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On May 19 2011 02:06 redwingxviii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 02:00 dan1mal wrote:
every single timing push in the game has a counter, every single timing push in the game can be scouted, therefore every single build in the game can be ignored because they can be countered by "scouting and reacting" ?
no, not really
you might agree with your dissenters more than you think - at least from my point of view, i think some people are saying "it's not unbeatable" - which would be in agreement with you. Whether it's really strong or not is probably secondary to the point above
I agree its not unbeatable, but half the people here seem to think im trying to defend this build. When in reality, as stated atleast twice before, im just saying people are giving retarded arguments as to why its bad
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On May 19 2011 02:09 dan1mal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 02:06 redwingxviii wrote:On May 19 2011 02:00 dan1mal wrote:
every single timing push in the game has a counter, every single timing push in the game can be scouted, therefore every single build in the game can be ignored because they can be countered by "scouting and reacting" ?
no, not really
you might agree with your dissenters more than you think - at least from my point of view, i think some people are saying "it's not unbeatable" - which would be in agreement with you. Whether it's really strong or not is probably secondary to the point above I agree its not unbeatable, but half the people here seem to think im trying to defend this build. When in reality, as stated atleast twice before, im just saying people are giving retarded arguments as to why its bad
Please stop referring to the reasonable arguments of those with whom you disagree as "retarded."
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On May 19 2011 02:16 Shahrazad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 02:09 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 02:06 redwingxviii wrote:On May 19 2011 02:00 dan1mal wrote:
every single timing push in the game has a counter, every single timing push in the game can be scouted, therefore every single build in the game can be ignored because they can be countered by "scouting and reacting" ?
no, not really
you might agree with your dissenters more than you think - at least from my point of view, i think some people are saying "it's not unbeatable" - which would be in agreement with you. Whether it's really strong or not is probably secondary to the point above I agree its not unbeatable, but half the people here seem to think im trying to defend this build. When in reality, as stated atleast twice before, im just saying people are giving retarded arguments as to why its bad Please stop referring to the reasonable arguments of those with whom you disagree as "retarded."
the argument: the counter to this build counters it. Is retarded in my book
User was warned for this post
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On May 19 2011 02:17 dan1mal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 02:16 Shahrazad wrote:On May 19 2011 02:09 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 02:06 redwingxviii wrote:On May 19 2011 02:00 dan1mal wrote:
every single timing push in the game has a counter, every single timing push in the game can be scouted, therefore every single build in the game can be ignored because they can be countered by "scouting and reacting" ?
no, not really
you might agree with your dissenters more than you think - at least from my point of view, i think some people are saying "it's not unbeatable" - which would be in agreement with you. Whether it's really strong or not is probably secondary to the point above I agree its not unbeatable, but half the people here seem to think im trying to defend this build. When in reality, as stated atleast twice before, im just saying people are giving retarded arguments as to why its bad Please stop referring to the reasonable arguments of those with whom you disagree as "retarded." the argument: the counter to this build counters it. Is retarded in my book
Who made that statement?
... This thread is devolving quickly into desperate arguments and silly flames.
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On May 19 2011 02:17 dan1mal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 02:16 Shahrazad wrote:On May 19 2011 02:09 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 02:06 redwingxviii wrote:On May 19 2011 02:00 dan1mal wrote:
every single timing push in the game has a counter, every single timing push in the game can be scouted, therefore every single build in the game can be ignored because they can be countered by "scouting and reacting" ?
no, not really
you might agree with your dissenters more than you think - at least from my point of view, i think some people are saying "it's not unbeatable" - which would be in agreement with you. Whether it's really strong or not is probably secondary to the point above I agree its not unbeatable, but half the people here seem to think im trying to defend this build. When in reality, as stated atleast twice before, im just saying people are giving retarded arguments as to why its bad Please stop referring to the reasonable arguments of those with whom you disagree as "retarded." the argument: the counter to this build counters it. Is retarded in my book
This is the nature of TL strategy/build discussion. It is not "retarded" in any book that's been critically proof-read.
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On May 19 2011 02:22 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 02:17 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 02:16 Shahrazad wrote:On May 19 2011 02:09 dan1mal wrote:On May 19 2011 02:06 redwingxviii wrote:On May 19 2011 02:00 dan1mal wrote:
every single timing push in the game has a counter, every single timing push in the game can be scouted, therefore every single build in the game can be ignored because they can be countered by "scouting and reacting" ?
no, not really
you might agree with your dissenters more than you think - at least from my point of view, i think some people are saying "it's not unbeatable" - which would be in agreement with you. Whether it's really strong or not is probably secondary to the point above I agree its not unbeatable, but half the people here seem to think im trying to defend this build. When in reality, as stated atleast twice before, im just saying people are giving retarded arguments as to why its bad Please stop referring to the reasonable arguments of those with whom you disagree as "retarded." the argument: the counter to this build counters it. Is retarded in my book Who made that statement? ... This thread is devolving quickly into desperate arguments and silly flames.
everyone who said: scout, react, counter did
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Destiny's student is obviously of a lower level. As far as low level players are concerned, this build does a lot of things right: safe against cheese, and also gets a lot of free wins(and takes no skill btw). In that sense, it is a Zerg equivalent of 4gate.
