Intro Big thanks to iEchoic, one of my old team mates from a different game, for the format! Also thanks to JelloGelatin who suggested I post this on TL! Lastly thanks to my friend Andrew Tribone for helping me smooth the build out with constant customs
* I am by no means a top player, however I am a competent player. Hopefully some better players can help me assess this build I've had so much fun using.
I started to get bored of the same old same old colossus ball mentality in PvZ, sure it's good and it works, but zergs are really starting to work out how to do quite well against it. Now I've seen alot of phoenix play to force Hydras and then go colossus to counter the Hydras, but what about just staying with air units! Some quick notes about the build:
- Extremely safe and stable with a standard 3 gate expand - Able to constantly harass zerg all game - Allows for passive play like a colossus style but allows for some activity
The result is a 3 Gate expand opening into 2 stargates while using Carriers as the end game unit.
This build is highly untested at top level of play, but I could see it succeeding (hopefully).
This build starts out with a safe 3 warpgate expansion with sentry's and zealots, however it involves only 4-6 sentrys instead of the 6-10 and is extremely zealot heavy. The main goal of this build is to safely expand and then deny zerg a 3rd base for as long as possible and constantly keeping zerg in their base as much as possible. After puting down the nexus a forge is built and then a 4th gateway and 2 stargates, you must put down 2-3 canons at your natural since observers come extremely late in this build. As soon as the stargates finish 1 voidray is made and then phoenix are made for as long as you wish. I usually go to 5-8 phoenix.
The voidray's main purpose is to snipe zerg's 3rd base that usually is starting or just started at this point. With 1 voidray and 5-6 phoenix you can almost always kill the 3rd hatch, or force a cancel. The phoenix can then go around killing overlords and queens. The usual reaction by zerg if they aren't already going Hydra's is to make a Hydra Den. Now you have 1 of 2 options with this build. You can continue to make phoenix and get into the 10-12 count and just start picking small groups of hydras up, phoenix do amazing damage to Hydras and kill them quite quickly. Or option two is that zerg will put down spore crawlers at his bases, if they put down 1 spore you can just ignore it and pick up drones and queens no problem, so it really makes them put 2-3 which hurts their economy greatly.
The reason this build is so zealot heavy is that all your gas is going into the air units and upgrades, I start +1 air attack and +1 ground weapons around the time my stargates finish. So the gas ends up being sunk into upgrades, air units which leaves a need for a mineral sink. Zealots, Probes, Canons and Nexus are the main mineral sinks.
When comfortable you take your 3rd and make about 3-5 canons at it zoning one side off. At some point before taking your 3rd base put down a twilight council, when it finishes research charge ASAP, this makes all those zealots you made in the early game only semi useless, and start on ground weapons 2 and 3. When the 3rd goes up put down your fleet beacon and a dark shrine and 2 more gateways, and start making carriers out of your 2 stargates, make sure to get the intercepter upgrade and you can start a mothership if you can squeeze it in, I usually only get one towards when I'm at 180-190 food. Also put down your robo when you feel you need an observer.
All the while you should be harrassing with DT's and Phoenix where you can, I usually use DT's to deny zerg a 4th base while sending 1-2 to try and kill drones. Throughout the game upgrades should be going, I usually have atleast 2+/1+ on my air and 3/1+ on my ground each time, but since you can just constantly chronoboost the cybernetics core and one forge you can upgrade constantly and consistently.
Once you get 3 bases rolling you can just harass as much as you want and max out, once maxed add 2 more stargates and 4-6 more gateways.
The main power of this build is that the only good anti air zerg has are queens, hydras and corrupters. Voidrays kill corrupters extremely fast and carriers kill hydras and queens quite fast. Along with tons of zealots and a few stalkers the hydras just disintegrate. When refilling your army all your gas is going to go into carriers so you mostly are warping in zealots unless you have extra gas in which case you can use stalkers.
This build can even hold most early aggression with use of good scouting and voidrays + ff's. Phoenix can also lift 6-8 units and just erase them from the math, which allows you to be safe while harassing.
NOTE: this build order is very weird. You can tweak it as much as you want and transition into whatever you want.
