|
On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 00:28 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 00:19 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal. but its not a 1base.. if you had taken the time to read the op it clearly involves an expo. And while 34 might be late, in ZvZ games can stay on 1 base for up to 40-50 food.so a 34 food expo isnt that uncommon o.O The sheer volume of misinformation that's flying around in here is both damaging to the community and sad... Eventually expanding doesn't really qualify as 2-base play. 13 pool, 15 gas, blind spine crawler into 5 roaches and an eventual expand IS a 1-base build, and its going to lose badly to any fast expanding player that does something similar. If you do this roach-expand, and your opponent goes 15 hatch, makes 2 more drones than you, and then starts pumping the same units, you're going to lose every single time. And its going to be EASY for your opponent to do that, because he's going to have a handful of lings in your natural, and an overlord checking out your ramp. This is a 22 drone all-in. That's not even enough to saturate a single base. Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time.
it obviously is a 1base build in that all of its production is pretty much done of the initial hatch. but there IS an expo, and therefore u cant say its easily scoutable because its 1 base. If u hang around long enough to see what comes out of the eggs, then yes. you'll see the 1base coming by a mile. but then when your doing this build your obviously trying to deny that info...
Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time.
Welcome to starcraft
|
On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:
Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time.
This is too true. Sometimes TL seems to be all about some mythical unbeatable build. And it starts with a perfect drone split!!!
Scout, react, counter. And do a perfect drone split.
Also that "unintentional troll" post about Bush was awful.
|
On May 18 2011 13:06 Stam wrote:
* Queen 3/4% Roach Warren
you sure are going to be hard pressed to drop that roach warren at exactly 3/4s of a percent 
On topic, sounds like an interesting build. I guess the strength comes from the timing before lair units come out. Or even if they go for an early lair, the sheer number will just kill him.
|
On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 00:28 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 00:19 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal. but its not a 1base.. if you had taken the time to read the op it clearly involves an expo. And while 34 might be late, in ZvZ games can stay on 1 base for up to 40-50 food.so a 34 food expo isnt that uncommon o.O The sheer volume of misinformation that's flying around in here is both damaging to the community and sad... Eventually expanding doesn't really qualify as 2-base play. 13 pool, 15 gas, blind spine crawler into 5 roaches and an eventual expand IS a 1-base build, and its going to lose badly to any fast expanding player that does something similar. If you do this roach-expand, and your opponent goes 15 hatch, makes 2 more drones than you, and then starts pumping the same units, you're going to lose every single time. And its going to be EASY for your opponent to do that, because he's going to have a handful of lings in your natural, and an overlord checking out your ramp. This is a 22 drone all-in. That's not even enough to saturate a single base. Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time.
Thank you for defending my honor MrBitter even though we are fierce rivals in our master's division. I look foward to meeting you at dallas. This concept is lost on many weaker players. I should develop a 3-base roach all-in where I build a lot of roaches, throw down 2 random hatcheries and then attack.
|
How is this equivalent to a 4-gate at all? It's not even a "build" more so than a strategy. You can do this off of hatch first and have a much earlier timing. You could do this off of speedlings and put pressure early on. It's just a 2 base roach/ling attack, except with a suboptimal transition into that attack. It's also been around for a while. I've had people like Cella doing this to me months ago, and it's completely defendable as long as you're not too greedy with drones.
Don't get me wrong, it's a solid strategy. But don't sell it for more than it is.
|
On May 19 2011 00:58 dan1mal wrote:
it obviously is a 1base build in that all of its production is pretty much done of the initial hatch. but there IS an expo, and therefore u cant say its easily scoutable because its 1 base. If u hang around long enough to see what comes out of the eggs, then yes. you'll see the 1base coming by a mile. but then when your doing this build your obviously trying to deny that info...
You can't deny scouting from speedlings and overlords in zvz to stuff OUTSIDE YOUR BASE. If you think you can, I don't think you've ever played a ZvZ before or seriously tried to understand one.
