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I win pretty much 100% of the time against this. This is what I've figured out:
1. If you scout an early spine, or pool/gas opening, then it's obvious he's doing a roach build. Drone up, and take a fast expansion (but not so fast that he could simply send lings or his first roaches and kill you). Drone up to bout 30-40 drones, pure droning, and constantly scout him to make sure he's going roaches into expand.
2. From there just a few spines and making roaches, and you win. This build is hard countered by hatch first builds, and just seeing a roach expand means you should expand against it.
3. You can also opt to make lings instead of expand, which is not only safer, but you can deny their expo as well. On some maps, like Shakuras, this is a bit harder to do, but most maps, like XNC, the natural is fairly hard to defend against speedlings. With micro you can make sure you don't lose a single ling to roaches while you FF a hatch down. This really screws over anyone doing this. Maps like TalDarim, roaches have an extremely difficult time bouncing back and forth from natural to main against early speedling pressure.
This build is not really good at all above Diamond, but most players don't have a great understanding of how ZvZ works in Diamond anyways. Roach expand loses to speedlings, or FE builds.
TLDR: If you see someone put a spine in their base blindly, go pool/gas, or fast roach warren, expand ASAP. If you think he's doing a roach expand but not sure, make speedlings to deny their expo, and counterattack. Remember, mass lings will win a base trade scenario, always, against roaches. In early game in small numbers, lings > roaches.
From there the build just takes advantage of lair timings. Basically going lair or not will kill you in ZvZ - if you don't make lair, fast mutas/tech can kill you, if you do make fast lair, you can be overrun by mass roach (and mass roach almost always beats a fast lair). If you see someone making early game roaches, that means they're lair will be extremely late. You can't really afford lair tech until 2 base saturated anyways, so at worst, 5 mutas hit your base and you already have evo chamber.
Just need to send a single ling, check a single mineral line, or see main if lair morphing, to know if they are going to go hatch tech all-in roach/ling bust, or if it's gonna be an econ game. If someone is doing this and you go lair before 70ish supply, you will die.
I've completely stopped doing this build personally. If someone FE you autolose, and that's not even a hatch first, even a common speedling expand beats this if the player knows what they are doing. Also, with 14/14 you can go 1 base baneling and autowin against fast hatch, and with speedlings you can deny expos. Even regular speedling expands will beat this build, all the opponent has to do is pressure and deny your natural for a little while, get a small econ advantage, and win with defenders advantage with roaches.
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i've tried this multiple times and it never worked once. my timings are 100% spot on.. bad build.
Back to 15 hatch or defensive baneling expo..
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Destiny's trolling you guys.
1 base roach will lose to 2 base roach every time....
Lol. And what about the 24 speedling rush that hits at exactly 4:20? I feel like if you harassed early with that build you could delay this build massively.
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i've tried this multiple times and it never worked once. my timings are 100% spot on.. bad build.
Back to 15 hatch or defensive baneling expo..
Actually I would say it's an extremely good build, and teaches you quite a lot about the match-up, as opposed to other types of cheese. You learn very clearly what it's autowin against, what it's okay against, and what it loses to. It's also never really an auto-lose, yes against a FE build or even speedling expand you will lose to a competent Zerg who simply sees you aren't droning/making lots of roaches, but it's nothing that can't be overcome in Diamond league and lower.
It wins against 1 base baneling
It wins against anyone who makes a lair before 70 supply
It loses to aggressive speedling expands on maps with open naturals with opponents who have the confidence to know to pump lings that they know you can't possibly hold against on large maps or maps like Taldarim where they can bounce from nat to main against slow roaches
It loses to FE builds which are somewhat uncommon, as expanding before 25 supply in ZvZ is basically asking to autolose vs anyone simply throws a baneling nest down.
I learned a lot from this build, and it's not at all a bad build. You autowin against anyone who makes a lair anytime before 70 supply, which is very counterintuitive for a lot of Zergs at the lower levels. Only someone who expands fast and knows if they should drone or not can beat it, which is really the knowledge you need to get to Masters ZvZ-wise, that and knowing how to lair.
Early speedlings beats roaches, roaches beat banelings, banelings beat speedlings and expansions.
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Everyone has watched destiny's video so everyone knows what this build looks like and can counter it.
