This thread is so full of misinformation and flawed theory crafting.
On May 18 2011 13:12 TheLOLas wrote:
This looks very strong. Extremely actually. I've heard doatrap and tastosis talk about a roach ling all in recently. Maybe this was it. Can't wait to try this out.
EDIT- Just tried it and it has one major flaw. They can baneling bust the roaches that serve as a wall. I did eventually win however because i massed about 24 roaches and took out his base. Just thought i would let you know.
No, one cannot possibly baneling bust 6 roaches on a ramp and have enough troops to do any damage this early. What game are you playing?
On May 18 2011 13:48 Pamposek wrote:
When you will do fast ling push (11 pool), you will kill him before roaches are out. If you do 2 base +1 speedling, you will hold easily with spine or two ... so not that unbeatable.
But good build anyway.
You will most certainly not kill a 13 pool with a fast spine with an 11-pool. What were you thinking?
On May 18 2011 18:10 ayadew wrote:
There's a window where baneling can just blow up your shit
User was warned for this post
NOPE! Baneling openings are crap vs roach openings.
On May 19 2011 03:28 Ruyguy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 14:16 MrBitter wrote:
Destiny's trolling you guys.
1 base roach will lose to 2 base roach every time....
this is 2 base roach..
2 base roach is when you build 2 bases and then go roach. In this build he goes 1 base roach into 2 base speedlings.
On May 19 2011 02:08 tdynasty wrote:This build can work in Diamond and Masters.
I actually lost 2 games recently to Roach ling all Ins.
One of them was on Shakuras with a Nydus Worm. I killed the worm but 5 roaches came out followed by a second nydus.
The main reason why this works, If me (protoss) Is playing extra greedy and still building infrastructure/upgrades around 50 food.
I had maybe 3 sentries covering my front and 2 stalkers backing them up.
I pulled probes and stalkers to hit the Nydus. But failed miserably.
The second map this build works on I think is Scrap station.
Where the protoss can often early expand.
The part where this build becomes good. Is you will scout initially, and see a zerg expansion with lings going. So you say, standard zerg macro.
WIth that being said the all in is now no longer detectable. Because on the Roach warren is out, the zerg starts massing units while you are probe building and laying down buildings.
I think this is a very strong build against protoss who go for anything under a 30 food nexus.
Otherwise it can be countered by good FFs and good reinforcements.
In ZvZ. Whatever I can't comment!
However this specific build order could use tweaking versus protoss. I don't see why get a 36 Queen... I just like the Concept of massing units early off 2 hatches for ling/roach Hatch tech pressure.
Why are you giving your opinion on a zvz-build, based of a pvz experience where you faced a entirely different build? You are basically saying this is good because roaches are good in pvz when you get a bunch of them in your base with nydrus so that they can't be force fielded of. And that translates to early-midgame zvz.
On May 19 2011 10:15 Attica wrote:
This build doesn't seem that bad. If anything you should be able to kill drones with some speedlings and bring it back to an even game if the other play does go 2 base roach. So what it does is make yourself safe vs early cheese. Anyone saying mass speedling beats this doesn't know what a baneling nest is. You guys make it seem like someone can't deviate from the build if they need to.
You cannot scout that the opponent is going mass-speedlings until you get speedlings yourself, as speedlings pretty much denies scouting. And if you were to go back and put up a baneling nest then you will miss the timing.
On May 19 2011 10:29 DuncanIdaho wrote:Idk, I think I played a game recently against a guy who was doing something like this, but he waited for carapace. Anyways, i did a 13 hatch 15 pool gas at 40 spanishiwa, and went lair and rw with upgrades and then roached like crazy, and when he reached my base, I had more roaches and he accused me of hacking, lol. But the thing is, I was on more patches, thus making more income, and i had 2 queens with 2 hatches sooner. Idk though, perhaps had he left his base with his roaches when destiny suggests, it may work. Although, I also hear word on the street is anyone who pushes with slow roaches is vulnerable to a speedling backstab, as the slow roaches take forever to get back and defend, though he did wait to push until he also had speedlings on the field... Idk, seems strong, though I have a feeling, like the 4 gate, it can be held if scouted, and maybe going bling&roach may work at holding it off, with a few spines and maybe moving queens down as you see them pushing out.
