EPTwhen ling speed i 85% done, move out with roaches only , and then the lings behind when speed fnishes. you should time it to where the roaches arrive the same time the lings do with no wait around time, giving your opponent the smallest possible time to react; it's easily stopped if you know its coming.
[D] Zerg equivalent to a 4-Gate - Page 7
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
when ling speed i 85% done, move out with roaches only , and then the lings behind when speed fnishes. you should time it to where the roaches arrive the same time the lings do with no wait around time, giving your opponent the smallest possible time to react; it's easily stopped if you know its coming. | ||
|
azn_dude1
162 Posts
| ||
|
2heartless
United States66 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
|
MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
"PLAYER X" DOES A ROACH/SPEEDLING ATTACK DOES NOT = "PLAYER X IS DOING THIS BUILD" Let's make a comparison to PvZ really quickly. Protoss A goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, cancels his Nexus and attacks. Protoss B goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, DOES NOT CANCEL, and still attacks. Are both players doing the same build? Absolutely and unequivocally not. Obviously the builds are different. One player expanded, and the other player did not. IF THE NEXUS CANCELLING PLAYER EXPANDS LATER, IS HE NOW DOING THE SAME THING!? The answer is still no. They are very different builds, and have MASSIVE economic differences. In ZvZ, if Player A goes 15 hatch into roach speedling, and Player B goes roach speedling after expanding around 30 supply, the economies of the two players will be massively different. For the love of all that is good in this world, please stop fucking saying that "JULY DID THIS SAME BUILD BUT HE WENT HATCH FIRST!!!!" If July went hatch first, his build shares ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with this one. And for what it's worth, the entire reason that July went hatch first is because its about 50,000x stronger to go roaches off of 2 bases than it is off of one. >.< | ||
|
OwlHarris
United States53 Posts
| ||
|
MadVillain
United States402 Posts
I think for the defending Zerg, they can either do the same build or go for roach ling with defensive crawlers. Seem reasonable? and it holds up in practice | ||
|
jonathan1
United States395 Posts
| ||
|
VectorCereal
Canada54 Posts
14 gas 14 pool 18~ roach warren 21 expand 11 drones on each mineral line, 3 drones on 1 gas, 2 queens then it was just constantly inject and make as many units as possible, using speedlings to deny scouting. Attack whenever you feel you have a sizable force (aka you should scout). | ||
|
Djinx
18 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
|
FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
On May 18 2011 13:33 mrfatbush wrote: Definitely will try this in zvz. Question though, does this strategy work against protoss? I heard artosis saying during gsl that a roach ling all in against a protoss can be very powerful, especially if the protoss is greedy in expanding and assumes the zerg is powering drones. I have seen Destiny pull this off against a Protoss before. The Toss looked like he was 4 gateing but instead did a 3 gate expand with stalkers instead of sentries. Also, for Destinys all in he also takes 1 queen with him accross the map and attacks when it reaches the enemy base, this queen gathers energy on the trip and the transfuses roaches and provides some anti air | ||
|
Humfluxx
Sweden47 Posts
 | ||
|
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
| ||
|
Allscorpion
United Kingdom319 Posts
On May 18 2011 13:06 Stam wrote: In a recent video [below], Destiny outlined a ZvZ build he called "unstoppable" and "wins every single ZvZ up to grandmasters". The build seems to be as follows (thanks to ItsBricksOutHere): * 13 pool * 15.5 (drone building) gas * 16 Overlord * Pool 100% - 1 spine + Queen * Queen 3/4% Roach Warren * 20 Overlord * Roach Warren 100% Roaches with all larvae (~6) * ~32 Overlord * ~34 Expand * 36 Metabolic Boost (Remove Drones from gas at this point) * 36 Roaches (~7) * 44 Overlord (or 2) * 46 Queen (or sooner if able) * ~50 Mass Lings behind Roaches * At this point there should be about 13 Roaches and several lings. 'A move' all units to enemy base, keeping the lings behind the roaches in case of banelings. Throughout the engagement, continue to produce lings and rally them to the opponents base. Destiny seems to think the only way to survive against this build is to do the same build. I haven't actually seen this build on ladder too much but it seems quite strong the few times I've executed it. Is this a common build in the higher leagues and what do people do when they suspect someone is doing this build? VOD of lesson: I think I have a replay of me beating it, although i'm not too sure. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=210040 | ||
|
michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On May 20 2011 14:59 MrBitter wrote: I really want to reiterate just how annoying and absolutely incorrect some of the statements being made in this thread are. "PLAYER X" DOES A ROACH/SPEEDLING ATTACK DOES NOT = "PLAYER X IS DOING THIS BUILD" Let's make a comparison to PvZ really quickly. Protoss A goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, cancels his Nexus and attacks. Protoss B goes 3 warpgate expand, adds a 4th gateway, DOES NOT CANCEL, and still attacks. Are both players doing the same build? Absolutely and unequivocally not. Obviously the builds are different. One player expanded, and the other player did not. IF THE NEXUS CANCELLING PLAYER EXPANDS LATER, IS HE NOW DOING THE SAME THING!? The answer is still no. They are very different builds, and have MASSIVE economic differences. In ZvZ, if Player A goes 15 hatch into roach speedling, and Player B goes roach speedling after expanding around 30 supply, the economies of the two players will be massively different. For the love of all that is good in this world, please stop fucking saying that "JULY DID THIS SAME BUILD BUT HE WENT HATCH FIRST!!!!" If July went hatch first, his build shares ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with this one. And for what it's worth, the entire reason that July went hatch first is because its about 50,000x stronger to go roaches off of 2 bases than it is off of one. >.