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On May 20 2011 23:20 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 22:06 michaelhasanalias wrote:On May 20 2011 14:59 MrBitter wrote:
I really want to reiterate just how annoying and absolutely incorrect some of the statements being made in this thread are.
"PLAYER X" DOES A ROACH/SPEEDLING ATTACK DOES NOT = "PLAYER X IS DOING THIS BUILD"
Let's make a comparison to PvZ really quickly.
Protoss A goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, cancels his Nexus and attacks.
Protoss B goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, DOES NOT CANCEL, and still attacks.
Are both players doing the same build?
Absolutely and unequivocally not.
Obviously the builds are different. One player expanded, and the other player did not.
IF THE NEXUS CANCELLING PLAYER EXPANDS LATER, IS HE NOW DOING THE SAME THING!?
The answer is still no. They are very different builds, and have MASSIVE economic differences.
In ZvZ, if Player A goes 15 hatch into roach speedling, and Player B goes roach speedling after expanding around 30 supply, the economies of the two players will be massively different.
For the love of all that is good in this world, please stop fucking saying that "JULY DID THIS SAME BUILD BUT HE WENT HATCH FIRST!!!!"
If July went hatch first, his build shares ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with this one.
And for what it's worth, the entire reason that July went hatch first is because its about 50,000x stronger to go roaches off of 2 bases than it is off of one.
>.< Your vids are really good, but this is totally uncalled for and is just a bunch of whining. You have to be referring to my post, since there are only two posts in this entire thread talking about that game, one of them being mine. I was making some toast during the opening moments of the game and must have missed the hatch first, but both the attack, roach/drone/ling count and timing looked very similar. They are different means to get there, but it's not a far stretch to say that they are the same builds. Get off your high horse and go watch the game. Their economies are likely to be different but aren't necessarily going to be different. It depends when and where you cut, and his build hit with the pretty much the same force at the same time as the one described in the OP. It's great that 15hatch opening is not the same as a 13 pool. Thanks for that high level commentary. The map he did that on is large enough to allow for a safe 15hatch, and so he took some creative license with the general theme of the build. Also your analogy is absolutely wrong and off-base, as your protoss analog changes the outcome, whereas July simply changed the means to get there. edit: If you have something more constructive to add beyond "guys, 15 hatch is different from 13 pool", I'd be glad to hear it though. All the lessons you buy from those high level players must give you some better perspective on a strategy that seems to be dominating zvz lately. I'm not on a high horse. Its not dominating ZvZ. I'm trying to give constructive advice, but nobody wants to listen.......... Strategy forum these days is so /facepalm. And its an incredibly far stretch to say the builds are anything close to being the same. Terran FE into 4 rax is not the same as Terran 4 rax all-in.
It must be hard to quote my response and then commit the same logical fallacies again.
Your post once again has absolutely nothing to do with this thread and you sound like an elitist jackass.
And yet again you draw an analogy of the 13pool vs 15h opener in this build to a 2-base vs 1-base build for another race.
I'm not trying to pick on you, but I mean... why post in a thread claiming to be a voice of reason only to provide off-topic commentary and then have the audacity to complain about the state of the strategy forum?
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So the concept is the same as 4Gate where you are cutting drones around the 20 mark, and just concentrating all of your larva on unit production. Knowing that unless someone is going 1 base muta play, you won't have any air to worry about and you're just going to overpower their army with yours unless they get some gosu bling placements.
I like this, will practice it a bit and try it on the ladder soon :D I'm just diamond though >.>
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mass lings then evo with +1, into speedling baneling will dominate this build very easily, or 15pool, 14gas, speedling baneling, will dominate this build, sorry but this is not unstoppable at all, throwing a spine down in your mineral line immediatly sets you behind if your opponent see's this, a smart player will just FE and immediatly be ahead lol.
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This is definitely a fairly strong build, but some of the comments in here are just plain silly. Random diamond and masters forum posters, including myself, have no way to evaluate if this is broken/overpowered at the pro level or not.
I have no doubt this build can win a lot of ladder games for many zerg players, it's a solid overall build. It feels like early speedling allin or defensive 2 base roach may counter it, but it's hard to say.
I just think Mr. "top 5 in my diamond league" shouldn't be calling Destiny clueless for thinking this build is anything special, or something like that.
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Please don't try to refute this build with WORDS. Refute it with replays.