As for your quote, it's really dismissive of what it takes to scout and correctly react to some builds. SC2 is not rock paper scissors. For example, it's not really possible for the non-speedling opening to keep map control and scouting presence, it is possible for the speedling build. Scouting still has to fit into the capabilities of your units.
|
On May 19 2011 01:35 MoreFaSho wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:On May 19 2011 00:28 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 00:19 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal. but its not a 1base.. if you had taken the time to read the op it clearly involves an expo. And while 34 might be late, in ZvZ games can stay on 1 base for up to 40-50 food.so a 34 food expo isnt that uncommon o.O The sheer volume of misinformation that's flying around in here is both damaging to the community and sad... Eventually expanding doesn't really qualify as 2-base play. 13 pool, 15 gas, blind spine crawler into 5 roaches and an eventual expand IS a 1-base build, and its going to lose badly to any fast expanding player that does something similar. If you do this roach-expand, and your opponent goes 15 hatch, makes 2 more drones than you, and then starts pumping the same units, you're going to lose every single time. And its going to be EASY for your opponent to do that, because he's going to have a handful of lings in your natural, and an overlord checking out your ramp. This is a 22 drone all-in. That's not even enough to saturate a single base. Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time. Thank you for defending my honor MrBitter even though we are fierce rivals in our master's division. I look foward to meeting you at dallas. This concept is lost on many weaker players. I should develop a 3-base roach all-in where I build a lot of roaches, throw down 2 random hatcheries and then attack.
again, your not reading, I never said it was a 2 base push. I said that u cant just scout the fact that there isnt a natural.. Since there is..
+ u cant just go around calling people "weaker players". Since you've never played vs 90% of people ur talking with here, and you wont know
|
On May 19 2011 01:43 dan1mal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:35 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:On May 19 2011 00:28 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 00:19 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal. but its not a 1base.. if you had taken the time to read the op it clearly involves an expo. And while 34 might be late, in ZvZ games can stay on 1 base for up to 40-50 food.so a 34 food expo isnt that uncommon o.O The sheer volume of misinformation that's flying around in here is both damaging to the community and sad... Eventually expanding doesn't really qualify as 2-base play. 13 pool, 15 gas, blind spine crawler into 5 roaches and an eventual expand IS a 1-base build, and its going to lose badly to any fast expanding player that does something similar. If you do this roach-expand, and your opponent goes 15 hatch, makes 2 more drones than you, and then starts pumping the same units, you're going to lose every single time. And its going to be EASY for your opponent to do that, because he's going to have a handful of lings in your natural, and an overlord checking out your ramp. This is a 22 drone all-in. That's not even enough to saturate a single base. Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time. Thank you for defending my honor MrBitter even though we are fierce rivals in our master's division. I look foward to meeting you at dallas. This concept is lost on many weaker players. I should develop a 3-base roach all-in where I build a lot of roaches, throw down 2 random hatcheries and then attack. again, your not reading, I never said it was a 2 base push. I said that u cant just scout the fact that there isnt a natural.. Since there is.. + u cant just go around calling people "weaker players". Since you've never played vs 90% of people ur talking with here, and you wont know
You can scout the ramp, where the roaches are blocking.
You can scout the gasses, where you can see "oh he's mined exactly 300 and stopped".
You can scout the mineral line, where you can literally count all 22 of the drones be builds.
And you can see when he pushes down to expand........
There's a lot of information in there.
"Oh he went fast roach. No baneling pressure."
"Oh, he's blocking his ramp. He wants to hide something."
"Oh, he's only mined 300 gas. No lair, no mutas."
"Oh, he's stopped droning. Looks like an all-in."
|
On May 19 2011 01:43 dan1mal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:35 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:On May 19 2011 00:28 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 00:19 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal. but its not a 1base.. if you had taken the time to read the op it clearly involves an expo. And while 34 might be late, in ZvZ games can stay on 1 base for up to 40-50 food.so a 34 food expo isnt that uncommon o.O The sheer volume of misinformation that's flying around in here is both damaging to the community and sad... Eventually expanding doesn't really qualify as 2-base play. 13 pool, 15 gas, blind spine crawler into 5 roaches and an eventual expand IS a 1-base build, and its going to lose badly to any fast expanding player that does something similar. If you do this roach-expand, and your opponent goes 15 hatch, makes 2 more drones than you, and then starts pumping the same units, you're going to lose every single time. And its going to be EASY for your opponent to do that, because he's going to have a handful of lings in your natural, and an overlord checking out your ramp. This is a 22 drone all-in. That's not even enough to saturate a single base. Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time. Thank you for defending my honor MrBitter even though we are fierce rivals in our master's division. I look foward to meeting you at dallas. This concept is lost on many weaker players. I should develop a 3-base roach all-in where I build a lot of roaches, throw down 2 random hatcheries and then attack. again, your not reading, I never said it was a 2 base push. I said that u cant just scout the fact that there isnt a natural.. Since there is.. + u cant just go around calling people "weaker players". Since you've never played vs 90% of people ur talking with here, and you wont know
I understand you're just trying to defend your lord and savior, Destiny. You don't do him any favors with your awful english in every post. Yes, you can scout that there isn't a natural. The eventual creation of a natural is of no consequence: 7RR expands faster than this, and nobody would call that "two base play." In the early game ZvZ, you scout for drone count, pool timing, an expo, and a roach warren. If you don't see a hatch out by around 22 supply, you know some all-in is coming.
