In a recent video [below], Destiny outlined a ZvZ build he called "unstoppable" and "wins every single ZvZ up to grandmasters". The build seems to be as follows (thanks to ItsBricksOutHere):
* 13 pool * 15.5 (drone building) gas * 16 Overlord * Pool 100% - 1 spine + Queen * Queen 3/4% Roach Warren * 20 Overlord * Roach Warren 100% Roaches with all larvae (~6) * ~32 Overlord * ~34 Expand * 36 Metabolic Boost (Remove Drones from gas at this point) * 36 Roaches (~7) * 44 Overlord (or 2) * 46 Queen (or sooner if able) * ~50 Mass Lings behind Roaches * At this point there should be about 13 Roaches and several lings. 'A move' all units to enemy base, keeping the lings behind the roaches in case of banelings. Throughout the engagement, continue to produce lings and rally them to the opponents base.
Destiny seems to think the only way to survive against this build is to do the same build. I haven't actually seen this build on ladder too much but it seems quite strong the few times I've executed it. Is this a common build in the higher leagues and what do people do when they suspect someone is doing this build?
This looks very strong. Extremely actually. I've heard doatrap and tastosis talk about a roach ling all in recently. Maybe this was it. Can't wait to try this out.
EDIT- Just tried it and it has one major flaw. They can baneling bust the roaches that serve as a wall. I did eventually win however because i massed about 24 roaches and took out his base. Just thought i would let you know.
Dont call it a 4gate or blizz will think they missed something XD
yes, this push is very strong and in the same way of a 4 gate it is extremely strong and will punish a player very harshly for making early macro mistakes (this is why 4 gate was so good, it punished mistakes the other player made during macro)
What makes it most similar to 4 gate is that you make roaches first and send them cross map and then add slings while the roaches are moving cross map, thus delivering the most possible units at the exact point in time (the slings "shorten" rush distance in a similar way to proxy pylon)
Question though, does this strategy work against protoss? I heard artosis saying during gsl that a roach ling all in against a protoss can be very powerful, especially if the protoss is greedy in expanding and assumes the zerg is powering drones.
Good control with b/ling can shut this down... lings actually do very well against roaches, and if your blings connect with the lings, it's GG.
The problem with this build, is it's a ZvZ build... The timing for this is so easily scoutable (ovvy scout) that you just throw up a b.nest and your fine.
Destiny was using this to teach one of his STUDENTS how to execute a strong strategy. Keep in mind his student was pretty terrible, and just needed help with a good strategy for ZvZ... You have to realize that Destiny is also selling his own product, so obviously he is going to hype this build for his student, to build confidence.
I don't see how this is going to hold any speedling all-in, especially with the "no scout" advice. If you watch the video, he has nothing at 5:00 but a spine and a queen.
On May 18 2011 13:33 mrfatbush wrote: Question though, does this strategy work against protoss? I heard artosis saying during gsl that a roach ling all in against a protoss can be very powerful, especially if the protoss is greedy in expanding and assumes the zerg is powering drones.
Artosis was commenting on how powerful it can be in certain situations in ZvP... That situation being, toss going 3gate sentry expo. The roaches are meat shields and sentry snipers, while the lings get up close and personal and prevent the protoss from being comfy for too long and allowing them to amass a deathball.
So to answer your question, yes, it CAN work in ZvP... but I wouldn't advise this, as its so easy to scout and the expo is SO late that any Protoss with half a brain would know to stay 1base as the zerg is obviously going to be putting on some serious pressure... (1base zerg past 21 supply in ZvP = semi-allin)
Sorry, but this is just another terrible all-in build. I don't see how this will work, ever. First off, you have no map control with this build until you move out and your opponent will always see the roach warren, making him safe to drone since you basically have no aggressive potential until you move out. From there he can just consistently scout your army size and scale with it while still having more drones and his normal tech going up. Once your attack is deflected you are left with no tech of any kind and really, will just die to any roach counter-aggression. Additionally this will not even require banelings as a response on maps like Shakuras. In fact I think just roaches off of the economic advantadge of a faster hatchery will hold this on any map. Yea, what else to say, this is just completely counter-intuitive, a zerg all-in that surrenders map control hurts my brain. This will basically only work against players that 1base baneling you or something in that fashion.
I wonder whether in zvt, will it work in maps with rocks towards the expo like in scrap station and terminus RE as some terran try to play greedily for example, expo and teching to starport on 2gas.
Another thing that is making me curious is how will it fare against 2 rax into expo?
When you will do fast ling push (11 pool), you will kill him before roaches are out. If you do 2 base +1 speedling, you will hold easily with spine or two ... so not that unbeatable. But good build anyway.
On May 18 2011 13:43 lazyo wrote: Sorry, but this is just another terrible all-in build. I don't see how this will work, ever. .
There's a youtube video to prove that it did in fact worked, watch it.
I think he means that it won't work, ever, against a competent opponent. A hallmark of the Protoss 4-gate was (is?) that your Protoss opponent could know that it was coming and still lose. This build seems definitely counterable.
On May 18 2011 13:43 lazyo wrote: Sorry, but this is just another terrible all-in build. I don't see how this will work, ever. .
There's a youtube video to prove that it did in fact worked, watch it.
What I meant was that it won't work against a competent opponent, a video of someone doing a badly executed baneling bust against this doesn't prove anything, sorry. In the same fashion I could claim 1base carrier works and support it with a video of me coaching a Gold leaguer to win with it. Next time try to argue with people instead of implying they didnt read/watch the OP.
On May 18 2011 13:43 lazyo wrote: Sorry, but this is just another terrible all-in build. I don't see how this will work, ever. .
There's a youtube video to prove that it did in fact worked, watch it.
I haven't watched the video, but I remember seeing him teaching this live, and at one point he had his student doing it against EASY AI opponents and volunteer silver/gold players... The point of the strategy forum is to discuss strategies that are viable at ALL LEVELS OF PLAY.... This strategy is simply NOT VIABLE at anything above silver/gold league, making the thread worthless and counter-intuitive.
i have apparently been doing this build close position zvz even though I stopped following destiny a while ago. It is very very strong close position where you cannot hatch first safely.
even so,
This build will lose to someone who merely goes hatch first and makes the same unit composition as you on more drones because of how late it hits.
Roach ling is the ideal unit combination in the ZvZ early-midgame (after ling bane wars) and it is the correct way to deal with this.
Finally, its possible to get pure speeding all-inned while taking your natural as you wont have your lings out yet.
It is slightly like the 4gate, not in the same regards of strength but in the regards of how the match up is. PvP is all about the 4gate, until the 3gate blink stalker came into play. Eventually there will be a way to beat this, we just gotta find it and it has to become the new standard. I see this quickly becoming the way to play ZvZ though, possibly ZvP.
EPT