-9 Pylon (scout) - I usually pylon block the zerg's natural 95% of the time if I can -13 Gateway (to form the zealot wall at your ramp with the core) -14 Gas -18 Core (when your gateway finishes) -19 2nd gas after your core -19-21 Zealot (when you can afford it) -22-24 Pylon -(supply counts discontinued from here - keep making probes nonstop and don't be afraid to chronoboost them out as much as you want) -Warp Gate when your core finishes -2-3 sentrys after the zealot -Gateways 2 and 3 around 28-32 supply -when warp gate is 90%+ done walk down your ramp and plant your nexus -pylon by your ramp -take the 2 gasses preemptively when the nexus is about 40-50% -forge next to the pylon -2 stargates in a tucked away corner -4th gateway next to the forge, 2 canons wherever you feel they are needed. Youcan get -a 3rd but it's preferential. -Once stargates finish, voidray, phoenix -once you start those two air units +1 ground weapons and +1 air weapons, upgrade +1 ground armor and +1 air armor when they finish -send your voidray wherever you feel it's most useful, leave your base with phoenix when you have 4, rally the other phoenix to the others and harass, pick up queens 1st -pylons,probes constantly -Warp in gateway units when you have the money, zelaots mostly but you can fit stalkers in where you want. When you're done with phoenix production make 4-6 voidrays. Now if the phoenix harass does a ton of damage you canjust go and kill them with the voidray timing, otherwise take your 3rd and plant down a twilight council and fleet beacon -canons at your 3rd and begin carrier production
This build gains early map control over all Zerg Compositions simply because phoenix keep overlords off the map and can lift units off watchtowers, a zerg in the dark is not nearly as dangerous as one with vision everywhere.
DT's and Phoenix give protoss harassment potential all game and since phoenix are so fast they can harass and still be recalled to defend. Phoenix also act like marauders in the fact that if you try and run from them they will lift the units and kill alot of them for free
Hydras - Extremely slow, and fragile, even if someone were to push using hydras, well placed forcefields and voidrays + phoenix lift can easily defend.
Corrupters - Zerg must have a metric ton of these to beat carrier, voidray, stalker. Since zealots just draw fire while everything else kills corrupters.
Queens - Only viable against 1-2 voidrays, phoenix negate them almost completely as anti air.
Mutalisks - Phoenix just shred these, it's not even worth trying.
From there, notice:
Zerg can't really make a good attack Hydra - Too slow and fragile Queen - Too slow and phoenix have usually killed 4-5 of them already Corrupters - quite slow, don't really do the job well enough Mutalisks - No chance against 2 stargate phoenix
Since it uses the 3 gate expand, you can use the same strategies as your colossus strategy to defend 1 base all ins, and it can defend early roach pressure with void rays and phoenix, it can defend vs ling + hydra pushes with zealots, ff's, voidrays and pheonix.
Here's some basic principles: 1) You must be as active as possible with the phoenix to fully utilize them 2) Do not be afraid to build zealots, they soak up a TON of damage and they stall 3) Do not forget upgrades, the forge and core should always be upgrading 4) Once Carriers are out, you are in control, carriers are quite underestimated, unknown in SC2
Carriers are better than colossus for a couple reasons as an end game unit:
1) 6+ colossus become redundant as they cannot usually form a good enough concave. Carriers just become exponentially better as their numbers increase
2) Carriers have massive range just like colossus, but the intercepters wreak havoc with the targeting AI, and Zealots keep Hydras from crawling forward to hit the carriers.
3) Zerg T3 CANNOT ATTACK AIR UNITS!
Tips and Tricks
When you get a high phoenix count you can just fly through fields of overlords and just watch them evaporate.
Replays
Myself
These games aren't the best, but they demonstrate what this build accomplishes:
I have more, but they are just custom games versus my friend while I worked on the build
I'm mainly looking for feedback and to see if this build would be viable at high level PvZ, I am not looking for comments on my play as I know I'm not that good :D
Edit #1 Mass Hydralisk does not do well against a carrier composition, they are too slow and just get melted before they can slither up to hit the carriers, I've had this tried against me many times, and others in this thread have echoed my findings. IF you don't believe it then go test it.
Also, I never meant for this build to be better than a colossus strategy, or to be used every game. I just found it a refreshing twist that can be implemented with a standard 3 gate expand.
Edit #2 I will add replays of myself and anyone else who is using this strategy to this OP for more reference points.
So let me get this straight... The zealot is the pilot of the pheonix, but after crashing after killing a few overlords gets promoted into a void ray later to transform into a carrier like the cripples on Family guy who created the "crippletron"?
The damage of a Carrier is 3 times less per cost assuming a Collosus is hitting 3 things with it's beams. Everything else ends up being about equal so unless this is an island map I would not produce carriers even if I had already made double stargate. I feel as though if your really going to go carriers u need mass cannons, hope he doesn't scout it and 3 stargate attack with Carrier after Pheonix harass and hope he made too much ground, I could see that working against diamond and lower.
The reason this works a lot is because zergs get super scared of moving out when they are having trouble getting their third up, but the sad truth is that this build was just DIE to any 2 base roach hydra push. Smarter opponents are really good about identifying times when you are relying on harass alone and will just kill you for it. I can only see this working after a 3 gate expand.