Your comments about this build being acceptable when it is auto-loss at higher level is just plain absurd. Maybe some sort of cannon rush works at lower levels, or maybe a carrier rush does too. Does that mean that it's something good to teach, when at high silver you have to toss it out?
Your comments about scouting leading to winning also betray your complete ignorance of the game. There are solid builds which are not auto-loss if scouted (14/14, 15 hatch, etc). They try and force a mid-game through solid play. An opening that is easily scoutable, doesn't hit until 8:30-9:00, and is auto-loss if scouted, is just a non-starter.
|
On May 18 2011 14:16 MrBitter wrote:
Destiny's trolling you guys.
1 base roach will lose to 2 base roach every time....
100% Correct. You can either go 15 hatch or 21 hatch and use 12-16 speedlings for map control, deny expo, and just drone hard. As soon as you see he has roaches (when initial 6 pop), you can drop your own warren and start making roaches. Play defensively and your unit counts will be relatively even and you'll have more drones (as well as faster reinforcements).
This build is basically the 7RR build anyways.
|
On May 19 2011 01:49 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:43 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 01:35 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:On May 19 2011 00:28 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 00:19 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal. but its not a 1base.. if you had taken the time to read the op it clearly involves an expo. And while 34 might be late, in ZvZ games can stay on 1 base for up to 40-50 food.so a 34 food expo isnt that uncommon o.O The sheer volume of misinformation that's flying around in here is both damaging to the community and sad... Eventually expanding doesn't really qualify as 2-base play. 13 pool, 15 gas, blind spine crawler into 5 roaches and an eventual expand IS a 1-base build, and its going to lose badly to any fast expanding player that does something similar. If you do this roach-expand, and your opponent goes 15 hatch, makes 2 more drones than you, and then starts pumping the same units, you're going to lose every single time. And its going to be EASY for your opponent to do that, because he's going to have a handful of lings in your natural, and an overlord checking out your ramp. This is a 22 drone all-in. That's not even enough to saturate a single base. Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time. Thank you for defending my honor MrBitter even though we are fierce rivals in our master's division. I look foward to meeting you at dallas. This concept is lost on many weaker players. I should develop a 3-base roach all-in where I build a lot of roaches, throw down 2 random hatcheries and then attack. again, your not reading, I never said it was a 2 base push. I said that u cant just scout the fact that there isnt a natural.. Since there is.. + u cant just go around calling people "weaker players". Since you've never played vs 90% of people ur talking with here, and you wont know You can scout the ramp, where the roaches are blocking. You can scout the gasses, where you can see "oh he's mined exactly 300 and stopped". You can scout the mineral line, where you can literally count all 22 of the drones be builds. And you can see when he pushes down to expand........ There's a lot of information in there. "Oh he went fast roach. No baneling pressure." "Oh, he's blocking his ramp. He wants to hide something." "Oh, he's only mined 300 gas. No lair, no mutas." "Oh, he's stopped droning. Looks like an all-in."
im not saying the build is unscoutable, nothing is nor am I saying this buildis half decent, im just saying that you cant argue its bad because u can scout it and when you do build X,Y,and Z beat it. because that applies to every build in the game.
