[D] Zerg equivalent to a 4-Gate

On May 18 2011 13:33 mrfatbush wrote:
Question though, does this strategy work against protoss? I heard artosis saying during gsl that a roach ling all in against a protoss can be very powerful, especially if the protoss is greedy in expanding and assumes the zerg is powering drones.

On May 18 2011 13:43 lazyo wrote:
Sorry, but this is just another terrible all-in build. I don't see how this will work, ever.
.

On May 18 2011 13:49 apm66 wrote:

There's a youtube video to prove that it did in fact worked, watch it.

On May 18 2011 13:49 apm66 wrote:

There's a youtube video to prove that it did in fact worked, watch it.

On May 18 2011 13:49 apm66 wrote:

There's a youtube video to prove that it did in fact worked, watch it.

On May 18 2011 14:16 MrBitter wrote:
Destiny's trolling you guys.

1 base roach will lose to 2 base roach every time....

On May 18 2011 14:21 PR4Y wrote:



It's not an intentional troll... he just has a following of people that will take anything he say's as the gospel itself.

On May 18 2011 14:58 Antego wrote:


I don't think trolling the people that gives him money is a good plan; I don't think he is trolling at all. Anyway, if the troll is not intentionnal, it's just not troll; there is no such thing as unintentional bullshit.

On May 18 2011 15:02 MrBitter wrote:

But Destiny does not think its an unstoppable build. He's very aware of the build's shortcomings, and of the fact that those shortcomings are irrelevant in the lower leagues.

On May 18 2011 14:58 Antego wrote:


I don't think trolling the people that gives him money is a good plan; I don't think he is trolling at all. Anyway, if the troll is not intentionnal, it's just not troll; there is no such thing as unintentional bullshit.

On May 18 2011 15:02 MrBitter wrote:
He's doing it with good intentions...

He's taking low level players and showing them a solid 1 base build that doesn't revolve around solid mechanics or good micro...

Its a free pass from bronze to gold, and by saying "zomg its unbeatable", he's selling it very well......

So saying he's trolling might be an oversimplifcation...

But Destiny does not think its an unstoppable build. He's very aware of the build's shortcomings, and of the fact that those shortcomings are irrelevant in the lower leagues.

edit: To be clear, I'm not trying to dump on Destiny. He's a far better player than me, but this build isn't anything like some bandwagoners are trying to believe...

On May 18 2011 15:31 Morfildur wrote:
Looks like destiny is the reason why my ZvZs got _even more_ annoying. I think the last 2 zerg i played against did this build, the number of roaches and lings fits, though probably the timing was slower and the micro worse because it was just diamond.

I always open spanishiwa style 16h, 15p, no gas, 4 queens, lots of spinecrawlers.
The first game it killed me because i was at ~60 drones to his ~35-40, the second time i held it with 4-5 spine crawlers, 4 queens, lots of slowlings, slowling reinforcements and some transfuses because i scouted in time that he wasn't droning at his expo, so i built lings instead of drones.

The build seems to be really strong, especially since the expo makes it look like you are going for a macro game while you are instead doing a very strong attack (wouldn't call it all-in, as you have the expo and an ok-ish amount of drones), so the opponent has to scout very well to check if you are really droning on your expo. It is imho still not impossible to defend while staying economically ahead.

I think that makes it quite a strong build and the comparision to 4gate seems quite ok, as 4gate usually also relies on the opponent not scouting the 4th gate. It's probably even closer to MCs cancel-4gate build due to the expo.

On May 18 2011 15:31 Morfildur wrote:
Looks like destiny is the reason why my ZvZs got _even more_ annoying. I think the last 2 zerg i played against did this build, the number of roaches and lings fits, though probably the timing was slower and the micro worse because it was just diamond.

I always open spanishiwa style 16h, 15p, no gas, 4 queens, lots of spinecrawlers.
The first game it killed me because i was at ~60 drones to his ~35-40, the second time i held it with 4-5 spine crawlers, 4 queens, lots of slowlings, slowling reinforcements and some transfuses because i scouted in time that he wasn't droning at his expo, so i built lings instead of drones.

