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On March 19 2011 23:10 Hierarch wrote:
Also if I saw infester play, I'd just put up more gateways and do a gateway + voidray push. I do agree that infesters are probably the best counter to stargate harass, but that's a lot of gas to be allocating, and you'll be on 2 bases nonetheless taking a 3rd so your army will be mostly roach/ling otherwise.
I had already several fights where i had sling, roach, queen (6-8), infestor(4) (range and armor upgrade) vs the toss midgame push and i can tell u that this unit combo can really give toss a very hard time even if he has kolossus: If p cant micro his kolos behindt your gateway units they can be sniped by queens - (7 queens need 5 seconds to kill a kolo- fungal is 8 sec) - for voidrays its even worse! It comes down to forcfields and fungal skills and the macro but from my point of view zerg can easily fight toss cost effective and will in any case keep his infestors alive.
I would say vs a sling, roach, infestor or sling, roach, hydra combo applying pressure in mid game without colossus is very very difficult.
On top of that:
The strength of the protoss is that u can always have a save escape with its high movespeed and forcefields. Fungal can neglect. If u poke in to force zerg to build units but dont actually plan to engage - the zerg can force an engagment or will kill off some part of your army - i think this is very important.
On timings of hydra, corruptor, infestor: Hydalisk can pop 73 secnonds after lair - infestors can pop with energy upgrade 130 seconds and muta/corruptor 133/140 seconds after lair. So hydras would come out roughly 1 min earlier than infestors or corruptors.
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Just in case no one said this yet, but 1 air upgrade is plus 16 to a carrier, PLUS SIXTEEN! There are 8 interceptors with two attacks each, so 3 carriers with no upgrade deal 240 damage per volley (too lazy to do DPS, sorry xD!), while 3 carriers with 3 attack upgrades do 384 damage. That's a roach every volley, and for the interceptor's attack speed, that's just ridiculous!
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On March 20 2011 09:56 Pacman234 wrote:
Just in case no one said this yet, but 1 air upgrade is plus 16 to a carrier, PLUS SIXTEEN! There are 8 interceptors with two attacks each, so 3 carriers with no upgrade deal 240 damage per volley (too lazy to do DPS, sorry xD!), while 3 carriers with 3 attack upgrades do 384 damage. That's a roach every volley, and for the interceptor's attack speed, that's just ridiculous!
Or, since they only do +1 each individual "shot" 16 times, if the opponent has +1 armor it's +0 damage.
Air upgrades for carriers are only great if you're up a minimum of one attack to their armor. Saying it's a 16 damage upgrade is rather faulty, since it's really a 1x16 damage upgrade.
Of course, with Chronoboost it's viable to be up +1 attack to your opponent's armor if you start upgrading fairly early, but nonetheless claiming it's a 16 damage bonus per upgrade doesn't paint an accurate picture. The way armor upgrades work, +16 damage is always going to be miles ahead of +1x16 damage.
If you're 3 attack to 3 armor, it's +0 damage as 1x16. If you're 3 attack to 3 armor at 16 damage an upgrade, you're up 45 damage. Calling it 16 damage an upgrade is pretty silly.
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I'm not sure if a zerg would even allow the opponent to reach the point of carriers.
If I see a 3 gate expand, I'm either going to tech to hydras, or go roach/hydra. Once I see a stargate, especially with no colossus bay, I know I've won if I hit soon enough. I'd probably wait until 1/1 or maybe even 2/2, all the while poking, until I feel I've massed enough to push in for the win.
