EPThilarious.
This build seems quite strong, even when SoldierCross was being taught right then and there. If he were to do it exactly or close to flawless, it probably can crush many other players.
[D] Zerg equivalent to a 4-Gate - Page 10
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EVILISLEMONS
Canada5 Posts
hilarious. This build seems quite strong, even when SoldierCross was being taught right then and there. If he were to do it exactly or close to flawless, it probably can crush many other players. | ||
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starojda
Czech Republic246 Posts
 i have tried it for the second time (first was quite succesful  ) and had really hard time to win the game!map was scrap station, oponent went for +1 roach push. his roaches got to my base in the time when i stopped producing roaches (got around 12) a massing lings. My army died but reinforcing lings managed (with queen support) to hold his push and he finally retreated. I start to drone, made my +1 range and pushed back. He went for mutas, which i ignored and rampaged his expansion and several buildings in main. Then he got around 8 mutas and i had to fortify my base - i had around 6 queens and spores everywhere to secure my lead . He tried to harrass, but i hold and with lings completed the destruction in his base.So beware +1 roaches | ||
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HaifischSC
United States7 Posts
This build seems to have the most difficulty against hatch-first 2-base roach play. Anything else has been rolled over effortlessly, but it seems that a competent player can match your roach count with a hatch-first, potentially adding in some defensive crawlers as well. I've found that this has a really easy solution: don't use your lings to engage his army. Instead, divert a substantial portion of your initial lings and reinforcements into his main mineral line. I've found this super effective because 2-base roach play usually goes very, very light on lings. And while it feels like a coin-toss if your roach+ling army can beat their roach+crawler defense, they have no response to a ling drive-by on their economy. They have to pull roaches to save their drones, at which point you can use your own roaches to overrun the static defenses and clear their natural. At that point, I simply do as much economy damage as possible until their roaches return to deal with my roaches -- then I run my roaches back to my base while reinforcing. This almost always provokes an all-in, as they'll be at a tremendous economic deficit. It's an easy all-in to hold, however. This strategy doesn't work quite so well on maps where the run-by is difficult (e.g. Shakuras), but at the low Master level where I'm playing few players can defend accurately even then. | ||
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colloidoscope
United States15 Posts
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vrok
Sweden2541 Posts
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vahgar.r24
India465 Posts
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
On May 23 2011 17:40 Belial88 wrote: It can sustain almost full ling production, if not full, on 20 drones 2 queen 2 hatch Perhaps, but you don't address his second point. 1 base = all-in. If he has a second base and close to equal drone count, he knows he's ahead and he KNOWS you're doing an all-in thats not mutalisk since you did a second hatch that is easily scoutable. Also, this makes it even more all-in since even by doing a shitload of damage like killing the expo, you still only have 20 drones and no expansion. | ||
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Destiny
United States280 Posts
On May 25 2011 04:57 vahgar.r24 wrote: Its funny how come there are 10 pages any hardly any replays -.- http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/24-05-11/45593-ROOTslush-VS-ROOTDestiny.html http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/24-05-11/45594-ROOTDestiny-VS-ROOTslush.html http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/24-05-11/45595-ROOTDestiny-VS-Inepril.html EDIT: This replay is from a student I was teaching who uses the build against a guy who even knew the build was coming. http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/22-05-11/45597-SgtSater-VS-rna.html | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On May 25 2011 07:18 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote: http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/24-05-11/45593-ROOTslush-VS-ROOTDestiny.html http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/24-05-11/45594-ROOTDestiny-VS-ROOTslush.html http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/24-05-11/45595-ROOTDestiny-VS-Inepril.html EDIT: This replay is from a student I was teaching who uses the build against a guy who even knew the build was coming. http://www.sc-replay.com/replay/22-05-11/45597-SgtSater-VS-rna.html Thanks for bringing some sanity into this thread. