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This build puts you at a disadvantage from the start against 14g13p, though, so I don't see why you would ever open with this build. It also seems like it would put you at a severe economic disadvantage against someone who wanted to play a standard macro game, as you're expanding pretty late with this build.
Also, I have a hard time believing this can even stop the aforementioned roach/ling all-in. Would you care to try it against me in a game?
On paper, yes you are correct; However, the 9 pool's strength is highest when the opponent is trying to perform a regular macro build. As long as you are focusing drones down you should do enough damage to come out ahead therefore making your 9 pool pay for itself.
I've had a few games where my opponent continued to try and simply micro his drones around my 6 lings to buy time for the queen while continuing to drone up and after losing too many drones simply just left the game and quit altogether thereby winning me the game in under 5minutes.
The whole point of the 9 pool and 6 early zerglings is that you are simply trying to kill a few drones to make your going 9 pool worth it; Otherwise yes, you are correct, it's a disadvantage if those lings do no damage then you are considerably behind.
I'd love to do a 1v1 and I'd give it a shot; However, keep in mind that you are a much higher skilled player than I in terms of mechanics so even if I am executing said build to the best of my ability you may beat me anyway. What's more important I think, is that you give my build a shot against someone performing your 4gateZerg build so that you can get an idea of it's strengths and see how far you actually come out ahead because I think you will be surprised.
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On May 18 2011 13:36 PR4Y wrote:
Good control with b/ling can shut this down... lings actually do very well against roaches, and if your blings connect with the lings, it's GG.
The problem with this build, is it's a ZvZ build... The timing for this is so easily scoutable (ovvy scout) that you just throw up a b.nest and your fine.
Destiny was using this to teach one of his STUDENTS how to execute a strong strategy. Keep in mind his student was pretty terrible, and just needed help with a good strategy for ZvZ... You have to realize that Destiny is also selling his own product, so obviously he is going to hype this build for his student, to build confidence.
unless u have nestea ZvZ micro this is unstopable unless u make atleqst 3 spines and even then zerglings can run you over
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On May 26 2011 07:44 guitarizt wrote:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/72088/allinvshatchfirst.SC2ReplayHere's me failing against a guy on ladder with the roach ling allin. I could probably shave half a minute off my time when I attack but still I don't think I have a chance to win. My best chance to win is attack with my initial roaches but he'd still be able to hold imo and have the ability to pump more units and still have an expo. Plus it strays from the build that's supposed to beat everything unless he does the same build. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/72088/roachlingvs9pool.SC2ReplayHere's me doing a 9 pool against a guy doing the roach ling allin. Again, he could probably shave some seconds off his build but I could have done a better job as well. Since the build is supposed to crush everything I think it shows that's it's not so awesome if I can hold it while not playing optimally. He was probably better off doing a ling run by but I should have had my roaches closer to my ramp or have it blocked off so I think that evens out. For some reason in game it didn't register in my head that he was even doing the roach ling allin at the time until it happened. All the people on ladder were diamond and I think it should be good enough to get the general idea. The roach ling thing is held off by so many builds, and it gets raped by so many other cheeses.
1) on the 2nd replay your 9 pool fails hard, and then you still out macro your opponent to have more roaches than he has, and he also has a really bad engagment. All things being equal there is no way you should have more stuff than him if you 9 pool and he puts his down on 13. Do you really think this replay proves anything?
2) Destiny answered the question about going hatch first in ZvZ. Yes you'll win some games, as you will 6 pooling, but it's rolling the dice for him. This build was made as a solid opening against all other builds. I question whether it's not better to drone scout since you could possibly punish the hatch first, but really this is a small thing.
"Se many builds. so many cheeses" - exactly how many viable ZvZ builds are there? I'm a nubcake, but I think you can count them all on one hand. no?
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On May 27 2011 01:52 Tvk wrote:
This build is very weak and silly.
Dunno in what league need to play to call it "unstoppable" this build loose 24/7 to 15hut + mass roach. This build gets pwned by 2base speedlings.
Such lulz.
What happend to the "the strategy forum will have rules again" thing? I thought the mods wanted to actually enforce it..
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On May 27 2011 02:25 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 07:44 guitarizt wrote:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/72088/allinvshatchfirst.SC2ReplayHere's me failing against a guy on ladder with the roach ling allin. I could probably shave half a minute off my time when I attack but still I don't think I have a chance to win. My best chance to win is attack with my initial roaches but he'd still be able to hold imo and have the ability to pump more units and still have an expo. Plus it strays from the build that's supposed to beat everything unless he does the same build. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/72088/roachlingvs9pool.SC2ReplayHere's me doing a 9 pool against a guy doing the roach ling allin. Again, he could probably shave some seconds off his build but I could have done a better job as well. Since the build is supposed to crush everything I think it shows that's it's not so awesome if I can hold it while not playing optimally. He was probably better off doing a ling run by but I should have had my roaches closer to my ramp or have it blocked off so I think that evens out. For some reason in game it didn't register in my head that he was even doing the roach ling allin at the time until it happened.