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On March 20 2011 08:47 Herr_Trichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:10 Hierarch wrote:
Also if I saw infester play, I'd just put up more gateways and do a gateway + voidray push. I do agree that infesters are probably the best counter to stargate harass, but that's a lot of gas to be allocating, and you'll be on 2 bases nonetheless taking a 3rd so your army will be mostly roach/ling otherwise. I had already several fights where i had sling, roach, queen (6-8), infestor(4) (range and armor upgrade) vs the toss midgame push and i can tell u that this unit combo can really give toss a very hard time even if he has kolossus: If p cant micro his kolos behindt your gateway units they can be sniped by queens - (7 queens need 5 seconds to kill a kolo- fungal is 8 sec) - for voidrays its even worse! It comes down to forcfields and fungal skills and the macro but from my point of view zerg can easily fight toss cost effective and will in any case keep his infestors alive. I would say vs a sling, roach, infestor or sling, roach, hydra combo applying pressure in mid game without colossus is very very difficult. On top of that: The strength of the protoss is that u can always have a save escape with its high movespeed and forcefields. Fungal can neglect. If u poke in to force zerg to build units but dont actually plan to engage - the zerg can force an engagment or will kill off some part of your army - i think this is very important. On timings of hydra, corruptor, infestor: Hydalisk can pop 73 secnonds after lair - infestors can pop with energy upgrade 130 seconds and muta/corruptor 133/140 seconds after lair. So hydras would come out roughly 1 min earlier than infestors or corruptors.
speedling, infester, roach, hydra + 7-9 queens is extremely expensive in all facets of zerg macro (minerals, gas, larva) and what you're describing is 2 bases at most which puts you even with me. I get to scout this, and have been doing some harassment with the phoenix. I have no incentive to attack you, i'd simply take a 3rd and laugh if you try to attack with that army off creep.
On March 20 2011 10:15 Wintertime wrote:
I'm not sure if a zerg would even allow the opponent to reach the point of carriers.
If I see a 3 gate expand, I'm either going to tech to hydras, or go roach/hydra. Once I see a stargate, especially with no colossus bay, I know I've won if I hit soon enough. I'd probably wait until 1/1 or maybe even 2/2, all the while poking, until I feel I've massed enough to push in for the win.
A 2 base timing attack would only work if it hit super fast, like a roach/ling bust, waiting for hydras, getting hydra range and 1/1 or 2/2 is expensive and will give me ample time to see it coming and prepare. Also while you're setting up i can easily run in and grab 3-4 drones from your natural and main with phoenix, and i can continue to do this delaying a push.
Another reason why I'm going to be safe is that roach/hydra isn't that mobile off creep, and when you push the roaches will be in front meaning the hydras won't be able to touch my voidrays from just owning roaches left and right. Attacking cross map with a 2 base timing like that just allows me to do what I want to do, defend. I wouldn't attempt this strategy close positions on any map.
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Few questions:
-What do you do if zerg 2base all ins you with burrow roach?
-What do you do if zerg doom drops hydras?
-What do you do v infestors? Verse mass corrupter?
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On March 20 2011 12:55 Gentleman7 wrote:
Few questions:
-What do you do if zerg 2base all ins you with burrow roach?
-What do you do if zerg doom drops hydras?
-What do you do v infestors? Verse mass corrupter?
- Canons detect, voidrays kill roaches really fast, ff's let me zone the battle.
- Depends on how many hydras, I bring my army of about 5-6 sentrys 5-6 zealots 1-2 stalkers 1 voidray and 3-5 phoenix, i start lifting hydras, depending on how many have been dropped determines how many i'd lift. We battle, it would probably be close in theory but I feel I could hold it.
- Mass corrupter just lets me do a gateway/voidray push or just a straight gateway push, if you're going mass corrupter I can just stop stargate production when I see corrupters being over made and i'll win on the ground.
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On March 20 2011 13:10 eNtitY~ wrote:
Hierarch from MLG?
lol I wish 
nope my handle is derived from a MTG card name :D
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On March 20 2011 13:01 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 12:55 Gentleman7 wrote:
Few questions:
-What do you do if zerg 2base all ins you with burrow roach?
-What do you do if zerg doom drops hydras?
-What do you do v infestors? Verse mass corrupter? - Canons detect, voidrays kill roaches really fast, ff's let me zone the battle. - Depends on how many hydras, I bring my army of about 5-6 sentrys 5-6 zealots 1-2 stalkers 1 voidray and 3-5 phoenix, i start lifting hydras, depending on how many have been dropped determines how many i'd lift. We battle, it would probably be close in theory but I feel I could hold it. - Mass corrupter just lets me do a gateway/voidray push or just a straight gateway push, if you're going mass corrupter I can just stop stargate production when I see corrupters being over made and i'll win on the ground.