On May 19 2011 01:50 Shahrazad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:43 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 01:35 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:On May 19 2011 00:28 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 00:19 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal. but its not a 1base.. if you had taken the time to read the op it clearly involves an expo. And while 34 might be late, in ZvZ games can stay on 1 base for up to 40-50 food.so a 34 food expo isnt that uncommon o.O The sheer volume of misinformation that's flying around in here is both damaging to the community and sad... Eventually expanding doesn't really qualify as 2-base play. 13 pool, 15 gas, blind spine crawler into 5 roaches and an eventual expand IS a 1-base build, and its going to lose badly to any fast expanding player that does something similar. If you do this roach-expand, and your opponent goes 15 hatch, makes 2 more drones than you, and then starts pumping the same units, you're going to lose every single time. And its going to be EASY for your opponent to do that, because he's going to have a handful of lings in your natural, and an overlord checking out your ramp. This is a 22 drone all-in. That's not even enough to saturate a single base. Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time. Thank you for defending my honor MrBitter even though we are fierce rivals in our master's division. I look foward to meeting you at dallas. This concept is lost on many weaker players. I should develop a 3-base roach all-in where I build a lot of roaches, throw down 2 random hatcheries and then attack. again, your not reading, I never said it was a 2 base push. I said that u cant just scout the fact that there isnt a natural.. Since there is.. + u cant just go around calling people "weaker players". Since you've never played vs 90% of people ur talking with here, and you wont know I understand you're just trying to defend your god and savior, Destiny. You don't do him any favors with your awful english in every post. Yes, you can scout that there isn't a natural. The eventual creation of a natural is of no consequence: 7RR expands faster than this, and nobody would call that "two base play." In the early game ZvZ, you scout for drone count, pool timing, an expo, and a roach warren. If you don't see a hatch out by around 22 supply, you know some all-in is coming. Your comments about this build being acceptable when it is auto-loss at higher level is just plain absurd. Maybe some sort of cannon rush works at lower levels, or maybe a carrier rush does too. Does that mean that it's something good to teach, when at high silver you have to toss it out? Your comments about scouting leading to winning also betray your complete ignorance of the game. There are solid builds which are not auto-loss if scouted (14/14, 15 hatch, etc). They try and force a mid-game through solid play. An opening that is easily scoutable, doesn't hit until 8:30-9:00, and is auto-loss if scouted, is just a non-starter.
im doing no such thing, I think destiny is a bad player and an attention whore, and ill never do this build because its less good than just outmacro-ing. all im saying is that people are giving retarded and useless arguments as to why its bad.
And im sorry if my 2nd language isnt up to par. Wanna converse in dutch instead?
|
On May 19 2011 01:53 dan1mal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:49 MrBitter wrote:On May 19 2011 01:43 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 01:35 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:On May 19 2011 00:28 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 00:19 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal. but its not a 1base.. if you had taken the time to read the op it clearly involves an expo. And while 34 might be late, in ZvZ games can stay on 1 base for up to 40-50 food.so a 34 food expo isnt that uncommon o.O The sheer volume of misinformation that's flying around in here is both damaging to the community and sad... Eventually expanding doesn't really qualify as 2-base play. 13 pool, 15 gas, blind spine crawler into 5 roaches and an eventual expand IS a 1-base build, and its going to lose badly to any fast expanding player that does something similar. If you do this roach-expand, and your opponent goes 15 hatch, makes 2 more drones than you, and then starts pumping the same units, you're going to lose every single time. And its going to be EASY for your opponent to do that, because he's going to have a handful of lings in your natural, and an overlord checking out your ramp. This is a 22 drone all-in. That's not even enough to saturate a single base. Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time. Thank you for defending my honor MrBitter even though we are fierce rivals in our master's division. I look foward to meeting you at dallas. This concept is lost on many weaker players. I should develop a 3-base roach all-in where I build a lot of roaches, throw down 2 random hatcheries and then attack. again, your not reading, I never said it was a 2 base push. I said that u cant just scout the fact that there isnt a natural.. Since there is.. + u cant just go around calling people "weaker players". Since you've never played vs 90% of people ur talking with here, and you wont know You can scout the ramp, where the roaches are blocking. You can scout the gasses, where you can see "oh he's mined exactly 300 and stopped". You can scout the mineral line, where you can literally count all 22 of the drones be builds. And you can see when he pushes down to expand........ There's a lot of information in there. "Oh he went fast roach. No baneling pressure." "Oh, he's blocking his ramp. He wants to hide something." "Oh, he's only mined 300 gas. No lair, no mutas." "Oh, he's stopped droning. Looks like an all-in." im not saying the build is unscoutable, nothing is nor am I saying this buildis half decent, im just saying that you cant argue its bad because u can scout it and when you do build X,Y,and Z beat it. because that applies to every build in the game.