The build seems to be really strong, especially since the expo makes it look like you are going for a macro game while you are instead doing a very strong attack (wouldn't call it all-in, as you have the expo and an ok-ish amount of drones), so the opponent has to scout very well to check if you are really droning on your expo. It is imho still not impossible to defend while staying economically ahead.

I think that makes it quite a strong build and the comparision to 4gate seems quite ok, as 4gate usually also relies on the opponent not scouting the 4th gate. It's probably even closer to MCs cancel-4gate build due to the expo.

On May 18 2011 16:15 IzieBoy wrote:


May I ask why you need to have 60 drones on 2 bases? Were you getting ready to double expand? .... *proceeds to have a heart attack*

On May 18 2011 16:27 Xapti wrote:
This build gets likely beaten or almost certainly beaten by:
• burrow roaches
• mass speedling (with expand of course) — as long as there's no banes
• massed +1 attack roaches (can expand at same time but will have superior army composition)

As a person who's beaten players better than destiny in ZvZ (top 100), I am quite comfortable saying I would win vs this strategy.

In fact, as far as I know, destiny isn't even that good at ZvZ, or at least isn't known to have above-average ZvZ.

On May 18 2011 16:44 Morfildur wrote:


Yes, iirc i had just broken down the rocks to the third on Xel'Naga and was about to take the third when the attack hit... but anyways, my biggest problem is also that i tend to overdrone, which is nice in the midgame because i usually am far ahead in that stage, but it often kills me in the early game (as was the case in the first game against this build that i mentioned).

Still, drones can be used to morph into spinecrawlers, evo chambers to block the ramp, extractors or to maynard to the third... and if the opponent kills a few, it doesn't hurt as much :p

Against this almost-fake expand roach/ling aggression it's still a mistake to drone as much as i do :p



Uhm... the build in the OP uses a second hatch at the expo... so unless you mean "get a fast third", your post doesn't make sense.

On May 18 2011 16:52 Tobberoth wrote:

Cool sneak bragging, but destiny specifically says "up to grandmaster". Not "will always win against top 100 ZvZs".

On May 18 2011 17:05 Immolate wrote:
what do you do when they get like 20 lings and start poking your natural? because the roaches you have to leave at your ramp and they can just run the lings back and forth poking your natural hatch while its building so you end up having to cancel it and they already have their natural up. If you send a few roaches and try to fend them off then they surround your roaches and kill them. If you send them all then they have chance to run up ramp. I'm probably missing something here if everyone think its that good of a build

On May 18 2011 18:26 Xapti wrote:

Destiny is not grandmaster a far as I know and has no right to say a build can win to grandmaster. I am not a grandmaster player either, or even above destiny's level. In fact, that's important information to mention which I left out inadvertently, that helps to back up the reputability of my knowledge (which is the sole intention of the mention in the first place of course).

When I say that those builds should work, I'm meaning that they should work at levels that aren't just at the top.

On May 18 2011 14:58 Antego wrote:
there is no such thing as unintentional bullshit.

On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...

eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it

so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it

On May 19 2011 00:19 MoreFaSho wrote:


The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal.

On May 19 2011 00:26 archonOOid wrote:
An earlier zergling all-in completely busts this build, gg

reason, if the opponent attacks while you are investing in roach tech and has no or 6 roaches, the opponent has significantly more lings that beat this composition. Maybe good unit placement can suffice but 2nd hatchery will die.

On May 19 2011 00:28 dan1mal wrote:


but its not a 1base..
if you had taken the time to read the op it clearly involves an expo. And while 34 might be late, in ZvZ games can stay on 1 base for up to 40-50 food.so a 34 food expo isnt that uncommon

On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:


o.O The sheer volume of misinformation that's flying around in here is both damaging to the community and sad...

Eventually expanding doesn't really qualify as 2-base play.

13 pool, 15 gas, blind spine crawler into 5 roaches and an eventual expand IS a 1-base build, and its going to lose badly to any fast expanding player that does something similar.

If you do this roach-expand, and your opponent goes 15 hatch, makes 2 more drones than you, and then starts pumping the same units, you're going to lose every single time.

And its going to be EASY for your opponent to do that, because he's going to have a handful of lings in your natural, and an overlord checking out your ramp.

This is a 22 drone all-in. That's not even enough to saturate a single base.

Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time.

Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time.

On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:

Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time.

