|
People dont seem to realize the silliness of having to account for 4g, Korean 4g, 6Pool, Hatch first, etc. This game is random enough when its just vs 1 race. Versus random it just gets worse. Nobody benefits.
|
On January 18 2012 18:59 snexwang wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 18:42 Magus.421 wrote:How do you play against random players on the ladder ? First, I swear out loud to myself because random players are skill-less fucking faggots who can die in a fire. Then, once I'm done with my short profanity session, I proceed to play hatch first. If I scout protoss or a zerg running an early pool opening, I'll cancel the hatch and throw down my pool. The game then proceeds as normal. If the random player wins, it was only because he chose random and hit me with an all in. If I win, it was obviously because I'm just the better player and my opponent should never hope to ever beat me because they'll never be on my level (because they chose random).  + Show Spoiler +DISCLAIMER: This is a joke post (which should be obvious, but this is the internet). Before you search for my profile on bnet, I am aware of the fact that I am terrible at the game. Put down your pitchfork.
Welcome to the Strategy forum. Please leave your 'skill-less fucking faggots' jokes about Random players outside. This is about discussing strategy.
EDIT: I don't agree with that strat either. Let's assume you're on say... a 4 player map, the final base you scout is where your Protoss opponent is, and it's a ZvR. By the time you scouted him, your hatch is already done and he has 3 pylons blocking your ramp ready to cannon the fuck out of it.
Basically, you cannot 15 hatch in ZvR on a large 4 player map. There's too much risk involved. Even then if you scout at a time where you can cancel the hatchery, you've just lost 75 Minerals and are technically behind. A forge fast expand isn't the most economical PvZ opening but it already is safe and economic as fuck. The only time he'd be making a significant investment is in cannon rushing you, which would be a guarantee if you're going 15 hatch.
The only time cancelling the hatch really feels appropriate is if you scout a 6 pool, 8 pool or 10 pool and it turns out to be a ZvZ. This will let you throw down a Spawning Pool immediately, micro with drones against the lings, drones and spines that are probably incoming, and get lings out on a better economy. Bear in mind that 16 drones can probably take on 6 - 8 lings favourably but you have to do damage immediately else he will just overpower and rape you. He can also kite your drones all day long on creep. It should only be done to save time and when you can put say... 3 - 4 drones on each Spine Crawler that's popping up.
|
On January 07 2013 02:00 Latringuden wrote:
You can't justify it to be in the game because you don't view it as a different race from p/t/z. It's a forth race with it's own openings, mechanics, challange, incentive and gameplay. View it as such and find what you think is the proper way of dealing with the race, Random. It shouldn't be limiting, it should be a test on how well you know and play that specific match up (as with any other race).
It's not forth race. It's either T, P and Z, with information advantage at beginning and no downside other than the players own lacking skill level and spawning as Terran every now and then. Game shouldn't be handicapped in any way. If random would show it's race at the start, every random player would likely drop a bit in MMR, so what? Atleast you'd be playing legit matchups and not ruining 5-10% of other players games as they can't practice their to-go builds against certain race.
|
On January 07 2013 02:28 Ogww wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 02:00 Latringuden wrote:
You can't justify it to be in the game because you don't view it as a different race from p/t/z. It's a forth race with it's own openings, mechanics, challange, incentive and gameplay. View it as such and find what you think is the proper way of dealing with the race, Random. It shouldn't be limiting, it should be a test on how well you know and play that specific match up (as with any other race). It's not forth race. It's either T, P and Z, with information advantage at beginning and no downside other than the players own lacking skill level and spawning as Terran every now and then. Game shouldn't be handicapped in any way. If random would show it's race at the start, every random player would likely drop a bit in MMR, so what? Atleast you'd be playing legit matchups and not ruining 5-10% of other players games as they can't practice their to-go builds against certain race.
If it has its own metagame surrounding it, I'd consider it a 'fourth race' even if it's a clusterfuck of all three races thrown at you randomly.
|
On January 07 2013 02:28 Ogww wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 02:00 Latringuden wrote:
You can't justify it to be in the game because you don't view it as a different race from p/t/z. It's a forth race with it's own openings, mechanics, challange, incentive and gameplay. View it as such and find what you think is the proper way of dealing with the race, Random. It shouldn't be limiting, it should be a test on how well you know and play that specific match up (as with any other race). It's not forth race. It's either T, P and Z, with information advantage at beginning and no downside other than the players own lacking skill level and spawning as Terran every now and then. Game shouldn't be handicapped in any way. If random would show it's race at the start, every random player would likely drop a bit in MMR, so what? Atleast you'd be playing legit matchups and not ruining 5-10% of other players games as they can't practice their to-go builds against certain race.
Pretty much what I was gonna say. Also
From Latringuden
And the other one has the un-even level of skill since he/she will be better at any given matchup (in theory).
That theory relies on the being able to predict the consistency of player mmr not being accurate relative to a match up specific mmr.