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A very prominent player just won a pretty big tournament with Roach/Ling all-in every single game. It was lol-worthy.
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On May 18 2011 14:16 MrBitter wrote:
Destiny's trolling you guys.
1 base roach will lose to 2 base roach every time....
this is 2 base roach..
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15hatch (doesn't matter pool or gas timing afterwards) mass ling will wreck this assuming you catch the army in transit, which you should be able to do seeing that roaches are slow and your speed will finish before theirs. Depending on map, it might be hard to scout if you skip drone scout and do ling scout (as 3 roaches MIGHT be out to block ramp by time you get there) but I definitely see this working vs lower level players that aren't able to read their opponent well but it is by no means unstoppable.
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On May 19 2011 03:28 Ruyguy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 14:16 MrBitter wrote:
Destiny's trolling you guys.
1 base roach will lose to 2 base roach every time.... this is 2 base roach..
maybe you havent read the whole threadç but most of the production is from 1 base and he gets 22 drones. and it is said that this is the max drone count. so this is basicly 1 base play with late additional hatch. normally if the opponent goes 2 base roach this is easily win. u'd better know what you say.
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On May 19 2011 03:14 TimeSpiral wrote:
A very prominent player just won a pretty big tournament with Roach/Ling all-in every single game. It was lol-worthy.
Who?
+ Show Spoiler +and if you're referring to Nestea in GSL finals then that's just silly...
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On May 19 2011 02:08 tdynasty wrote:This build can work in Diamond and Masters. I actually lost 2 games recently to Roach ling all Ins. One of them was on Shakuras with a Nydus Worm. I killed the worm but 5 roaches came out followed by a second nydus. The main reason why this works, If me (protoss) Is playing extra greedy and still building infrastructure/upgrades around 50 food. I had maybe 3 sentries covering my front and 2 stalkers backing them up. I pulled probes and stalkers to hit the Nydus. But failed miserably. The second map this build works on I think is Scrap station. Where the protoss can often early expand. The part where this build becomes good. Is you will scout initially, and see a zerg expansion with lings going. So you say, standard zerg macro. WIth that being said the all in is now no longer detectable. Because on the Roach warren is out, the zerg starts massing units while you are probe building and laying down buildings. I think this is a very strong build against protoss who go for anything under a 30 food nexus. Otherwise it can be countered by good FFs and good reinforcements. In ZvZ. Whatever I can't comment!  However this specific build order could use tweaking versus protoss. I don't see why get a 36 Queen... I just like the Concept of massing units early off 2 hatches for ling/roach Hatch tech pressure.
PLEASE don't just post before having a clue about what you are saying....
1. This build IS VERY EASILY scoutable! If you see a zerg not expanding until 34-35 supply and roaches on the ramp and say to yourself "Standard, Macro Zerg... Make Probes now", you are doing it entirely wrong and you need to work on your scout practices.
2. How is the all-in "no longer detectable" because the zerg is building nothing but roaches and lings? You pretty much completely contradicted your own statement there, pal... As protoss, you don't just sit back and build probes and production when you have CLEARLY scouted the zerg making nothing but army... This statement was just totally wrong, in every way.
3. You say this build is strong against any protoss who go for (lessthan) 30 Nexus... This build can be stopped by anything a protoss wants as long as you are reacting to what you see. Roach/Ling all-in's are VERY strong against protoss, but THIS BUILD in particular is just extremely sub-optimal, and SO easily scoutable. The reason PROPER roach/ling all-ins are so powerful is they are HARD to scout until the last minute... This build on the other hand, is a completely blind build that is so easily scoutable it's not even funny.
Once again, I have to agree with MrBitter... This thread has quickly degraded to flame-wars and nonsensical comments that are completely unfounded and irrelevant.
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On May 19 2011 04:27 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 03:14 TimeSpiral wrote:
A very prominent player just won a pretty big tournament with Roach/Ling all-in every single game. It was lol-worthy. Who? + Show Spoiler +and if you're referring to Nestea in GSL finals then that's just silly...
Wouldn't that technically count as a timing attack?
On topic:
How about we all take a step back and do this the right way: replays. There can always be the "your opponent sucked!" argument but that is still far better than sitting here and theorycrafting and flaming each other.
EDIT: Me just being an ass...
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Been doing this build for 100% of my ZvZ's the past few days and have lost once with it. The time I lost I got super-supply blocked (forgot to build next ovy + let my scout ovy get sniped almost simultaneously)
It seems pretty strong.
edit: i'm ~600 plat
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Pretty sure any decent T or P will notice how late your expo is and know something's up... but in ZvZ maybe this is good, I don't know.
