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On May 18 2011 16:21 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 16:15 IzieBoy wrote:On May 18 2011 15:31 Morfildur wrote:
Looks like destiny is the reason why my ZvZs got _even more_ annoying. I think the last 2 zerg i played against did this build, the number of roaches and lings fits, though probably the timing was slower and the micro worse because it was just diamond.
I always open spanishiwa style 16h, 15p, no gas, 4 queens, lots of spinecrawlers.
The first game it killed me because i was at ~60 drones to his ~35-40, the second time i held it with 4-5 spine crawlers, 4 queens, lots of slowlings, slowling reinforcements and some transfuses because i scouted in time that he wasn't droning at his expo, so i built lings instead of drones.
The build seems to be really strong, especially since the expo makes it look like you are going for a macro game while you are instead doing a very strong attack (wouldn't call it all-in, as you have the expo and an ok-ish amount of drones), so the opponent has to scout very well to check if you are really droning on your expo. It is imho still not impossible to defend while staying economically ahead.
I think that makes it quite a strong build and the comparision to 4gate seems quite ok, as 4gate usually also relies on the opponent not scouting the 4th gate. It's probably even closer to MCs cancel-4gate build due to the expo.
May I ask why you need to have 60 drones on 2 bases? Were you getting ready to double expand? .... *proceeds to have a heart attack* Not really unreasonable,, means the main is perfectly saturated, nat is slightly oversaturated, not by much, and yes, you can easily expand to another 3rd. Also, since you lose drones everytime you make a building...
Yes, iirc i had just broken down the rocks to the third on Xel'Naga and was about to take the third when the attack hit... but anyways, my biggest problem is also that i tend to overdrone, which is nice in the midgame because i usually am far ahead in that stage, but it often kills me in the early game (as was the case in the first game against this build that i mentioned).
Still, drones can be used to morph into spinecrawlers, evo chambers to block the ramp, extractors or to maynard to the third... and if the opponent kills a few, it doesn't hurt as much :p
Against this almost-fake expand roach/ling aggression it's still a mistake to drone as much as i do :p
On May 18 2011 16:33 Geo.Rion wrote:
Oh c'mon, fast expand, and do the same as he does (roach-ling), but you have 1 more hatch worth of larvae and defenders reinforce quiker anyways. Just dont overdrone, and there s no way you d lose to this
Uhm... the build in the OP uses a second hatch at the expo... so unless you mean "get a fast third", your post doesn't make sense.
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On May 18 2011 16:27 Xapti wrote:
This build gets likely beaten or almost certainly beaten by:
• burrow roaches
• mass speedling (with expand of course) — as long as there's no banes
• massed +1 attack roaches (can expand at same time but will have superior army composition)
As a person who's beaten players better than destiny in ZvZ (top 100), I am quite comfortable saying I would win vs this strategy.
In fact, as far as I know, destiny isn't even that good at ZvZ, or at least isn't known to have above-average ZvZ.
Cool sneak bragging, but destiny specifically says "up to grandmaster". Not "will always win against top 100 ZvZs".
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what do you do when they get like 20 lings and start poking your natural? because the roaches you have to leave at your ramp and they can just run the lings back and forth poking your natural hatch while its building so you end up having to cancel it and they already have their natural up. If you send a few roaches and try to fend them off then they surround your roaches and kill them. If you send them all then they have chance to run up ramp. I'm probably missing something here if everyone think its that good of a build
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On May 18 2011 16:44 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 16:21 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 18 2011 16:15 IzieBoy wrote:On May 18 2011 15:31 Morfildur wrote:
Looks like destiny is the reason why my ZvZs got _even more_ annoying. I think the last 2 zerg i played against did this build, the number of roaches and lings fits, though probably the timing was slower and the micro worse because it was just diamond.
I always open spanishiwa style 16h, 15p, no gas, 4 queens, lots of spinecrawlers.
The first game it killed me because i was at ~60 drones to his ~35-40, the second time i held it with 4-5 spine crawlers, 4 queens, lots of slowlings, slowling reinforcements and some transfuses because i scouted in time that he wasn't droning at his expo, so i built lings instead of drones.
The build seems to be really strong, especially since the expo makes it look like you are going for a macro game while you are instead doing a very strong attack (wouldn't call it all-in, as you have the expo and an ok-ish amount of drones), so the opponent has to scout very well to check if you are really droning on your expo. It is imho still not impossible to defend while staying economically ahead.