From Clbull
If it has its own metagame surrounding it, I'd consider it a 'fourth race' even if it's a clusterfuck of all three races thrown at you randomly.
Defining a race as something that has a metagame a surrounding it is an odd way of going about it. By that logic, there's a near infinite number of "races". There are metagames for builds and their follow ups, compositions, maps, players, etc.
|
On January 07 2013 02:40 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 02:28 Ogww wrote:On January 07 2013 02:00 Latringuden wrote:
You can't justify it to be in the game because you don't view it as a different race from p/t/z. It's a forth race with it's own openings, mechanics, challange, incentive and gameplay. View it as such and find what you think is the proper way of dealing with the race, Random. It shouldn't be limiting, it should be a test on how well you know and play that specific match up (as with any other race). It's not forth race. It's either T, P and Z, with information advantage at beginning and no downside other than the players own lacking skill level and spawning as Terran every now and then. Game shouldn't be handicapped in any way. If random would show it's race at the start, every random player would likely drop a bit in MMR, so what? Atleast you'd be playing legit matchups and not ruining 5-10% of other players games as they can't practice their to-go builds against certain race. If it has its own metagame surrounding it, I'd consider it a 'fourth race' even if it's a clusterfuck of all three races thrown at you randomly.
Whether you call it a fourth race or not, there is no reasonable argument why it shouldnt be removed.
|
On January 07 2013 00:20 kill619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 22:54 rd wrote:On January 06 2013 22:20 kill619 wrote:On January 06 2013 20:35 rd wrote:On January 06 2013 14:09 AirbladeOrange wrote:On January 06 2013 12:43 dAPhREAk wrote:
not really baiting. just saying that the whole idea that there is a "huge advantage" to playing random, and the fact that nobody who plays this game for a living plays random do not make sense. Maybe the advantage one gets from playing random is greatly diminished the more skilled player someone is. And that skill level asymptotes at high masters-GM where random drops off entirely. In the context of high level play, theres still a huge capacity to outplay your opponent. Yet, despite random's advantage, it is virtually extinct at the top of the ladder in an environment it supposedly thrives in. On January 06 2013 17:47 kill619 wrote:On January 06 2013 01:51 rd wrote:On January 05 2013 23:47 kill619 wrote:On January 05 2013 19:55 rd wrote:On January 05 2013 13:02 kill619 wrote:On January 05 2013 09:30 rd wrote:
[quote]
That's a very general issue with match-making though, lol. When you queue up against the random player who's as good as you, you're basically queueing against a slightly favored opponent. You're just as likely to hit the random whos on par with you in a match-up as you are hitting up a Terran who is simply a better player -- he doesn't even have to be rated higher either. Either way, there are way too few random players to dent the ladder's rating inflation. The entirety of the match-making rating system is shaken by much more common abuses of rating inflation/deflation: You could be a Zerg with a sick ZvP but terrible ZvT. Any protoss you fight will get stomped as your MMR is held back by the fact you lose more often than normal to Terran. You could simply be smurfing and purposefully tanking your MMR to stomp lowbies. MMR inflation is pretty normal, and random is by far one of the most benign forms of it. In a game with multiple races you can't expect people to be equally competent against all three of them -- let alone be trusted to exert their full effort and achieve their proper rating.
Random doesn't really have any advantages in an even rating setting. If it were a perfect world maybe randoms would be slightly better, but the nature of ladder means you will never always have an even match-up with ANY race; random included. Theres nothing wrong with random in a competitive setting where skill levels vary pretty wildly. You generally break even at equal ratings, and you have occasional favored for and against with all races including random. The only time random is really affected by ladder is when the skill levels asymptote at top ratings and random players can no longer win by being better than their opponent.