< Your vids are really good, but this is totally uncalled for and is just a bunch of whining. You have to be referring to my post, since there are only two posts in this entire thread talking about that game, one of them being mine. I was making some toast during the opening moments of the game and must have missed the hatch first, but both the attack, roach/drone/ling count and timing looked very similar. They are different means to get there, but it's not a far stretch to say that they are the same builds. Get off your high horse and go watch the game. Their economies are likely to be different but aren't necessarily going to be different. It depends when and where you cut, and his build hit with the pretty much the same force at the same time as the one described in the OP. It's great that 15hatch opening is not the same as a 13 pool. Thanks for that high level commentary. The map he did that on is large enough to allow for a safe 15hatch, and so he took some creative license with the general theme of the build. Also your analogy is absolutely wrong and off-base, as your protoss analog changes the outcome, whereas July simply changed the means to get there. edit: If you have something more constructive to add beyond "guys, 15 hatch is different from 13 pool", I'd be glad to hear it though. All the lessons you buy from those high level players must give you some better perspective on a strategy that seems to be dominating zvz lately. | ||
|
rbkl
772 Posts
| ||
|
MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On May 20 2011 22:06 michaelhasanalias wrote: Your vids are really good, but this is totally uncalled for and is just a bunch of whining. You have to be referring to my post, since there are only two posts in this entire thread talking about that game, one of them being mine. I was making some toast during the opening moments of the game and must have missed the hatch first, but both the attack, roach/drone/ling count and timing looked very similar. They are different means to get there, but it's not a far stretch to say that they are the same builds. Get off your high horse and go watch the game. Their economies are likely to be different but aren't necessarily going to be different. It depends when and where you cut, and his build hit with the pretty much the same force at the same time as the one described in the OP. It's great that 15hatch opening is not the same as a 13 pool. Thanks for that high level commentary. The map he did that on is large enough to allow for a safe 15hatch, and so he took some creative license with the general theme of the build. Also your analogy is absolutely wrong and off-base, as your protoss analog changes the outcome, whereas July simply changed the means to get there. edit: If you have something more constructive to add beyond "guys, 15 hatch is different from 13 pool", I'd be glad to hear it though. All the lessons you buy from those high level players must give you some better perspective on a strategy that seems to be dominating zvz lately. I'm not on a high horse. Its not dominating ZvZ. I'm trying to give constructive advice, but nobody wants to listen.......... Strategy forum these days is so /facepalm. And its an incredibly far stretch to say the builds are anything close to being the same. Terran FE into 4 rax is not the same as Terran 4 rax all-in. | ||
|
FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Anyway i like my fast mutas in zvz not many but enough to kill the queens and force some anti air or too early infestors. As long as i can hold my ramp ground is unimportant anyway. and without queens 2 hatch < 1 hatch with queen. And because of the new trend of overlord spreading your opponent will be supply blocked for ages. free win achieved ^^. (i know it abuses the current zvz style to be effectiv but thats life  )To that build zerg wallin with spines will be really effectiv against this (not enough roaches to deal with the buildings). Of course if naturals are wide open its hard to fend that off (unless you hatch in main and build some extra drones for the same production and tech fast), but the other zerg will have the same problem of being unable to defend their natural. Other then that i would say go for roaches and keep the banelings in the back. Lings are unable to attack the roaches and you can snipe of his roaches, it will be easy to get atleast 4 lings with one baneling in such a fight to gain advantages slowly. Well if you expect mass roaches in a zvz early game i guess its really a hard to stop build. But it would be interesting to see how 7 roaches with lings engange a wall of 9 roaches with some banelings able to run past the own roaches and of course with more lings coming up. PS: spine + burrowed baneling = super evil mass ling trap ! xD (only if both have managed to reach t2 though out of ling baneling wars. and are slowly switching over to roach infestor) | ||
|
AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
| ||
|
Lingy
England201 Posts
| ||
|
EvilZergling
United States194 Posts
It's far from unstoppable and actually laughable against the 9pool build.
* 10 - Overlord * 10 - 6 Zerglings (3pairs) * 13 - Queen (1) --> Inject * Drone to 17 * 17 - Overlord * @Queen (1) complete, Queen #2 + Extractor (1) * @Queen #2 complete, Queen #3 + Creep Tumor * Move both queens to block ramp from counters/all-ins * Drone to 24 * 24 - 3 drones in gas + Roach Warren * @Roach warren complete, 5 Roaches * @Roaches complete, expand and use roaches to defend natural while first 2 queens continue to block ramp, possibly add a spine. Evo Chamber (1) * @100 gas, Lair * @100 gas, +1 attack * @100 gas, Roach Speed * @+1 attk 25% completed, cut drones, mass roaches * @Upgrades near complete, go attack. *Note: from here you pretty much gauge your next move. If you feel you can win then continue to reinforce with units otherwise drone up and drop an infestation pit and possibly 2 more spines. Used this build in practice games against this said destiny build and smashed it with 100% success rate. | ||
| ||