No, it doesn't. You need a better understanding of the definition of "solid play."
|
On May 19 2011 01:55 Shahrazad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:53 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 01:49 MrBitter wrote:On May 19 2011 01:43 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 01:35 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:On May 19 2011 00:28 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 00:19 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal. but its not a 1base.. if you had taken the time to read the op it clearly involves an expo. And while 34 might be late, in ZvZ games can stay on 1 base for up to 40-50 food.so a 34 food expo isnt that uncommon o.O The sheer volume of misinformation that's flying around in here is both damaging to the community and sad... Eventually expanding doesn't really qualify as 2-base play. 13 pool, 15 gas, blind spine crawler into 5 roaches and an eventual expand IS a 1-base build, and its going to lose badly to any fast expanding player that does something similar. If you do this roach-expand, and your opponent goes 15 hatch, makes 2 more drones than you, and then starts pumping the same units, you're going to lose every single time. And its going to be EASY for your opponent to do that, because he's going to have a handful of lings in your natural, and an overlord checking out your ramp. This is a 22 drone all-in. That's not even enough to saturate a single base. Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time. Thank you for defending my honor MrBitter even though we are fierce rivals in our master's division. I look foward to meeting you at dallas. This concept is lost on many weaker players. I should develop a 3-base roach all-in where I build a lot of roaches, throw down 2 random hatcheries and then attack. again, your not reading, I never said it was a 2 base push. I said that u cant just scout the fact that there isnt a natural.. Since there is.. + u cant just go around calling people "weaker players". Since you've never played vs 90% of people ur talking with here, and you wont know You can scout the ramp, where the roaches are blocking. You can scout the gasses, where you can see "oh he's mined exactly 300 and stopped". You can scout the mineral line, where you can literally count all 22 of the drones be builds. And you can see when he pushes down to expand........ There's a lot of information in there. "Oh he went fast roach. No baneling pressure." "Oh, he's blocking his ramp. He wants to hide something." "Oh, he's only mined 300 gas. No lair, no mutas." "Oh, he's stopped droning. Looks like an all-in." im not saying the build is unscoutable, nothing is nor am I saying this buildis half decent, im just saying that you cant argue its bad because u can scout it and when you do build X,Y,and Z beat it. because that applies to every build in the game. No, it doesn't. You need a better understanding of the definition of "solid play."
every single timing push in the game has a counter, every single timing push in the game can be scouted, therefore every single build in the game can be ignored because they can be countered by "scouting and reacting" ?
no, not really
|
On May 19 2011 01:53 dan1mal wrote:
im not saying the build is unscoutable, nothing is nor am I saying this buildis half decent, im just saying that you cant argue its bad because u can scout it and when you do build X,Y,and Z beat it. because that applies to every build in the game.
No, this build is VERY easily scoutable. When they stay on 1 base for so long (even if you can't see gas timings), it's one of 3 things: Roach ling all-in, Muta, fast infestor. 2 base roach ling with an evo (to drop emergency spores when your ovies around the map see his mutas) will beat that pretty much 100% of the time.
If you have a solid opener, all you need to do is transition once you see the roaches at his ramp and you pretty much have the game won. I was practicing with a friend (top master's player) and he kept trying this build against me and won exactly 0 of the 6 we played.
|
On May 19 2011 01:53 dan1mal wrote:
im doing no such thing, I think destiny is a bad player and an attention whore, and ill never do this build because its less good than just outmacro-ing. all im saying is that people are giving retarded and useless arguments as to why its bad.
And im sorry if my 2nd language isnt up to par. Wanna converse in dutch instead?
Last edit: 2011-05-19 01:58:22
You shouldn't edit your post after somebody has replied to it. I replied to your post at 1:55.