Every race has early game advantages, but because they're advantages of a traditional race it's okay -- fuck random. Random exists with hidden races. It's not the other way around. Non-random players bear the burden that it's a material fact of life; you dont simply wish it gone. You can literally take that exact idea and strawman it to oblivion with ANYTHING in starcraft 2 that isn't fun: Ling run-by's are fun for zerg at the expense of Terran and Protoss, etc. SC2 is a game of solving problems. Problems aren't always fun. If you don't enjoy brick walls, SC2 probably isn't for you. 1.Sure, I'd agree that's a problem with the match making system that I would also argue is made worst by having random, in any form, as an option, but for the sake of staying on topic lets just assume that were talking about a RvX game where no matter what match up gets rolled that the Random player is of the same skill level as his opponent, seeing as how that't the only way you could balance Starcraft and it's match making system based on player skill.(if were gonna keep talking about this) 2. "Random doesn't really have any advantages in an even rating setting" I don't even know where you stand on this any more. "The advantage wasn't given to them because they deserved it" "The race being hidden balances this out just a little to alleviate the difficulty." "You suggest random to be removed as it currently functions, i.e. remove the hidden race mechanic; the only thing that makes random remotely advantageous" "All of your complaints bring up the advantages of playing random when the disadvantages massively overwhelm them." "The advantage they gain from this balances (not really) the fact that random is ridiculously difficult and unviable." These are all things quoted directly from you in the past page of this thread. If you don't think the problem exist, I play terran but iirc there are some problems with ZvR and PvR openings that have talked about plenty of times before, probably even in this thread. If you do think it exist, then welcome back to the conversation. There's an advantage, also acting as an incentive, to the race option Random in the form of hiding the Random players race. The advantage isn't enough to matter at the highest skill levels, but it's still enough to alter how matches are played and their outcomes just about every where else. From the player perspective, it creates trolls who play random to abuse the lack of information a non-Random opponent suffers from and introduces an element of chance into an otherwise very skill driven game. By the way, I'm not saying that every person playing random is doing so to abuse it, but that there are players who purposely opt to not reveal their race, abuse their opponents lack of information, and bm opponents for the advantage that was given to them by the game hiding their race. From the match making perspective, It gives random players the option to inflate their mmr by winning games, with the help of the advantage given to them, against opponents that they may not have been capable of beating if both players had had the the same information of each others race at the very beginning of the game. So why does it exist? The only answer that makes any sense is that it's suppose to be an incentive to players to play mulitplayer in a more challenging way than picking their own race, but even in that case why do you need an incentive attched to playing random and, if it's really necessary incentivise playing random, why would make that incentive something as game altering as hiding one players race? More or better portriats, decals, just about anything cosmetic really, getting more ladder point for wins, etc. would have made for fine incentives without messing with other players experience of the multiplayer. I just don't understand why they would make this decision. You're mixing up three separate ideas. Let me summarize my statements: Even rating =/= even skill level. Random's MMR gets slightly inflated by the fact the race is hidden, so a random player is on average worse at an even rating, but has an equal chance to win. At an even skill level they're likely favored just a little in rating. This interaction only exists in the lower leagues because everyone has the capacity to have such hugely varying skill differences -- this is infinitely more impactful than ANY advantage one particular race can offer. When you get to high levels the random player can no longer outplay opponents to the extent he did before; the advantage of the hidden race is made all but irrelevant. Ladder inflation isn't a problem as much as it's a simple fact of life on ladder. It's not an issue of random, it's just the nature of how the ladder attempts to gauge skill. If theres a problem at all it's with the ladder system itself, and you'll probably never get a system more accurate with multiple races (keyword: multiple races cause inflation not random). You're also taking a bunch of issues that are general to the ladder and the playerbase and associating it with random, and then presumptuously touting random as the problem behind it. ALL races have trolls; ALL races have advantages that incentivize playing them; ALL races have portraits and decals; ALL races are capable of being played for fun -- and given how few random players there are, random represents the least trolls of any race. Baseless complaints amount to evidence only of an issue with a player who can't deal with random and not random itself. Stop acknowledging them, lol. Seriously. Should EVERY complaint be acknowledged as an issue of the game? You have yet to prove anything other than random is irrelevant -- but certainly not an issue. Random's MMR gets slightly inflated by the fact the race is hidden, so a random player is on average worse at an even rating Saying it's inflated because of hidden race(HR) assumes that a Random player is benefiting from their advantage and saying that a random player of even rating is, on average, worse than their opponent(ie. not a 50% chance of winning) assumes that that same player would decide to stop using their advantage, despite it still being available to them. The first assumption can be made, but the second can't, at the very least not simultaneously. Unless I'm misinterpreting you and your referring to the players whose mmr will be inflated to the threshold of mmr's where players' skill negates the advantage, which I would predict is still well above the majority of the 1v1 population on any server, and thus worth looking into if not to make any changes to random at least understand why it exists with HR. That aside, I did and still do agree with you that there is a problem with the match making system, but would go further to say that random, HR or not, exacerbates the problem. Hypothesizing that if the problem exist because of how much variance in skill one account can have in 3(4) match ups as a race picker, then the option of random having 9(12) allows for more variance in skill that one's rank has to attempt to account for. It creates a larger uncertainty(Standard deviation) for your mmr than what already exist if the player were only playing one race, resulting in less evenly skilled matches and a less effective match making