On May 18 2011 13:06 Stam wrote:

* Queen 3/4% Roach Warren

On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:


o.O The sheer volume of misinformation that's flying around in here is both damaging to the community and sad...

Eventually expanding doesn't really qualify as 2-base play.

13 pool, 15 gas, blind spine crawler into 5 roaches and an eventual expand IS a 1-base build, and its going to lose badly to any fast expanding player that does something similar.

If you do this roach-expand, and your opponent goes 15 hatch, makes 2 more drones than you, and then starts pumping the same units, you're going to lose every single time.

And its going to be EASY for your opponent to do that, because he's going to have a handful of lings in your natural, and an overlord checking out your ramp.

This is a 22 drone all-in. That's not even enough to saturate a single base.

Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time.

On May 19 2011 00:58 dan1mal wrote:

it obviously is a 1base build in that all of its production is pretty much done of the initial hatch. but there IS an expo, and therefore u cant say its easily scoutable because its 1 base. If u hang around long enough to see what comes out of the eggs, then yes. you'll see the 1base coming by a mile. but then when your doing this build your obviously trying to deny that info...

On May 19 2011 01:35 MoreFaSho wrote:

Thank you for defending my honor MrBitter even though we are fierce rivals in our master's division. I look foward to meeting you at dallas. This concept is lost on many weaker players. I should develop a 3-base roach all-in where I build a lot of roaches, throw down 2 random hatcheries and then attack.

On May 19 2011 01:43 dan1mal wrote:


again, your not reading, I never said it was a 2 base push. I said that u cant just scout the fact that there isnt a natural.. Since there is..

+ u cant just go around calling people "weaker players". Since you've never played vs 90% of people ur talking with here, and you wont know

On May 19 2011 01:43 dan1mal wrote:


again, your not reading, I never said it was a 2 base push. I said that u cant just scout the fact that there isnt a natural.. Since there is..

+ u cant just go around calling people "weaker players". Since you've never played vs 90% of people ur talking with here, and you wont know

On May 18 2011 14:16 MrBitter wrote:
Destiny's trolling you guys.

1 base roach will lose to 2 base roach every time....

On May 19 2011 01:49 MrBitter wrote:


You can scout the ramp, where the roaches are blocking.

You can scout the gasses, where you can see "oh he's mined exactly 300 and stopped".

You can scout the mineral line, where you can literally count all 22 of the drones be builds.

And you can see when he pushes down to expand........

There's a lot of information in there.

"Oh he went fast roach. No baneling pressure."

"Oh, he's blocking his ramp. He wants to hide something."

"Oh, he's only mined 300 gas. No lair, no mutas."

"Oh, he's stopped droning. Looks like an all-in."

On May 19 2011 01:50 Shahrazad wrote:

I understand you're just trying to defend your god and savior, Destiny. You don't do him any favors with your awful english in every post. Yes, you can scout that there isn't a natural. The eventual creation of a natural is of no consequence: 7RR expands faster than this, and nobody would call that "two base play." In the early game ZvZ, you scout for drone count, pool timing, an expo, and a roach warren. If you don't see a hatch out by around 22 supply, you know some all-in is coming.

Your comments about this build being acceptable when it is auto-loss at higher level is just plain absurd. Maybe some sort of cannon rush works at lower levels, or maybe a carrier rush does too. Does that mean that it's something good to teach, when at high silver you have to toss it out?

Your comments about scouting leading to winning also betray your complete ignorance of the game. There are solid builds which are not auto-loss if scouted (14/14, 15 hatch, etc). They try and force a mid-game through solid play. An opening that is easily scoutable, doesn't hit until 8:30-9:00, and is auto-loss if scouted, is just a non-starter.

On May 19 2011 01:53 dan1mal wrote:


im not saying the build is unscoutable, nothing is nor am I saying this buildis half decent, im just saying that you cant argue its bad because u can scout it and when you do build X,Y,and Z beat it. because that applies to every build in the game.

On May 19 2011 01:55 Shahrazad wrote:

No, it doesn't. You need a better understanding of the definition of "solid play."

On May 19 2011 01:53 dan1mal wrote:
im not saying the build is unscoutable, nothing is nor am I saying this buildis half decent, im just saying that you cant argue its bad because u can scout it and when you do build X,Y,and Z beat it. because that applies to every build in the game.