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This build doesn't seem that bad. If anything you should be able to kill drones with some speedlings and bring it back to an even game if the other play does go 2 base roach. So what it does is make yourself safe vs early cheese. Anyone saying mass speedling beats this doesn't know what a baneling nest is. You guys make it seem like someone can't deviate from the build if they need to.
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On May 18 2011 15:13 PR4Y wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 14:58 Antego wrote:
I don't think trolling the people that gives him money is a good plan; I don't think he is trolling at all. Anyway, if the troll is not intentionnal, it's just not troll; there is no such thing as unintentional bullshit. Nothing you just said makes any sense, whatsoever... Of course you can troll unintentionally. Example: George Bush saying "Thanks to OB/GYN for spreading... their love, for women..." was an unintentional troll. He didn't realize he was doing it, but after it happened it became apparent that what he had just said might have been the stupidest thing to ever leave a United States President's mouth. Unintentional trolls happen all the time, in many shapes and sizes... you may just be too blind to see them going on around you, but that does not mean they don't happen. Also, when a progamer says that this is garbage and troll-worthy, listen to those words. Destiny teaching one of his students that X build is "unbeatable, gamebreaking, and unstoppable", is just hype. That's all this build is... Hype. Like I stated to begin with, Destiny does a GREAT job of hyping himself and the product he sells (coaching lessons), and he does it in a unique manor. He has had great success with his stream, but that by no means makes him any less human then you or I... He might not of known he was trolling, but because of his loyal followers that take everything he says as fact, situations like this thread occur. This build just doesn't hold water. It might be a fun build to try against some lowbies, but it just wont work in higher leagues. That is why it is a troll. Destiny said it was game-breaking to his student to hype his product, and as a result, one of his followers took that statement seriously and made this thread THUS CREATING AN UNINTENTIONAL TROLL. Thanks
I agree with the hype and all, but I'm sorry unintentionnal bulshit doesn't make sense by its core concept : You can send false information without intending to, that would be a mistake generated by ignorance, but you can never bullshit someone without knowing it because bullshit is the action of intentionally sending false information to someone in order to make him react in some fashion; there would be a contradiction.
For more (because I don't want to derivate too much from the central point of this discusion) go check : http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html
("In fact, bullshit need not be untrue at all.")
On May 18 2011 15:02 MrBitter wrote:
He's doing it with good intentions...
He's taking low level players and showing them a solid 1 base build that doesn't revolve around solid mechanics or good micro...
Its a free pass from bronze to gold, and by saying "zomg its unbeatable", he's selling it very well......
So saying he's trolling might be an oversimplifcation...
But Destiny does not think its an unstoppable build. He's very aware of the build's shortcomings, and of the fact that those shortcomings are irrelevant in the lower leagues.
edit: To be clear, I'm not trying to dump on Destiny. He's a far better player than me, but this build isn't anything like some bandwagoners are trying to believe...
Yes, I agree with everything you said.
Edit : Just saw his game vs dSelect; it was awesome
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Idk, I think I played a game recently against a guy who was doing something like this, but he waited for carapace. Anyways, i did a 13 hatch 15 pool gas at 40 spanishiwa, and went lair and rw with upgrades and then roached like crazy, and when he reached my base, I had more roaches and he accused me of hacking, lol. But the thing is, I was on more patches, thus making more income, and i had 2 queens with 2 hatches sooner. Idk though, perhaps had he left his base with his roaches when destiny suggests, it may work. Although, I also hear word on the street is anyone who pushes with slow roaches is vulnerable to a speedling backstab, as the slow roaches take forever to get back and defend, though he did wait to push until he also had speedlings on the field... Idk, seems strong, though I have a feeling, like the 4 gate, it can be held if scouted, and maybe going bling&roach may work at holding it off, with a few spines and maybe moving queens down as you see them pushing out.
Worth a try, but it's gotta be spot on, with good micro. We'll see what happens, but if it's truly unstoppable, I have a feeling it will be patched, though i refuse to believe anything is unstoppable... Time will tell
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Come on guys please use your brains here. Firstly the reason that he opens with a quick 6 roaches is to stop 1base baneling play, which it does effectively, this is obviously not an optimal way to perform the exact same attack; and no, 1 base bling does not beat 6 roaches, you can make two seperate wall of zergling tight roaches that would no take splash from the same banelings. The reason he is saying that is the equivalent to 4gate is because he is saying that the only way to beat it is using the same build (not true in either case, but that seemed to be the case with pvp for a while) the strength of this build is the lings, and the fact that you're supposed to hide them with this sort of attack, catching players for being too greedy. I've seen Idra Nestea and Sheth use this type of attack quite often, and if you watch the GSL regularly you'll hear artosis talk about Nestea doing this quite a bit in his ZvZ 22-25 drones, 8-10 roaches, and a ton of hidden lings behind it.
Lastly this is close to the roach ling aggression we've been seeinng in the ZvP matchup lately, but obviously without the first 6 roaches, as that would be awful. There are obviously differences between the two, but the gist is about the same.
Oh and also to the people saying this wouldn't work above gold, please get a clue...
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EPT