Worth a try, but it's gotta be spot on, with good micro. We'll see what happens, but if it's truly unstoppable, I have a feeling it will be patched, though i refuse to believe anything is unstoppable... Time will tell
Your post is irrelevant. The timing you faced was nothing like the build in the OP. That's like saying you beat a 4-gate, but he waited for carriers before attacking.
On May 19 2011 12:02 Lightningbullet wrote:
I think an early zealot scout(s) will annoy some drones and disrupt your play for a while. Or you can just go 2 base and burrow BANELINGS!!! :D
User was temp banned from Strategy Forum for this post.
Thank god for that ban.
On May 19 2011 21:45 Tropical Bob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 12:36 michaelhasanalias wrote:On May 18 2011 13:40 Shahrazad wrote:
I don't see how this is going to hold any speedling all-in, especially with the "no scout" advice. If you watch the video, he has nothing at 5:00 but a spine and a queen.
I've done speedling openers as default in zvz for months, and that spine plus queen, and the roach timing will hold against whatever you can do at any time.
I don't like destiny at all, but this is a very strong build (which I guess is fine since it's not his build or idea).
I don't see any point in the game where any speedling all-in could beat that opener if the defender has some competent level of drone/queen micro.
If you've got him restricted to having Queens and Drones huddled around the Spine in the mineral line, that means you have "control" of his base. His first 6 Roaches may not be able to wall off (Depending on whether you have enough Speedlings to threaten them) and stop the Lings from massing in. Also, if those Roaches move off the ramp to defend the natural Hatch, Speedling Surround, Inc.; if they stay on the ramp, that's quite a heavy denial of Larvae if the Hatch is lost.
So that means there should be a timing to contain him entirely to his mineral line before/when the first 6 Roaches pop, and possibly another timing when he tries to expand if you miss the first one.
Personally, any time I see a Roach wall, I immediately go into mass Ling contain mode and work towards +1 Carapace -> +1 Melee, or even straight +1 Melee if I didn't spot an Evolution Chamber. Both will most likely not finish fast enough from the first scout to the push, but if you can even slow down the push at the beginning, it's going to lose a lot of steam methinks.
You are basing your speedling all-in argument on one student's first time with this build with (understandably) sloppy execution. In reality speedlings cannot break 1 base roach and if you expand and sees that he has enough speedlings to overwhelm the expansion, then he will be behind in drones, so just cancel and wait until you have enough ling support to take it.
On May 20 2011 05:50 Torte de Lini wrote:
This is a terrible build and instantly recognized.
The biggest problem with this build are two things: 1. It's detectable and 2. Any opponent who expos faster than you and sees you coming (big grace to the overlords) will just start massing roaches. True, this might work on close-ground positions, but cross-map or cross-air just nullifies this attack.
An 8 pool stops this because the spine crawlers is only 65% up and your queen is almost popping by the time the lings have already taking out two to three drones.
Additionally, when you try to expo, mass lings pretty much destroy your roaches and denies your expo, preventing you from actually following up into your masterful push.
I've tried it 8 times and even when done perfectly or with slight alterations, two things occur: 1. the opponent simply gets a slightly better economy than you or 2. he simply out numbers your lings and roaches by a severe amount. The video is terrible because the guy engaged his roaches into destiny's built-army letting the lings get a surround.
Back yourself up to a wall, funnel the lings and you pretty much destroyed half his army. Additional lings are coming in for support, but at the same time your roach reinforcements are already incoming.
