EPTif he was teaching someone, it could have been a starting point to make sure they knew some basics
eg. he was saying it would roll to give them some confidence and prep them for the other special builds to follow or w.e
[D] Zerg equivalent to a 4-Gate - Page 9
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
if he was teaching someone, it could have been a starting point to make sure they knew some basics eg. he was saying it would roll to give them some confidence and prep them for the other special builds to follow or w.e | ||
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parabs
Canada68 Posts
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Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
This build is a 9:00 minute allin timing. That is so, so late to punish any hatch first opening. It is too late to punish/pressure a 14 pool 15 hatch opening. It is too late to pressure a 14 gas 14 pool 21 hatch opening. This build is just a delayed timing attack. Unless your opponent is also going one base play, you should lose to a much higher economy/roach count. The amount of discussion over simple Starcraft logic in this thread is quite astounding. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On May 22 2011 07:03 Belial88 wrote: You know your set so far back economically with this, I've found on certain maps with narrow chokes to natural like Shakuras can beat this with hatch first and mass spines. Maybe I should've pushed 100% but here's a replay of me doing the build and losing to someone who went hatch first and mass spine. I mean here's the replay you guys can judge for yourself, I do a good job of staying in the game but I'm clearly just a step behind economically the whole time. I would've lost much earlier in the game if I hadn't played perfectly against everything this guy does. I saw the mass spine and decided to back off, but maybe I should've just threw everything at him anyways. It's possible I could've broke him. He also went hatch first, I feel maybe I should've just went normal speedling expand against him but with 13 pool first, I felt like the speedlings would've been too late. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=210255 Now I don't think a speedling expand will beat this at all - you have to really all-in with a speedling expand, it can do more damage on maps with big chokes maybe like Scrap Station, but the ground distance is so far it kind of weakens it. Anyways, as I said in my previous post, I feel like a hatch first can beat it. But here is what I've observed so far: 1. Why not do this build with in-base hatch? It seems to me that while 2 bases with 20 drones is better than 1 base with 20 drones, in either case you will have more than enough money to support 2 hatches with 2 queens. This leads me to believe that: A) An in-base hatch is safer, and better, although an opponent can react to a clear all-in with mass spines. B) Why not cut drones around 18 instead? C) Since 16 drones is what is the limit for optimal 1 base mineral saturation, you really don't even need a 2nd base, since while its better to have 16+4 than 20 drones, it's not really worth the risk of an expo, particularly against the popular speedling expand play. 2. If you scout someone going 13 pool 15 gas, you can 'counter' it with an immediate 2nd base. Either their speedlings will be late if they are playing normal, they are doing this build which we all seem to agree can be agreed with fast expansion and making sure you only stay around 20 drones and have mass spines, or they are going to play normal and expand also, which means you are ahead with your faster hatch and doing the same thing. In the event you see they are doing this build with a 13 pool 15 gas ~19 roach, a faster hatch and doing the same sort of roach/speedling 20 drone will put you in an advantage. I do think that ZvZ will 'degenerate' into a mass speedling/roach play with 20 drones, but I do think this will lead to quicker hatches taken now on. If you scout someone doing a normal gas first or speedling or baneling opener, you can do this exact build, otherwise you have to expand. | ||
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FuzZyLogic
United States141 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On May 23 2011 16:46 Belial88 wrote: 1. Why not do this build with in-base hatch? It seems to me that while 2 bases with 20 drones is better than 1 base with 20 drones, in either case you will have more than enough money to support 2 hatches with 2 queens. A one-base income actually can't sustain full production off 2 hatch 2 queen, regardless of what unit you're producing. (Although if you have extra money, you can temporarily produce at full capacity while you spend it down.) The build is designed for maximizing early drones with a sharp shift into units/tech/infrastructure, so I expect you'd want to completely reshape it if you were going for fewer drones. For example, using slowlings instead of the early Spine for defense, and skipping the second Queen since you wouldn't have the income to support her. Possibly skipping the second hatch too, and pulling a bunch of drones to Spine the enemy's natural Creep while you stream lings. Of course, in doing so you're telegraphing the hell out of your all-in. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Terkill
Denmark38 Posts
On May 18 2011 14:16 MrBitter wrote: Destiny's trolling you guys. 1 base roach will lose to 2 base roach every time.... In the long run of course. But this is a pretty early all in strategy, making it viable even though you're behind in economy. I've found a lot of succes with this build and I play high masters. But it's definitely best on close positions maps - actually I've found my self losing with this build only on maps where I spawned far away from my opponent. | ||
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Humfluxx
Sweden47 Posts
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
1. You start with Roaches, walling off and preventing scouting. So there will not be banelings, period. You even only start to mass lings once your roaches move out. 2. You attack at a point where the extra eco of the opponent is just about to kick in, but he didn't get any net profit out of it. So basically both players invested the same, one more in army, the other more in eco. Guess who will win a straight up fight at that point. Having better eco in the long run is irrelevant when you're getting rolled. | ||
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Destiny
United States280 Posts
