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I apologize in advance for the likely scenario where I repeat what someone else has said; I didn't read all 7 pages.
If I didn't see colossus in production, I would rejoice as my hydra baneling army rolled through yours and your base.
In all seriousness, how would you respond to banelings?
I would seriously morph 30~ banes and roll under your army, through your expos, with an army of 25 2/2 Hydras in case I need to engage your airdeathball.
I don't think Hydras are as delicate as people say they are. 20~ Hydras (especially 2/2) are going to tear through your voids/phoenixes so fast, I don't even care if your phoenixes steal 5 of them. Carriers I don't really know how to respond to, besides just ignoring them since they move about the same as Hydras off creep. Make a round of roaches or something and run right by.
How do you deal with harass? As in, lings/mutas poking your expos/base. Probably the standard response of cannons, right?
If I give others the benefit of the doubt regarding hydras (which I should, I am by no means an expert on what hydras can/can't do), then I'll take an army comp of corrupter/ling/bling/roach with nydus or drop play. I feel this build is like Terran's mech style, really scary, if it could ever catch me.
Also, have fun getting up 4 bases for your incredibly gas-heavy composition.
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On March 19 2011 10:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 10:56 DiaBoLuS wrote:
wanna see you holding any roachpressure with this build, even with voidrays its kindof hard.
hydradrops counter it, you need charge for the zealots.
its a nice strat if your zerg-opponent gives you time to max to lots of carriers and doesnt scout it, otherwise it fails imo. He does get charge, and it just opens as a 3-gate expand into stargates. If he scouts roach pressure, he can react to it as well. I don't know why people think this is a carrier rush. -.-
na, its not a rush obv.
but that playstyle needs tons and tons of gas - but you need lots of sentrys @ that " 3gate fe " opening to be any solid vs roach baneling or MASS speedling with dronestop. if your phenix harass fails (1 spore 1 queen each base) and he drones up like a madman, you are sooo far behind.
and then going for carrier chargelot? gambleplay, even from 3 bases (dno how you will EVER secure a 3rd even with superior air).
he scouts carrier --> you lost in most of the cases.
a nice funstrat for tours vs worse players or up to low master :=)
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This is a good metagame build as most people will not expect it, and could be good on large map.
Going to be pretty difficult to deal with corruptor hydra ling because that's what they'll do if they scout it.
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On March 19 2011 10:18 CapnAmerica wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 09:35 Hierarch wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 19 2011 08:56 CapnAmerica wrote:
You guys keep saying that the hydralisks can't reach the carriers... but they're not supposed to. You get equal results fighting Carriers with Hydras if you just let them sit back and auto-target interceptors -- chasing after the ships themselves is stupid.
Anyone trying to micro their hydras INTO the enemy army is asking to die. Same as running them at banelings.
That aside, this strategy looks workable but nowhere near as good as you say. A smart player building corruptors will not simply let you harass his mineral line while his corruptors are far away... he'll just stay nearby and if you try to attack him anywhere he'll be there already, simply because his base area is smaller than the area you have to cover going around the corruptors, and phoenix aren't THAT fast.
I wouldn't even think about challenging the Protoss for air dominance if they did a build like this, past maybe killing the phoenix off with Corruptors. I'd probably just go roach/hydra and push into them and fall back before FFs become a problem. Ideally I could expand behind the pressure or position overlords for, say, nydusing their main with Zerglings or doing an actual drop when your phoenix have to fall back or you die. The phoenix can't be everywhere at once, though they are quite good wherever they happen to be.
The idea of sending DTs to bases that already have detection is also quite flawed -- a smart Zerg will send enough lings to the base while running his queen/drones away from your DTs, which would probably result in rather lackluster ground harassment. The phoenix will stay useful for a bit, though.