How this could work beyond Diamond is beyond my understanding. This isn't the 4-gate because it leaves too much time for your opponent to see you only producing units and respond accurately (in most cases, a lot of roaches with soon +1 attack).
Additionally, getting ling and banelings + 1 is nothing unusual to break a wall of what, 6 roaches (by the time it is done)
8-pool is completely shut down vs 13p spine crawler. In fact, 13p spine crawler might be the mathematically optimal blind counter against a 8p.
Even if you take out 2-3 drones he's still ahead by a large margin as you will only have 9 drones with 8-pool.
On May 20 2011 22:06 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 14:59 MrBitter wrote:
I really want to reiterate just how annoying and absolutely incorrect some of the statements being made in this thread are.
"PLAYER X" DOES A ROACH/SPEEDLING ATTACK DOES NOT = "PLAYER X IS DOING THIS BUILD"
Let's make a comparison to PvZ really quickly.
Protoss A goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, cancels his Nexus and attacks.
Protoss B goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, DOES NOT CANCEL, and still attacks.
Are both players doing the same build?
Absolutely and unequivocally not.
Obviously the builds are different. One player expanded, and the other player did not.
IF THE NEXUS CANCELLING PLAYER EXPANDS LATER, IS HE NOW DOING THE SAME THING!?
The answer is still no. They are very different builds, and have MASSIVE economic differences.
In ZvZ, if Player A goes 15 hatch into roach speedling, and Player B goes roach speedling after expanding around 30 supply, the economies of the two players will be massively different.
For the love of all that is good in this world, please stop fucking saying that "JULY DID THIS SAME BUILD BUT HE WENT HATCH FIRST!!!!"
If July went hatch first, his build shares ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with this one.
And for what it's worth, the entire reason that July went hatch first is because its about 50,000x stronger to go roaches off of 2 bases than it is off of one.
>.<
Your vids are really good, but this is totally uncalled for and is just a bunch of whining.
You have to be referring to my post, since there are only two posts in this entire thread talking about that game, one of them being mine.
I was making some toast during the opening moments of the game and must have missed the hatch first, but both the attack, roach/drone/ling count and timing looked very similar.
They are different means to get there, but it's not a far stretch to say that they are the same builds.
Get off your high horse and go watch the game.
Their economies are likely to be different but aren't necessarily going to be different. It depends when and where you cut, and his build hit with the pretty much the same force at the same time as the one described in the OP.
It's great that 15hatch opening is not the same as a 13 pool. Thanks for that high level commentary. The map he did that on is large enough to allow for a safe 15hatch, and so he took some creative license with the general theme of the build.
Also your analogy is absolutely wrong and off-base, as your protoss analog changes the outcome, whereas July simply changed the means to get there.
edit: If you have something more constructive to add beyond "guys, 15 hatch is different from 13 pool", I'd be glad to hear it though. All the lessons you buy from those high level players must give you some better perspective on a strategy that seems to be dominating zvz lately.
You watch the game. As I recall, July got far more drones than 20 and the attack was considerably later.
On May 20 2011 23:56 FeyFey wrote:and then there will be the burrowed banes on the ramp ^^. Really thought this would be a discussion if a 2 hatches with 2 queens is like a 4 gate if you stop drone production (i would say totally, every zerg is 4 gating such cheesers ! )
Anyway i like my fast mutas in zvz not many but enough to kill the queens and force some anti air or too early infestors. As long as i can hold my ramp ground is unimportant anyway. and without queens 2 hatch < 1 hatch with queen. And because of the new trend of overlord spreading your opponent will be supply blocked for ages. free win achieved ^^. (i know it abuses the current zvz style to be effectiv but thats life
)
To that build
zerg wallin with spines will be really effectiv against this (not enough roaches to deal with the buildings). Of course if naturals are wide open its hard to fend that off (unless you hatch in main and build some extra drones for the same production and tech fast), but the other zerg will have the same problem of being unable to defend their natural.