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I watched this game, and I honestly believe you could have either won, or dealt significant damage, if you would have pushed the second your roaches got to his base. Since your attack is hinging on 10 roaches, reinforced with tons of lings, with a very low drone count (compared to your enemy), this attack is the strongest at the moment your roaches reach your opponent's base. Afterwards, it can only grow weaker. Also, a note about your play - this build should be fairly hard to scout - just keep 4-5 roaches at the entrance of your base, then hide the rest of your army behind your ramp or natural or something. You were massing up units the entire time, however, right underneath his overlord. If someone is going to beat this build, that'd be one way to let them do it. Wow Destiny watching me play, I'm woozy! Fair enough, I should've just busted. And isn't the point of the build to be unstoppable even if scouted - although with him scouting I suppose he could prepare and draw the game out and maybe survive instead of die outright. "terrible build and instantly recognized" wat? Are you massing units underneath an overlord? Well besides the fact that I was doing exactly that, I've found it pretty easy to scout - 13 pool, 15 gas, roach warren before queen is out (which implies early aggression instead of early lair/tech). They could always be doing some kind of expansion build, in which case when you see them expand before 30 you know it's not this build, and you can either respond with full-on aggression, continue doing this build and win, or expand yourself. Your drone should be alive to see the roach warren - I know you say don't scout, but I prefer sending a drone scout and NOT making a spine crawler instead of just making a blind spine crawler. At least, that is how I look at it. Quick note - I hear that 11 extractor trick overlord is better for pooling on 11-13, but bad for 14 pool. So I imagine you want to extractor trick into 13 pool for this build? I'm sure at 13, you're right at the line of both working out, I guess it would take very specific testing to figure out which is marginally better... Sorry, in what ZvZ world do you scout your opponent opening roaches, and then decide to mass ling to counter? I usually go mass speedling off 1 base to deal with anyone who tries to 1 base roach pressure me in early game. I mean that's not stupid right, with enough mass lings you can kill roaches with a surround. However in higher numbers I know that roaches beat lings, and roach/ling beats roach. Is it just me or could you add on an evo chamber instead of the crawler (in case you scout no early thread like an very early pool) cut 2 roaches and mine a little more gas after metabolic to get +1 melee attack, so it should be available for at least the 2nd wave of lings That's a lot more gas, and a lot less lings. A lost drone, lost larva, and cost of evo. I mean maybe it could work, maybe it's just me that thinks it's too costly. To someone responding to my claim of why not just go in-base hatch: Perhaps, but you don't address his second point. 1 base = all-in. If he has a second base and close to equal drone count, he knows he's ahead and he KNOWS you're doing an all-in thats not mutalisk since you did a second hatch that is easily scoutable. Also, this makes it even more all-in since even by doing a shitload of damage like killing the expo, you still only have 20 drones and no expansion. Right, but this is an all-in, for the most part. Your opponent is going to lose, straight up, unless he does something exactly the same or takes a fast hatch. In either case, you will see the opponent hatch before you do, which means you are safe to expand. In fact, that replay that Destiny watched that I posted, that was probably the ONLY game where I expanded instead of going 1 base, and that was only because I saw that the opponent went hatch first. As we see in many replays that Destiny shows us, knowing the attack is coming doesn't save you. You can also always proxy the hatch somewhere completely hidden on the map so they don't see it (doesn't matter how far away it is with speedlings, really, and as long as it's as close to the enemy base as your base is, that's good enough). You could put it in the secret hallway on Xel Naga, for example, or maybe expand to the enemy's third! That could make for some pretty funny games, I think I'm going to do exactly that and upload the replays here actually. The point of the 2nd hatch is not economics, but larva management. The only economic advantage of having 16+4 vs 20 is so marginal I feel it really isn't worth the risk of an open expansion, and only if the opponent fast expanded should you take an expansion instead of inbase/proxy anyways, because that risk isn't there. Anyways, what I'm interested in, is how fast you can get speedlings out if you go 13 pool 15 gas and you see an opponent go hatch first. I think everyone generally agrees going hatch first in ZvZ is pretty stupid, so while hatch first may be the counter to this