system. HR, however, doesn't have much to do the topic,as interesting a topic it is. When HR is thrown in to the equation, as you said, it inflates the average rank of random players up until an unspecified "high level of play". A sort of icing on the cake that is a match making system that still has room for improvement. The match making probably could have been designed in such a way that an account is given an mmr for every specific match up in the game(Random not included) and use that mmr, for race pickers and random players,to be used for match making. I suppose my troll argument is based on the fact that HR gives you the opportunity to win games vs players you wouldn't be able to beat without it and the assumption, imo a safe one but still one that doesn't have any proof, that most players are more annoyed and flustered by bm during or after losing than they are by listening to whine after beating a bm'er. I'll concede that point. I'm not out to prove anything or bash anyone, just interested in why HR exist. If it's there to be a fun and different way to play the game, why introduce the mechanic to ranked match-making and force people who are, can be somewhat assumed if there playing ranked making, looking to play the most competitive and skill based mode multiplayer has to offer to deal with HR? It's not like random suddenly becomes pointless to play if the races where revealed, there are plenty of random players who already willingly reveal their race. There are so many reasons that exist outside of the HR advantage for wanting to play random, so if it's suppose to be purely an incentive to play as random I don't really understand that either. Like I said a few post ago, there are so many other incentives that could have been used that wouldn't alter how the game functions. What's the need for an incentive to play random anyway? Even if they went about it in such a way that didn't affect game play or the ranking system, what to be gained from doing exactly? What's to be gained by trying to get more people to play random? I don't see the motive behind all of it. Theres no assumption at all: They have the advantage and utilize it, otherwise they'd have to be significantly better (not at a specific match-up but all-round) to fight on par with a worse opponent at an even rating. But none of that has anything to do with why HR exists. HR has always been on random and it simply worked out the way it does now. It wasn't a calculated decision after observation of random on ladder (or maybe it was, but I highly doubt it). There could be 30% of players playing random and it wouldn't have any effect on the ladder's inflation The system itself can't accurately pin a player to their rating with multiple races and create perfectly even matches; nor will it ever. Ladder wasn't made to create a high level competitive environment akin to tournament level metagames. Even without random, ladder has always had its own metagame. If someone actually has ambitions to reach the top, then random is by far the least of their problems -- yet like all problems, random has a capacity to be solved and defeated consistently at even ratings. Players don't have the freedom to complain how they'd like that altered to their advantage; just an opinion on whether they personally like it. You don't walk into a PvZ and ignore the threat of speedlings, refuse to simcity, and then turn around and bitch when you lose your workers to a run-by because speedlings alter the way a protoss prefers to function. It's a ridiculous point that exhumes entitlement. You're also speaking for a very small vocal minority, who have a legitimate bias when random is outnumbered massively in SC2. And incentives? A player that likes making tons of cheap units is incentivized to play zerg. A player that likes to build gigantic deathballs is generally more interested in protoss. SC2 is a game of strength and weaknesses; you simply can't begrudge random because it has strengths of it's own too, citing how random shouldn't be offered 'incentives' to play. If they really wanted to give an incentive to play random they'd buff it. It's just how it is. Theres no further logic then that. Every single point you bring up applies to EVERY in starcraft 2; moreso than random, even. As long as there are multiple races, random included, people will get upset at the other two (three) races, because losing in a difficult game isn't fun. Ladder wasn't made to create a high level competitive environment akin to tournament level metagames. + Show Spoiler +Then why is it designed to give players the most evenly skilled opponents it possibly can? Why does it rank players according to their skill? I think our definitions of a "competitive environment" are very different, but either way i don't think it relates to the problem I'm having understanding HR's existence. So you seem to think that random HR is no different than any other advantage than that of picking a race, and that questioning why HR exist is no different than questioning why any of the other race specific advantages exist. I think I found a video that explains the concept that I haven't been able to put into words that's very relevant to HR. A mechanic or ability in a multiplayer game should increase the number of meaningful choices available to the player using it and the player it's being used on. In the context of our argument, HR is bad counter-play. While its fun and gives more options for the player picking random , in the form of the ability to abuse their opponents lack of information, it also limits what the non-random player can and can't, at least not safely, do in the beginning of the game. So if you could agree that HR is bad counter-play, then why is it still in the game? It's been in Starcraft since the beginning, made into to WOL and so far seems like it's going to be in HOTS. It's hard to believe that through 14+ years of developing and tweaking such a well designed game in so many other regards that no one at blizzard ever stopped to see that this was not a good idea and fix it. It only leaves that there's some underlying reason, that isn't simply incompetence, that it's still there, but what is that reason? I just. Don't. Get it. Video doesn't prove anything, lol. The basic concept of expanding choices is situational to a strategy game like SC2. For like the tenth time you tunnel vision on random when SC2 is a game which strategy revolves around limited choices. Dealing with problems that have FEW meaningful solutions. This applies to every fucking aspect of SC2. You have TONS of options; correct choices and subpar choices. You have a huge array of strategies you can play vs random; chances are most of them will suck. There are TONS of cool ways to open in mirror match-ups; majority of them will get you killed. Like, everything you advocate for random applies almost equally to SC2; the only way to satisfy such ridiculous constraints would be to make a single grey blob race that removes all diversity and imbalance. It's not counter-play, it's (ironically) another choice. In your OPINION, it's not a good idea, and in your OPINION, it should be fixed. You don't get it, but many others do. Have you ever considered that you have a bias you're unwilling to give