On May 19 2011 01:53 dan1mal wrote:
im doing no such thing, I think destiny is a bad player and an attention whore, and ill never do this build because its less good than just outmacro-ing. all im saying is that people are giving retarded and useless arguments as to why its bad.

And im sorry if my 2nd language isnt up to par. Wanna converse in dutch instead?
Last edit: 2011-05-19 01:58:22

On May 19 2011 02:00 dan1mal wrote:


every single timing push in the game has a counter, every single timing push in the game can be scouted, therefore every single build in the game can be ignored because they can be countered by "scouting and reacting" ?

no, not really

On May 19 2011 02:01 chadissilent wrote:

No, this build is VERY easily scoutable. When they stay on 1 base for so long (even if you can't see gas timings), it's one of 3 things: Roach ling all-in, Muta, fast infestor. 2 base roach ling with an evo (to drop emergency spores when your ovies around the map see his mutas) will beat that pretty much 100% of the time.

If you have a solid opener, all you need to do is transition once you see the roaches at his ramp and you pretty much have the game won. I was practicing with a friend (top master's player) and he kept trying this build against me and won exactly 0 of the 6 we played.

On May 19 2011 01:53 dan1mal wrote:
nor am I saying this build is half decent.

On May 19 2011 02:02 Shahrazad wrote:

You shouldn't edit your post after somebody has replied to it. I replied to your post at 1:55.

On May 19 2011 02:00 dan1mal wrote:

every single timing push in the game has a counter, every single timing push in the game can be scouted, therefore every single build in the game can be ignored because they can be countered by "scouting and reacting" ?

no, not really

On May 19 2011 02:06 redwingxviii wrote:


you might agree with your dissenters more than you think - at least from my point of view, i think some people are saying "it's not unbeatable" - which would be in agreement with you.

Whether it's really strong or not is probably secondary to the point above

On May 19 2011 02:09 dan1mal wrote:


I agree its not unbeatable, but half the people here seem to think im trying to defend this build. When in reality, as stated atleast twice before, im just saying people are giving retarded arguments as to why its bad

On May 19 2011 02:16 Shahrazad wrote:

Please stop referring to the reasonable arguments of those with whom you disagree as "retarded."

On May 19 2011 02:17 dan1mal wrote:


the argument: the counter to this build counters it. Is retarded in my book

On May 19 2011 02:17 dan1mal wrote:


the argument: the counter to this build counters it. Is retarded in my book

On May 19 2011 02:22 MrBitter wrote:


Who made that statement?

... This thread is devolving quickly into desperate arguments and silly flames.

On May 18 2011 14:16 MrBitter wrote:
Destiny's trolling you guys.

1 base roach will lose to 2 base roach every time....

On May 19 2011 03:28 Ruyguy wrote:

this is 2 base roach..

On May 19 2011 03:14 TimeSpiral wrote:
A very prominent player just won a pretty big tournament with Roach/Ling all-in every single game. It was lol-worthy.

On May 19 2011 02:08 tdynasty wrote:
This build can work in Diamond and Masters.

I actually lost 2 games recently to Roach ling all Ins.
One of them was on Shakuras with a Nydus Worm. I killed the worm but 5 roaches came out followed by a second nydus.

The main reason why this works, If me (protoss) Is playing extra greedy and still building infrastructure/upgrades around 50 food.

I had maybe 3 sentries covering my front and 2 stalkers backing them up.

I pulled probes and stalkers to hit the Nydus. But failed miserably.


The second map this build works on I think is Scrap station.
Where the protoss can often early expand.


The part where this build becomes good. Is you will scout initially, and see a zerg expansion with lings going. So you say, standard zerg macro.

WIth that being said the all in is now no longer detectable. Because on the Roach warren is out, the zerg starts massing units while you are probe building and laying down buildings.

I think this is a very strong build against protoss who go for anything under a 30 food nexus.
Otherwise it can be countered by good FFs and good reinforcements.

In ZvZ. Whatever I can't comment!

However this specific build order could use tweaking versus protoss. I don't see why get a 36 Queen... I just like the Concept of massing units early off 2 hatches for ling/roach Hatch tech pressure.

On May 19 2011 04:27 Gescom wrote:

Who?