Other then that i would say go for roaches and keep the banelings in the back. Lings are unable to attack the roaches and you can snipe of his roaches, it will be easy to get atleast 4 lings with one baneling in such a fight to gain advantages slowly.
Well if you expect mass roaches in a zvz early game i guess its really a hard to stop build.
But it would be interesting to see how 7 roaches with lings engange a wall of 9 roaches with some banelings able to run past the own roaches and of course with more lings coming up.
PS: spine + burrowed baneling = super evil mass ling trap ! xD (only if both have managed to reach t2 though out of ling baneling wars. and are slowly switching over to roach infestor)
Fast burrowed banelings + preemptive spine crawlers and no expo? You will have virtually no economy and die to every other build than the one in the OP. And the OP build will still be miles ahead in eco as burrowed banelings/spines have no attack potential.
On May 21 2011 00:10 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
This build is stupid. You're gonna be powerful with those 6 roaches and a spine defensively but you have no way of stopping our opponent from building up a massive economy. Since you only have 6 roaches, I could've just take drones off gas and defend with speedlings while droning. Then I can immediately build and saturate all 4 gas and get infestor before this build.
The build actually counts on precisely that response. 6-8 roaches to tank damage + lings are a great counter to mass lings and there is no way you can have a massive economy op in time to stop this.
On May 21 2011 01:02 EvilZergling wrote:I have beat this build repeatedly against several players that have adopted it recently.
It's far from unstoppable and actually laughable against the 9pool build.
* 9 - pool
* 10 - Overlord
* 10 - 6 Zerglings (3pairs)
* 13 - Queen (1) --> Inject
* Drone to 17
* 17 - Overlord
* @Queen (1) complete, Queen #2 + Extractor (1)
* @Queen #2 complete, Queen #3 + Creep Tumor
* Move both queens to block ramp from counters/all-ins
* Drone to 24
* 24 - 3 drones in gas + Roach Warren
* @Roach warren complete, 5 Roaches
* @Roaches complete, expand and use roaches to defend natural while first 2 queens continue to block ramp, possibly add a spine. Evo Chamber (1)
* @100 gas, Lair
* @100 gas, +1 attack
* @100 gas, Roach Speed
* @+1 attk 25% completed, cut drones, mass roaches
* @Upgrades near complete, go attack.
*Note: from here you pretty much gauge your next move. If you feel you can win then continue to reinforce with units otherwise drone up and drop an infestation pit and possibly 2 more spines.
Used this build in practice games against this said destiny build and smashed it with 100% success rate.
LOL! 9-pool vs 13p spine crawler? That's close to the worst response possible. It will do next to no damage. The op build is a low eco build, but will still be ahead of you due to getting a 9-pool and teching to fast. Show reps please.
On May 25 2011 02:16 starojda wrote:just registered to enlighten you all with my experience with this build
i have tried it for the second time (first was quite succesful
) and had really hard time to win the game!
map was scrap station, oponent went for +1 roach push. his roaches got to my base in the time when i stopped producing roaches (got around 12) a massing lings. My army died but reinforcing lings managed (with queen support) to hold his push and he finally retreated. I start to drone, made my +1 range and pushed back. He went for mutas, which i ignored and rampaged his expansion and several buildings in main. Then he got around 8 mutas and i had to fortify my base - i had around 6 queens and spores everywhere to secure my lead
. He tried to harrass, but i hold and with lings completed the destruction in his base.
So beware +1 roaches
If the opponent got +1 roaches and got to your base on scrap station and almost killed you _before_ you pushed out you were clearly doing the build wrong.
On May 25 2011 15:13 guitarizt wrote:
9 pool or earlier rapes gives this build problems. If they hatch first the allin is really easy to hold if they know the build and timings. I like the 9 pool build the french guy posted on here for zvz and that works well against the build in the op.
No, 13-pool spine demolishes 9-pool lings. It's like the optimal counter.