I think that makes it quite a strong build and the comparision to 4gate seems quite ok, as 4gate usually also relies on the opponent not scouting the 4th gate. It's probably even closer to MCs cancel-4gate build due to the expo.
May I ask why you need to have 60 drones on 2 bases? Were you getting ready to double expand? .... *proceeds to have a heart attack* Not really unreasonable,, means the main is perfectly saturated, nat is slightly oversaturated, not by much, and yes, you can easily expand to another 3rd. Also, since you lose drones everytime you make a building... Yes, iirc i had just broken down the rocks to the third on Xel'Naga and was about to take the third when the attack hit... but anyways, my biggest problem is also that i tend to overdrone, which is nice in the midgame because i usually am far ahead in that stage, but it often kills me in the early game (as was the case in the first game against this build that i mentioned). Still, drones can be used to morph into spinecrawlers, evo chambers to block the ramp, extractors or to maynard to the third... and if the opponent kills a few, it doesn't hurt as much :p Against this almost-fake expand roach/ling aggression it's still a mistake to drone as much as i do :p Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 16:33 Geo.Rion wrote:
Oh c'mon, fast expand, and do the same as he does (roach-ling), but you have 1 more hatch worth of larvae and defenders reinforce quiker anyways. Just dont overdrone, and there s no way you d lose to this Uhm... the build in the OP uses a second hatch at the expo... so unless you mean "get a fast third", your post doesn't make sense.
i mean hatch first, ~34 is not fast at all.
That being said i do use this build from time to time on some maps, but definetly just as a gimmick, and with less roaches, and i show the expo just before i move out with my group of roaches, so he might think it's not a very agressive build but a pressure. That s the only way it can work at higher levels imo
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There's a window where baneling can just blow up your shit
User was warned for this post
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On May 18 2011 16:52 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 16:27 Xapti wrote:
This build gets likely beaten or almost certainly beaten by:
• burrow roaches
• mass speedling (with expand of course) — as long as there's no banes
• massed +1 attack roaches (can expand at same time but will have superior army composition)
As a person who's beaten players better than destiny in ZvZ (top 100), I am quite comfortable saying I would win vs this strategy.
In fact, as far as I know, destiny isn't even that good at ZvZ, or at least isn't known to have above-average ZvZ. Cool sneak bragging, but destiny specifically says "up to grandmaster". Not "will always win against top 100 ZvZs".
Destiny is not grandmaster a far as I know and has no right to say a build can win to grandmaster. I am not a grandmaster player either, or even above destiny's level. In fact, that's important information to mention which I left out inadvertently, that helps to back up the reputability of my knowledge (which is the sole intention of the mention in the first place of course).
When I say that those builds should work, I'm meaning that they should work at levels that aren't just at the top.
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this build in my eyes is insanely good, i tryed it on an fe protoss and fe terran and crisply took them out almost instantly
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14gas/14pool into 21 expand + roach warren stops this build even in relatively close positions. With a couple of spines roaches and lings you are defended enough to tech to mutas and annihilate your opponent economy. I have faced this build in the ladder and always managed to stop it
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This build isn't even the right one. If you paid attention to the video Destiny said "this is a combo of how I open and transition into the roach ling all in." Also for all you people who are like this 4 gate equivalent doesn't work, Idra does it all the time on his stream and stomps face.
A better build is 14 gas 13 pool 21 hatch. If you scout mass lings, get a banes nest. After you get ling speed leave 1 drone on gas and drone to 26 drones. You stop getting gas once you have 250 so that's 10 roaches. Then mass lings. If you bothered to micro, banes won't do anything.
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On May 18 2011 17:05 Immolate wrote:
what do you do when they get like 20 lings and start poking your natural? because the roaches you have to leave at your ramp and they can just run the lings back and forth poking your natural hatch while its building so you end up having to cancel it and they already have their natural up. If you send a few roaches and try to fend them off then they surround your roaches and kill them. If you send them all then they have chance to run up ramp. I'm probably missing something here if everyone think its that good of a build
Even I can answer this and I'm not even diamond. If they harass your natural, put roaches at the natural. "No, they will run up your ramp to main"? No they won't, since you'll obviously park your queens there.
