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OnFire
324 Posts
It's super easy to scout (especially if you put the spine in your mineral line). It can be strong on certain maps, like Xel'naga or Metalopolis with a wide entrance to the natural but I have no clue how this could work on Shakuras, when you scout it, just put up 2 - 3 spines at natural and mass Roaches... even if he doesn't attack you will be ahead because 1 base roach is a terrible opening for macro play... | ||
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Selias
16 Posts
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
On May 25 2011 16:07 NeonFox wrote: There should be a way to hit that timing with around the same amount of units from a 15 hatch no? Did anyone try this out? You could just do the build everyone is doing against toss. Idra does it on his stream sometimes and he did it against tt1 in the eg masters cup today on xel naga. I personally don't like this build zvz because I think it offers less flexibility then the other zvz allin builds, is easy to scout, and just straight loses to certain builds where other allin builds don't. I don't even think it's that safe because it'll straight lose to early pool + drone + 2 spine allin. I like 9 pool at the moment because people don't really know how to adjust to it yet at high diamond low masters as they're in the dark and you still get a fairly fast expo. You also can get a hatch cancel if they hatch first and you find their location not last. | ||
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Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
This is Destiny's explanation of the build: Essentially you are getting the bare minimum number of drones needed to sustain 2 queens/2 hatcheries worth of zerglings. You mine enough gas for 10 roaches/zerg speed, send 10 roaches the enemy base, then rally mass speedlings behind it. Banelings don't work to counter this because of the 10 roaches you send, and mass lings will die to roach/speedling, and a greater number of roaches will die to roach/ling. If you build even 4-6 too many drones, you will lose the game, it would seem. In games 1 and 2: Destiny opens 14pool and get a late gas around 17ish. Makes a queen, and a set of zerglings, along with a spine in his min line. He gets about 16 drones on mins, and 3 on gas mining all the time. First game he started researching speed at about 8 minutes... and tried to expand but Slush's lings prevented him from doing so for a while. As a result he takes is nat late, and moves out with 16 roaches and alot of speedlings, with more rallied behind. Note this attack comes at 11 minutes. Slush didn't get many extra drones and pretty much had a similar economy to destiny; if he had a few more drones earlier (because destiny opened roach) he would have had more units in the battle. So this attack at 11 minutes... it's certainly not the build he outlined up there ^ with 10 roaches. It hits pretty late. Second game similar opening, but destiny gets his speed faster, but he also moves out with 15 roaches or so. In the battle he overwhelmed slush's 1 base burrow roaches, which had to burrow to stay alive as they were small in numbers and had no speeding support, so in the end destiny killed too much and won Game 3 the student who executed the build, was actually a clear demonstration of what the build is supposed to do. He builds 5 roaches and takes a nat with this, then a further 5 and moves out with speedling support arriving at his enemies natural at 8:10. his opponent did a speedling expand (14gas14pool, speed, take off gas, 4 lings queen then hatch) The timing is pretty nice, hits just after the other player would get a few rounds of drones to utilize his natural. However: Sorry, in what ZvZ world do you scout your opponent opening roaches, and then decide to mass ling to counter? What could be going through an intelligent Z's mind when you see that? "Well, he's on 1 base, maybe he's doing a +1 timing attack with his roaches. I know the only reason you get +1 roaches is so that you can 2shot lings, therefor, I'm going to mass lings in the hope that he expands and transitions out of roaches." I guess it could work, but only a bad Z player would be content to flip a coin like this. The other zerg saw SgtSater take his nat with only 3-5 roaches to defend. No lings anywhere to be seen, nor a queen for support, in the wide open area of the natural. If the opponent had made more speedlings, they would've been able to surround these 4 roaches and kill them easily, not to mention if you have 2 groups, 1 targeting the hatch and the other threatening a runby into the main, it seems impossible that any good zerg player would let you take the nat with so few units The 4th game, destiny opens 15hatch. This game is just basically a roach ling allin off 2 base. Destiny stopped at 25 drones, attacked through the rocks on scrap station. Nothing new here, we all know this transition from 15hatch, it's just that his opponent didn't poke with lings at all so he didnt see destiny busting the rocks (and thus proceeded to start a lair, double evo, drone up to 40) all the while destiny was massing his army What I think of the build:
Not sure if you are on EU Destiny, but if you are I will gladly play you to test how good this really is | ||
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
1) Many people have said that hatch first would produce many more units for that timing attack, can somebody post a replay please. 2) Can either Destiny or somebody else explain why you don't want to go hatch first (maybe this invites 9 pool or something similar?). I think its worth pointing out: -No build is unbeatable -You can't scout this entirely (although you can guess from poking with lings you will only see a couple of roaches, and overlord scout should die and therefore screw you over when the attack comes) -A strong timing attack at the start is always strong. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
But just like 4-gate, when scouted (look for 1 gas only, no Lair, no Evo-Chamber/Baneling-Nest, roach Warren, saved up larva until Roach Warren finishes, all Queen-Energy spent on Injects etc. It's not easy to scout, but if you get in a good scout or read the Zerg well, it's easy to figure out what he's trying to do) it can be hold off. Of course it's harder on some Maps, but that's also true for a 4-gate and it kinda got out of fashion too. Protoss basically can hold it off even if they don't scout it, by having perfect Force-Fields and by playing defensively (3-gate-expand into Forge with maybe a cannon or two). There are also quite heavy Counter-builds, like Dark-shrine into 3-gate-expand or 1- or 2-Gate + Starport for Voidrays into expansion. | ||
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Destiny
United States280 Posts