Kthx.
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This build is absolutely ridiculous. I always go into enemy base at around 70 food thinking "wtf, lots of roaches, 4 spines and 3 queens" but then I watch the fight and this build wins by SUCH a big margin it's not even funny.
You actually WANT the opponent see your roaches, try to hide your lings as long as possible that he doesn't get a banenest. There really should be no baneling nest if you were scouted by your opponent.
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I've been doing this, and watching vids of it, and I think in-base hatch is better. You don't need an expo, you'll have enough money to do this on 1 base.
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On May 21 2011 01:32 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 23:20 MrBitter wrote:On May 20 2011 22:06 michaelhasanalias wrote:On May 20 2011 14:59 MrBitter wrote:
I really want to reiterate just how annoying and absolutely incorrect some of the statements being made in this thread are.
"PLAYER X" DOES A ROACH/SPEEDLING ATTACK DOES NOT = "PLAYER X IS DOING THIS BUILD"
Let's make a comparison to PvZ really quickly.
Protoss A goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, cancels his Nexus and attacks.
Protoss B goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, DOES NOT CANCEL, and still attacks.
Are both players doing the same build?
Absolutely and unequivocally not.
Obviously the builds are different. One player expanded, and the other player did not.
IF THE NEXUS CANCELLING PLAYER EXPANDS LATER, IS HE NOW DOING THE SAME THING!?
The answer is still no. They are very different builds, and have MASSIVE economic differences.
In ZvZ, if Player A goes 15 hatch into roach speedling, and Player B goes roach speedling after expanding around 30 supply, the economies of the two players will be massively different.
For the love of all that is good in this world, please stop fucking saying that "JULY DID THIS SAME BUILD BUT HE WENT HATCH FIRST!!!!"
If July went hatch first, his build shares ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with this one.
And for what it's worth, the entire reason that July went hatch first is because its about 50,000x stronger to go roaches off of 2 bases than it is off of one.
>.< Your vids are really good, but this is totally uncalled for and is just a bunch of whining. You have to be referring to my post, since there are only two posts in this entire thread talking about that game, one of them being mine. I was making some toast during the opening moments of the game and must have missed the hatch first, but both the attack, roach/drone/ling count and timing looked very similar. They are different means to get there, but it's not a far stretch to say that they are the same builds. Get off your high horse and go watch the game. Their economies are likely to be different but aren't necessarily going to be different. It depends when and where you cut, and his build hit with the pretty much the same force at the same time as the one described in the OP. It's great that 15hatch opening is not the same as a 13 pool. Thanks for that high level commentary. The map he did that on is large enough to allow for a safe 15hatch, and so he took some creative license with the general theme of the build. Also your analogy is absolutely wrong and off-base, as your protoss analog changes the outcome, whereas July simply changed the means to get there. edit: If you have something more constructive to add beyond "guys, 15 hatch is different from 13 pool", I'd be glad to hear it though. All the lessons you buy from those high level players must give you some better perspective on a strategy that seems to be dominating zvz lately. I'm not on a high horse. Its not dominating ZvZ. I'm trying to give constructive advice, but nobody wants to listen.......... Strategy forum these days is so /facepalm. And its an incredibly far stretch to say the builds are anything close to being the same. Terran FE into 4 rax is not the same as Terran 4 rax all-in. It must be hard to quote my response and then commit the same logical fallacies again. Your post once again has absolutely nothing to do with this thread and you sound like an elitist jackass. And yet again you draw an analogy of the 13pool vs 15h opener in this build to a 2-base vs 1-base build for another race. I'm not trying to pick on you, but I mean... why post in a thread claiming to be a voice of reason only to provide off-topic commentary and then have the audacity to complain about the state of the strategy forum?
Michael please stop you're wrong. You already admitted it by saying you didn't watch the first minutes of a game, and you are still saying you are right and he is wrong?
It's not that hard really. He already explained that you are flat out wrong and he is making an analogy that fits, but you just discard it.
How can a fast expand be the same as 1 base into very late 2 base. Please tell me. Fast expand will have a better eco, more larva and it IS different. Come with actual arguments please.
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On May 21 2011 01:32 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 23:20 MrBitter wrote:On May 20 2011 22:06 michaelhasanalias wrote:On May 20 2011 14:59 MrBitter wrote:
I really want to reiterate just how annoying and absolutely incorrect some of the statements being made in this thread are.