On May 25 2011 15:26 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 13:44 yoonshik95 wrote:On May 18 2011 13:12 TheLOLas wrote:
This looks very strong. Extremely actually. I've heard doatrap and tastosis talk about a roach ling all in recently. Maybe this was it. Can't wait to try this out.
EDIT- Just tried it and it has one major flaw. They can baneling bust the roaches that serve as a wall. I did eventually win however because i massed about 24 roaches and took out his base. Just thought i would let you know.
Wrong. Roaches are neither light units nor structures, so they are resistant against banelings. Roaches are classified as armored. It would not be cost effective at all to try to baneling bust through wall of roaches.
Yes, it's not cost effective, but if you break the wall with banelings you can make it cost effective afterwards by killing everything.
You need 8 Banelings (400m/200g) to destroy a roach wall (225m/75g), but if the opponent doesn't have enough units, breaking it still wins you the game. I still don't like baneling busts, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a valid strategy, even against roach walls.
It's not a solid strategy as much as a desperate all-in to make up for the fact that you are at a BO-disadvantage by going banelings against roaches.
On May 25 2011 23:57 kickinhead wrote:
It's indeed a very strong build and you're very right in saying that it's close to a 4-gate, cuz it's very aggressive, but it's not technically an all-in, cuz you can still play a Macro-game afterwards.
But just like 4-gate, when scouted (look for 1 gas only, no Lair, no Evo-Chamber/Baneling-Nest, roach Warren, saved up larva until Roach Warren finishes, all Queen-Energy spent on Injects etc. It's not easy to scout, but if you get in a good scout or read the Zerg well, it's easy to figure out what he's trying to do) it can be hold off. Of course it's harder on some Maps, but that's also true for a 4-gate and it kinda got out of fashion too.
Protoss basically can hold it off even if they don't scout it, by having perfect Force-Fields and by playing defensively (3-gate-expand into Forge with maybe a cannon or two). There are also quite heavy Counter-builds, like Dark-shrine into 3-gate-expand or 1- or 2-Gate + Starport for Voidrays into expansion.
It's a zvz build ffs. And even if it was a zvp build, how are you supposed to scout "no lair" with roaches on the ramp?
On May 27 2011 18:11 .Mthex- wrote:
Here are the issues I see with the build:
-Baneling busts
-No initial zerglings built, so little scouting information and even worse, the other zerg will see no zerglings built, making your expansion even more susceptible
-8 pool
-Straight roaches can easily lose to mass speedling, even walled
-you can get out mutalisks/infestors (if rushed) before this push would occur, and there is no initial pressure possibilities to punish it.
... and thats all i can really think of for now, but those would have to be the major flaws behind the strategy, and of course no strategy is perfect, but thats a list of extremely easy counters.
Baneling busts, 8-pools and rushed mutas is not good against this build. Wtf.
On May 27 2011 20:47 XwipeoutX wrote:I just won 4 games in a row with this build (high plat), thanks for sharing - ZvZ used to be my weakest match up. The games I played weren't even close.
One question: After a short time, my minerals start to bank up - getting to about 600 after a couple of injects. What should I do with this moneys? Should I put some back on gas, just in case of the rare event of it being held? Or get a 3rd hatch/some queens?
Here's an example:
http://replayfu.com/r/FQqZqm - you can see I'm floating a fair few minerals. I got supply blocked at 18/18 (forgetting 16 ovy...lol), and forgot to transfer drones - but that should leave me with LESS money, yet I'm still floating...
You should build less drones. If you don't miss any inject. 20-25 drones barley supports 2 base lings.
On May 29 2011 06:16 StatikKhaos wrote:
easy to beat if you take a relatively fast expo and then just build mass ling,
i rolf'd my friend who did this, while i was banking 2k, and i also build 3 spine crawlers that didnt even get to attack, so its actually pretty awful if its scouted
There is no way, even theoretically, you can hold this while banking 2k. You and your friend suck.
This thread should be stickied as a warning for people.
EPT
