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So many people overreact to posts about builds like this. Of course this isn't an unstoppable build, but it is fairly safe vs cheese and offers a fairly potent all-in attack that can often go unscouted.
Obviously, a very good player will be constantly scouting and counting workers when possible, and when he realizes that drones aren't being made he'll stop making drones as well and mass units. If you get just a slight advantage in drones (maybe just 1-3), you two will get into a slugfest where you are slightly favoured to succeed because of your slightly better economy. If you try to get a bigger economic lead, you just die, and if you make mistakes like forget injections/overlords, you die as well.
Also, there are 2 parts to the build. The 13 pool opening is basically a 1 base roach expand opening. It is safe vs many early aggression builds, but suffers a bit economically. Altogether though, it is a reasonable opener for a lower level player to learn. The second part is cutting drones, making a round of roaches, then cutting gas and going all in with speedling. You can do this after any opening to make an allin attack, and it is up to your opponent to scout it and recognize the severity of your attack in order to properly commit to defending it.
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mid masters zerg here, will try this build.. looks nice , and im not a build order guy.. i play with concepts and plans..
its pretty hard to execute :O
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doesnt burrow roach counter it?
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If you don't believe that this build works wonders, you are either dead wrong, or much better than I am. I'm only mid-diamond, but I've used this build order for about 15 straight ZvZs and I've only lost one (my first attempt, so it wasn't fleshed out very well). This is a very, very strong all-in up until AT LEAST masters. Is it absolutely unbeatable? God no, but neither was the 4 gate, so the comparison works regardless. I just hope this continues to work for me cuz up until now ZvZ was my worst matchup and now it's basically an insta-win for me!
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You can't just mass roaches against roach/ling. Roaches are made so much more effective if lings are there as backup. The proper response to this is either ling/bling with spines, spines with mass ling, or roach/ling yourself off of a very slightly higher economy(defender's advantage). There are other ways to hold it but most involve really weird blind counters(such as 1base mutas).
Edit: Watched the replay and I think you underestimated the severity of your situation. Not only did you take your second gas too early(you need to have more drones than 22, or at least plan to have) making you unable to spend your gas, you also knew he was on 1base but droned up to 28 blindly, you simply cannot make much more than 20-22 drones against someone who is going all-in on 1 base in ZvZ. Sure, you may get away with it against super bad players, but just having enough that your mineral income is higher off of the fact that you have 4 more "close" mineral patches is what you should be aiming for.
Not only that, but you would even have held the attack if you had just spent your minerals on lings during the last half minute before the push(the fight was actually really close, might have been able to pull drones as well), instead, your units that you should have had arrived once your initial force had died. I do think the last paragraph is more important for you however, you need to realize that you being on 2base is already an advantage in "drone efficiency", you don't also need a big drone lead.
Moral of the story: Too early second gas, overdroned against someone still on 1 base, suboptimal unit composition for dealing with the threat(although not completely worthless, you did have a few lings from the earlier parts of the game).
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Ok so someone did this build to me, but put the 2nd hatch in the main instead of the natural.
Hehe, this is exactly what I do with this build, I was afraid the vid would have me in it 
The build is insta lose if your late expo is denied, so the in base hatch is the way to go. Sure its even more all in but once the chips are in the pot...
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This seems really strong but is easily scoutable.
Possible counter: try +1 lings against this. the upgrade should finish in time otherwise the enemy's roachling force won't be big enough to be a problem. (mix in some blings if you want.)
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i lost to a really quick one base spire with mutas
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I would suggest a ling/bling 1+ attack should counter this. Their is also a time where a bust at the ramp should win it for you too.
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I counter it by scouting it (the easy part) getting my expo way faster than he does, drone to ~24 (2 more than this build), then doing exactly the same as this build would (Roach/Ling), but with defender's advantage, which allows for a small economy advantage and shorter supply lines.
The tricky part is him outdroning you while you are preparing for the allin. If he's dumb and did mass drones, you can just allin him, but if he's smart he drones a little while making units. In the weirdest circumstance, you both scout eachothers units/drone counts and just stare eachother down while making small amounts of drones and units. It's weird
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This build is popular because it's easy to use, requires no understanding of the game, nor does it require any scouting or adaptation to your opponent (i.e. ideal for below GM). A miracle fix for all the areas where these players are lacking and unwilling to improve.