"PLAYER X" DOES A ROACH/SPEEDLING ATTACK DOES NOT = "PLAYER X IS DOING THIS BUILD"
Let's make a comparison to PvZ really quickly.
Protoss A goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, cancels his Nexus and attacks.
Protoss B goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, DOES NOT CANCEL, and still attacks.
Are both players doing the same build?
Absolutely and unequivocally not.
Obviously the builds are different. One player expanded, and the other player did not.
IF THE NEXUS CANCELLING PLAYER EXPANDS LATER, IS HE NOW DOING THE SAME THING!?
The answer is still no. They are very different builds, and have MASSIVE economic differences.
In ZvZ, if Player A goes 15 hatch into roach speedling, and Player B goes roach speedling after expanding around 30 supply, the economies of the two players will be massively different.
For the love of all that is good in this world, please stop fucking saying that "JULY DID THIS SAME BUILD BUT HE WENT HATCH FIRST!!!!"
If July went hatch first, his build shares ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with this one.
And for what it's worth, the entire reason that July went hatch first is because its about 50,000x stronger to go roaches off of 2 bases than it is off of one.
>.< Your vids are really good, but this is totally uncalled for and is just a bunch of whining. You have to be referring to my post, since there are only two posts in this entire thread talking about that game, one of them being mine. I was making some toast during the opening moments of the game and must have missed the hatch first, but both the attack, roach/drone/ling count and timing looked very similar. They are different means to get there, but it's not a far stretch to say that they are the same builds. Get off your high horse and go watch the game. Their economies are likely to be different but aren't necessarily going to be different. It depends when and where you cut, and his build hit with the pretty much the same force at the same time as the one described in the OP. It's great that 15hatch opening is not the same as a 13 pool. Thanks for that high level commentary. The map he did that on is large enough to allow for a safe 15hatch, and so he took some creative license with the general theme of the build. Also your analogy is absolutely wrong and off-base, as your protoss analog changes the outcome, whereas July simply changed the means to get there. edit: If you have something more constructive to add beyond "guys, 15 hatch is different from 13 pool", I'd be glad to hear it though. All the lessons you buy from those high level players must give you some better perspective on a strategy that seems to be dominating zvz lately. I'm not on a high horse. Its not dominating ZvZ. I'm trying to give constructive advice, but nobody wants to listen.......... Strategy forum these days is so /facepalm. And its an incredibly far stretch to say the builds are anything close to being the same. Terran FE into 4 rax is not the same as Terran 4 rax all-in. It must be hard to quote my response and then commit the same logical fallacies again. Your post once again has absolutely nothing to do with this thread and you sound like an elitist jackass. And yet again you draw an analogy of the 13pool vs 15h opener in this build to a 2-base vs 1-base build for another race. I'm not trying to pick on you, but I mean... why post in a thread claiming to be a voice of reason only to provide off-topic commentary and then have the audacity to complain about the state of the strategy forum?
You really need to get off your high horse dude. How is your argument any better than his if you can't quantify what you say? "Their economies are likely to be different but aren't necessarily going to be different?" "I was making some toast during the opening moments of the game and must have missed the hatch first, but both the attack, roach/drone/ling count and timing looked very similar?" "his build hit with the pretty much the same force at the same time as the one described in the OP?" Here, let me translate what you said so you can see what you're sounding like to everyone else: "I sort of watched both of the games, though missing some crucial factors, which has led me to the conclusion that both openings lead to approximately the same amount of stuff at approximately the same timing."
Here are some numbers for you:
In the VOD, Destiny's student moves out at 9:00 with 13 roaches and ~12 lings. With a hatch first build, you can have that many units a full minute earlier, with ~20 more lings about to hatch. Speedling expand delays the timing by like 15 seconds, depending on how you drone. Now you tell me whether a minute faster attack timing is good or not. Or, to put it into perspective, at 9 minutes, you have 13 roaches and ~60 lings.
Also, you're treading really thin waters with your attitude.
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had 2 people do this build today and it was strong sure, but not unbeatable, seeing how both times i won. (i did heavy 1 base roach into a late expand and kept kiting and not letting the lings surround.) also alot of zvzs are bane oriented and that should nullify it.