EDIT: Ohp, it does use the 3gate expand. I assumed you opened VR+phoenix harass or something. Nice build, I've been going carriers lately in PvZ and after some practice I've found that in a big fight the carriers are totally safe from hydras but you HAVE to have void rays for corruptors, stalkers won't cut it.
On March 18 2011 13:44 KillerPenguin wrote: The damage of a Carrier is 3 times less per cost assuming a Collosus is hitting 3 things with it's beams. Everything else ends up being about equal so unless this is an island map I would not produce carriers even if I had already made double stargate. I feel as though if your really going to go carriers u need mass cannons, hope he doesn't scout it and 3 stargate attack with Carrier after Pheonix harass and hope he made too much ground, I could see that working against diamond and lower.
True on the colossus, but carriers offer the targeting nightmare that broodlords offer as well, if you watch the replays mass corrupter really doesn't even work as well as you would think.
Could you give me an example where you would need more than 2-3 canons? I'm not carrier rushing, it's a transition. But thanks for the input.
On March 18 2011 13:48 CCalms wrote: The reason this works a lot is because zergs get super scared of moving out when they are having trouble getting their third up, but the sad truth is that this build was just DIE to any 2 base roach hydra push. Smarter opponents are really good about identifying times when you are relying on harass alone and will just kill you for it. I can only see this working after a 3 gate expand.
It does come from a 3 gate expand as my 1st post states, Do you think a hydra, roach push could crack 2-3 canons, 5-6 phoenix and 2-3 voidrays with some ff's? Since phoenix can pick hydras up and kill them relatively fast?
would loooove to see some top level players extensively try to refine this strategy. the question is can you effectively deal harass so zerg can't get those hoards of units they're known for. since you wont have those aoe dealing units, this could get very tricky. will be interesting to see what comes of this.
On March 18 2011 13:50 Audi309 wrote: would loooove to see some top level players extensively try to refine this strategy. the question is can you effectively deal harass so zerg can't get those hoards of units they're known for. since you wont have those aoe dealing units, this could get very tricky. will be interesting to see what comes of this.
Carriers DPS is actually insane when they get +2 or +3 air attack, and to replace the aoe for late game the intercepters help by messing up targeting AI, the 1st replay I posted demonstrates this quite well.
I also would love to see some players fool around with this as it can give some good variance in play after a 3gate expand you can go colossus or stargate.
On March 18 2011 13:48 CCalms wrote: EDIT: Ohp, it does use the 3gate expand. I assumed you opened VR+phoenix harass or something. Nice build, I've been going carriers lately in PvZ and after some practice I've found that in a big fight the carriers are totally safe from hydras but you HAVE to have void rays for corruptors, stalkers won't cut it.
I actually have found that zergs neglect air upgrades other than maybe +1 air attack while you can easily power 3/1 air or 3/2 air with chronoboost and then carriers just beat corrupters.
I've been trying mass Phoenix into Voidray/Carrier for the last two weeks, ever since I fucked up a 3gate expand one game and built 2cybernetics cores. and went "fuck it" powered air upgrades with 20 phoenix into voidray/Carrier...and had it work surprisingly well
I think i've tried this around 15 times now, majority of it wins because I don't think Zerg have ever seen a Carrier in PvZ before.
Anyway, few things I've found help:
- Rally your first Voidray to your opponents third (I wait till I have 2 Phoenix to send it out), so you can deny any greedy plays
- Keep Phoenixes alive in favor of doing eco damage early. You don't have to do too much damage, the real damage comes in when the Zerg tries to take a third and you have 15-20 Phoenixes with Voidrays building (and most likely close to 2-2).
-When Zerg takes his third then you can go in and kill mineral lines. If you ever wanted to see Zerg's 1 control group syndrome put to the test, this is it. Just fly between two bases then instantly split your group in half and send them to each expo. Most Zergs squirm at this point, because if they split their hydras and you didn't split your Phoenixes, you can go in and kill all their hydras sometimes
- Cannon your third (and ever expo after that) like your life depends on it, because it does
- You need a decent amount of Voidrays before you can go Carriers otherwise you just lose to Corruptors
- Don't try this close position Meta/Shattered. You need a third, doesn't matter if it is a bit late but you really need one to cross the line where you you can only win fights where you are defending to where you can comfortably engage the Zerg.