up? For every reason you take issue with random you take issue with starcraft itself in ways, but you're only willing to blame random itself. Hmm. So if we ignore aaaaall the points I've tried to make and my motive for being on this thread, that I've already mentioned at the end of every post that you seem to miss anyway, and just peg me as some guy who wants random removed because I'm simply projecting problems with sc2 onto random or more specifically HR, which, again I feel made pretty clear isn't the case, then why not remove HR? If the problems exist with or without HR, then why does it matter whether it's in the game or not, why are you auguring in favor of it so much if it really doesn't matter? I've addressed -every- single point, the majority of which cherry pick problems of random and conveniently ignore the "problem" that extends across the entire game. All of these aren't problems at all; they're entirely normal to the game. It all revolves back around to the underlying issue that players with an invested bias against random shouldn't be given credence in an argument to remove it simply because they don't think it's fun to play against. You keep bringing up "problems" with random which simply aren't "problems." HR is already in the game, people enjoy HR, and there has yet to be an argument convincing enough to remove it for the sake of pleasing disgruntled non-random players. It adds a little more depth to the game without taking anything away from it. Of the things we've discussed, problems with the match making, counter-play, player freedom and choice etc., most of them are rooms for improvement more than they are things to just be accepted. If the game can be improved in anyway, I don't see why it would make sense not to. Have you stopped to think why are there so many people that don't like random, or HR specifically, instead of bashing people for incompetence? Because for one,It sort of ties into counter-play if the "depth" of introducing HR is coming at the price of upsetting some of your player base, depending on why exactly they're upset, and for two whining, or lack thereof, doesn't happen for no reason. Any whining that happens with a certain level of consistency is worth examining to find it's source, as to accurately decide whether or not to make a change to quell it and what that change should be.
You can't fix the match-making. There are three races. Like I said, the only way for ratings to be perfect is if everyone were equally skilled against each race, and played to their full ability with each and every game. The game isn't improved by removing random -- and if you were trying to spin this tangent into a point about improving ladder, removing random won't do anything. If there was a magic ladder rating system that could account for players lack of consistency in all match-ups it'd account for random's lack of consistency too, lol.
So many people? The only people who ever give a shit to go out of their way to bitch on a forum are a vocal minority. The people actually able to deal with random who couldn't care less out-number them by magnitudes in the hundreds. Is SC2 now a democracy (of the most vocal players) where everyone votes for their favorite features, or can we acknowledge that players aren't qualified in many respects to have an opinion in an argument they have an invested bias in -- let alone aren't capable of even comprehending completely?
On January 07 2013 02:28 Ogww wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 02:00 Latringuden wrote:
You can't justify it to be in the game because you don't view it as a different race from p/t/z. It's a forth race with it's own openings, mechanics, challange, incentive and gameplay. View it as such and find what you think is the proper way of dealing with the race, Random. It shouldn't be limiting, it should be a test on how well you know and play that specific match up (as with any other race). It's not forth race. It's either T, P and Z, with information advantage at beginning and no downside other than the players own lacking skill level and spawning as Terran every now and then. Game shouldn't be handicapped in any way. If random would show it's race at the start, every random player would likely drop a bit in MMR, so what? Atleast you'd be playing legit matchups and not ruining 5-10% of other players games as they can't practice their to-go builds against certain race.
It's a fourth race, lol. Everything you're trying to say directly contradicts common knowledge. The only people handicapped by random are the incompetent in lower leagues too stubborn to acknowledge random as a race and actually play properly against it. Why are 5-10% of players entitled to playing a high level metagame when anyone can troll with any race? Turns out ladder's function isn't to cater to players for practice in a tournament level metagame. Get over yourself.
On January 07 2013 02:49 kill619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 02:28 Ogww wrote:On January 07 2013 02:00 Latringuden wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
You can't justify it to be in the game because you don't view it as a different race from p/t/z. It's a forth race with it's own openings, mechanics, challange, incentive and gameplay. View it as such and find what you think is the proper way of dealing with the race, Random. It shouldn't be limiting, it should be a test on how well you know and play that specific match up (as with any other race).
It's not forth race. It's either T, P and Z, with information advantage at beginning and no downside other than the players own lacking skill level and spawning as Terran every now and then. Game shouldn't be handicapped in any way. If random would show it's race at the start, every random player would likely drop a bit in MMR, so what? Atleast you'd be playing legit matchups and not ruining 5-10% of other players games as they can't practice their to-go builds against certain race. Pretty much what I was gonna say. Also
'Another think tank agrees with me.' You tell me that I'm pegging you for whatever and yet you'll agree with the base ignorance I've been trying to dispel for several pages, lol.
|
On January 07 2013 02:49 kill619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 02:28 Ogww wrote:On January 07 2013 02:00 Latringuden wrote:
You can't justify it to be in the game because you don't view it as a different race from p/t/z. It's a forth race with it's own openings, mechanics, challange, incentive and gameplay. View it as such and find what you think is the proper way of dealing with the race, Random. It shouldn't be limiting, it should be a test on how well you know and play that specific match up (as with any other race). It's not forth race. It's either T, P and Z, with information advantage at beginning and no downside other than the players own lacking skill level and spawning as Terran every now and then. Game shouldn't be handicapped in any way. If random would show it's race at the start, every random player would likely drop a bit in MMR, so what? Atleast you'd be playing legit matchups and not ruining 5-10% of other players games as they can't practice their to-go builds against certain race. Pretty much what I was gonna say.