Maybe if you attack a lot earlier you can catch the guy off guard while he is droning
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I did think it's possible for a 10 pool baneling opening to do some damage but I haven't tried it. I'd love to try it but my practice partner is doubting the validity of this build without even having tried it, know that it's source is a pro-player, or realize it's strengths. I'm assuming a lot of the negative comments are actually quite similar.
On July 29 2011 16:33 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +i've tried this multiple times and it never worked once. my timings are 100% spot on.. bad build.
Back to 15 hatch or defensive baneling expo.. Actually I would say it's an extremely good build, and teaches you quite a lot about the match-up, as opposed to other types of cheese. You learn very clearly what it's autowin against, what it's okay against, and what it loses to. It's also never really an auto-lose, yes against a FE build or even speedling expand you will lose to a competent Zerg who simply sees you aren't droning/making lots of roaches, but it's nothing that can't be overcome in Diamond league and lower. ...................... I learned a lot from this build, and it's not at all a bad build. You autowin against anyone who makes a lair anytime before 70 supply, which is very counterintuitive for a lot of Zergs at the lower levels. Only someone who expands fast and knows if they should drone or not can beat it, which is really the knowledge you need to get to Masters ZvZ-wise, that and knowing how to lair. Early speedlings beats roaches, roaches beat banelings, banelings beat speedlings and expansions.
Actually that's a really good comment. I'm finding this and Desinty's one base roach build are really good benchmarks for learning purposes. Analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of this build and testing it versus other builds has not only made me better with this build, but it's made my understanding of when and how to use the other builds and ultimately it has made my other racial matchups better. It's been a source of a lot of fun for me and I have felt like I've actually improved with every time I run it versus a scenario with my partner.
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Everyone has watched destiny's video so everyone knows what this build looks like and can counter it.
Maybe if you attack a lot earlier you can catch the guy off guard while he is droning
I don't know about that. It's very easy for someone to simply forgo the expansion and simply go 1 base roach. While it's really bad, if you were thinking they were doing the ZvZ '4gate' and were doing the response of mad droning and expanding, they can outright kill you with the first 7 roaches they make. So it's always a good idea to get a roach warren around 28 supply at least, even if you want to mad drone to 'counter' this build, because it gets to a point where roaches simply win everything. Even though mass speedling would beat a 1 base roach push, you may not have the larva stocked up and you may have been making drones those last 2 larva injects, so you may be too screwed to do that. So you have to be aware of that.
Secondly, if you make lair before 70 supply, you pretty much autolose to this unless you expanded very quickly and droned up early, and then got roach warren and knew the opponent was doing the same. Someone could always open like this, scout you and see your making roaches, and they could just drone up themselves.
Attacking earlier or later really isn't an issue though. If you've been making pure roaches since 20 supply, it'll kill someone who makes more than 35 drones really. No amount of spines will really stop it. So it's not that gimmicky of a build. And many, many people I've done this too were overconfident and built 8+ spines, and still got rolled.
Also, forcing that many spines from someone means you can take a super fast third. Just defend with queens and spores for inevitable lair tech from the opponent, and win out economically.
I did think it's possible for a 10 pool baneling opening to do some damage but I haven't tried it. I'd love to try it but my practice partner is doubting the validity of this build without even having tried it, know that it's source is a pro-player, or realize it's strengths. I'm assuming a lot of the negative comments are actually quite similar.
I'm not really sure what you're talking about (maybe referring to another post?). I'm not sure about 10 pool baneling, but the common ZvZ opener is 14/14. It's very easy to simply keep guys on gas until you have another 50 for baneling nest, then remove a drone so it's just 2 on gas, and go ling/bane 1 base against an opponent you see FE.
Personally I think it's a good idea to do something like leave one drone on gas when opening 14/14 if you see the opponent is going 14/14 opening, and then remove it after 50 gas, so you can throw a baneling nest down immediately, as either defensive banes so you can expand first against speedling aggression, or to 1 base bane/ling against someone who speedling expands, and expands around 21. I haven't really worked it out perfectly, there does become a point where you may miss the timing, like if you remove all 3 from gas, and then add it when you see the expo, and you end up really far behind.
But it's pretty much auto-win against anyone who expands before 25 supply. It can have a hard time against early pool expands (like 11p/14g/18h or 10 pool expand).
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I tried this build, but I was wondering what to do if they go fast burrow roaches? You have no detection for that...