build, that's just as useful as saying "oh if your opponent likes to go Forge Fast Expansion, you should just 6 pool them" because you can't know these kinds of things until when your drone scout gets to the enemy base. So if you see someone go hatch first and you planned to do this build, you can probably just immediately go for speedlings and pressure the opponent, and expand yourself, and play a normal game - you can either just ruin the opponent with mass speedlings or expand yourself, and not be behind at all in the game (I mean I guess you would be if you don't pressure and just expand yourself, but you can easily just speedling harass him and force him to overreact with spines if he expects to hold his base against pure speedling aggression). | ||
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JustPlay
United States211 Posts
15 hatch beats it clean. So does the standard 2base ZvZ ling/roach timing push that koreans have been using since GSL1 where you cut drones around 24-34 depending on what your opponent is doing. Slow roaches just get across the map too slow, and by the time you have speed they will easily be able to match you in count. Any push with slow roaches (and/or roaches that lack +1 attack) is the opposite of good. There are times you can attack with slow roaches if your opponent puts on his protoss boots and gets greedy, but it should never be your ZvZ plan. It will work against anyone who opens roach, but they are already throwing the game away by doing that. | ||
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
1) I had to put up 5 spines at my nat because i was too greedy and wanted to make drones and not all units even though i knew the attack was coming 2) i had a baneling nest up way in time but didnt make a single baneling, this would have made it so much easier to begin with 3) i let his lings surround my roaches so yes i know my opponent wasnt the strongest but the build clearly has its flaws vs a superior economy ( i had 10-15 roaches when he attacked and i had poor macro^^) | ||
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
He opened with with a fast +1 roach all-in and crushed. | ||
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BigHeadYoony
United States92 Posts
On May 18 2011 13:12 TheLOLas wrote: This looks very strong. Extremely actually. I've heard doatrap and tastosis talk about a roach ling all in recently. Maybe this was it. Can't wait to try this out. EDIT- Just tried it and it has one major flaw. They can baneling bust the roaches that serve as a wall. I did eventually win however because i massed about 24 roaches and took out his base. Just thought i would let you know. Wrong. Roaches are neither light units nor structures, so they are resistant against banelings. Roaches are classified as armored. It would not be cost effective at all to try to baneling bust through wall of roaches. | ||
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Tiamat
United States498 Posts
9 gas 10 ovie 11 Ling 12 Ling 13 Ling 14 Ling 14 Banes Nest 14 Drone 15 Drone Harass with the lings until your banes nest finishes, @ 4 minute mark, spine should be 3/4 done, you might get 1 drone morph them out of site and blow up his drones @ 4:50 right when roach warren pops. The queen and spine does nothing to prevent the damage to the drones, takes a little micro on your part to make sure you trap em. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
edit: gamereplays.org is down, and sc2replayed.com doesn't accept new maps. no good replay sites, wtf. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On May 25 2011 13:44 yoonshik95 wrote: Wrong. Roaches are neither light units nor structures, so they are resistant against banelings. Roaches are classified as armored. It would not be cost effective at all to try to baneling bust through wall of roaches. Yes, it's not cost effective, but if you break the wall with banelings you can make it cost effective afterwards by killing everything. You need 8 Banelings (400m/200g) to destroy a roach wall (225m/75g), but if the opponent doesn't have enough units, breaking it still wins you the game. I still don't like baneling busts, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a valid strategy, even against roach walls. | ||
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FatalRuin
United States45 Posts
Also on a side note: I ran into someone on ladder who was basically following the build by the book and got the blind crawler which I feel might not be needed based on what you scout. As a result he was set back and I pushed out earlier and won because of that spine he built. | ||
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
When a player who is 10x better than u shares a strat and says "this is good ZvZ" i dont understand how Danny Diamond can say "actually this build sucks and will never beat a compitent player" when you have NO idea what you are talking about since u havent played with the build at all yet. | ||
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