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On May 21 2011 16:54 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 01:32 michaelhasanalias wrote:On May 20 2011 23:20 MrBitter wrote:On May 20 2011 22:06 michaelhasanalias wrote:On May 20 2011 14:59 MrBitter wrote:
I really want to reiterate just how annoying and absolutely incorrect some of the statements being made in this thread are.
"PLAYER X" DOES A ROACH/SPEEDLING ATTACK DOES NOT = "PLAYER X IS DOING THIS BUILD"
Let's make a comparison to PvZ really quickly.
Protoss A goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, cancels his Nexus and attacks.
Protoss B goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, DOES NOT CANCEL, and still attacks.
Are both players doing the same build?
Absolutely and unequivocally not.
Obviously the builds are different. One player expanded, and the other player did not.
IF THE NEXUS CANCELLING PLAYER EXPANDS LATER, IS HE NOW DOING THE SAME THING!?
The answer is still no. They are very different builds, and have MASSIVE economic differences.
In ZvZ, if Player A goes 15 hatch into roach speedling, and Player B goes roach speedling after expanding around 30 supply, the economies of the two players will be massively different.
For the love of all that is good in this world, please stop fucking saying that "JULY DID THIS SAME BUILD BUT HE WENT HATCH FIRST!!!!"
If July went hatch first, his build shares ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with this one.
And for what it's worth, the entire reason that July went hatch first is because its about 50,000x stronger to go roaches off of 2 bases than it is off of one.
>.< Your vids are really good, but this is totally uncalled for and is just a bunch of whining. You have to be referring to my post, since there are only two posts in this entire thread talking about that game, one of them being mine. I was making some toast during the opening moments of the game and must have missed the hatch first, but both the attack, roach/drone/ling count and timing looked very similar. They are different means to get there, but it's not a far stretch to say that they are the same builds. Get off your high horse and go watch the game. Their economies are likely to be different but aren't necessarily going to be different. It depends when and where you cut, and his build hit with the pretty much the same force at the same time as the one described in the OP. It's great that 15hatch opening is not the same as a 13 pool. Thanks for that high level commentary. The map he did that on is large enough to allow for a safe 15hatch, and so he took some creative license with the general theme of the build. Also your analogy is absolutely wrong and off-base, as your protoss analog changes the outcome, whereas July simply changed the means to get there. edit: If you have something more constructive to add beyond "guys, 15 hatch is different from 13 pool", I'd be glad to hear it though. All the lessons you buy from those high level players must give you some better perspective on a strategy that seems to be dominating zvz lately. I'm not on a high horse. Its not dominating ZvZ. I'm trying to give constructive advice, but nobody wants to listen.......... Strategy forum these days is so /facepalm. And its an incredibly far stretch to say the builds are anything close to being the same. Terran FE into 4 rax is not the same as Terran 4 rax all-in. It must be hard to quote my response and then commit the same logical fallacies again. Your post once again has absolutely nothing to do with this thread and you sound like an elitist jackass. And yet again you draw an analogy of the 13pool vs 15h opener in this build to a 2-base vs 1-base build for another race. I'm not trying to pick on you, but I mean... why post in a thread claiming to be a voice of reason only to provide off-topic commentary and then have the audacity to complain about the state of the strategy forum? You really need to get off your high horse dude. How is your argument any better than his if you can't quantify what you say? "Their economies are likely to be different but aren't necessarily going to be different?" "I was making some toast during the opening moments of the game and must have missed the hatch first, but both the attack, roach/drone/ling count and timing looked very similar?" "his build hit with the pretty much the same force at the same time as the one described in the OP?" Here, let me translate what you said so you can see what you're sounding like to everyone else: "I sort of watched both of the games, though missing some crucial factors, which has led me to the conclusion that both openings lead to approximately the same amount of stuff at approximately the same timing." Here are some numbers for you: In the VOD, Destiny's student moves out at 9:00 with 13 roaches and ~12 lings. With a hatch first build, you can have that many units a full minute earlier, with ~20 more lings about to hatch. Speedling expand delays the timing by like 15 seconds, depending on how you drone. Now you tell me whether a minute faster attack timing is good or not. Or, to put it into perspective, at 9 minutes, you have 13 roaches and ~60 lings. Also, you're treading really thin waters with your attitude.
So ban me. I'm not wrong and I'm not going to apologize for calling someone out who posted a slew of misinformation and tried to just use his ethos as the basis for his (lack of) argument. I put a lot of effort into trying to post constructive comments whenever I can and ensure that this place is upstanding in its quality. Hearing some average zerg player who has community notoriety because he pays money for coaching and gives it away for free doesn't make him any more knowledgeable than the next average player.