The only REAL problem I see with this build is that it relies completely on your opponent mucking up to get ahead. If they play very cautiously and don't lose much to your harass (which is 100% possible) you will outright lose when they get enough units. Same thing goes for early aggression leading into bigger attacks that just force you out of this build before you get any mileage out of the Stargates. Any time I see a Protoss player make a Void Ray I giggle with delight, because I can do heavy damage to him unless he turtles, hard, with lings. If the zerg is turtling than I am free to expand, which is a "win" in my eyes, and it also gives me even more map dominance. Corrupters have a movement speed of 2.95 while phoenix have a movement speed of 4.25, that's quite a bit faster, while I can go pick up drones and kill them quickly, even if your corrupters get a volley off they don't get bonus damage and the phoenix run away. I do feel that nydus and drop play could be strong against this, but phoenix really are just that fast where they can be from one place to another, to go from offense to defense just like that. I don't understand why a zerg would be making lings against a zealot heavy ground army with a heavy air composition? If I see zerglings I'll just push, and theres not much a zergling army can do, I also heavily canon my 3rd and 4th bases with 5-6 canons. The DT's are mostly for patroling possible expos from the zerg, they can just win the game by killing enough drones. I only make 4-6 per game to harass, but the access to DT's also gives me access to Archons. The phoenix come fast enough and in a good amount where they are guaranteed to do some damage, they are too fast and kill drones too fast for them not to do enough damage, even if they force 2-3 spores at each base that's economic damage, while i can shift into voidray production and take a 3rd base. Also this build is a turtle type build like the colossus build, but it allows phoenix to give you something to do while turtling. Just my thoughts, but you bring up some valid points. Point by point: So the Phoenix are about 50% faster when accelerated than Corruptors -- it still doesn't negate the fact that the Corruptors have to travel a MUCH shorter distance to cover mineral lines, which they should be doing. If the Zerg is turtling, they should still be expanding and making harassment units if possible (Zerglings). You don't make Zerglings to directly combat his army, you do it to harass. Zerglings are faster than Phoenix and can wreak havoc on a base or mineral line even if you simcity fairly well if Nydus Worms are used. Cannons take time to warp-in, a pro-active Zerg will be hitting before those cannons are morphed in while still focusing on building up an attack force -- with proper control it eventually reaches a point where you have to move out with some of your army and you will probably lose it with your weaker ground army if the Zerg pushes at all. DTs are fantastic, but with detection already out a Zerg who is on the ball will be saving those units from dying in the first place (because the red dots are kind of obvious on the minimap) and killing the DTs before they do much damage to your buildings. Phoenix harass doesn't come until after the expansion is up, so standard Roach/Hydra play would already have Hydra tech available to deal with early Phoenix harass (before the 3rd round or so of Phoenix popped) and if you hit later there could already be a timing push on your base with Roach/Hydra before your harass did much damage. Hiding the Phoenix and surprising your opponent is the only way to guarantee damage in that situation. Also, the spores aren't useless because you plan to make DTs later. :< This build will definitely punish unprepared Zergs HARD, but if they scout it a lot of its value is lost.
Point by point response:
If both players are turtling, and macroing well, the protoss players army will eventually just be stronger than the zergs, since zerg T3 cannot hit air units, it lets protoss just feel comfortable, and in the mid/late game even if you are denying me with corrupters it's still worth it to fly 6 phoenix in, and pick up 2-3 drones at each expo, if I lose phoenix then i just replace them with other units.
If I keep a couple sentrys and zealots to block a choke while my canons warp in I can successfully take my 3rd. It would be silly of me to just warp in canons and hope zerg isn't paying attention.
If zerg is engaging me, than that is what I want, I get them off creep, can reinforce faster and have canons. If zerg waits for me to engage I just have a better lategame army due to upgrades, and the nature of zerg and protoss units.
I usually only make 3-4 DT's for harassment purposes, i send 1 to each possible expo spot, and have them patrol where a hatchery would go, it just delays zerg expos for a while, or they catch a hatch building and force a cancel, then i go hide it in a corner. Otherwise having access to DT's gives me Archons which are amazing vs zerg.
If they are going for roach/hydra right away i can still use the phoenixes proactively and kill overlords on the map, pick up units at towers and if I see stray groups of hydras I can just pick them up and kill them, if they go for a timing push, it will be reinforced by zerglings or roaches since hydras are too slow, and i can use ff's/voidrays/gateway units/canons + bringing my phoenix back to lift some units if need be. Hydras are just too slow off creep to do enough damage imo.