-What if roaches snipe cannons quick?
-Even if it goes down like it did last night July v MC? MC was just out numbered. I can't see you holding a concentrated doom drop that you don't see coming.
-OK, what about infestor?
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On March 20 2011 13:48 Gentleman7 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 13:01 Hierarch wrote:On March 20 2011 12:55 Gentleman7 wrote:
Few questions:
-What do you do if zerg 2base all ins you with burrow roach?
-What do you do if zerg doom drops hydras?
-What do you do v infestors? Verse mass corrupter? - Canons detect, voidrays kill roaches really fast, ff's let me zone the battle. - Depends on how many hydras, I bring my army of about 5-6 sentrys 5-6 zealots 1-2 stalkers 1 voidray and 3-5 phoenix, i start lifting hydras, depending on how many have been dropped determines how many i'd lift. We battle, it would probably be close in theory but I feel I could hold it. - Mass corrupter just lets me do a gateway/voidray push or just a straight gateway push, if you're going mass corrupter I can just stop stargate production when I see corrupters being over made and i'll win on the ground. -What if roaches snipe cannons quick? -Even if it goes down like it did last night July v MC? MC was just out numbered. I can't see you holding a concentrated doom drop that you don't see coming. -OK, what about infestor?
- FF's zone the roaches from reaching a canon in time while i throw a robo down and another canon, roach timing is a 2 base timing, which means our economies will be equal.
- MC had 10-11 sentrys tickling the hydras and almost held, he also didnt have any voidrays/zealots/stalkers and didn't use his phoenix to help. He also built like 6 canons at his front which is 3-4 more than I'd have, that's 450-600 minerals which could easily have become some zealots or stalkers.
- I haven't had enough experience vs good infester play to really give accurate information.
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I love this build's concept, and this is just a random comment, but I find that the problem with posting builds is that inevitably people will say "X Y or Z will [insert synonym of beat] this", and the author is almost forced to defend his build.
Obviously, some builds will be beaten by others, and it's pretty ignorant to suggest flat-out (which is what I see sometimes) that a build is easily countered by another, period. Obviously, it comes down to scouting, and when X/Y/Z build is implemented, one could and should scout it and use another build or strategy or unit mix if the experimental build is truly very weak against X/Y/Z...
(just my two cents >_<)
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On March 20 2011 14:12 Z3kk wrote:
I love this build's concept, and this is just a random comment, but I find that the problem with posting builds is that inevitably people will say "X Y or Z will [insert synonym of beat] this", and the author is almost forced to defend his build.
Obviously, some builds will be beaten by others, and it's pretty ignorant to suggest flat-out (which is what I see sometimes) that a build is easily countered by another, period. Obviously, it comes down to scouting, and when X/Y/Z build is implemented, one could and should scout it and use another build or strategy or unit mix if the experimental build is truly very weak against X/Y/Z...
(just my two cents >_<)
The only thing I see as being a hard counter or an extremely hard timing to stop is an ultra fast hydra drop in the main ie: July vs MC on Terminus RE in the GSL finals.
But It's just a safe build, I'm not going out on the map except with my phoenix and they also give me key scouting information also. I just don't understand why people feel that it just dies to this or that without playing against it, if this build died to x or y then none of the colossus builds would work either since all the timings people are suggesting are before the 1st colossus is out, or 1 is out with no gateway support.
Thanks though, I don't mind defending the build as long as people eventually stop asking about the same things that i've already spoken on for the past 10 pages :D
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So I tried this another time yesterday while at my LAN (which is why I don't have the replay) using the double stargate off of a FFE on Taldarim Alter. I was honestly amazed at how well the mass phoenix harass is. I kept the zerg on 3 bases the entire duration of the game (17 minutes at least) and was picking up queens, drones, and running into fields of overlords killing them instantly.
However the problem I discovered (which would probably come to anyone doing this for the first time when they realize how fun it is) is that I made TOO many phoenix, and due to that I got maxed extremely quickly. I was unable to get colossi or HT's out so when the giant battle occurred I basically didn't stand a chance. He had a composition of hydra/small corruptor count/baneling drops.
