EPT[D] Zerg equivalent to a 4-Gate - Page 6
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
McBrungus
United States265 Posts
| ||
|
KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On May 19 2011 11:54 McBrungus wrote: As far as I'm concerned, this build is simply a strong timing, kind of like the ones Machine showcased early on in Mr. Bitter's "12 Weeks" series that can certainly work at lower levels or against opponents who don't expect it. That said, whenever I see my opponents in a ZvZ going one base roach I start licking my chops and trying to figure out how many points I'm going to get from beating him. Seriously people, the rushing to the first six roaches has nothing to do with the timing. This is simply to counter 1base baneling... This timing even stronger off of hatch first, especially given that the reaction to hatch first is far less defensive than a 1base roach opening... | ||
|
Lightningbullet
United States507 Posts
User was temp banned from Strategy Forum for this post. | ||
|
DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
On May 19 2011 12:02 Lightningbullet wrote: I think an early zealot scout(s) will annoy some drones and disrupt your play for a while. Or you can just go 2 base and burrow BANELINGS!!! :D  On May 18 2011 13:06 Stam wrote: In a recent video [below], Destiny outlined a ZvZ build he called "unstoppable" and "wins every single ZvZ up to grandmasters". The build seems to be as follows (thanks to ItsBricksOutHere): Ah, zealot scout in ZvZ... Brilliant! lulz In case you didn't notice, this is a ZvZ strategy. | ||
|
michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On May 18 2011 13:40 Shahrazad wrote: I don't see how this is going to hold any speedling all-in, especially with the "no scout" advice. If you watch the video, he has nothing at 5:00 but a spine and a queen. I've done speedling openers as default in zvz for months, and that spine plus queen, and the roach timing will hold against whatever you can do at any time. I don't like destiny at all, but this is a very strong build (which I guess is fine since it's not his build or idea). I don't see any point in the game where any speedling all-in could beat that opener if the defender has some competent level of drone/queen micro. | ||
|
Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
I think calling it 4-gate is apt in it's comparison to pvp 4-gate post-nerf. While you CAN do other strats and win, this will quickly become a baseline timing push everyone has to be preping/scouting for. | ||
|
Tropical Bob
United States127 Posts
On May 19 2011 12:36 michaelhasanalias wrote: I've done speedling openers as default in zvz for months, and that spine plus queen, and the roach timing will hold against whatever you can do at any time. I don't like destiny at all, but this is a very strong build (which I guess is fine since it's not his build or idea). I don't see any point in the game where any speedling all-in could beat that opener if the defender has some competent level of drone/queen micro. If you've got him restricted to having Queens and Drones huddled around the Spine in the mineral line, that means you have "control" of his base. His first 6 Roaches may not be able to wall off (Depending on whether you have enough Speedlings to threaten them) and stop the Lings from massing in. Also, if those Roaches move off the ramp to defend the natural Hatch, Speedling Surround, Inc.; if they stay on the ramp, that's quite a heavy denial of Larvae if the Hatch is lost. So that means there should be a timing to contain him entirely to his mineral line before/when the first 6 Roaches pop, and possibly another timing when he tries to expand if you miss the first one. Personally, any time I see a Roach wall, I immediately go into mass Ling contain mode and work towards +1 Carapace -> +1 Melee, or even straight +1 Melee if I didn't spot an Evolution Chamber. Both will most likely not finish fast enough from the first scout to the push, but if you can even slow down the push at the beginning, it's going to lose a lot of steam methinks. | ||
|
ishboh
United States954 Posts
1) too vulnerable to early aggression or 2) easily countered is a build worth trying in my book. I will definitely fool around with it. | ||
|
Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
The biggest problem with this build are two things: 1. It's detectable and 2. Any opponent who expos faster than you and sees you coming (big grace to the overlords) will just start massing roaches. True, this might work on close-ground positions, but cross-map or cross-air just nullifies this attack. An 8 pool stops this because the spine crawlers is only 65% up and your queen is almost popping by the time the lings have already taking out two to three drones. Additionally, when you try to expo, mass lings pretty much destroy your roaches and denies your expo, preventing you from actually following up into your masterful push. I've tried it 8 times and even when done perfectly or with slight alterations, two things occur: 1. the opponent simply gets a slightly better economy than you or 2. he simply out numbers your lings and roaches by a severe amount. The video is terrible because the guy engaged his roaches into destiny's built-army letting the lings get a surround. Back yourself up to a wall, funnel the lings and you pretty much destroyed half his army. Additional lings are coming in for support, but at the same time your roach reinforcements are already incoming. How this could work beyond Diamond is beyond my understanding. This isn't the 4-gate because it leaves too much time for your opponent to see you only producing units and respond accurately (in most cases, a lot of roaches with soon +1 attack). Additionally, getting ling and banelings + 1 is nothing unusual to break a wall of what, 6 roaches (by the time it is done) | ||
|
genopath
80 Posts
Has anyone tested this against P? I wonder if it could work with some slight modifications. Like avoiding the first spine. | ||
|
Lixo
202 Posts