It might be annoying to have queens on ramp, but it completely denies that kind of harassment.
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On May 18 2011 18:26 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 16:52 Tobberoth wrote:On May 18 2011 16:27 Xapti wrote:
This build gets likely beaten or almost certainly beaten by:
• burrow roaches
• mass speedling (with expand of course) — as long as there's no banes
• massed +1 attack roaches (can expand at same time but will have superior army composition)
As a person who's beaten players better than destiny in ZvZ (top 100), I am quite comfortable saying I would win vs this strategy.
In fact, as far as I know, destiny isn't even that good at ZvZ, or at least isn't known to have above-average ZvZ. Cool sneak bragging, but destiny specifically says "up to grandmaster". Not "will always win against top 100 ZvZs". Destiny is not grandmaster a far as I know and has no right to say a build can win to grandmaster. I am not a grandmaster player either, or even above destiny's level. In fact, that's important information to mention which I left out inadvertently, that helps to back up the reputability of my knowledge (which is the sole intention of the mention in the first place of course). When I say that those builds should work, I'm meaning that they should work at levels that aren't just at the top. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/310150/1/ROOTDestiny/
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On May 18 2011 14:58 Antego wrote:
there is no such thing as unintentional bullshit.
I would disagree...
User was warned for this post
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Seems like roaches + spine crawlers with intelligent positioning would crush this easily if you 15 hatch. There's really little to no reason not to 15 hatch if you don't expect early pool or if you're not confident vs fast ling speed/baneling all in.
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This loses hard to +1 speedlings
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everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it
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On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it
The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal.
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An earlier zergling all-in completely busts this build, gg
reason, if the opponent attacks while you are investing in roach tech and has no or 6 roaches, the opponent has significantly more lings that beat this composition. Maybe good unit placement can suffice but 2nd hatchery will die.
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On May 19 2011 00:19 MoreFaSho wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal.
but its not a 1base..
if you had taken the time to read the op it clearly involves an expo. And while 34 might be late, in ZvZ games can stay on 1 base for up to 40-50 food.so a 34 food expo isnt that uncommon
On May 19 2011 00:26 archonOOid wrote:
An earlier zergling all-in completely busts this build, gg
reason, if the opponent attacks while you are investing in roach tech and has no or 6 roaches, the opponent has significantly more lings that beat this composition. Maybe good unit placement can suffice but 2nd hatchery will die.
and a baneling/ling all-in completely busts your earlier zergling all-in, gg. Your point being?
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On May 19 2011 00:28 dan1mal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 00:19 MoreFaSho wrote:On May 19 2011 00:06 dan1mal wrote:
everyones shouting random builds that stop this, and they probably true. Its obviously not unstoppable, otherwise every pro zerg in the world would do it...
eveyone else is saying that a build should work at all lvls, which is retarded to say:
if this goes unscouted then it can actually work at high levels. just like the fact that an unscouted 4gate can work at high levels, but if it is scouted 0% of pro zergs are gonna lose to it
so theres obviously flaws to the build, but every build has flaws.
U cant just name a bunch of these counters and say thats why it doesnt work at high levels, because by that logic not a single build would work at a high level, since every build has a way to beat it The difference is that it's really easy to scout a 1-base all-in in zvz. Move a ling towards his natural then ask yourself "hrrm, why is there no base here?" then build units after getting to 24 drones or so. That timing comes so late you can probably hold it with queens spines and speedlings even if that's suboptimal. but its not a 1base.. if you had taken the time to read the op it clearly involves an expo. And while 34 might be late, in ZvZ games can stay on 1 base for up to 40-50 food.so a 34 food expo isnt that uncommon
o.O The sheer volume of misinformation that's flying around in here is both damaging to the community and sad...
Eventually expanding doesn't really qualify as 2-base play.
13 pool, 15 gas, blind spine crawler into 5 roaches and an eventual expand IS a 1-base build, and its going to lose badly to any fast expanding player that does something similar.
If you do this roach-expand, and your opponent goes 15 hatch, makes 2 more drones than you, and then starts pumping the same units, you're going to lose every single time.
And its going to be EASY for your opponent to do that, because he's going to have a handful of lings in your natural, and an overlord checking out your ramp.
This is a 22 drone all-in. That's not even enough to saturate a single base.
Scout it and react correctly and you will win every single time.
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EPT