You're comparing a poorly executed version of that build on a small 2-player map to a more or less perfectly executed hatch first variation on a larger, 4-player map where hatch-first is safe. The rules of engagement on the larger map are different and so as any good player would, the build is subtly modified.
I didn't opt to pay $25 for the NASL pass to re-watch + Show Spoiler +the july darkforce game2 again
No this build isn't some magical hallelujah build, but yes it is very strong and deserves some consideration. Yes it's a different opener, but the goals (in timing, army composition, attack style and attempt to end the game outright) are the same, as well as the overall execution and methodology.
User was banned for this post.
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I'm just theory crafting at this point because I haven't gotten a chance to try this out against any of my zerg practice partners but....
wouldn't a hatch first ret-style of ZvZ (hatch first, zergling scouting, gaining a slight drone lead over time, getting a roach warren late or when banes show up) just destroy this?
edit: Thank you Mr. Bitter for making the effort to post in the strategy section, but I completely understand if you never want to post here again.
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You know your set so far back economically with this, I've found on certain maps with narrow chokes to natural like Shakuras can beat this with hatch first and mass spines. Maybe I should've pushed 100% but here's a replay of me doing the build and losing to someone who went hatch first and mass spine.
I mean here's the replay you guys can judge for yourself, I do a good job of staying in the game but I'm clearly just a step behind economically the whole time. I would've lost much earlier in the game if I hadn't played perfectly against everything this guy does. I saw the mass spine and decided to back off, but maybe I should've just threw everything at him anyways. It's possible I could've broke him.
He also went hatch first, I feel maybe I should've just went normal speedling expand against him but with 13 pool first, I felt like the speedlings would've been too late.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=210255
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On May 22 2011 00:42 ducis wrote:
I'm just theory crafting at this point because I haven't gotten a chance to try this out against any of my zerg practice partners but....
wouldn't a hatch first ret-style of ZvZ (hatch first, zergling scouting, gaining a slight drone lead over time, getting a roach warren late or when banes show up) just destroy this?
edit: Thank you Mr. Bitter for making the effort to post in the strategy section, but I completely understand if you never want to post here again.
You're 100% correct.
Don't mind the trolls.
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First I was like " :O " as I read the title of this thread. But after the VOD (or using common sense), it is clear that any build that gets a hatch earlier (with the same amount of drones) will crush this build.
Simply because of 2 facts :
1. You will have more minerals, because you have your expansion up earlier.
2. You will have more larvae, again because you have your expansion up earlier.
The problem I see with this build is that you will pretty much scout nothing up to the time you push (yeah you have your overlord, but everyone knows that a queen even of-creep is faster than an OL). And if your opponent scouts you (and reacts appropriate) he will crush your push.
I dont think this is a terrible build, it will hold most of the early agression you see in ZvZ (although I think the spine is overcompesation). But against a straight up hatch first from a viable player, that can read your build, it will just loose.
I have to say, I havent played this out (currently no ZvZ practice partners  ) and Im just platinum, but with just common sense, you can see that there is nothing about this build that breaks ZvZ 
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could this be held with a one base "Ice-fisher" type build? mass spine with queen support. It seems like just another seemingly impossible all in that we will eventually solve. Sheth did an excellent drone saturation guide, with the number of units he is making/larvae he needs to save it should be able to be scouted via this saturation based scouting method.
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let me just state this. ANY speedling expand build will beat this build with proper scouting. You can get a drone advantage against this build very easily by about ~5-10 drones and then commit all of your production to units and you will always come out on top.
However the strength of this build is the fact that you are hiding lings. if your opponent does not scout your drone count and reacts incorrectly they will flat out get stomped. on certain maps where it is hard or impossible to scout drone counts this build will be strong.
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just wow.... i can't believe people are still arguing with MrBitter over what was said in the first 2 pages of this post! It took quite a bit of self restraint for me to avoid this after the first round of trolls was fought off... but this is getting ridiculous.
I feel bad for the mods that have to moderate this kind of mindless arguing. People are just trying to help by letting others know that this build is CLEARLY inferior to other more standard builds... and others just cant seem to accept that, and have to go on these wall-o-text style rants that are completely irrelevant.
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EPT