You said it yourself. The 9 pool kills nothing because I was indecisive about killing the queen or drones and just wasn't playing well that game in general. I still end up holding off the roach ling allin and it didn't click in my head that's what he was doing even though I saw the spine crawler and roaches.
I don't think the 9 pool build is that good of a build but people don't know how to respond to it and they have to be paranoid about a ling allin, roach allin, ling bane, or fast mutas. A lot of the time they start pulling ahead in econ from me but then the roach attack comes and they die.
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I would put my own standard zvz buil against that at any time. I might loose against Destiny but I believe that would be because of micro not the strategy. But I would try it (sc2 addy on eu is criz 202). Btw fast hatch is bad in zvz believe it^^
And if anyone wonders... no I won't tell me opening which helps me get a over 90% win rate against Zerg even against low level master (haven't gotten farther yet, sadly T.T).
I am just saying the buil got holes... huge holes^^.
criz out
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On May 27 2011 09:43 criz202 wrote:
I would put my own standard zvz buil against that at any time. I might loose against Destiny but I believe that would be because of micro not the strategy. But I would try it (sc2 addy on eu is criz 202). Btw fast hatch is bad in zvz believe it^^
And if anyone wonders... no I won't tell me opening which helps me get a over 90% win rate against Zerg even against low level master (haven't gotten farther yet, sadly T.T).
I am just saying the buil got holes... huge holes^^.
criz out
low masters is nothing to brag about. and no one asked about your build order.
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What's really amusing is I got hit by a guy doing exactly this build a few days ago and I hadn't heard of it, only I had decided to go fast mutas (yea yea I know, it was late, I was tired) and I remember thinking "wow, he has a lot of stuff, it's a good thing my mutas can clean up his queen and then his army..." It was a complete dice roll win, but having seen this post I can now say with absolute certainty:
If he's going roach ling all in and I scout it but he doesn't scout me, I just go fast muta.
I think that this all in attack comes in at about 9 minutes? I've played with it vs the AI and I don't think I can get it much faster. On the other hand fast muta can have 6 up at a bit before 8 minutes, so you really shouldn't have anything to worry about. Even if he spots it, he can't move out because you'll kill his army. Throw down some spines for extra protection and you are fiiiiiiiine.
So yea, I guess the moral is scout your opponent, and if he's going cheese, cheese him better and harder :D
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-211106.jpg)
I'm a diamond player, I think my opponent was platinum. The rest of the game we both play quite awfully, I eventually win, but I think the point is that with the spines and mutas I really didn't have to worry about the all in.
That said I'm sure the muta strategy puts me behind in other ways, but honestly I'm too tired right now to think of that 
Hope it's interesting all the same
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this is not unbeatable. i am doing it the way it is laid out. i lose each time
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On May 27 2011 12:57 DeLoReAn wrote:
this is not unbeatable. i am doing it the way it is laid out. i lose each time While I haven't copied this build exactly, I am having great success against 1000+ masters players on EU by going 4 lings instead of the spine off of a 12pool13gas and transitioning into this if I don't see anything that I need to deal with(fast pool being the obvious one). A fast 8-10 roach push following up with gasless ~20ish drone off of 2 base mass ling is really really powerful so far. Only been able to play like 3-4 games so far however so I can come back with more information later if people are interested.
To sum up this thread I am of the firm belief that a push such as this is incredibly powerful because the only way to have a superior army composition is by blindly going roach/bling/sling or something else similarly defensive(such as mass spines) something which isn't very effective against most other builds(hard to get both tech structures up without falling behind/dying). Given that a blind counter is extremely unlikely, all you really have to do is hide it well.
I'm thinking that the best way to go about a roach push like this(basically, 10 roaches and pulling gas while massing speedlings) is to just make your build look like something completely standard. Given this denying scouting of the roach warren is crucial(you probably want your build to look like a speedling expo).
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you forgot destiny is bad.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Here are the issues I see with the build:
-Baneling busts
-No initial zerglings built, so little scouting information and even worse, the other zerg will see no zerglings built, making your expansion even more susceptible
-8 pool
-Straight roaches can easily lose to mass speedling, even walled
-you can get out mutalisks/infestors (if rushed) before this push would occur, and there is no initial pressure possibilities to punish it.
... and thats all i can really think of for now, but those would have to be the major flaws behind the strategy, and of course no strategy is perfect, but thats a list of extremely easy counters.
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[QUOTE]On May 18 2011 13:12 TheLOLas wrote:
This looks very strong. Extremely actually. I've heard doatrap and tastosis talk about a roach ling all in recently. [.quote]
No it's not it. They're talking about a ZvP build.