Anyway, here's my explanation of how/why this build works the way it does - Essentially you are getting the bare minimum number of drones needed to sustain 2 queens/2 hatcheries worth of zerglings. You mine enough gas for 10 roaches/zerg speed, send 10 roaches the enemy base, then rally mass speedlings behind it. Banelings don't work to counter this because of the 10 roaches you send, and mass lings will die to roach/speedling, and a greater number of roaches will die to roach/ling. If you build even 4-6 too many drones, you will lose the game, it would seem. The only way to stop this build is to do something equivalent, I believe. I don't think it's possible to stop this all-in unless you do something that also puts yourself at an economic disadvantage (ie:,creating a lot of roaches/lings/spines yourself). If someone disagrees with me, or thinks they have a different way to stop it, I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE YOU SHOWING ME, because I haven't found a way to do it yet. I'm heading to the store right now, but I'll be back in about an hour and we can play games, if you want. I'll stream it if anyone else is interested in seeing it. | ||
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Destiny
United States280 Posts
On May 22 2011 07:03 Belial88 wrote: You know your set so far back economically with this, I've found on certain maps with narrow chokes to natural like Shakuras can beat this with hatch first and mass spines. Maybe I should've pushed 100% but here's a replay of me doing the build and losing to someone who went hatch first and mass spine. I watched this game, and I honestly believe you could have either won, or dealt significant damage, if you would have pushed the second your roaches got to his base. Since your attack is hinging on 10 roaches, reinforced with tons of lings, with a very low drone count (compared to your enemy), this attack is the strongest at the moment your roaches reach your opponent's base. Afterwards, it can only grow weaker. Also, a note about your play - this build should be fairly hard to scout - just keep 4-5 roaches at the entrance of your base, then hide the rest of your army behind your ramp or natural or something. You were massing up units the entire time, however, right underneath his overlord. If someone is going to beat this build, that'd be one way to let them do it. | ||
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Destiny
United States280 Posts
On May 20 2011 05:50 Torte de Lini wrote: This is a terrible build and instantly recognized. The biggest problem with this build are two things: 1. It's detectable and 2. Any opponent who expos faster than you and sees you coming (big grace to the overlords) will just start massing roaches. True, this might work on close-ground positions, but cross-map or cross-air just nullifies this attack. An 8 pool stops this because the spine crawlers is only 65% up and your queen is almost popping by the time the lings have already taking out two to three drones. Additionally, when you try to expo, mass lings pretty much destroy your roaches and denies your expo, preventing you from actually following up into your masterful push. I've tried it 8 times and even when done perfectly or with slight alterations, two things occur: 1. the opponent simply gets a slightly better economy than you or 2. he simply out numbers your lings and roaches by a severe amount. The video is terrible because the guy engaged his roaches into destiny's built-army letting the lings get a surround. Back yourself up to a wall, funnel the lings and you pretty much destroyed half his army. Additional lings are coming in for support, but at the same time your roach reinforcements are already incoming. How this could work beyond Diamond is beyond my understanding. This isn't the 4-gate because it leaves too much time for your opponent to see you only producing units and respond accurately (in most cases, a lot of roaches with soon +1 attack). Additionally, getting ling and banelings + 1 is nothing unusual to break a wall of what, 6 roaches (by the time it is done) Is it bad ettiquite on TL forums to post multiple times on a row? Let me know if it and I'll start consolidating. Posts like these kind of scare me because the poster comes off as sounding somewhat well-versed when, in reality, he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. "terrible build and instantly recognized" wat? Are you massing units underneath an overlord? "An 8 pool stops this because the spine crawlers is only 65% up and your queen is almost popping by the time the lings have already taking out two to three drones." I'm only 1450masters, so maybe I'm not high enough yet to get matched up against Zergs who play the legendary "8pool" style. If you have any replays of a person seriously doing an 8p above gold league I'd love to see them. Regardless, drone micro saves you from any <10p. "Additionally, when you try to expo, mass lings pretty much destroy your roaches and denies your expo, preventing you from actually following up into your masterful push." Sorry, in what ZvZ world do you scout your opponent opening roaches, and then decide to mass ling to counter? What could be going through an intelligent Z's mind when you see that? "Well, he's on 1 base, maybe he's doing a +1 timing attack with his roaches. I know the only reason you get +1 roaches is so that you can 2shot lings, therefor, I'm going to mass lings in the hope that he expands and transitions out of roaches." I guess it could work, but only a bad Z player would be content to flip a coin like this. "I've tried it 8 times and even when done perfectly or with slight alterations" need replays, seriously, I'd like to see how you could fail this so miserably when I'm able to make it work against Grandmaster players. " This isn't the 4-gate because it leaves too much time for your opponent to see you only producing units and respond accurately (in most cases, a lot of roaches with soon +1 attack)." +1 attack..? wat? EDIT: Actually, if you don't mind, you can show me how you think it's so easily stoppable. I would gladly play vs you, I haven't found a good counter yet. | ||
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Exley
United States239 Posts
1. Hatch-first into roach is very strong vs. 1-base roach openings, and it will get you to 20+ drones off two bases quicker than Destiny's build. 2. If you open standard speedling, and you see the spine/roachwarren/larva (before roaches come out), I think you are safe to expand immediately, pulling all drones off gas and using speedlings to counter if the roaches move out. One thing is for sure, I'm going to be checking for the drone count at the natural in every ZvZ before getting anything over 22 drones. Exley.293 if interested in testing. | ||
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Ruyguy
Canada988 Posts
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
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criz202
Germany4 Posts
criz out | ||
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intOx_HH
United States30 Posts
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On May 18 2011 13:12 TheLOLas wrote: This looks very strong. Extremely actually. I've heard doatrap and tastosis talk about a roach ling all in recently. Maybe this was it. Can't wait to try this out. EDIT- Just tried it and it has one major flaw. They can baneling bust the roaches that serve as a wall. I did eventually win however because i massed about 24 roaches and took out his base. Just thought i would let you know. the roach ling all in is a 2 base zvp build. | ||
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