A bit earlier we were discussing a problem with Random as it would constrict the set of builds thet you could do. I don't agree on this since I think maps, spawningpoints and your opponents build are more important for deciding your build. And by your logic it's not really a problem since you only play your go-to build for all match ups. If the problem you have with Random is that you are outside your comfort zone then go play Random. You'll be outside your comfort zone all the time. You both seem to forget that Random player faces Random as often as non-Random players..
kill619 wrote: Show nested quote +If it has its own metagame surrounding it, I'd consider it a 'fourth race' even if it's a clusterfuck of all three races thrown at you randomly. Defining a race as something that has a metagame a surrounding it is an odd way of going about it. By that logic, there's a near infinite number of "races". There are metagames for builds and their follow ups, compositions, maps, players, etc.
I wouldn't view a build as it's own metagame since all builds are restricted to the race. Hence I don't think that logic is sound. I would however look at Random as its own race with its own metagame, because the viable builds might be altered slightly for both players.
|
I know Random players who scout and just play their normal game .... this was a little bit off topic.
If u are P just make a gate expand or 4-gate, do u know 3-gate sentry expand this is the safest gate expand.
As Z just make an early pool maybe a 12 pool hmmmm.
Finally T, just play safe build an early bunker and make an CC in your base and dont forget to use your "SCAN".
|
You can't fix the match-making. There are three races. Like I said, the only way for ratings to be perfect is if everyone were equally skilled against each race, and played to their full ability with each and every game. The game isn't improved by removing random -- and if you were trying to spin this tangent into a point about improving ladder, removing random won't do anything. If there was a magic ladder rating system that could account for players lack of consistency in all match-ups it'd account for random's lack of consistency too, lol.
I've proposed a way that could fix the problem with ladder multiple times and you've yet to explain why you, apparently, think it wouldn't work. And once again, I never said anything about wanting to remove random, simply to examine HR and all its positive and negative effects on the game.
So many people? The only people who ever give a shit to go out of their way to bitch on a forum are a vocal minority. The people actually able to deal with random who couldn't care less out-number them by magnitudes in the hundreds.
You have nothing that proves that statement. I said what I did based on the existence of plenty of threads, just like this one, about random, that you can find on plenty of different forums. A lot of those forums start off as or devolve into 1 group of people bashing random as cheesy/gimicky/stupid and another group bashing the first one for not being competent enough to just deal with HR and any other problems people have with random.
Is SC2 now a democracy (of the most vocal players) where everyone votes for their favorite features, or can we acknowledge that players aren't qualified in many respects to have an opinion in an argument they have an invested bias in -- let alone aren't capable of even comprehending completely?
It's painfully obvious you didn't read all of what you were responding to, or at the very least didn't understand it very well. It's fine if you didn't understand what I was saying, but to ignore it instead of asking me to explain what I was talking about is only gonna make this argument last way longer than it needs to. I'd recommend you re-read it and try again.
Why are 5-10% of players entitled to playing a high level metagame when anyone can troll with any race? Turns out ladder's function isn't to cater to players for practice in a tournament level metagame. Get over yourself......'Another think tank agrees with me.' You tell me that I'm pegging you for whatever and yet you'll agree with the base ignorance I've been trying to dispel for several pages, lol.
What does this even mean? It's a bit unclear the point your trying to make.
|
On January 07 2013 02:49 kill619 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 02:28 Ogww wrote:On January 07 2013 02:00 Latringuden wrote:
You can't justify it to be in the game because you don't view it as a different race from p/t/z. It's a forth race with it's own openings, mechanics, challange, incentive and gameplay. View it as such and find what you think is the proper way of dealing with the race, Random. It shouldn't be limiting, it should be a test on how well you know and play that specific match up (as with any other race). It's not forth race. It's either T, P and Z, with information advantage at beginning and no downside other than the players own lacking skill level and spawning as Terran every now and then. Game shouldn't be handicapped in any way. If random would show it's race at the start, every random player would likely drop a bit in MMR, so what? Atleast you'd be playing legit matchups and not ruining 5-10% of other players games as they can't practice their to-go builds against certain race. Pretty much what I was gonna say. Also From Latringuden Show nested quote +And the other one has the un-even level of skill since he/she will be better at any given matchup (in theory). That theory relies on the being able to predict the consistency of player mmr not being accurate relative to a match up specific mmr. From Clbull Show nested quote +If it has its own metagame surrounding it, I'd consider it a 'fourth race' even if it's a clusterfuck of all three races thrown at you randomly. Defining a race as something that has a metagame a surrounding it is an odd way of going about it. By that logic, there's a near infinite number of "races". There are metagames for builds and their follow ups, compositions, maps, players, etc.