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On May 27 2011 18:35 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 13:12 TheLOLas wrote:
This looks very strong. Extremely actually. I've heard doatrap and tastosis talk about a roach ling all in recently. No it's not it. They're talking about a ZvP build.
lolol. Shows the power of ignorance + star power doesn't it.
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On May 27 2011 10:57 zasta wrote:What's really amusing is I got hit by a guy doing exactly this build a few days ago and I hadn't heard of it, only I had decided to go fast mutas (yea yea I know, it was late, I was tired) and I remember thinking "wow, he has a lot of stuff, it's a good thing my mutas can clean up his queen and then his army..." It was a complete dice roll win, but having seen this post I can now say with absolute certainty: If he's going roach ling all in and I scout it but he doesn't scout me, I just go fast muta. I think that this all in attack comes in at about 9 minutes? I've played with it vs the AI and I don't think I can get it much faster. On the other hand fast muta can have 6 up at a bit before 8 minutes, so you really shouldn't have anything to worry about. Even if he spots it, he can't move out because you'll kill his army. Throw down some spines for extra protection and you are fiiiiiiiine. So yea, I guess the moral is scout your opponent, and if he's going cheese, cheese him better and harder :D I'm a diamond player, I think my opponent was platinum. The rest of the game we both play quite awfully, I eventually win, but I think the point is that with the spines and mutas I really didn't have to worry about the all in. That said I'm sure the muta strategy puts me behind in other ways, but honestly I'm too tired right now to think of that Hope it's interesting all the same
Is the stream of replays of people failing this build badly never going to end? What does this prove? I know replays are a good thing for discussions of this type, but when they don't show what somebody says they show then what is the point?
Did he have 2 bases worth of lings, and then have fast reinforcements? No.
Your answer is....Muta rush. I'm certain that this Roach/Ling all-in (althought it's not all-in) would win vs your handful of Mutas 90% of the time.
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I just won 4 games in a row with this build (high plat), thanks for sharing - ZvZ used to be my weakest match up. The games I played weren't even close.
One question: After a short time, my minerals start to bank up - getting to about 600 after a couple of injects. What should I do with this moneys? Should I put some back on gas, just in case of the rare event of it being held? Or get a 3rd hatch/some queens?
Here's an example: http://replayfu.com/r/FQqZqm - you can see I'm floating a fair few minerals. I got supply blocked at 18/18 (forgetting 16 ovy...lol), and forgot to transfer drones - but that should leave me with LESS money, yet I'm still floating...
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 27 2011 19:18 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 10:57 zasta wrote:What's really amusing is I got hit by a guy doing exactly this build a few days ago and I hadn't heard of it, only I had decided to go fast mutas (yea yea I know, it was late, I was tired) and I remember thinking "wow, he has a lot of stuff, it's a good thing my mutas can clean up his queen and then his army..." It was a complete dice roll win, but having seen this post I can now say with absolute certainty: If he's going roach ling all in and I scout it but he doesn't scout me, I just go fast muta. I think that this all in attack comes in at about 9 minutes? I've played with it vs the AI and I don't think I can get it much faster. On the other hand fast muta can have 6 up at a bit before 8 minutes, so you really shouldn't have anything to worry about. Even if he spots it, he can't move out because you'll kill his army. Throw down some spines for extra protection and you are fiiiiiiiine. So yea, I guess the moral is scout your opponent, and if he's going cheese, cheese him better and harder :D I'm a diamond player, I think my opponent was platinum. The rest of the game we both play quite awfully, I eventually win, but I think the point is that with the spines and mutas I really didn't have to worry about the all in. That said I'm sure the muta strategy puts me behind in other ways, but honestly I'm too tired right now to think of that Hope it's interesting all the same Is the stream of replays of people failing this build badly never going to end? What does this prove? I know replays are a good thing for discussions of this type, but when they don't show what somebody says they show then what is the point? Did he have 2 bases worth of lings, and then have fast reinforcements? No. Your answer is....Muta rush. I'm certain that this Roach/Ling all-in (althought it's not all-in) would win vs your handful of Mutas 90% of the time.
The point was that he couldn't have 2 base worth of lings because I picked off a queen... honestly I don't think there's much that he could have done about that. I haven't yet analysed it in depth, but spending half an hour with the AI, I don't see how you could do the rush much faster than 9 mins, and you can easily have 6 mutas up before that. So the idea is, identify the build and then hard counter.
But like I said, it's just for interest. This was the first time I've come up against it. If you'd like to practise and try it out, be my guest and add me (zasta, 174, eu server). Have a nice day.
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lol ive lost 6 zvz's on ladder doing this build =p
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I wish this build was out when I played Zerg.
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Let's see how well it goes for me.
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EPT