If I just practice this style a little bit more I will discover the proper times to tech switch and start purposefully losing phoenix to free up more supply.
Something else that I thought was totally awesome was that my opponent opened muta's. I can assure you he did not attack me with them once during the entire game. He was completely contained in his base. I even was continuously picking up zerglings at watch towers.
I'm really liking this ^^
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On March 20 2011 12:46 Hierarch wrote:
[speedling, infester, roach, hydra + 7-9 queens is extremely expensive in all facets of zerg macro (minerals, gas, larva) and what you're describing is 2 bases at most which puts you even with me. I get to scout this, and have been doing some harassment with the phoenix. I have no incentive to attack you, i'd simply take a 3rd and laugh if you try to attack with that army off creep.
map.
In the build i discribe there is no hydra den!
The moment u go 2 stargate and i scout it i get:
1. extra queens (6 and more) and spread creep everywhere
2. spore in mineral line and 1 at the front if u go voidray heavy move all ovis to surround a spore
3. infestation pit
4. double evo
5. drones drones drones (remeber that zerg is already ahead 5-10 drones at this point)
6. fast 3rd
Sling+roach is actually very cost efficient at defeating warpgate units.
If u go 1 voidray first and then 6-8 phenix to force cancle on my third u will most likely succeed 1 time - if u try it again u might be loosing alot to fungal growth and queens.
After zerg has infestors and queens up u wont be able to put anymore pressure on the zerg until u got ht or colossus and thats the problem of your build! How u plan to stop the zerg if he goes for a handful of hydras after the infestors?
U lough at the zerg and get a 3rd? zerg will lough back and get 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches and demolish u. If p does not put pressure on zerg hes damned to loose.
The benefit of sling, roach, infestor, queen is that u have a very cost efficient defense vs everything p can throw at u and can get expos pretty safely.
Here is a replay of me doing slin, roach, infestor into corruptor,broodlord vs toss colossus voidray
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/151143-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
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On March 21 2011 00:36 Herr_Trichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 12:46 Hierarch wrote:
[speedling, infester, roach, hydra + 7-9 queens is extremely expensive in all facets of zerg macro (minerals, gas, larva) and what you're describing is 2 bases at most which puts you even with me. I get to scout this, and have been doing some harassment with the phoenix. I have no incentive to attack you, i'd simply take a 3rd and laugh if you try to attack with that army off creep.
map. In the build i discribe there is no hydra den! The moment u go 2 stargate and i scout it i get: 1. extra queens (6 and more) and spread creep everywhere 2. spore in mineral line and 1 at the front if u go voidray heavy move all ovis to surround a spore 3. infestation pit 4. double evo 5. drones drones drones (remeber that zerg is already ahead 5-10 drones at this point) 6. fast 3rd Sling+roach is actually very cost efficient at defeating warpgate units. If u go 1 voidray first and then 6-8 phenix to force cancle on my third u will most likely succeed 1 time - if u try it again u might be loosing alot to fungal growth and queens. After zerg has infestors and queens up u wont be able to put anymore pressure on the zerg until u got ht or colossus and thats the problem of your build! How u plan to stop the zerg if he goes for a handful of hydras after the infestors? U lough at the zerg and get a 3rd? zerg will lough back and get 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches and demolish u. If p does not put pressure on zerg hes damned to loose. The benefit of sling, roach, infestor, queen is that u have a very cost efficient defense vs everything p can throw at u and can get expos pretty safely. Here is a replay of me doing slin, roach, infestor into corruptor,broodlord vs toss colossus voidray http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/151143-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
Adding HT would slaughter infestor and queen even without storm. Storm and archons would destroy slings and hydra. It takes time to transition to but you won't have 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches.