Here's what I mean. By no means a comprehensive list of openers but here you go.
PvT:
- Forge Fast Expand (only vs gasless fe openings)
- 3 Gate Sentry Expand
- Proxy Gateway Core. Done by CombatEX vs KsAlexCMoi in the finals of WCG Canada 2012. If unscouted, allows you to get a Zealot and Stalkers to your opponent's main and deal a fucktonne of damage.
- 1 Gate Expand
- Nexus First
- 3 Gate Pressure into Expand
- (Delayed) 4 Gate
- Proxy Double Gateway
PvP:
- 3 Gate Robo
- 3 Gate Stargate
- 4 Gate all in
- Defensive 4 Gate
- 3 Gate Blink
- 4 Gate DT
- Proxy Double Gateway
PvZ:
- Forge Fast Expand
- 1 Gate Expand (only works well against the modern Zerg metagame and if the gate constitutes part of a natural wall-off.)
- 3 Gate Sentry Expand
- 4 Gate
- Nexus First
- 7 Gate Blink
- 7 Gate Sentry Immortal All-In
- FFE into 4 Gate Blink Fast Expand
PvR:
- Depends on what you scout, but basically 1 Gate Expand, Forge Fast Expand and Nexus first become out of the picture due to their lack of viability in PvP. The absolute easiest way to beat FFE is to either 4-gate into it or go Robo Blink., and Nexus First also suffers from a similar issue whereby you cannot hold mirror matchup aggression.
- Yes you do see Nexus First in PvP sometimes but this is in the pro scene where you see pro players try to cut as many corners as humanely possible.
- Proxy Double Gateway is also out of the question in PvZ due to how easy it is to scout, how fast lings are and how quickly a Zerg can shut down Zealot aggression with just Lings, Spines and/or Queens anyway. Yes, if any player scouts it and knows what's up, it's usually game ending but for Zerg it's moreso because they can pump out units in danger very quickly.
I'm saying it has its own metagame because you cannot simply cut corners because you don't know what the fuck you are up against until you scout. Likewise, it's more difficult for you as a player because you have to practice three races instead of one, although you will be practicing against older-style openings rather than the refined openings of the current metagame.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On January 07 2013 03:51 Latringuden wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2013 02:49 kill619 wrote:On January 07 2013 02:28 Ogww wrote:On January 07 2013 02:00 Latringuden wrote:
You can't justify it to be in the game because you don't view it as a different race from p/t/z. It's a forth race with it's own openings, mechanics, challange, incentive and gameplay. View it as such and find what you think is the proper way of dealing with the race, Random. It shouldn't be limiting, it should be a test on how well you know and play that specific match up (as with any other race). It's not forth race. It's either T, P and Z, with information advantage at beginning and no downside other than the players own lacking skill level and spawning as Terran every now and then. Game shouldn't be handicapped in any way. If random would show it's race at the start, every random player would likely drop a bit in MMR, so what? Atleast you'd be playing legit matchups and not ruining 5-10% of other players games as they can't practice their to-go builds against certain race. Pretty much what I was gonna say. A bit earlier we were discussing a problem with Random as it would constrict the set of builds thet you could do. I don't agree on this since I think maps, spawningpoints and your opponents build are more important for deciding your build. And by your logic it's not really a problem since you only play your go-to build for all match ups. If the problem you have with Random is that you are outside your comfort zone then go play Random. You'll be outside your comfort zone all the time. You both seem to forget that Random player faces Random as often as non-Random players.. Show nested quote +kill619 wrote: If it has its own metagame surrounding it, I'd consider it a 'fourth race' even if it's a clusterfuck of all three races thrown at you randomly. Defining a race as something that has a metagame a surrounding it is an odd way of going about it. By that logic, there's a near infinite number of "races". There are metagames for builds and their follow ups, compositions, maps, players, etc. I wouldn't view a build as it's own metagame since all builds are restricted to the race. Hence I don't think that logic is sound. I would however look at Random as its own race with its own metagame, because the viable builds might be altered slightly for both players.
And by your logic it's not really a problem since you only play your go-to build for all match ups.
Allow me to reiterate, I was trying to say that I believe that the viability of a build is determined more so by the race of his opponent, literally what 1 race can and can not do in a given period of time, than it is by map design, metagame or anything else.
If the problem you have with Random is that you are outside your comfort zone then go play Random. You'll be outside your comfort zone all the time. You both seem to forget that Random player faces Random as often as non-Random players..
