his macro when he's under a lot of pressure in multiple locations.
Mostly, it's #1, unless I really want to get myself a sandwich....
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On January 08 2013 23:10 ineversmile wrote:
This is my beef with random players:
Basically, nobody places in the money at tournaments, with random. It's insanely hard to have the mechanics of 3 races while simultaneously having the knowledge of how to play 9 different match-ups. Match-up knowledge is further compounded by specific tactics and building placements for each different map, even with significant overlap for the tactics. So when they play games in tournaments and games go long against good opponents, that mechanical failure really takes its toll. So for those of us who play ladder games in preparation for tournaments, what good are random opponents? Why would I learn a 4th match-up, when I could just hit F10 and End Game and then search another game instead? Until random players start placing well at tournaments, playing random isn't a strategy anyone needs to prepare against.
When it comes to mechanics, usually, random players are really good at one race, decent at another race, and mediocre to bad at the third race. So they make terrible practice partners. In theory, it seems great, since they know enough about all 3 races to play any match-up I want! But, in reality, they generally can only help with one match-up--and never as well as someone who decided to stick to one race for the sake of fundamentals and deeper match-up understanding.
Needless to say, this leads me to dealing with random players on the ladder, in 3 simple ways, depending on how bad the map is for scouting cheese, and how much I feel like actually playing the game out:
1. I leave the game immediately and don't waste any more of my time.
2. I stay in the game, but go AFK and make myself a sandwich. Playing against random players is such a waste of time, from a practice standpoint, that sometimes I like to return the favor and waste some of their time. I won't sit there and hide farms or anything, but if I have something to do away from the computer, this is usually an opportunity to do so.
3. If I really feel like playing, and the map is good for the sake of scouting cheese/defending it, I'll 13 gate-->scout, 15 gas, 16 pylon, 18 core+zealot, and if I see cheese I build a second gate and boost units. Most cheeses lose to good scouting and 2 gateways pumping units. Most econ cheeses can be handled by pressure and a WG timing follow-up. And if they play a standard game, I either go for drops or for Phoenixes, and I multitask them as much as possible...because someone who plays 3 different races will inevitably fall apart with his macro when he's under a lot of pressure in multiple locations.
Mostly, it's #1, unless I really want to get myself a sandwich....
I wouldn't have cared to comment until you mention wasting a random player's time as if to assume his intentions are the same as yours; to practice a high level metagame in a ladder not intended for practicing within a tournament level metagame. Yet, a random player is probably either is oblivious to it, is aware of the difficulty playing random and plays for fun, or generally doesn't care either way, but all three share the common goal of ascending ladder exclusively, and you facilitate that by giving them wins. But you're wasting their time don't worry; you got them there.
Do you also leave when you see blind pool first, or gas after rax?
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On January 18 2012 18:42 Magus.421 wrote:
Hi everyone.
I personally dislike when i'm against a random player. Because i just can't do an usual opening.
In addition, many random players just cheese/all-in (i don't know why). I encounter very few random players on the ladder, but they all all-in.
So when i'm facing a random player, i just go 7RR or 6pool. And i feel like "what a useless game ...".
Yesterday, i did a 7RR and the random player was 6 pooling. 6 pool VS 7RR, what a game ^^
How do you play against random players on the ladder ?
First I would like to state I am a random player and I don't all in, well at least in more than 90% of the times. I don't think you are correct and I think you are just mad because you might have lost some games due to cheese or rush.
Secondly, if you feel rush is the answer you are wrong. As a Master you won't succeed if you don't survive or scout a standard cheese. While playing zerg, in long distances you can even go 14 hatch and 14 pool still surviving with no problem.
It would be more appropriated if you could correct your original post or at least specify that in your games players did that to you, because your sentence is false.
By the way, it is harder to play 3 races than only one. So don't think it's easy to play random!
Best of luck in the future and many good games.
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On January 08 2013 23:10 ineversmile wrote:
This is my beef with random players:
Basically, nobody places in the money at tournaments, with random. It's insanely hard to have the mechanics of 3 races while simultaneously having the knowledge of how to play 9 different match-ups. Match-up knowledge is further compounded by specific tactics and building placements for each different map, even with significant overlap for the tactics. So when they play games in tournaments and games go long against good opponents, that mechanical failure really takes its toll. So for those of us who play ladder games in preparation for tournaments, what good are random opponents? Why would I learn a 4th match-up, when I could just hit F10 and End Game and then search another game instead? Until random players start placing well at tournaments, playing random isn't a strategy anyone needs to prepare against.
When it comes to mechanics, usually, random players are really good at one race, decent at another race, and mediocre to bad at the third race. So they make terrible practice partners. In theory, it seems great, since they know enough about all 3 races to play any match-up I want! But, in reality, they generally can only help with one match-up--and never as well as someone who decided to stick to one race for the sake of fundamentals and deeper match-up understanding.