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On March 21 2011 01:51 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 00:36 Herr_Trichter wrote:On March 20 2011 12:46 Hierarch wrote:
[speedling, infester, roach, hydra + 7-9 queens is extremely expensive in all facets of zerg macro (minerals, gas, larva) and what you're describing is 2 bases at most which puts you even with me. I get to scout this, and have been doing some harassment with the phoenix. I have no incentive to attack you, i'd simply take a 3rd and laugh if you try to attack with that army off creep.
map. In the build i discribe there is no hydra den! The moment u go 2 stargate and i scout it i get: 1. extra queens (6 and more) and spread creep everywhere 2. spore in mineral line and 1 at the front if u go voidray heavy move all ovis to surround a spore 3. infestation pit 4. double evo 5. drones drones drones (remeber that zerg is already ahead 5-10 drones at this point) 6. fast 3rd Sling+roach is actually very cost efficient at defeating warpgate units. If u go 1 voidray first and then 6-8 phenix to force cancle on my third u will most likely succeed 1 time - if u try it again u might be loosing alot to fungal growth and queens. After zerg has infestors and queens up u wont be able to put anymore pressure on the zerg until u got ht or colossus and thats the problem of your build! How u plan to stop the zerg if he goes for a handful of hydras after the infestors? U lough at the zerg and get a 3rd? zerg will lough back and get 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches and demolish u. If p does not put pressure on zerg hes damned to loose. The benefit of sling, roach, infestor, queen is that u have a very cost efficient defense vs everything p can throw at u and can get expos pretty safely. Here is a replay of me doing slin, roach, infestor into corruptor,broodlord vs toss colossus voidray http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/151143-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis Adding HT would slaughter infestor and queen even without storm. Storm and archons would destroy slings and hydra. It takes time to transition to but you won't have 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches.
It actually wouldn't take time to transition into, due to I will have a twilight council up, and templar archives doesn't take that long to build. Also I don't need to get storm so i can immediately warp in some HT for feedback purposes,
Also to get Archons I most likely will already have my Dark shrine up and DT's can become archons :D
On March 20 2011 23:25 Gemini_19 wrote:
So I tried this another time yesterday while at my LAN (which is why I don't have the replay) using the double stargate off of a FFE on Taldarim Alter. I was honestly amazed at how well the mass phoenix harass is. I kept the zerg on 3 bases the entire duration of the game (17 minutes at least) and was picking up queens, drones, and running into fields of overlords killing them instantly.
However the problem I discovered (which would probably come to anyone doing this for the first time when they realize how fun it is) is that I made TOO many phoenix, and due to that I got maxed extremely quickly. I was unable to get colossi or HT's out so when the giant battle occurred I basically didn't stand a chance. He had a composition of hydra/small corruptor count/baneling drops.
If I just practice this style a little bit more I will discover the proper times to tech switch and start purposefully losing phoenix to free up more supply.
Something else that I thought was totally awesome was that my opponent opened muta's. I can assure you he did not attack me with them once during the entire game. He was completely contained in his base. I even was continuously picking up zerglings at watch towers.
I'm really liking this ^^
Ya learning when you need just straight up fighting units is a tough call to make, when I want to lose my phoenix I just fly them into the zergs mineral lines and pick up drones and kill them until all my phoenix are dead, I then replace the losses from 3-4 stargates of voidrays and/or carriers.
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On March 21 2011 00:36 Herr_Trichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 12:46 Hierarch wrote:
[speedling, infester, roach, hydra + 7-9 queens is extremely expensive in all facets of zerg macro (minerals, gas, larva) and what you're describing is 2 bases at most which puts you even with me. I get to scout this, and have been doing some harassment with the phoenix. I have no incentive to attack you, i'd simply take a 3rd and laugh if you try to attack with that army off creep.