+ Show Spoiler +

On May 18 2011 15:13 PR4Y wrote:



Nothing you just said makes any sense, whatsoever... Of course you can troll unintentionally.


Example: George Bush saying "Thanks to OB/GYN for spreading... their love, for women..." was an unintentional troll. He didn't realize he was doing it, but after it happened it became apparent that what he had just said might have been the stupidest thing to ever leave a United States President's mouth. Unintentional trolls happen all the time, in many shapes and sizes... you may just be too blind to see them going on around you, but that does not mean they don't happen.


Also, when a progamer says that this is garbage and troll-worthy, listen to those words. Destiny teaching one of his students that X build is "unbeatable, gamebreaking, and unstoppable", is just hype. That's all this build is... Hype. Like I stated to begin with, Destiny does a GREAT job of hyping himself and the product he sells (coaching lessons), and he does it in a unique manor. He has had great success with his stream, but that by no means makes him any less human then you or I... He might not of known he was trolling, but because of his loyal followers that take everything he says as fact, situations like this thread occur.


This build just doesn't hold water. It might be a fun build to try against some lowbies, but it just wont work in higher leagues. That is why it is a troll. Destiny said it was game-breaking to his student to hype his product, and as a result, one of his followers took that statement seriously and made this thread THUS CREATING AN UNINTENTIONAL TROLL.



Thanks

On May 18 2011 15:02 MrBitter wrote:
He's doing it with good intentions...

He's taking low level players and showing them a solid 1 base build that doesn't revolve around solid mechanics or good micro...

Its a free pass from bronze to gold, and by saying "zomg its unbeatable", he's selling it very well......

So saying he's trolling might be an oversimplifcation...

But Destiny does not think its an unstoppable build. He's very aware of the build's shortcomings, and of the fact that those shortcomings are irrelevant in the lower leagues.

edit: To be clear, I'm not trying to dump on Destiny. He's a far better player than me, but this build isn't anything like some bandwagoners are trying to believe...

On May 19 2011 11:54 McBrungus wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, this build is simply a strong timing, kind of like the ones Machine showcased early on in Mr. Bitter's "12 Weeks" series that can certainly work at lower levels or against opponents who don't expect it. That said, whenever I see my opponents in a ZvZ going one base roach I start licking my chops and trying to figure out how many points I'm going to get from beating him.

On May 19 2011 12:02 Lightningbullet wrote:
I think an early zealot scout(s) will annoy some drones and disrupt your play for a while. Or you can just go 2 base and burrow BANELINGS!!! :D

On May 18 2011 13:06 Stam wrote:
In a recent video [below], Destiny outlined a ZvZ build he called "unstoppable" and "wins every single ZvZ up to grandmasters". The build seems to be as follows (thanks to ItsBricksOutHere):

On May 18 2011 13:40 Shahrazad wrote:
I don't see how this is going to hold any speedling all-in, especially with the "no scout" advice. If you watch the video, he has nothing at 5:00 but a spine and a queen.

On May 19 2011 12:36 michaelhasanalias wrote:


I've done speedling openers as default in zvz for months, and that spine plus queen, and the roach timing will hold against whatever you can do at any time.

I don't like destiny at all, but this is a very strong build (which I guess is fine since it's not his build or idea).

I don't see any point in the game where any speedling all-in could beat that opener if the defender has some competent level of drone/queen micro.

On May 18 2011 14:02 PR4Y wrote:



I haven't watched the video, but I remember seeing him teaching this live, and at one point he had his student doing it against EASY AI opponents and volunteer silver/gold players... The point of the strategy forum is to discuss strategies that are viable at ALL LEVELS OF PLAY.... This strategy is simply NOT VIABLE at anything above silver/gold league, making the thread worthless and counter-intuitive.

On May 19 2011 21:45 Tropical Bob wrote:

If you've got him restricted to having Queens and Drones huddled around the Spine in the mineral line, that means you have "control" of his base. His first 6 Roaches may not be able to wall off (Depending on whether you have enough Speedlings to threaten them) and stop the Lings from massing in. Also, if those Roaches move off the ramp to defend the natural Hatch, Speedling Surround, Inc.; if they stay on the ramp, that's quite a heavy denial of Larvae if the Hatch is lost.