- Suicide Zealots at creep tumors. Hydras on creep do super well on Phoenixes, but if they step off they turn into a giant conga line and you can mangetout around and snipe the hydra without taking the full DPS of the hydra ball. Mid game just grab a warp prism with an observer and go around killing Tumors where possible
- DT's work great as amazing base defense against a Drop-Happy/Aggressive Zerg. Your Phoenix snipe all the overseers then you just run away and let all the DT's rip apart the Hydra/Roach. Just use the Phoenix to then intercept any more overseers that come
- Complete wall offs tend to bite you in the butt sometimes, because until you have Carriers you don't have a lot of range on Hydra and you don't want to stream Zealots through a tiny hole into the Hydralist meat grinder
- Think about getting Templar with speed Prisms lategame, a Smart Zerg started to Neural Parasite charged Voidrays which actually hurt since they rip apart Carriers
- Get a Mothership. Just because you can. (but seriously, keep it at your base and mass recall your fleet if it looks bad)
I've been trying mass Phoenix into Voidray/Carrier for the last two weeks, ever since I fucked up a 3gate expand one game and built 2cybernetics cores. and went "fuck it" powered air upgrades with 20 phoenix into voidray/Carrier...and had it work surprisingly well
I think i've tried this around 15 times now, majority of it wins because I don't think Zerg have ever seen a Carrier in PvZ before.
Anyway, few things I've found help:
- Rally your first Voidray to your opponents third (I wait till I have 2 Phoenix to send it out), so you can deny any greedy plays
- Keep Phoenixes alive in favor of doing eco damage early. You don't have to do too much damage, the real damage comes in when the Zerg tries to take a third and you have 15-20 Phoenixes with Voidrays building (and most likely close to 2-2).
-When Zerg takes his third then you can go in and kill mineral lines. If you ever wanted to see Zerg's 1 control group syndrome put to the test, this is it. Just fly between two bases then instantly split your group in half and send them to each expo. Most Zergs squirm at this point, because if they split their hydras and you didn't split your Phoenixes, you can go in and kill all their hydras sometimes
- Cannon your third (and ever expo after that) like your life depends on it, because it does
- You need a decent amount of Voidrays before you can go Carriers otherwise you just lose to Corruptors
- Don't try this close position Meta/Shattered. You need a third, doesn't matter if it is a bit late but you really need one to cross the line where you you can only win fights where you are defending to where you can comfortably engage the Zerg.
- Suicide Zealots at creep tumors. Hydras on creep do super well on Phoenixes, but if they step off they turn into a giant conga line and you can mangetout around and snipe the hydra without taking the full DPS of the hydra ball. Mid game just grab a warp prism with an observer and go around killing Tumors where possible
- DT's work great as amazing base defense against a Drop-Happy/Aggressive Zerg. Your Phoenix snipe all the overseers then you just run away and let all the DT's rip apart the Hydra/Roach. Just use the Phoenix to then intercept any more overseers that come
- Complete wall offs tend to bite you in the butt sometimes, because until you have Carriers you don't have a lot of range on Hydra and you don't want to stream Zealots through a tiny hole into the Hydralist meat grinder
- Think about getting Templar with speed Prisms lategame, a Smart Zerg started to Neural Parasite charged Voidrays which actually hurt since they rip apart Carriers
- Get a Mothership. Just because you can. (but seriously, keep it at your base and mass recall your fleet if it looks bad)
- I don't quite make that many phoenix, but powering out 12-15 could work since they are just an all around good unit, build fast and don't cost that much.
- Ya, I need to work on getting my robo down faster for an obs to deny creep
- Yup, once I have DT's or a mothership I just target overseers
- I do a semi wall off at my natural with my ramp connecting to my nexus, but I agree that full walls are suicide.
- I haven't found any point in my games where I have any gas to spare, I'm always mineral heavy which is why I make so many zealots, and I always canon my 3rd+ expos hard
- I haven't gotten to try this in close pos on those maps, but thanks for the advice
- I usually get 5-7 Voidrays before I even start my 1st carrier
- Do you go for drones or queens 1st when harassing with phoenix?
- Glad to see someone else trying the stargate play over colossus ball, thanks for the input :D
On March 18 2011 14:13 LesPhoques wrote: I think this will die to early roach+speedling attack off 2 bases. You wouldn't be able to hold that with 4-5 sentries and zealots only.
Not even with 2-3 canons? Also around what time does this attack come usually? Cause with 1 voidray out I can easily survive.
On March 18 2011 14:13 LesPhoques wrote: I think this will die to early roach+speedling attack off 2 bases. You wouldn't be able to hold that with 4-5 sentries and zealots only.
It is 50/50. If you see it coming then you can stop making Phoenixes and switch to Voidrays for the attack. If it is a map like Typhon then I don't think it is possible to do this style of play. There are too many paths into every base and your naturals are super open. Shattered Temple/Delta Quad/Scrap Station/Cross or Close by air on Meta work fine.
Probably don't want to do it on Xel'Naga/Close position ST and Meta/Slagpits/Typhon. Backwater is up in the air really, I veto that map so I wouldn't know.
- Do you go for drones or queens 1st when harassing with phoenix?
If you can get a queen early it is worth it, but most people mass Queens as well hydra. I try to not prioritize harassing over Phoenixes because you really need them if Zerg attacks you.