map. In the build i discribe there is no hydra den! The moment u go 2 stargate and i scout it i get: 1. extra queens (6 and more) and spread creep everywhere 2. spore in mineral line and 1 at the front if u go voidray heavy move all ovis to surround a spore 3. infestation pit 4. double evo 5. drones drones drones (remeber that zerg is already ahead 5-10 drones at this point) 6. fast 3rd Sling+roach is actually very cost efficient at defeating warpgate units. If u go 1 voidray first and then 6-8 phenix to force cancle on my third u will most likely succeed 1 time - if u try it again u might be loosing alot to fungal growth and queens. After zerg has infestors and queens up u wont be able to put anymore pressure on the zerg until u got ht or colossus and thats the problem of your build! How u plan to stop the zerg if he goes for a handful of hydras after the infestors? U lough at the zerg and get a 3rd? zerg will lough back and get 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches and demolish u. If p does not put pressure on zerg hes damned to loose. The benefit of sling, roach, infestor, queen is that u have a very cost efficient defense vs everything p can throw at u and can get expos pretty safely. Here is a replay of me doing slin, roach, infestor into corruptor,broodlord vs toss colossus voidray http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/151143-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
According to your 6 points you aren't making many units, as soon as my phoenix fly in and see this i immediately pump 2 voidrays and put up a 5th gateway, then I just push with my gateways units, phoenix, 3 voidrays and reinforce from 5 warpgates. Any ling composition is a heavy larva investment, and if you're making as many drones as you're claiming i'll just run you over with a sentry, stalker, zealot force with some voidray and phoenix support. FF's just let me own roaches and lings.
When I force a cancel/delay your 3rd that's the goal, it's not to deny it, but to keep you on the same number of bases as me, as long as possible.
HT can feedback infesters and queens, and I don't even need to research storm, I can feedback and then make archons which are amazing vs zerg.
Your replay is against someone going colossus voidray, which means their gateway unit count is low and their air units will be a lot less upgraded than mine and they spent a ton of resources on colossus (robo bay, range etc...). Broodlords are also a lot less efficient against my unit composition.
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On March 21 2011 00:36 Herr_Trichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 12:46 Hierarch wrote:
[speedling, infester, roach, hydra + 7-9 queens is extremely expensive in all facets of zerg macro (minerals, gas, larva) and what you're describing is 2 bases at most which puts you even with me. I get to scout this, and have been doing some harassment with the phoenix. I have no incentive to attack you, i'd simply take a 3rd and laugh if you try to attack with that army off creep.
map. In the build i discribe there is no hydra den! The moment u go 2 stargate and i scout it i get: 1. extra queens (6 and more) and spread creep everywhere 2. spore in mineral line and 1 at the front if u go voidray heavy move all ovis to surround a spore 3. infestation pit 4. double evo 5. drones drones drones (remeber that zerg is already ahead 5-10 drones at this point) 6. fast 3rd Sling+roach is actually very cost efficient at defeating warpgate units. If u go 1 voidray first and then 6-8 phenix to force cancle on my third u will most likely succeed 1 time - if u try it again u might be loosing alot to fungal growth and queens. After zerg has infestors and queens up u wont be able to put anymore pressure on the zerg until u got ht or colossus and thats the problem of your build! How u plan to stop the zerg if he goes for a handful of hydras after the infestors? U lough at the zerg and get a 3rd? zerg will lough back and get 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches and demolish u. If p does not put pressure on zerg hes damned to loose. The benefit of sling, roach, infestor, queen is that u have a very cost efficient defense vs everything p can throw at u and can get expos pretty safely. Here is a replay of me doing slin, roach, infestor into corruptor,broodlord vs toss colossus voidray http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/151143-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
I laughed pretty hard when I read this. Why does he have to pressure???? All he has to do is get his third get the gas. Make a decision as to what tech route to go or multi tech routes and then attack when he is close to max. He still has pheonix to scout and if you do get too greedy he can punish you. Just because the infestors and queens stop his harass doesn't mean pheonix become instantly worthless. Infestors and Queens are really slow even on creep. Also, did you even read the title of the thread???
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Don't know if this has been mensioned yet, sorry if it has, but wouldn't Roach (to shield the hydras from zealots), Hydra and infestor counter this quite well? FG the zealots and then infested terran under the carriers/ voidrays, or NP a carrier or two, or the mothership if it comes. Get some overseers to spot obs, DT's and units under the Mothership cloak. Then once the obs are out the way, burrow everything and move the roaches into a good possition, same with infestors, spawn infested terran from underground and then unburrow everything as they pop
So basically Roach Hydra Infestor and maybe some corruptors
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EPT