I didn't know the build at all, I just rode this post and it made me think "it looks like what that guy did earlier", and indeed. The game was a close position on shattered temple, I did open 14 hatch 14 pool with no gaz, did few lings, 3 spine, 4 queens, taken all 4 gaz at 44 and chocked at my ramp a bit with 2 evos+roach warren (spanishiwa, thank you). He had absolutely no clue of what I was doing until his push as he just applied the BO without thinking outside the box one second and couldn't punish. I had like 14 lings when he pushed out, but my spines along with transfusion did fend him off long enough for me to get more lings, then roaches, which where 1-1 as they popped out. From there his speedlings couldn't match, and I killed him by attacking at 2-2+speed roaches. The fact is that I had to pull drones at one point, but with such a huge harvester advantage (40-50 to 22-25), doesn't matter much. His execution was a bit sloppy too, and his micro perfectable, but mine was too. It was a mid-diamond game. | ||
|
Superpower
Australia212 Posts
| ||
|
isospeedrix
United States215 Posts
| ||
|
Fir3fly
Australia251 Posts
its definitely a strong push though. but a backstab would nullify it pretty quickly. | ||
|
Kogut
United States147 Posts
On May 18 2011 14:02 PR4Y wrote: I haven't watched the video, but I remember seeing him teaching this live, and at one point he had his student doing it against EASY AI opponents and volunteer silver/gold players... The point of the strategy forum is to discuss strategies that are viable at ALL LEVELS OF PLAY.... This strategy is simply NOT VIABLE at anything above silver/gold league, making the thread worthless and counter-intuitive. Good job posting without watching, thus making anything you type invalid. If you remember this, you'd remember that the first time he teaches the student, it's against a diamond zerg opponent. This is in the video. "I didn't watch it, but" just isn't the way to go about preaching strategy forum principles. | ||
|
michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On May 19 2011 21:45 Tropical Bob wrote: If you've got him restricted to having Queens and Drones huddled around the Spine in the mineral line, that means you have "control" of his base. His first 6 Roaches may not be able to wall off (Depending on whether you have enough Speedlings to threaten them) and stop the Lings from massing in. Also, if those Roaches move off the ramp to defend the natural Hatch, Speedling Surround, Inc.; if they stay on the ramp, that's quite a heavy denial of Larvae if the Hatch is lost. So that means there should be a timing to contain him entirely to his mineral line before/when the first 6 Roaches pop, and possibly another timing when he tries to expand if you miss the first one. Personally, any time I see a Roach wall, I immediately go into mass Ling contain mode and work towards +1 Carapace -> +1 Melee, or even straight +1 Melee if I didn't spot an Evolution Chamber. Both will most likely not finish fast enough from the first scout to the push, but if you can even slow down the push at the beginning, it's going to lose a lot of steam methinks. So, what you mentioned was the start of competent drone micro, followed by the player going AFK in his base. Drones are great at clogging up attack lanes. If you run them through your Queen/spine, and then run them again through your roaches, those speedlings are going to get completely raped by the roaches because they come out at the same time. There's no timing you can do where you can hit that window to exploit. You have maybe 10 seconds to attack him with speed from a perfectly timed 10 or 11 pool opener, and that's only if he maintains a completely rigid build (i.e., doesn't drop a slightly earlier warren when he sees what you're about to do). Those 10 seconds aren't enough when you have a spine and queen to worry about, and the drones to clog the lanes. The soft tactical counter to drone lane-clogging is surround + hold position, but it's only marginally more efficient than just manually targeting the drones with some of your lings and requires much more work on the attacker's end. I do think that the 10-11 pool speedling all-ins will beat this build executed by players of equal skill level probably up to around mid-high diamond though because the speedling builds are far easier to time perfectly, while this build has many steps and is thus more prone to error and delays. Any delay in your pool or warren or queen or gas will increase the size of that timing window substantially. Having perhaps 20 seconds instead of 10 would mean the death of the defender. As it stands though, that video showed a sloppy execution of this build and still the timing window was only around 10 seconds, which simply isn't enough time for speedlings to overwhelm. If there wasn't a spine, it would be no problem, but because that spine is there, plus the queen, and roaches only 10 seconds out... I just feel that it's very safe. | ||
|
salazar001
United States38 Posts
On May 18 2011 13:41 PR4Y wrote: Artosis was commenting on how powerful it can be in certain situations in ZvP... That situation being, toss going 3gate sentry expo. The roaches are meat shields and sentry snipers, while the lings get up close and personal and prevent the protoss from being comfy for too long and allowing them to amass a deathball. So to answer your question, yes, it CAN work in ZvP... but I wouldn't advise this, as its so easy to scout and the expo is SO late that any Protoss with half a brain would know to stay 1base as the zerg is obviously going to be putting on some serious pressure... (1base zerg past 21 supply in ZvP = semi-allin) You obviously have no clue what you're talking about, as the expo is placed at standard time and its not easy to scout the zerg base until hallucination. Also, the zergling-roach all in arrives at the time the expo finishes so its kind of impossible to stay up at 1 base when you already have 2. Know what you're talking about before posting. | ||
|
watwat
48 Posts
zvz obv | ||
|
michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + game 1 of july / darkforce and july executed something very similar to this build, and absolutely crushed df | ||
|
Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On May 20 2011 12:13 michaelhasanalias wrote: Reply to the spoiler: + Show Spoiler +spoiler from NASL: + Show Spoiler + game 1 of july / darkforce and july executed something very similar to this build, and absolutely crushed df Main difference was that july went hatch before pool but the idea seemed to be the same, make 12ish roaches, spam speedlings behind it and go attack. I reckon the original posts "unbeatableness" have more to do with not losing to any kind of cheese or early aggression owing to the 13pool. It would be interesting to see how pool first builds stack up to july's build when considering the fact that hatch first has to play way more defensive in the immediate early game so as to not lose to bling/ling all-ins and other such early aggression. | ||
| ||