Needless to say, this leads me to dealing with random players on the ladder, in 3 simple ways, depending on how bad the map is for scouting cheese, and how much I feel like actually playing the game out:
1. I leave the game immediately and don't waste any more of my time.
2. I stay in the game, but go AFK and make myself a sandwich. Playing against random players is such a waste of time, from a practice standpoint, that sometimes I like to return the favor and waste some of their time. I won't sit there and hide farms or anything, but if I have something to do away from the computer, this is usually an opportunity to do so.
3. If I really feel like playing, and the map is good for the sake of scouting cheese/defending it, I'll 13 gate-->scout, 15 gas, 16 pylon, 18 core+zealot, and if I see cheese I build a second gate and boost units. Most cheeses lose to good scouting and 2 gateways pumping units. Most econ cheeses can be handled by pressure and a WG timing follow-up. And if they play a standard game, I either go for drops or for Phoenixes, and I multitask them as much as possible...because someone who plays 3 different races will inevitably fall apart with his macro when he's under a lot of pressure in multiple locations.
Mostly, it's #1, unless I really want to get myself a sandwich....
4. i lose and then whine about it in the forums.
it may surprise some people, but other people play the game for fun and not to get better or practice. having the random function is fun for me both from the perspective of using it myself, and having my opponent use it. i know people like to use their cookie-cutter builds and do the same thing over and over like machines, but i like a little variety in my life.
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On January 08 2013 23:10 ineversmile wrote:
Why would I learn a 4th match-up, when I could just hit F10 and End Game and then search another game instead?
1. I leave the game immediately and don't waste any more of my time.
2. I stay in the game, but go AFK and make myself a sandwich. Playing against random players is such a waste of time, from a practice standpoint, that sometimes I like to return the favor and waste some of their time. I won't sit there and hide farms or anything, but if I have something to do away from the computer, this is usually an opportunity to do so.
Mostly, it's #1, unless I really want to get myself a sandwich....
You just admitted you get butt-hurt over playing randoms. So butt-hurt that you feel spiteful enough to go AFK wasting your opponents time. There's is nothing that you can possibly say that can counter the complete cowardice and subsequent five-year-old child tantrum that you throw in your hurt feelings that took something so small as for a Random player to pop up for you to whimper and hide. I hope you seriously work through your internal issues for the sake of your mental health
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Initially in the first seasons i played terran and i got to high masters 1v1 with that race, but after a while i wanted to experiment the whole of what Starcraft 2 had to offer, so i started playing random. Playing other races only in multiplayer games so far had me drop to diamond at 1v1, where i had the time to practice and learn specific matchups. So, for the last 4 or 5 seasons (lost count of them all lol) i played in masters as a random.
Now, as i said, i started playing as random because i wanted to learn all the race specific mechanics and matchups, and overall benefit from the SC 2 experience not only partially, like i felt it was when i played only terran. Yes, it's hard to learn it all, master matchups, take into account some map specific strategies etc. But so what? For me is fun, and it's even less harder then playing one race and getting into GM.
So i really, but i mean, i REALLY DON'T understand why people whine about this so much... Because of the difficulty in playing a random and adapting your strat? Well, don't you play this game in the first place because you want a challenge? Because you want to go against better and better opponents, you want to progess through the leagues? If you want 100% wins and easy games why don't you stay in bronze? (Oh, some really do that, i forgot) Or if you don't and you just play for fun, well, this is FUN Imagine how rare it is when i play vs another random in masters and the fun and challenge we both have. I remember one game like that turned into a classic TvT, lasting almost one hour (real time).
Now, a good player must mix and be proficient at both cheese, macro and allins. Now, the problem is that all expect randoms to cheese or do it themselves out of frustration, so even if i see a cool cheese on the GSL and want to give it a try, i will still need to play standard. Cheesing randoms (not blaming them in any way, is their choice and their style of play, so i respect that and the fun they have) won't probably make it higher than diamond, as the maps we have now are so different that those of season 1, making cheeses and allins much more difficult. But if you are really scared of a 6 pool or whatever, just scout at 9 and you'll be fine, if you are a good solid player, in the long run you should get the advantage on the random player. It's his choice to try and master all the matchups so you can exploit that weakness instead of rage quiting or being afk.
I've been faced with those reactions myself on the ladder, from people quiting the second the match started, making worker rushes, silly cheeses or them raging at me from the start or only after losing. Now why would someone do that? I guess is has nothing to do with the random situation in fact, as the same people who cry about this and rage on ladder are the same that do it anyway after they lose to a regular opponent or whine about some race being op and theirs being nerfed all the time...