With that said, it's not a bad build, and it will work all the way to mid and high GM ranges. The trick to beating it with a speedling opening is to only make 8-10 lings to fake pressure, forcing some lings and the full ~6 roaches to be made from the opponent instead of a couple of extra drones.
I like to keep only 2 on gas after I confirm it's not a speedling opening (meaning about the time speedling research is started).
Go and be aggressive with the 8-10 lings (a lot of the time you can snipe the queen or some drones because the opponent is greedy and makes no lings). Use all the larva afterwards on drones including the larva from the first inject and put down a roach warren, put 3 drones on gas again, add an extra overlord. Make ~7 roaches and add another overlord. DON'T FORGET INJECT OR YOU DIE. Another round of roaches when inject finishes.
Sometimes if my attack caused some damage or disorientation in my opponent I add another 2 extra drones and only make ~5roaches in the first wave. If you screwed up and lost more lings than you should've however, don't drone, only roach.
The length of the map will give you a larva inject worth of extra defense (defender's advantage), so it's important that your mechanics don't suck, and that you have a basic understanding of the game, so that you can recognize the build with scouting and quickly adapt (so my counter guide is useless, since people here are looking for a quick fix for their flaws).
You will be at a 4-5 drone advantage to your opponent from your first larva inject (more if you forced him to make some lings with initial pressure). All you have to do now is survive -- by not missing injects and not forgetting overlords. It's a good idea to add a spine crawler the instant before you suspect he's going to move out (not too early, generally while your first round of roaches are building), as all you have to do... is survive.
The timings will be tight, and your necessary roaches will basically spawn while your opponent is at your doorstep. But it works 90%+ of the time if your execution is crisp.
If you FE against the build described in the OP. I find pure roaches and 2 spine crawlers for tanking damage to be the best response. But scouting this build in time is harder when FE:ing, as you generally scout later.
Oh, and I don't understand the need for the defensive spine crawler if you're doing an all-in build. If I face an opponent who makes a spine crawler and attempts this build, I never lose. Skip the spine.
Good build.
Cons: Won't make you actually improve.
Pros: Will mask your flaws. Will make you win more.
*Edit: You can survive even with a baneling nest opening, provided you don't actually try to baneling bust the opponent (abort that mission and drone into roach warren). Timings will be a bit tighter, but you wanna morph in 2-3-4 banes at the last possible moment.
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Rofl. I'm the opponent :D
don't make fun of my baneling bust 
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On June 03 2011 20:41 LaLuSh wrote:
This build is popular because it's easy to use, requires no understanding of the game, nor does it require any scouting or adaptation to your opponent (i.e. ideal for below GM). A miracle fix for all the areas where these players are lacking and unwilling to improve.
With that said, it's not a bad build, and it will work all the way to mid and high GM ranges. The trick to beating it with a speedling opening is to only make 8-10 lings to fake pressure, forcing some lings and the full ~6 roaches to be made from the opponent instead of a couple of extra drones.
I like to keep only 2 on gas after I confirm it's not a speedling opening (meaning about the time speedling research is started).
Go and be aggressive with the 8-10 lings (a lot of the time you can snipe the queen or some drones because the opponent is greedy and makes no lings). Use all the larva afterwards on drones including the larva from the first inject and put down a roach warren, put 3 drones on gas again, add an extra overlord. Make ~7 roaches and add another overlord. DON'T FORGET INJECT OR YOU DIE. Another round of roaches when inject finishes.
Sometimes if my attack caused some damage or disorientation in my opponent I add another 2 extra drones and only make ~5roaches in the first wave. If you screwed up and lost more lings than you should've however, don't drone, only roach.
The length of the map will give you a larva inject worth of extra defense (defender's advantage), so it's important that your mechanics don't suck, and that you have a basic understanding of the game, so that you can recognize the build with scouting and quickly adapt (so my counter guide is useless, since people here are looking for a quick fix for their flaws).
You will be at a 4-5 drone advantage to your opponent from your first larva inject (more if you forced him to make some lings with initial pressure). All you have to do now is survive -- by not missing injects and not forgetting overlords. It's a good idea to add a spine crawler the instant before you suspect he's going to move out (not too early, generally while your first round of roaches are building), as all you have to do... is survive.
The timings will be tight, and your necessary roaches will basically spawn while your opponent is at your doorstep. But it works 90%+ of the time if your execution is crisp.
If you FE against the build described in the OP. I find pure roaches and 2 spine crawlers for tanking damage to be the best response. But scouting this build in time is harder when FE:ing, as you generally scout later.