DT's hold value even if they are scouted, throughout the game i can just spend 125/125 and see if the zerg is paying attention, and even without that I can pay 250/250 for a unit that does 47 damage to air and ground with a slight splash.
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im glad more toss playera are opting for the double stargate play it makes my 10 min hydra speedling rush work like magic. you say ff will hold that push off but hydras with range can still do damage over the ff and rip apart any army you have at that point. whenever i spot this type of play i do that rush and dont lose.
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On March 19 2011 10:56 DiaBoLuS wrote:
wanna see you holding any roachpressure with this build, even with voidrays its kindof hard.
hydradrops counter it, you need charge for the zealots.
its a nice strat if your zerg-opponent gives you time to max to lots of carriers and doesnt scout it, otherwise it fails imo.
I don't need to build carriers which iswhy this strategy is nice, with a colossus build you need to make colossus., 3 voidrays/ff's/canons/gateway units can hold any roach pressure and it's quite easy to see if roaches are coming since phoenix are flying around the map.
Also i get charge relatively fast, and a pure hydra drop is a lot to invest for a zerg, and i can just send gateway units + phoenix todeal with it since i can lift 6-8 of the hydras and have my gateway units close on em since they will be slow.
On March 19 2011 10:49 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 06:16 Hierarch wrote:On March 19 2011 05:46 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Oh my God, it's the stove! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173369:p All joking aside though, I have a couple questions to ask you coming from a Zerg perspective: It seems that phoenix play will prompt the Zerg to make spore crawlers, so how effective is your DT harass, as the Zerg will most likely have detection up? how would this deal with infestor/hydra play? It seems a well-placed FG can put a serious dent in your phoenix numbers if there are hydra around, same thing with the interceptors. I thought about that, as it seems counter intuitive to run DT's into spores, but sending 1-2 to a couple later expansions while engaging their main army leaves just a queen and drones to fight a DT or two and the DT will kill the queen and then just kill drones, just because it is detected doesn't mean it can't do damage. This will force spine crawlers also which just adds more static defense at the cost of 2-4 DT's, also DT's can patrol bases that haven't been taken by zerg and kill drones attempting to build there, delaying expos. Infester/Hydra seems interesting, i never thought about FG, that would definitely be a good idea vs phoenix since they are so fast and can run. I haven't seen FG vs interecepters, how does it work? Do the intercepters just sit there and not shoot? Or do they sit there and shoot? If it's the former then FG could be amazing vs this. Yeah, I think infestors would be a very good response to this, coupled with hydras. I think it would work similar to the way infestors are used in ZvZ against mutas. You use FG on the phoenix, and then kill them with your hydras that outrange them while they're rooted. I feel this would shut down a lot of your harass capabilities once infestors are up. FG can also be used in a pinch against DTs if you don't have any detection around too. I also think in the late game it would continue to be effective. FG won't kill the interceptors by itself, but it will deal quite a bit of damage, and again, hydra's will outrange the interceptors, allowing them to kill them without taking damage. This would also enable the zerg to stop the zealots and kite them. So, it's pretty micro intensive, but a Zerg could use FG to fight this effectively. I guess you could counteract this a bit by splitting you phoenix into smaller groups, and spreading your zealots, but how would you deal with heavy infestor/hydra play?
No idea lol, only experience will give us the answers to that one, I would just have to play vs it to understand how effective it would be, in theory it sounds like a solid strategy to use against this build.
On March 19 2011 10:36 Discount_Glowstix wrote:
I dont know if anyone has already said this but recently, Kiwikaki used carriers against painuser (i believe) and won on terminus. Cant find the replay but he uses carriers well and wins
That was a PvT, it was a really good game though.
On March 19 2011 10:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 14:28 Hierarch wrote:On March 18 2011 14:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Mutas are actually extremely good against Phoenix as long as there are a decent number of them. Definitely not worth dismissing that.