I probably won't get to GM by playing random, but at least i have fun while i play, i even got to ro8 in a tournament once by doing so (even beating 2 gm's in the process) and i got all i expected from this game. Why don't you guys try to do the same? Also, on a side note, i don't see any real professionals complaining about this, so your random-whine posts must look to them what bronzies cry for helps about the invincible 4 gate or 6 pool seem to you.
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Wow ... i can't believe after an entire year my topic is still here o_O
Well ... so, after one year, here my thoughts :
There's not many random players on bnet. I'm a master player on europe server, and according to sc2ranks ( http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/eu/1/all ), there's only 5% of random player. So i encounter a random player every 20 games (more or less).
I still think games against a random player are "trash". Because of 3 things :
* I don't play on the ladder to win. I don't play on the ladder to be high ranked. I don't care of that. I play on the ladder to train. I agree with people when they say "random is just a 4th race". The problem is that i just never encounter a random player when i play a tournament or an online competition. So i just feel that training against a random player is pointless.
* Every random player i encounter just cheese / all-in. I KNOW that every single random player on this forum never all-in. You all play macro game and i'm very glad for you. I pray very hard so you can all come in the europe master league so i can play against you. But at the moment, all random player on the europe master league just cheese and i can't do anything against that. The random "race" just make the cheeses overpowered.
"It's hard to play 3 races" : I think it's true when you play a macro game. But even me, with a gold level in protoss, i can pylon block + canon rush a master Zerg. So this statement can't be true in the ladder for me.
* Ask the race ? Unfortunaly, most of the time, the opponent just lie on his race. So i can't believe the answer.
With all of that, i still think that a game against a random player is useless. But there's no big deal, there's only 5% of random player in my league. We can't do anything against that.
If in the future we see many more random player in competition, maybe it will become useful to train against random players on the ladder.
But, i definitively think the ladder is just the worst place for encountering a random player. If i encounter a random player in a competition in a Bo3, i think it will be more "balanced". But the Bo1 format of the ladder is not a really good thing for the balance. But it's not limited to the random players.
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Unfortunately the game isn't solely about the 2% who train for tournaments or the 10% who play 20 games a day hopeing to get to masters it's about everyone and that includes the majority of people who play because they enjoy the game and enjoy the ladder.
Using ladder for tournament practice is inefficient and you're not going to be winning GSL any time soon that way.
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On January 12 2013 21:18 Magus.421 wrote:Wow ... i can't believe after an entire year my topic is still here o_O Well ... so, after one year, here my thoughts : There's not many random players on bnet. I'm a master player on europe server, and according to sc2ranks ( http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/eu/1/all ), there's only 5% of random player. So i encounter a random player every 20 games (more or less). I still think games against a random player are "trash". Because of 3 things : * I don't play on the ladder to win. I don't play on the ladder to be high ranked. I don't care of that. I play on the ladder to train. I agree with people when they say "random is just a 4th race". The problem is that i just never encounter a random player when i play a tournament or an online competition. So i just feel that training against a random player is pointless. * Every random player i encounter just cheese / all-in. I KNOW that every single random player on this forum never all-in. You all play macro game and i'm very glad for you. I pray very hard so you can all come in the europe master league so i can't play against you. But at the moment, all random player on the europe master league just cheese and i can't do anything against that. The random "race" just make the cheeses overpowered. "It's hard to play 3 races" : I think it's true when you play a macro game. But even me, with a gold level in protoss, i can pylon block + canon rush a master Zerg. So this statement can't be true in the ladder for me. * Ask the race ? Unfortunaly, most of the time, the opponent just lie on his race. So i can't believe the answer. With all of that, i still think that a game against a random player is useless. But there's no big deal, there's only 5% of random player in my league. We can't do anything against that. If in the future we see many more random player in competition, maybe it will become useful to train against random players on the ladder. But, i definitively think the ladder is just the worst place for encountering a random player. If i encounter a random player in a competition in a Bo3, i think it will be more "balanced". But the Bo1 format of the ladder is not a really good thing for the balance. But it's not limited to the random players.
You just put my opinion about random players in the words i was looking for,
funnily i play very often against randoms, which sucks, and it doesn´t make sense why blizzard wouldn´t implement that the race the random player has get´s revealed when the game starts.
There´s no reason why they don´t have it in the game.
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On January 12 2013 22:27 DKR wrote:
Unfortunately the game isn't solely about the 2% who train for tournaments or the 10% who play 20 games a day hopeing to get to masters it's about everyone and that includes the majority of people who play because they enjoy the game and enjoy the ladder.
Using ladder for tournament practice is inefficient and you're not going to be winning GSL any time soon that way.
I'm not talking about gsl or anything else like that :D I play "little" online competition. No big cash prize, no big competition, and rarerly "lan" competition. But i really don't "play ladder to just play ladder".
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EPT