So that means there should be a timing to contain him entirely to his mineral line before/when the first 6 Roaches pop, and possibly another timing when he tries to expand if you miss the first one.

Personally, any time I see a Roach wall, I immediately go into mass Ling contain mode and work towards +1 Carapace -> +1 Melee, or even straight +1 Melee if I didn't spot an Evolution Chamber. Both will most likely not finish fast enough from the first scout to the push, but if you can even slow down the push at the beginning, it's going to lose a lot of steam methinks.

On May 18 2011 13:41 PR4Y wrote:


Artosis was commenting on how powerful it can be in certain situations in ZvP... That situation being, toss going 3gate sentry expo. The roaches are meat shields and sentry snipers, while the lings get up close and personal and prevent the protoss from being comfy for too long and allowing them to amass a deathball.

So to answer your question, yes, it CAN work in ZvP... but I wouldn't advise this, as its so easy to scout and the expo is SO late that any Protoss with half a brain would know to stay 1base as the zerg is obviously going to be putting on some serious pressure... (1base zerg past 21 supply in ZvP = semi-allin)

On May 20 2011 12:13 michaelhasanalias wrote:
spoiler from NASL:

+ Show Spoiler +

On May 18 2011 13:33 mrfatbush wrote:
Definitely will try this in zvz.

Question though, does this strategy work against protoss? I heard artosis saying during gsl that a roach ling all in against a protoss can be very powerful, especially if the protoss is greedy in expanding and assumes the zerg is powering drones.

On May 18 2011 13:06 Stam wrote:
In a recent video [below], Destiny outlined a ZvZ build he called "unstoppable" and "wins every single ZvZ up to grandmasters". The build seems to be as follows (thanks to ItsBricksOutHere):

* 13 pool
* 15.5 (drone building) gas
* 16 Overlord
* Pool 100% - 1 spine + Queen
* Queen 3/4% Roach Warren
* 20 Overlord
* Roach Warren 100% Roaches with all larvae (~6)
* ~32 Overlord
* ~34 Expand
* 36 Metabolic Boost (Remove Drones from gas at this point)
* 36 Roaches (~7)
* 44 Overlord (or 2)
* 46 Queen (or sooner if able)
* ~50 Mass Lings behind Roaches
* At this point there should be about 13 Roaches and several lings. 'A move' all units to enemy base, keeping the lings behind the roaches in case of banelings. Throughout the engagement, continue to produce lings and rally them to the opponents base.

Destiny seems to think the only way to survive against this build is to do the same build. I haven't actually seen this build on ladder too much but it seems quite strong the few times I've executed it. Is this a common build in the higher leagues and what do people do when they suspect someone is doing this build?

VOD of lesson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjO7gPmUqlo

On May 20 2011 14:59 MrBitter wrote:
I really want to reiterate just how annoying and absolutely incorrect some of the statements being made in this thread are.

"PLAYER X" DOES A ROACH/SPEEDLING ATTACK DOES NOT = "PLAYER X IS DOING THIS BUILD"

Let's make a comparison to PvZ really quickly.

Protoss A goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, cancels his Nexus and attacks.

Protoss B goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, DOES NOT CANCEL, and still attacks.

Are both players doing the same build?

Absolutely and unequivocally not.

Obviously the builds are different. One player expanded, and the other player did not.

IF THE NEXUS CANCELLING PLAYER EXPANDS LATER, IS HE NOW DOING THE SAME THING!?

The answer is still no. They are very different builds, and have MASSIVE economic differences.

In ZvZ, if Player A goes 15 hatch into roach speedling, and Player B goes roach speedling after expanding around 30 supply, the economies of the two players will be massively different.

For the love of all that is good in this world, please stop fucking saying that "JULY DID THIS SAME BUILD BUT HE WENT HATCH FIRST!!!!"

If July went hatch first, his build shares ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with this one.

And for what it's worth, the entire reason that July went hatch first is because its about 50,000x stronger to go roaches off of 2 bases than it is off of one.

>.<

On May 20 2011 22:06 michaelhasanalias wrote:


Your vids are really good, but this is totally uncalled for and is just a bunch of whining.

You have to be referring to my post, since there are only two posts in this entire thread talking about that game, one of them being mine.