Yeah I think I might be making too many Phoenixes, I don't know, there isn't really any kind of standard for this so I've just been winging it every game
Mutas are actually extremely good against Phoenix as long as there are a decent number of them. Definitely not worth dismissing that.
Good build, though. I've long thought that Carriers were incredibly underused, especially given the huge delays that Phoenix builds can cause in Zerg's ability to mass and push out.
This looks good and interesting, but I'm wondering how well it'd do against pure hydras. Something terran can do (And as a terran player, I'm looking at it from their POV) is simply stim marines, and kill the interceptors to win. Have you ever had a zerg go pure hydra, and attempt to do this, or do they tend not to/pure hydra loses? (assumption: 3/3 hydras, since zerg tends to get double ups and this would be very late, against a almost maxed army of yours)
Otherwise, I like it =) I offrace toss, and love stargate play- I resort to it to get out of bad situations ^_^
On March 18 2011 14:21 oOOoOphidian wrote: Mutas are actually extremely good against Phoenix as long as there are a decent number of them. Definitely not worth dismissing that.
Good build, though. I've long thought that Carriers were incredibly underused, especially given the huge delays that Phoenix builds can cause in Zerg's ability to mass and push out.
If I see mutas being made I can outproduce zerg and keep air dominance with 2 chronoboosted stargate phoenix, maybe not worth dismissing entirely, but to be fair like 90% of zergs won't bother with the investment into mutas if they see 4-5 phoenix already. Thanks for the input though, but do you think a zerg could fight for air dominance against phoenix? Even if they did get equal numbers how would zerg hold off a push of zealot/sentry/stalker/phoenix?
On March 18 2011 14:24 Selkie wrote: This looks good and interesting, but I'm wondering how well it'd do against pure hydras. Something terran can do (And as a terran player, I'm looking at it from their POV) is simply stim marines, and kill the interceptors to win. Have you ever had a zerg go pure hydra, and attempt to do this, or do they tend not to/pure hydra loses? (assumption: 3/3 hydras, since zerg tends to get double ups and this would be very late, against a almost maxed army of yours)
Otherwise, I like it =) I offrace toss, and love stargate play- I resort to it to get out of bad situations ^_^
Watch the 1st replay I posted, mass hydras is my opponents unit composition choice :D
On March 18 2011 14:24 Selkie wrote: This looks good and interesting, but I'm wondering how well it'd do against pure hydras. Something terran can do (And as a terran player, I'm looking at it from their POV) is simply stim marines, and kill the interceptors to win. Have you ever had a zerg go pure hydra, and attempt to do this, or do they tend not to/pure hydra loses? (assumption: 3/3 hydras, since zerg tends to get double ups and this would be very late, against a almost maxed army of yours)
Otherwise, I like it =) I offrace toss, and love stargate play- I resort to it to get out of bad situations ^_^
If they go pure Hydra I usually end up winning. When you have a lot of Carriers you have some crazy DPS and you can start ripping through Hydra quickly, when it looks like hes taken out half the interceptors you can recall/back out then engage him again.
I was playing around with the unit Tester, cost for cost, Hydra don't do well against Carriers especially offcreep where it is near impossible for them to even target Carriers. Try it your self, you will be surprised.
But yeah, this doesn't work against Terran. The Marine counters every single unit in this build..lol
On March 18 2011 14:24 Selkie wrote: This looks good and interesting, but I'm wondering how well it'd do against pure hydras. Something terran can do (And as a terran player, I'm looking at it from their POV) is simply stim marines, and kill the interceptors to win. Have you ever had a zerg go pure hydra, and attempt to do this, or do they tend not to/pure hydra loses? (assumption: 3/3 hydras, since zerg tends to get double ups and this would be very late, against a almost maxed army of yours)
Otherwise, I like it =) I offrace toss, and love stargate play- I resort to it to get out of bad situations ^_^
If they go pure Hydra I usually end up winning. When you have a lot of Carriers you have some crazy DPS and you can start ripping through Hydra quickly, when it looks like hes taken out half the interceptors you can recall/back out then engage him again.
I was playing around with the unit Tester, cost for cost, Hydra don't do well against Carriers especially offcreep where it is near impossible for them to even target Carriers. Try it your self, you will be surprised.
But yeah, this doesn't work against Terran. The Marine counters every single unit in this build..lol
Yup, I don't even bother trying this vs Terran, stimmed marines and turrets just own stargate play lol. Although I've seen KiWiKaKi doing some cool gateway into lategame carrier plays vs terran.
Out of curiosity, what happens when the opponent reacts by pumping corruptors to deal with the Phoenix/1 VR harass, especially if that was his plan originally? The corruptors can deal with void rays as long as they outnumber them fairly soundly, and he can then fly the corruptors to your Stargates to kill newly made VRs.