Good build, though. I've long thought that Carriers were incredibly underused, especially given the huge delays that Phoenix builds can cause in Zerg's ability to mass and push out. If I see mutas being made I can outproduce zerg and keep air dominance with 2 chronoboosted stargate phoenix, maybe not worth dismissing entirely, but to be fair like 90% of zergs won't bother with the investment into mutas if they see 4-5 phoenix already. Thanks for the input though, but do you think a zerg could fight for air dominance against phoenix? Even if they did get equal numbers how would zerg hold off a push of zealot/sentry/stalker/phoenix? A lot of it depends on differences in upgrades (double core + chrono boost can let Protoss get ahead on air ups). Guardian shield obviously helps a lot too. If someone was already planning a muta/ling build they might not really switch out of it even if they see phoenix, because your build doesn't exactly rush for phoenix. Worth practicing against muta/ling players, especially because many people seem to think the only answer to that is 6-gate timing attacks...
I agree, definitely worth practicing against, although I feel a gateway/phoenix push just would dominate muta/ling.
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On March 19 2011 11:32 uobradbury wrote:
im glad more toss playera are opting for the double stargate play it makes my 10 min hydra speedling rush work like magic. you say ff will hold that push off but hydras with range can still do damage over the ff and rip apart any army you have at that point. whenever i spot this type of play i do that rush and dont lose.
How many hydras do you have? I can't come up with a response until I know aroundwhat time do you attack and with how many units.
On March 19 2011 11:19 DiaBoLuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 10:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On March 19 2011 10:56 DiaBoLuS wrote:
wanna see you holding any roachpressure with this build, even with voidrays its kindof hard.
hydradrops counter it, you need charge for the zealots.
its a nice strat if your zerg-opponent gives you time to max to lots of carriers and doesnt scout it, otherwise it fails imo. He does get charge, and it just opens as a 3-gate expand into stargates. If he scouts roach pressure, he can react to it as well. I don't know why people think this is a carrier rush. -.- na, its not a rush obv. but that playstyle needs tons and tons of gas - but you need lots of sentrys @ that " 3gate fe " opening to be any solid vs roach baneling or MASS speedling with dronestop. if your phenix harass fails (1 spore 1 queen each base) and he drones up like a madman, you are sooo far behind. and then going for carrier chargelot? gambleplay, even from 3 bases (dno how you will EVER secure a 3rd even with superior air). he scouts carrier --> you lost in most of the cases. a nice funstrat for tours vs worse players or up to low master :=)
1 spore/1 queen at each base doesn't stop phoenix fly bys I can just ignore them and kill 4-5 drones and fly away and let my shields come back, 1 queen/1 spore is a good way to lose drones, and wouldn't deter me from harassing you one bit. I also don't have any problems with gas consumption since I only make 4-6 sentrys instead of 6-10 like normal 3 gate expands.
Mass speedling just can't crack a sim city defense with canons/ff's and voidrays, they will do damage but not enough to equate doing the attack, If I see pressure coming i stop making phoenix and chrono voidrays, Roaches, banelings, speedlings all have this one problem against voidrays (they can't attack up). Once I defend you're on two base at most with full saturation or 3 bases with less than full saturation and I just counter push you with voidray/gateway army and since you went roach/speedling/baneling you can't defend vs voidrays, I can also use the 2-4 phoenix i did make to lift your queens if you try to use them for defense.
If he drones like a madman and I see this I just go kill him with a 2 base timing with voidray/gateway.
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can i ask on what lvl you play?
you will be stuck on 2 base forever like that. hydradrop is still a nice counter to it, you can hardly apply any pressure, 2 base massling or blingbust seems quite strong against it - unless you open with 5 sentry as normal 3 gate fe... but rly - then youll just have carrier instead of colossus in your lategame mix - even more immobile vs constant roachdrops on each bases [im you make it to 3!] and the mix itself is not stronger then the colossi one.
dont think your strat is any solid, unscouted and even less scouted.
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On March 19 2011 10:59 carbonaceous wrote:
Yes! Anything to see carriers used properly. Wonder if we'll ever see them again in PvT like in bw. One can hope...
They're my go-to unit for PvT mech. Absolutely rapes.