I was making some toast during the opening moments of the game and must have missed the hatch first, but both the attack, roach/drone/ling count and timing looked very similar.

They are different means to get there, but it's not a far stretch to say that they are the same builds.

Get off your high horse and go watch the game.

Their economies are likely to be different but aren't necessarily going to be different. It depends when and where you cut, and his build hit with the pretty much the same force at the same time as the one described in the OP.

It's great that 15hatch opening is not the same as a 13 pool. Thanks for that high level commentary. The map he did that on is large enough to allow for a safe 15hatch, and so he took some creative license with the general theme of the build.



Also your analogy is absolutely wrong and off-base, as your protoss analog changes the outcome, whereas July simply changed the means to get there.



edit: If you have something more constructive to add beyond "guys, 15 hatch is different from 13 pool", I'd be glad to hear it though. All the lessons you buy from those high level players must give you some better perspective on a strategy that seems to be dominating zvz lately.

On May 20 2011 23:20 MrBitter wrote:


I'm not on a high horse. Its not dominating ZvZ. I'm trying to give constructive advice, but nobody wants to listen..........

Strategy forum these days is so /facepalm.

And its an incredibly far stretch to say the builds are anything close to being the same.

Terran FE into 4 rax is not the same as Terran 4 rax all-in.

On May 21 2011 01:32 michaelhasanalias wrote:


It must be hard to quote my response and then commit the same logical fallacies again.

Your post once again has absolutely nothing to do with this thread and you sound like an elitist jackass.

And yet again you draw an analogy of the 13pool vs 15h opener in this build to a 2-base vs 1-base build for another race.

I'm not trying to pick on you, but I mean... why post in a thread claiming to be a voice of reason only to provide off-topic commentary and then have the audacity to complain about the state of the strategy forum?

On May 21 2011 16:54 Saracen wrote:

You really need to get off your high horse dude. How is your argument any better than his if you can't quantify what you say? "Their economies are likely to be different but aren't necessarily going to be different?" "I was making some toast during the opening moments of the game and must have missed the hatch first, but both the attack, roach/drone/ling count and timing looked very similar?" "his build hit with the pretty much the same force at the same time as the one described in the OP?" Here, let me translate what you said so you can see what you're sounding like to everyone else: "I sort of watched both of the games, though missing some crucial factors, which has led me to the conclusion that both openings lead to approximately the same amount of stuff at approximately the same timing."
Here are some numbers for you:
In the VOD, Destiny's student moves out at 9:00 with 13 roaches and ~12 lings. With a hatch first build, you can have that many units a full minute earlier, with ~20 more lings about to hatch. Speedling expand delays the timing by like 15 seconds, depending on how you drone. Now you tell me whether a minute faster attack timing is good or not. Or, to put it into perspective, at 9 minutes, you have 13 roaches and ~60 lings.
Also, you're treading really thin waters with your attitude.

On May 22 2011 00:42 ducis wrote:
I'm just theory crafting at this point because I haven't gotten a chance to try this out against any of my zerg practice partners but....

wouldn't a hatch first ret-style of ZvZ (hatch first, zergling scouting, gaining a slight drone lead over time, getting a roach warren late or when banes show up) just destroy this?

edit: Thank you Mr. Bitter for making the effort to post in the strategy section, but I completely understand if you never want to post here again.

On May 22 2011 07:03 Belial88 wrote:
You know your set so far back economically with this, I've found on certain maps with narrow chokes to natural like Shakuras can beat this with hatch first and mass spines. Maybe I should've pushed 100% but here's a replay of me doing the build and losing to someone who went hatch first and mass spine.

I mean here's the replay you guys can judge for yourself, I do a good job of staying in the game but I'm clearly just a step behind economically the whole time. I would've lost much earlier in the game if I hadn't played perfectly against everything this guy does. I saw the mass spine and decided to back off, but maybe I should've just threw everything at him anyways. It's possible I could've broke him.

He also went hatch first, I feel maybe I should've just went normal speedling expand against him but with 13 pool first, I felt like the speedlings would've been too late.

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=210255

On May 23 2011 16:46 Belial88 wrote:
1. Why not do this build with in-base hatch? It seems to me that while 2 bases with 20 drones is better than 1 base with 20 drones, in either case you will have more than enough money to support 2 hatches with 2 queens.