Interesting... I don't know I can't see how a reasonably high level player would be stunted by this. I will almost always make corruptors against Protoss, and they're not that hard to mass. With corruption and target fire the carriers will evaporate, so will void rays. Plus, pros would be keeping close to perfect macro / harassment which would make it difficult to get to carrier tech untouched.
On March 18 2011 14:34 Aequos wrote: Out of curiosity, what happens when the opponent reacts by pumping corruptors to deal with the Phoenix/1 VR harass, especially if that was his plan originally? The corruptors can deal with void rays as long as they outnumber them fairly soundly, and he can then fly the corruptors to your Stargates to kill newly made VRs.
My friend actually tried that for like 5 games, he went corrupters to deal with the VR and phoenix, but If I see that I just up my gateway count, and I either stop stargate production or I just start massing VR's in a corner. If I stop stargate production I throw down two robos and pump immortals. But corrupters aren't cheap and they don't actually do anything other than deter harass. Also a very important fact to remember is that phoenix are faster than corrupters, so you can just raid drone lines and leave before the corrupters can even get a volley or two off.
On March 18 2011 14:37 Maynarde wrote: Interesting... I don't know I can't see how a reasonably high level player would be stunted by this. I will almost always make corruptors against Protoss, and they're not that hard to mass. With corruption and target fire the carriers will evaporate, so will void rays. Plus, pros would be keeping close to perfect macro / harassment which would make it difficult to get to carrier tech untouched.
The protoss is the harasser in this build by a long shot, phoenix and DT's make the zerg play a lot more defensively than they would want to normally, and teching to carriers off 3 bases is actually quite easy, all you need to do is put down a fleet beacon, and since 2 stargates cost 300/300 off 2 base while colossus play costs 600/500 off 2 base means you save a good amount of resources. Also I think you're overestimating corrupters, they really aren't that good, from my experience and I've had people just mass corrupters because they didn't know what else to do vs this build.
Mutas shread phoenix when they hit a nice number, however with this build you will be able to produce a lot more phoeinx than we normally see. What I mean is we usually see things like 5-6 phoenix getting taken out by 25+ mutas, but I think if you had like 15 phoenix it would be a different story. But its hard to say since we've never seen this in a pro game.
You just completely ignore the fact that zerg has mutalisks. Also, while it is common for zerg to neglect air upgrades, it is also highly important that they don't. As zerg, you should be getting flyer carapace upgrades. It is so much more important than air damage.
I can see a player going muta corruptor queen and hydra. The hydra will be the initial defense for the air, along with queens, but as you scout the + air upgrades and more air coming out, pumping out mutalisks and corruptors and getting armor upgrades, you can defend and have some actual map control, unlike if you made just queens and hydra, which are terrible for map control. Defensive mutas seem counter-intuitive but that is what I'm getting at.
Also, against carriers, mutalisks and corruptors do so much better when they have upgraded armor. One of the best targets when protoss is going air is to take out their cyber core so you can stay ahead in upgrades. With enough queens you can keep more of your units alive with transfuse as well, so it all works well together. Hydra just don't feel good enough, although you will want a handful of them as they help the composition and early defense, but massing them might be a bad idea.
I can see this strategy working if you are doing a buttload of damage because the Zerg is completely unprepared for your air timing.
Lets say your Zerg player is very bad at scouting, he will have a dozen roaches with speed/burrow almost finished upgrading and maybe a Hydralisk Den on the way. You'd have to heavily cannon up to fend off my burrow roach attack. During this time, your lack of a ground force you to your front door. Definitely not harassing the Zerg, leaving me time to prepare for your harass after you've held off my attack.
On March 18 2011 14:45 P00RKID wrote: You just completely ignore the fact that zerg has mutalisks. Also, while it is common for zerg to neglect air upgrades, it is also highly important that they don't. As zerg, you should be getting flyer carapace upgrades. It is so much more important than air damage.
I can see a player going muta corruptor queen and hydra. The hydra will be the initial defense for the air, along with queens, but as you scout the + air upgrades and more air coming out, pumping out mutalisks and corruptors and getting armor upgrades, you can defend and have some actual map control, unlike if you made just queens and hydra, which are terrible for map control. Defensive mutas seem counter-intuitive but that is what I'm getting at.
Also, against carriers, mutalisks and corruptors do so much better when they have upgraded armor. One of the best targets when protoss is going air is to take out their cyber core so you can stay ahead in upgrades. With enough queens you can keep more of your units alive with transfuse as well, so it all works well together. Hydra just don't feel good enough, although you will want a handful of them as they help the composition and early defense, but massing them might be a bad idea.