|
On May 19 2011 02:00 dan1mal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:55 Shahrazad wrote:On May 19 2011 01:53 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 01:49 MrBitter wrote:On May 19 2011 01:43 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 01:35 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:36 MrBitter wrote:On May 19 2011 00:28 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 00:19 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal. but its not a 1base.. if you had taken the time to read the op it clearly involves an expo. And while 34 might be late, in ZvZ games can stay on 1 base for up to 40-50 food.so a 34 food expo isnt that uncommon o.O The sheer volume of misinformation that's flying around in here is both damaging to the community and sad... Eventually expanding doesn't really qualify as 2-base play. 13 pool, 15 gas, blind spine crawler into 5 roaches and an eventual expand IS a 1-base build, and its going to lose badly to any fast expanding player that does something similar. If you do this roach-expand, and your opponent goes 15 hatch, makes 2 more drones than you, and then starts pumping the same units, you're going to lose every single time. And its going to be EASY for your opponent to do that, because he's going to have a handful of lings in your natural, and an overlord checking out your ramp. This is a 22 drone all-in. That's not even enough to saturate a single base. Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time. Thank you for defending my honor MrBitter even though we are fierce rivals in our master's division. I look foward to meeting you at dallas. This concept is lost on many weaker players. I should develop a 3-base roach all-in where I build a lot of roaches, throw down 2 random hatcheries and then attack. again, your not reading, I never said it was a 2 base push. I said that u cant just scout the fact that there isnt a natural.. Since there is.. + u cant just go around calling people "weaker players". Since you've never played vs 90% of people ur talking with here, and you wont know You can scout the ramp, where the roaches are blocking. You can scout the gasses, where you can see "oh he's mined exactly 300 and stopped". You can scout the mineral line, where you can literally count all 22 of the drones be builds. And you can see when he pushes down to expand........ There's a lot of information in there. "Oh he went fast roach. No baneling pressure." "Oh, he's blocking his ramp. He wants to hide something." "Oh, he's only mined 300 gas. No lair, no mutas." "Oh, he's stopped droning. Looks like an all-in." im not saying the build is unscoutable, nothing is nor am I saying this buildis half decent, im just saying that you cant argue its bad because u can scout it and when you do build X,Y,and Z beat it. because that applies to every build in the game. No, it doesn't. You need a better understanding of the definition of "solid play." every single timing push in the game has a counter, every single timing push in the game can be scouted, therefore every single build in the game can be ignored because they can be countered by "scouting and reacting" ? no, not really
This can't be defined as much of a "timing push" because the only timing it will hit is vs. a greedy, over-droning, non-scouting opponent. A timing push exploits a clear "timing window," and there is no such thing here.
|
On May 19 2011 02:01 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:53 dan1mal wrote:
im not saying the build is unscoutable, nothing is nor am I saying this buildis half decent, im just saying that you cant argue its bad because u can scout it and when you do build X,Y,and Z beat it. because that applies to every build in the game. No, this build is VERY easily scoutable. When they stay on 1 base for so long (even if you can't see gas timings), it's one of 3 things: Roach ling all-in, Muta, fast infestor. 2 base roach ling with an evo (to drop emergency spores when your ovies around the map see his mutas) will beat that pretty much 100% of the time. If you have a solid opener, all you need to do is transition once you see the roaches at his ramp and you pretty much have the game won. I was practicing with a friend (top master's player) and he kept trying this build against me and won exactly 0 of the 6 we played.
Might wanna read the post your responding to before responding
On May 19 2011 01:53 dan1mal wrote:
nor am I saying this build is half decent.
I know the build is probably bad, and all that. And I couldnt care less, but I do care about people argueing its bad for the wrong reasons
|
On May 19 2011 02:02 Shahrazad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:53 dan1mal wrote:
im doing no such thing, I think destiny is a bad player and an attention whore, and ill never do this build because its less good than just outmacro-ing. all im saying is that people are giving retarded and useless arguments as to why its bad.
And im sorry if my 2nd language isnt up to par. Wanna converse in dutch instead?
Last edit: 2011-05-19 01:58:22
You shouldn't edit your post after somebody has replied to it. I replied to your post at 1:55.
the edit was to prevent double post
|
On May 19 2011 02:00 dan1mal wrote:
every single timing push in the game has a counter, every single timing push in the game can be scouted, therefore every single build in the game can be ignored because they can be countered by "scouting and reacting" ?
no, not really
you might agree with your dissenters more than you think - at least from my point of view, i think some people are saying "it's not unbeatable" - which would be in agreement with you.
Whether it's really strong or not is probably secondary to the point above
|
This build can work in Diamond and Masters.
I actually lost 2 games recently to Roach ling all Ins.
One of them was on Shakuras with a Nydus Worm. I killed the worm but 5 roaches came out followed by a second nydus.
The main reason why this works, If me (protoss) Is playing extra greedy and still building infrastructure/upgrades around 50 food.
I had maybe 3 sentries covering my front and 2 stalkers backing them up.
I pulled probes and stalkers to hit the Nydus. But failed miserably.
The second map this build works on I think is Scrap station.
Where the protoss can often early expand.
The part where this build becomes good. Is you will scout initially, and see a zerg expansion with lings going. So you say, standard zerg macro.
WIth that being said the all in is now no longer detectable. Because on the Roach warren is out, the zerg starts massing units while you are probe building and laying down buildings.
I think this is a very strong build against protoss who go for anything under a 30 food nexus.
Otherwise it can be countered by good FFs and good reinforcements.
In ZvZ. Whatever I can't comment! 
However this specific build order could use tweaking versus protoss. I don't see why get a 36 Queen... I just like the Concept of massing units early off 2 hatches for ling/roach Hatch tech pressure.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