A few people have mentioned builds involving a hatch first. I -refuse- to hatch first in ANY ZvZ because I don't like flipping coins, and a hatch first will automatically lose to any <10p. As far as my particular opening, it might be more efficient to get ling/bling to open as opposed to roaches, I just don't open ling/bling because it feels retarded to me to ling/bling vs ling/bling. I open roach because others seem to prefer the ling/bling opening. Regardless of how comfortable I feel with my micro, I detest baneling wars. | ||
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Exley
United States239 Posts
On May 25 2011 23:57 kickinhead wrote: It's indeed a very strong build and you're very right in saying that it's close to a 4-gate, cuz it's very aggressive, but it's not technically an all-in, cuz you can still play a Macro-game afterwards. But just like 4-gate, when scouted (look for 1 gas only, no Lair, no Evo-Chamber/Baneling-Nest, roach Warren, saved up larva until Roach Warren finishes, all Queen-Energy spent on Injects etc. It's not easy to scout, but if you get in a good scout or read the Zerg well, it's easy to figure out what he's trying to do) it can be hold off. Of course it's harder on some Maps, but that's also true for a 4-gate and it kinda got out of fashion too. Protoss basically can hold it off even if they don't scout it, by having perfect Force-Fields and by playing defensively (3-gate-expand into Forge with maybe a cannon or two). There are also quite heavy Counter-builds, like Dark-shrine into 3-gate-expand or 1- or 2-Gate + Starport for Voidrays into expansion. This is a specifically ZvZ build --- if you had read the thread you probably would've picked that up. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/72088/hatch first.SC2Replay Builds are far from perfect but just did them in yabot to get a general idea of how many units you can get out with each build. Even if he has 10 roaches and 30 slings hitting your nat at the 8:10 mark, with 15 hatch 14 pool they can have 3 spines, a queen at each hatch, and 16 roaches out. I did 16 roaches and a queen vs 10 roaches and 30 slings in unit tester and the 16 roaches + queen had 7 roaches left. The hatch first player has so many more drones, and you can see the roaches leave so you know when you can start making pure roach ling to defend. I haven't had as much success with this build as other cheesy zvz builds on ladder and people hold it off without breaking a sweat if they scout or know the build. There's not much this build beats. | ||
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Destiny
United States280 Posts
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Andorra
Andorra64 Posts
Also..maybe if people are so confident that this can be easily stopped we can maybe see a showmatch between those people and Destiny?! | ||
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EvilZergling
United States194 Posts
I'm no grandmaster but it should still be helpful if not entertaining  . | ||
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Destiny
United States280 Posts
On May 21 2011 01:02 EvilZergling wrote: I have beat this build repeatedly against several players that have adopted it recently. It's far from unstoppable and actually laughable against the 9pool build.
* 10 - Overlord * 10 - 6 Zerglings (3pairs) * 13 - Queen (1) --> Inject * Drone to 17 * 17 - Overlord * @Queen (1) complete, Queen #2 + Extractor (1) * @Queen #2 complete, Queen #3 + Creep Tumor * Move both queens to block ramp from counters/all-ins * Drone to 24 * 24 - 3 drones in gas + Roach Warren * @Roach warren complete, 5 Roaches * @Roaches complete, expand and use roaches to defend natural while first 2 queens continue to block ramp, possibly add a spine. Evo Chamber (1) * @100 gas, Lair * @100 gas, +1 attack * @100 gas, Roach Speed * @+1 attk 25% completed, cut drones, mass roaches * @Upgrades near complete, go attack. *Note: from here you pretty much gauge your next move. If you feel you can win then continue to reinforce with units otherwise drone up and drop an infestation pit and possibly 2 more spines. Used this build in practice games against this said destiny build and smashed it with 100% success rate. This build puts you at a disadvantage from the start against 14g13p, though, so I don't see why you would ever open with this build. It also seems like it would put you at a severe economic disadvantage against someone who wanted to play a standard macro game, as you're expanding pretty late with this build. Also, I have a hard time believing this can even stop the aforementioned roach/ling all-in. Would you care to try it against me in a game? | ||
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noobzorus
Canada10 Posts
In case anyone is interested in my problems here's a replay of me doing this build: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-210854.jpg) | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
Here's me failing against a guy on ladder with the roach ling allin. I could probably shave half a minute off my time when I attack but still I don't think I have a chance to win. My best chance to win is attack with my initial roaches but he'd still be able to hold imo and have the ability to pump more units and still have an expo. Plus it strays from the build that's supposed to beat everything unless he does the same build. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/72088/roachlingvs9pool.SC2Replay Here's me doing a 9 pool against a guy doing the roach ling allin. Again, he could probably shave some seconds off his build but I could have done a better job as well. Since the build is supposed to crush everything I think it shows that's it's not so awesome if I can hold it while not playing optimally. He was probably better off doing a ling run by but I should have had my roaches closer to my ramp or have it blocked off so I think that evens out. For some reason in game it didn't register in my head that he was even doing the roach ling allin at the time until it happened. All the people on ladder were diamond and I think it should be good enough to get the general idea. The roach ling thing is held off by so many builds, and it gets raped by so many other cheeses. | ||
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TheSwamp
United States1497 Posts
On May 18 2011 14:16 MrBitter wrote: Destiny's trolling you guys. 1 base roach will lose to 2 base roach every time.... And the build Tastosis are talking about is against a Toss that is fast expanding or they are talking about Nestea's plus one timing in ZvZ. For this to be equivalent to a 4gate, it would have to be able to work in all match ups in every position. | ||
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plasemeious
United States244 Posts
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teh_longinator
Canada725 Posts
It's definitely not guaranteed, and most of that might be because of lack of skill... but it is definitely a huge help to have this build under your belt... | ||
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Tvk
Latvia62 Posts
Dunno in what league need to play to call it "unstoppable" this build loose 24/7 to 15hut + mass roach. This build gets pwned by 2base speedlings. Such lulz. | ||
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