At least the way I'm doing it. If you go Hydra, you need a LOT of Hydra. Small groups of Hydra get picked off too easily with a constantly growing Phoenix ball, if you commit too much then you wont really have the money to make a Corruptor Muta/Ball that will scare the Protoss, and most likely he will have already switched to Voidray production then. I power upgrades off two cybers and I start early so I always have the lead. When Carriers come out, Muta/Corruptor goes from ok to awful so fast.
I don't think it is possible to beat a maxed out army of Voidray/Carrier, Zerg might just have to be very aggressive in either keeping the Phoenix count low enough to stop them going Voidrays and Carriers or just hammer him with early Hydra/RoachLing/Hydraling attacks
On March 18 2011 14:45 P00RKID wrote: You just completely ignore the fact that zerg has mutalisks. Also, while it is common for zerg to neglect air upgrades, it is also highly important that they don't. As zerg, you should be getting flyer carapace upgrades. It is so much more important than air damage.
I can see a player going muta corruptor queen and hydra. The hydra will be the initial defense for the air, along with queens, but as you scout the + air upgrades and more air coming out, pumping out mutalisks and corruptors and getting armor upgrades, you can defend and have some actual map control, unlike if you made just queens and hydra, which are terrible for map control. Defensive mutas seem counter-intuitive but that is what I'm getting at.
Also, against carriers, mutalisks and corruptors do so much better when they have upgraded armor. One of the best targets when protoss is going air is to take out their cyber core so you can stay ahead in upgrades. With enough queens you can keep more of your units alive with transfuse as well, so it all works well together. Hydra just don't feel good enough, although you will want a handful of them as they help the composition and early defense, but massing them might be a bad idea.
If I see mutalisks, Ijust continuously make phoenix and crush his mutalisk force, my Phoenix will be 1/1 and I can outproduce zerg in the air battle because of chronoboost and how fast phoenix build. Even if you were to get an amount of mutalisks that could beat phoenix in a straight on fight, it would mean your overall army would lose to the gateway ball + phoenix.
Also very few zergs upgrade carapace and most only get +1 or +2 flyer attack. Although the defensive muta/corrupter play might work, although idk how it would fare vs a good amount of stalkers + a guardian shield or 2. I do think that Defensive muta/corrupter could work, although if I saw that I would prolly tech to HT.
On March 18 2011 14:48 zJayy962 wrote: I can see this strategy working if you are doing a buttload of damage because the Zerg is completely unprepared for your air timing.
Lets say your Zerg player is very bad at scouting, he will have a dozen roaches with speed/burrow almost finished upgrading and maybe a Hydralisk Den on the way. You'd have to heavily cannon up to fend off my burrow roach attack. During this time, your lack of a ground force you to your front door. Definitely not harassing the Zerg, leaving me time to prepare for your harass after you've held off my attack.
2 canons, + ff's along with a voidray or 2 will hold against roaches always and I'll take no damage, since you won't have burrow movement you can't push against my canons, and when you go to retreat the phoenix can just come and pick up the trailing 5-6 roaches and it's free kills. Or when you go to bust I can pick up half your roaches and clean up easily.
I play zerg and I found protoss using this strategy on Shakuras Plateau a lot. I learned a few things.
A) If they don't have any phoenix with their carriers, A good ball of muta-corruptor rapes them. Corruptors focus fire/corruption the carriers, mutalisks a-move and fight the interceptors (mutalisks destroy interceptors).
B) Neural Parasite. If I have more infestors than you have carriers and void rays, I win, especially if you make a mothership because I will make that baby mine. Fungal growth also does funny things to phoenix and to interceptors.
C) Phoenix Harass isn't really that annoying in the early game, I skip hydras and go straight to corruptors usually. So by making Phoenix you already made me build the counter to your endgame.
D) Also, by the sounds of things you skip robo bay and don't get any detection, so I would likely use burrowed units to harass you as much as I could. In fact if I scout a fleet beacon, I might just max with roaches and do a 300-food push on you.
That's how I've reacted to carrier builds the times i've encountered them. This might be really strong on a map which ends up being close by air but even then, Carriers really need a "critical mass" before they are scary.
STOP THEORYCRAFTING AGAINST GOOD STRATEGIES YOU FOOLS. most of you are the reason every protoss stays with the super safe super lame super powerful colossus gateway comp. doesn't anyone want starcraft 2 to evolve into more than just lame a move colossus push?
On March 18 2011 15:30 darkscream wrote: I play zerg and I found protoss using this strategy on Shakuras Plateau a lot. I learned a few things.
A) If they don't have any phoenix with their carriers, A good ball of muta-corruptor rapes them. Corruptors focus fire/corruption the carriers, mutalisks a-move and fight the interceptors (mutalisks destroy interceptors).
B) Neural Parasite. If I have more infestors than you have carriers and void rays, I win, especially if you make a mothership because I will make that baby mine. Fungal growth also does funny things to phoenix and to interceptors.