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On March 19 2011 11:14 Wintertime wrote:
I apologize in advance for the likely scenario where I repeat what someone else has said; I didn't read all 7 pages.
If I didn't see colossus in production, I would rejoice as my hydra baneling army rolled through yours and your base.
In all seriousness, how would you respond to banelings?
I would seriously morph 30~ banes and roll under your army, through your expos, with an army of 25 2/2 Hydras in case I need to engage your airdeathball.
I don't think Hydras are as delicate as people say they are. 20~ Hydras (especially 2/2) are going to tear through your voids/phoenixes so fast, I don't even care if your phoenixes steal 5 of them. Carriers I don't really know how to respond to, besides just ignoring them since they move about the same as Hydras off creep. Make a round of roaches or something and run right by.
How do you deal with harass? As in, lings/mutas poking your expos/base. Probably the standard response of cannons, right?
If I give others the benefit of the doubt regarding hydras (which I should, I am by no means an expert on what hydras can/can't do), then I'll take an army comp of corrupter/ling/bling/roach with nydus or drop play. I feel this build is like Terran's mech style, really scary, if it could ever catch me.
Also, have fun getting up 4 bases for your incredibly gas-heavy composition.
I can support this build with 3 bases fine, only the upgrades, air units are gas intensive which is why I end up having so many zealots, I honestly haven't dealt with mass mass banelings to give a proper response. Hydra baneling is insanely gas and larva intensive to sustain, I would most likely respond with getting a few more sentrys for FF's and just pumping voidrays, you would probably do significant damage to my army and base but I have no doubt in my mind that a zealot/stalker/voidray army with good ff's and guardian shield would end up beating a hydra/bling army, and then it's not the easiest army to remake for you, since it is so gas and larva intensive, I can just continue to make zealots, voidrays and counter push. Your hydras used to defend will either shoot the voidrays and get killed by the zealots quite fast or they'll kill the zealots and the voidrays will win. However I'm not entirely sure on that, maybe the baneling, hydra attack would just outright kill me.
Lings get dealt with by warping in zealots/DT's and canons, mutas are almost never made against me, and if they are they will be quite late in the game in which case stalkers, canons can hold them off until i can get a good phoenix count up again, which isn't hard.
I do feel that nydus/drops could be strong, but it's not unwinnable against.
On March 19 2011 11:22 Steel wrote:
This is a good metagame build as most people will not expect it, and could be good on large map.
Going to be pretty difficult to deal with corruptor hydra ling because that's what they'll do if they scout it.
How many corrupters do you build? if you don't build enough carriers kill everything in that composition, if you build too many voidrays and gateway units can win, if you don't have enough lings then zealots tear through hydras off creep. It mainly comes down to army compositions and where you're engaging.
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On March 19 2011 11:50 DiaBoLuS wrote:
can i ask on what lvl you play?
you will be stuck on 2 base forever like that. hydradrop is still a nice counter to it, you can hardly apply any pressure, 2 base massling or blingbust seems quite strong against it - unless you open with 5 sentry as normal 3 gate fe... but rly - then youll just have carrier instead of colossus in your lategame mix - even more immobile vs constant roachdrops on each bases [im you make it to 3!] and the mix itself is not stronger then the colossi one.
dont think your strat is any solid, unscouted and even less scouted.
I don't understand the last line of what you are trying to say, but this build gives me 100% more scouting than zerg, I get to clear the map of stray overlords and pick stuff up off towers. Add observers since I'm not really using my robo for anything else and I have more map awareness and scouting potential than the zerg.
I don't understand why you think i'll be on 2 bases forever, it's really not that hard to secure a 3rd base, and since I have so many extra minerals i can just canon up hard. 3 gate expand builds are not about applying pressure, but this version allows me to harass and keep zerg on the defensive unless they want to lose drones.
I have on many occasion stated that I open with 4-6 sentrys like a normal 3 gate expand, I wouldn't be making carriers if you're roach dropping me, this isn't like a colossus build where it has to have the end game unit, I would just make void rays, drops are pretty expensive for zerg since you have to upgrade speed, drops and every time I clean up a drop you might get some pylons, or gateways but you lose all those units and your overlords, granted that I don't just see it coming in which case you do no damage.