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@Xai
Asks yourself this. How long does it take to inject ~5 times on two hatches, build units and traverse the map and then compare it to the time it takes to build a lair and research tunneling claws (burrow is a short upgrade). In addition, all the gas that goes to a lair, and the upgrades takes away from the roach count. That's why people on this thread have said that if you tech you die to this.
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I tried this build, but I was wondering what to do if they go fast burrow roaches? You have no detection for that...
There's actually a replay of destiny doing it against someone going 1 base burrow roach.
It owns it. You have so much stuff. Any fast lair will die to this.
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EDIT: Wow, I only just realized this is an EXTREMELY outdated thread, I apologize for bumping it, I was looking at my previous posts and found one in this thread. Sorry!
I only have a few problems with the build..and it isn't the idea or questioning whether it works, just a few small specific details in the build order:
13 pool
15.5 (drone building) gas
16 Overlord
Pool 100% - 1 spine + Queen
Queen 75% Roach Warren
20 Overlord
Roach Warren 100% Roaches with all larve (~6)
~32 Overlord
~34 Expand
36 Metabolic Boost (Remove Drones from gas at this point)
36 Roaches (~7)
44 Overlord (or 2)
46 Queen (or sooner if able)
~50 Mass Lings behind Roaches
I know some of these answers should be common sense and the build doesn't have to be EXACT but there are some errors in the food count and when to get overlords.
1st Error:
~32 Overlord
~34 Expand
What is using those 2 food from overlord to expand? 2 drones? 1 roach? 2 sets of lings?
Also:
~34 Expand
36 Metabolic Boost
What am I using those 3 supply (taking into account the lost drone used for expansion) for again?
Next:
36 Metabolic Boost (remove drones from gas at this point)
That left me with enough gas for about 8 or 9 TOTAL roaches with the boost (my timings were nearly perfect, i tested vs a very easy computer and in single player so i could pause for perfect execution)
So am I supposed to wait longer before removing drones from gas?
Then:
~36 Roaches (~7)
44 Overlord (or 2):
Well testing the build exactly as written, I became supply blocked at 42/42, so I ended up making the overlords at 42 instead
44 Overlord
46 Queen
Again, what am I using those 2 supply for?
46 Queen
~50 lings
What got me from 48-50?
Sorry for being so picky, I think the build is amazing, I just think it could use some fine tuning. Feedback greatly appreciated!
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Its just a roach/ling all-in. You don't have to do the exact opener destiny did, and id actually go as far to say 1 base roach is the worst opening you could do in zvz (unless like you are dealing with fast 1 base bane).
A really interesting roach/ling I saw recently was idra vs drg cloud kingdom (just search sc2casts). Idra went hatch first, standard gas timing and speed, droned to 28, threw down a roach warren (yes, at 28/28 no overlord yet). Then, he made 4 overlords, didn't make any more drones, and then when warren popped, he made enoug roaches to be at 52/60 and reinforced with lings. It hit hard.
You are basically cutting drones around 20-30, throwing warren, banking money and larva, attack. Its common in zvz no matter what level you are or opener you do or very early game shenanigans.
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On April 27 2012 17:05 Belial88 wrote:
Its just a roach/ling all-in. You don't have to do the exact opener destiny did, and id actually go as far to say 1 base roach is the worst opening you could do in zvz (unless like you are dealing with fast 1 base bane).
A really interesting roach/ling I saw recently was idra vs drg cloud kingdom (just search sc2casts). Idra went hatch first, standard gas timing and speed, droned to 28, threw down a roach warren (yes, at 28/28 no overlord yet). Then, he made 4 overlords, didn't make any more drones, and then when warren popped, he made enoug roaches to be at 52/60 and reinforced with lings. It hit hard.
You are basically cutting drones around 20-30, throwing warren, banking money and larva, attack. Its common in zvz no matter what level you are or opener you do or very early game shenanigans.
I understand the idea of it, how to do it, etc.. I just hate feeling sloppy in my execution because I am trying to perfect an incomplete build order, that is all. Thank you for the feedback!
edit:
I like having a plan to go for every game so I don't have to think, it just becomes memory, that way I can spend all my thought processes on reacting to my opponent  that is why I am so picky.
Re-edit:
Wow, just realized you are the same guy who helped me with my ZvP play with that guide! I am honestly considering abandoning this ZvZ build altogether in hopes of finding a better macro-oriented style...its just discouraging losing so many games in the first 10 minutes and never actually achieving a ZvZ macro game, hence why I resorted to Destiny's build.
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EPT