Oh, and I don't understand the need for the defensive spine crawler if you're doing an all-in build. If I face an opponent who makes a spine crawler and attempts this build, I never lose. Skip the spine.
Good build.
Cons: Won't make you actually improve.
Pros: Will mask your flaws. Will make you win more.
*Edit: You can survive even with a baneling nest opening, provided you don't actually try to baneling bust the opponent (abort that mission and drone into roach warren). Timings will be a bit tighter, but you wanna morph in 2-3-4 banes at the last possible moment.
just wanna add how helpful this is. Thanks!
edit: srry for double post, meant to edit my original
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I speedling counter attack seems like it may be an issue, especially if all you have defending your main is a queen and a spinecrawler.
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if you scout this just pressure with lings to force more roaches/zerglings early, the guy doing this all in has no map control, get a couple mroe drones from first inject and then start roach production. force him to leave lings behind or stay back with a small ling force that is threatening counter attack if he moves out, if you have the drone lead you should have by now, then you will just get so far ahead that this becomes useless.
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It's a really good build against hatch first. You see the pool first opener, and assume that the game will play out like this: He's aggressive -> you hold it -> you now have an eco advantage, and go into the midgame. Except, it doesn't play out like that at all. You get few roaches to hold what you assume will be pressure, and then he builds a ton of drones. Now he's ahead on drones and has a bunch of roaches, and two queens, and then you get hit with a very, very tough to defend push.
That said, I've found that spines are the answer if you're doing a regular hatch first into roaches. I'm not sure though, if you're both executing well, who'll have the drone advantage. It's pretty close.
Also, props to Lalush for dropping the thought hammer. Care to give such insight on hatch first vs the destiny build?
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On June 03 2011 20:41 LaLuSh wrote:
This build is popular because it's easy to use, requires no understanding of the game, nor does it require any scouting or adaptation to your opponent (i.e. ideal for below GM). A miracle fix for all the areas where these players are lacking and unwilling to improve.
With that said, it's not a bad build, and it will work all the way to mid and high GM ranges. The trick to beating it with a speedling opening is to only make 8-10 lings to fake pressure, forcing some lings and the full ~6 roaches to be made from the opponent instead of a couple of extra drones.
I like to keep only 2 on gas after I confirm it's not a speedling opening (meaning about the time speedling research is started).
Go and be aggressive with the 8-10 lings (a lot of the time you can snipe the queen or some drones because the opponent is greedy and makes no lings). Use all the larva afterwards on drones including the larva from the first inject and put down a roach warren, put 3 drones on gas again, add an extra overlord. Make ~7 roaches and add another overlord. DON'T FORGET INJECT OR YOU DIE. Another round of roaches when inject finishes.
Sometimes if my attack caused some damage or disorientation in my opponent I add another 2 extra drones and only make ~5roaches in the first wave. If you screwed up and lost more lings than you should've however, don't drone, only roach.
The length of the map will give you a larva inject worth of extra defense (defender's advantage), so it's important that your mechanics don't suck, and that you have a basic understanding of the game, so that you can recognize the build with scouting and quickly adapt (so my counter guide is useless, since people here are looking for a quick fix for their flaws).
You will be at a 4-5 drone advantage to your opponent from your first larva inject (more if you forced him to make some lings with initial pressure). All you have to do now is survive -- by not missing injects and not forgetting overlords. It's a good idea to add a spine crawler the instant before you suspect he's going to move out (not too early, generally while your first round of roaches are building), as all you have to do... is survive.
The timings will be tight, and your necessary roaches will basically spawn while your opponent is at your doorstep. But it works 90%+ of the time if your execution is crisp.
If you FE against the build described in the OP. I find pure roaches and 2 spine crawlers for tanking damage to be the best response. But scouting this build in time is harder when FE:ing, as you generally scout later.
Oh, and I don't understand the need for the defensive spine crawler if you're doing an all-in build. If I face an opponent who makes a spine crawler and attempts this build, I never lose. Skip the spine.
Good build.
Cons: Won't make you actually improve.
Pros: Will mask your flaws. Will make you win more.
*Edit: You can survive even with a baneling nest opening, provided you don't actually try to baneling bust the opponent (abort that mission and drone into roach warren). Timings will be a bit tighter, but you wanna morph in 2-3-4 banes at the last possible moment.
Thanks, found it really helpful.
Question, what about the speedling +1 opening to force alot more from your oppenent?
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EPT