The problem with telling a player that is no matter how much you play random to "become more comfortable with it" there's no amount of playing random that compensates for any of the advantages, if any, that come from the race of your opponent being hidden and your's revealed. Regardless, I don't have any personal vendetta against random. Random, HR or not, doesn't personally effect my experience of the game, buts that's not why I'm here. I'd like to figure out, not from the subjective perspective of a player but from the point of view of a game designer, why such a mechanic, as what's essentially the option to hide your race, would be introduced.
|
I know in SC2BW mod if someone chooses random it displays the match up 10 seconds in-game so you know what race your playing against. Maybe if Blizzard added this to the game?
|
On January 07 2013 04:49 kill619 wrote:Show nested quote +You can't fix the match-making. There are three races. Like I said, the only way for ratings to be perfect is if everyone were equally skilled against each race, and played to their full ability with each and every game. The game isn't improved by removing random -- and if you were trying to spin this tangent into a point about improving ladder, removing random won't do anything. If there was a magic ladder rating system that could account for players lack of consistency in all match-ups it'd account for random's lack of consistency too, lol. I've proposed a way that could fix the problem with ladder multiple times and you've yet to explain why you, apparently, think it wouldn't work. And once again, I never said anything about wanting to remove random, simply to examine HR and all its positive and negative effects on the game. Show nested quote +So many people? The only people who ever give a shit to go out of their way to bitch on a forum are a vocal minority. The people actually able to deal with random who couldn't care less out-number them by magnitudes in the hundreds. You have nothing that proves that statement. I said what I did based on the existence of plenty of threads, just like this one, about random, that you can find on plenty of different forums. A lot of those forums start off as or devolve into 1 group of people bashing random as cheesy/gimicky/stupid and another group bashing the first one for not being competent enough to just deal with HR and any other problems people have with random. Show nested quote +Is SC2 now a democracy (of the most vocal players) where everyone votes for their favorite features, or can we acknowledge that players aren't qualified in many respects to have an opinion in an argument they have an invested bias in -- let alone aren't capable of even comprehending completely? It's painfully obvious you didn't read all of what you were responding to, or at the very least didn't understand it very well. It's fine if you didn't understand what I was saying, but to ignore it instead of asking me to explain what I was talking about is only gonna make this argument last way longer than it needs to. I'd recommend you re-read it and try again. Show nested quote +Why are 5-10% of players entitled to playing a high level metagame when anyone can troll with any race? Turns out ladder's function isn't to cater to players for practice in a tournament level metagame. Get over yourself......'Another think tank agrees with me.' You tell me that I'm pegging you for whatever and yet you'll agree with the base ignorance I've been trying to dispel for several pages, lol. What does this even mean? It's a bit unclear the point your trying to make.
It doesn't really matter what your proposed solution is, it's fairly irrelevant in that random has virtually no impact on ladder inflation; like, it cant be willingly abused moreso than any other race can be. You don't specifically say remove random, but you ask all these rhetorical questions like "why does random need HR" which pretty much spells your intention to lobby for HR's removal.
Statistics are well on my side, especially given that you base yours on what probably amounts to a hundred or two extremely vocal posters. Yet you gladly exaggerate the number with 'many' as opposed to 'some.' If we're going to be liberal on statistics as to who is more likely post their opinion on random, chances are if someone doesn't care or are fine with they won't post; there are hundreds of thousands of players not passionate enough to post about it. Even then, it's all irrelevant. In ALL issues regarding SC2, the amount of complaints simply isn't enough. Like I said, many posters aren't competent enough to understand the full ramifications on what amounts to an actual issue in SC2. Random especially, they have an emotionally invested bias as they themselves don't play random and don't enjoy losing to it. Theres a ton of shit people don't like to lose to, and even go so far to complain about.
|
Cry less and be better than your opponent.. shouldn't be hard since random players "have no skill." If you think you are losing and you are better, then maybe you should try random, try another race, or fucking play a different game where the better player wins. Sorry your games don't resemble the games that you saw on your NASL VODs that you paid for where Gretorp taught you the intricacies of the metagame about how to play TvZ on Daybreak.
(I <3 Gretorp btw)
|
I see Random mentioned as its own race many times in this thread, can I ask how? Surely its just the game throwing a dice for you at the start, nothing more.
|
After huge break of playing sc2, i decided to play again and i encoutered some random players at my level (Platinum), as zerg, i just go 14 gas and 14 pool always just for safety and for a quick counter if hes going something fishy you know.
I encouter many cheeser players or doing metagame builds.
|
I dont see a problem with random players. I open pretty much the same in all 3 match ups (as protoss) and will generally only deviate by the time ive scouted him. And if you're finding that large 4 player maps are giving you a problem with scouting them last, just pull a probe to go scout the last position if you dont scout them first, then where ever they've spawned you'll be able to have a hidden pylon or just a second probe out on the map if your first is killed (vs zerg)
|
I usually 9 scout against a random player. I don't really mind them because I'm used to holding off all-ins/cheeses from playing on the SEA server. All they do is force you to scout a little earlier.
|
Why does this topic keep coming back? First, ask yourself, "why is Random in the game?" Any answer you can come up with here will be fine.
Next, as has been proposed months ago, find a reason why the randomed race shouldn't show up in the top right corner in the allies menu. Basically, people who complain have a solution, and people who don't care, don't care. That's the solution.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