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As far as hydra/bling goes..or any combination that includes blings, you take the DTs you were using for harass and morph them into Archons, cause they rip through blings, especially if you have some zealots to soak up some of the damage as well. Archons/Carriers are a pretty lethal combination.
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On March 19 2011 12:07 silverhand wrote:
As far as hydra/bling goes..or any combination that includes blings, you take the DTs you were using for harass and morph them into Archons, cause they rip through blings, especially if you have some zealots to soak up some of the damage as well. Archons/Carriers are a pretty lethal combination.
Ya, that's another reason to get the Dark shrine, DT's also help against zergling attacks since 2-3 DT's just own lings with canons, those harass attempts won't amount to anything. I didn't think to use archons against banelings, but that makes sense voidray/archon/zealot/stalker/the early sentrys should be able to handle a hydra/bling attack. Thanks :D
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This sounds like a variation of what Ace did at IEM. I think (going from memory here) he opened forge expand with 3~ cannons and a few sentries into stargate play (using a void/phoenix to deny any third expansions and using phoenix to harass) and finally into a huge gateway army to finish them off.
This type of strategy feels like the same type of opening (except with 3gate expand which plays it a bit more safe) but cutting down the number of gateway units for more air upgrades to utilize the carrier's amazing scaling in the lategame. It sounds like a great idea, but I'm worried about the overall weakness of the build during the early game - I guess it would have to come down to a high player to determine whether or not these weaknesses can be overcome with execution.
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On March 19 2011 12:50 Seagull_ wrote:
This sounds like a variation of what Ace did at IEM. I think (going from memory here) he opened forge expand with 3~ cannons and a few sentries into stargate play (using a void/phoenix to deny any third expansions and using phoenix to harass) and finally into a huge gateway army to finish them off.
This type of strategy feels like the same type of opening (except with 3gate expand which plays it a bit more safe) but cutting down the number of gateway units for more air upgrades to utilize the carrier's amazing scaling in the lategame. It sounds like a great idea, but I'm worried about the overall weakness of the build during the early game - I guess it would have to come down to a high player to determine whether or not these weaknesses can be overcome with execution.
Yup, basically making it with a 3rd base up and saturated is the goal, and then I feel the build takes off. But as many people have stated early all ins or super aggressive play could definitely just kill this build, only through experience will people figure out if those types of plays are defendable with tweaks here and there to the build. Thanks for your input :D
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a few FFs would prevent the guy a few posts up from 'rolling over' the protoss with banelings and hydras
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Man, whenever one finally gets used to all the crap protoss can throw at you, you guys come up with new ways to FU zerg, why do you have to come up with such scary strategies??? I can attest that carriers are scary to face with zerg, once protoss hit critical mass.
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Its good to see suggestions of new builds that dont include colossi. What I dont get is the 3gate into expansion = fast phoenix and map control.
By the time you have phoenix out I will allready have hydras and creep spread across half the map and when I scout your phoenix you can bet your ass off that I will do a fast timing attack that will annihilate you before you even get carriers.
I will beat this build 10/10 times unless you harass me with your warpgate units BEFORE getting out phoenixes.
What I fear more is 2gate + stargate into expo where you can harass me much earlier with phoenixes.
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On March 19 2011 15:22 DaCruise wrote:
Its good to see suggestions of new builds that dont include colossi. What I dont get is the 3gate into expansion = fast phoenix and map control.
By the time you have phoenix out I will allready have hydras and creep spread across half the map and when I scout your phoenix you can bet your ass off that I will do a fast timing attack that will annihilate you before you even get carriers.
I will beat this build 10/10 times unless you harass me with your warpgate units BEFORE getting out phoenixes.
What I fear more is 2gate + stargate into expo where you can harass me much earlier with phoenixes.
You blindly make hydras? How many hydras will you have and at what time are you attempting to attack (off creep since you won't have creep up to my base)? Also I don't even get carriers until my 3rd base is up so that won't be a problem.
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What do you do if the zerg just produces corruptors and some mutas to pick off the zealots :p ?
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EPT