On May 18 2011 14:16 MrBitter wrote:
Destiny's trolling you guys.

1 base roach will lose to 2 base roach every time....

On May 22 2011 07:03 Belial88 wrote:
You know your set so far back economically with this, I've found on certain maps with narrow chokes to natural like Shakuras can beat this with hatch first and mass spines. Maybe I should've pushed 100% but here's a replay of me doing the build and losing to someone who went hatch first and mass spine.

On May 20 2011 05:50 Torte de Lini wrote:
This is a terrible build and instantly recognized.

The biggest problem with this build are two things: 1. It's detectable and 2. Any opponent who expos faster than you and sees you coming (big grace to the overlords) will just start massing roaches. True, this might work on close-ground positions, but cross-map or cross-air just nullifies this attack.

An 8 pool stops this because the spine crawlers is only 65% up and your queen is almost popping by the time the lings have already taking out two to three drones.

Additionally, when you try to expo, mass lings pretty much destroy your roaches and denies your expo, preventing you from actually following up into your masterful push.

I've tried it 8 times and even when done perfectly or with slight alterations, two things occur: 1. the opponent simply gets a slightly better economy than you or 2. he simply out numbers your lings and roaches by a severe amount. The video is terrible because the guy engaged his roaches into destiny's built-army letting the lings get a surround.

Back yourself up to a wall, funnel the lings and you pretty much destroyed half his army. Additional lings are coming in for support, but at the same time your roach reinforcements are already incoming.

How this could work beyond Diamond is beyond my understanding. This isn't the 4-gate because it leaves too much time for your opponent to see you only producing units and respond accurately (in most cases, a lot of roaches with soon +1 attack).

Additionally, getting ling and banelings + 1 is nothing unusual to break a wall of what, 6 roaches (by the time it is done)

On May 18 2011 13:12 TheLOLas wrote:
This looks very strong. Extremely actually. I've heard doatrap and tastosis talk about a roach ling all in recently. Maybe this was it. Can't wait to try this out.

EDIT- Just tried it and it has one major flaw. They can baneling bust the roaches that serve as a wall. I did eventually win however because i massed about 24 roaches and took out his base. Just thought i would let you know.

On May 23 2011 17:40 Belial88 wrote:
It can sustain almost full ling production, if not full, on 20 drones 2 queen 2 hatch

On May 25 2011 04:57 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Its funny how come there are 10 pages any hardly any replays -.-

I watched this game, and I honestly believe you could have either won, or dealt significant damage, if you would have pushed the second your roaches got to his base. Since your attack is hinging on 10 roaches, reinforced with tons of lings, with a very low drone count (compared to your enemy), this attack is the strongest at the moment your roaches reach your opponent's base. Afterwards, it can only grow weaker.

Also, a note about your play - this build should be fairly hard to scout - just keep 4-5 roaches at the entrance of your base, then hide the rest of your army behind your ramp or natural or something. You were massing up units the entire time, however, right underneath his overlord. If someone is going to beat this build, that'd be one way to let them do it.

"terrible build and instantly recognized" wat? Are you massing units underneath an overlord?

Sorry, in what ZvZ world do you scout your opponent opening roaches, and then decide to mass ling to counter?

Is it just me or could you add on an evo chamber instead of the crawler (in case you scout no early thread like an very early pool) cut 2 roaches and mine a little more gas after metabolic to get +1 melee attack, so it should be available for at least the 2nd wave of lings

Perhaps, but you don't address his second point.

1 base = all-in.

If he has a second base and close to equal drone count, he knows he's ahead and he KNOWS you're doing an all-in thats not mutalisk since you did a second hatch that is easily scoutable. Also, this makes it even more all-in since even by doing a shitload of damage like killing the expo, you still only have 20 drones and no expansion.

On May 18 2011 13:12 TheLOLas wrote:
This looks very strong. Extremely actually. I've heard doatrap and tastosis talk about a roach ling all in recently. Maybe this was it. Can't wait to try this out.

EDIT- Just tried it and it has one major flaw. They can baneling bust the roaches that serve as a wall. I did eventually win however because i massed about 24 roaches and took out his base. Just thought i would let you know.