C) Phoenix Harass isn't really that annoying in the early game, I skip hydras and go straight to corruptors usually. So by making Phoenix you already made me build the counter to your endgame.
D) Also, by the sounds of things you skip robo bay and don't get any detection, so I would likely use burrowed units to harass you as much as I could. In fact if I scout a fleet beacon, I might just max with roaches and do a 300-food push on you.
That's how I've reacted to carrier builds the times i've encountered them. This might be really strong on a map which ends up being close by air but even then, Carriers really need a "critical mass" before they are scary.
I don't necessarily "skip" my robo, I just get it late while relying on canons to detect since I'm not really "attacking" XD and i've been trying to figure out how to fit it in earlier, also I wouldn't even tech to fleet beacon vs muta, I'd go for storm while massing phoenix, Phoenix/gateway push seems hard for a zerg going mutas to stop, and if you counter my base with mutas I'll be able to use phoenix + canons to win that fight.
Infesters however would be interesting, haven't had them used vs me yet effectively so not sure on that :D
On March 18 2011 15:38 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: STOP THEORYCRAFTING AGAINST GOOD STRATEGIES YOU FOOLS. most of you are the reason every protoss stays with the super safe super lame super powerful colossus gateway comp. doesn't anyone want starcraft 2 to evolve into more than just lame a move colossus push?
I enjoy this type of discussion as it helps me think of ways to improve my build. That's the reason I made this thread.
On March 18 2011 15:38 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: STOP THEORYCRAFTING AGAINST GOOD STRATEGIES YOU FOOLS. most of you are the reason every protoss stays with the super safe super lame super powerful colossus gateway comp. doesn't anyone want starcraft 2 to evolve into more than just lame a move colossus push?
I was just thinking about how "macro" SC2 games feel a lot like what me and my brother did with Lego as kids. We'd spend 15 minutes making the toughest Lego Cars we could possibly manage with "strategic elements" like "It's a fucking brick because bricks don't break" or "I put a big spear thing on the front to smash his car more" and then we'd smash those cars together as hard as we could, rebuild, and repeat.
This in mind, I recently started cutting holes in the metaphorical kitchen floor so his car ends up in the basement. Making lego brick cars every game, though effective, got boring. Flying lego cars, on the other hand, are fucking sweet.
Props to OP for making flying lego cars. You're a gentleman and a scientist.
On March 18 2011 15:30 darkscream wrote: I play zerg and I found protoss using this strategy on Shakuras Plateau a lot. I learned a few things.
A) If they don't have any phoenix with their carriers, A good ball of muta-corruptor rapes them. Corruptors focus fire/corruption the carriers, mutalisks a-move and fight the interceptors (mutalisks destroy interceptors).
B) Neural Parasite. If I have more infestors than you have carriers and void rays, I win, especially if you make a mothership because I will make that baby mine. Fungal growth also does funny things to phoenix and to interceptors.
C) Phoenix Harass isn't really that annoying in the early game, I skip hydras and go straight to corruptors usually. So by making Phoenix you already made me build the counter to your endgame.
D) Also, by the sounds of things you skip robo bay and don't get any detection, so I would likely use burrowed units to harass you as much as I could. In fact if I scout a fleet beacon, I might just max with roaches and do a 300-food push on you.
That's how I've reacted to carrier builds the times i've encountered them. This might be really strong on a map which ends up being close by air but even then, Carriers really need a "critical mass" before they are scary.
A) Voidray/Carrier beats muta/Corruptor. Carriers and Voidrays have realtively high hitpoints with crazy damage output, they just start killing off Muta/Corruptors at an amazing rate and the battle starts to tip in their favor exponentially.
Corruptors/Muta have a tendency to attack interceptors too, which also abosrd a lot of the bounce damage.
B) Don't think this is a very good stratergy at all. When you get Carriers out you can snipe infestors. You don't want to to neural Carriers, because of interceptors dieing and how interceptors work, their damage is going to be split up, it is much wiser to target Charged Voidrays and then use them to kill Carriers
C) You would think that, but if you didn't go blind spire then you will be waiting a while on the Corruptors, and the Phoenix count can easily get into the 10+ range at that point, spore crawlers aren't going to stop them decimating your drone line, after that, even if you do kill the Phoenixes the Protoss is probably so far a head
D) Robo goes down well before the fleet beacon, at least for me it does. I get a fairly early obs to try and deny Tumors.
"300 Food" Roach pushes IMO don't work too well. A) You will lose every drone doing so B) Voidrays + a TON of Cannons + Force fields will make quick work of it :S
On March 18 2011 15:38 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: STOP THEORYCRAFTING AGAINST GOOD STRATEGIES YOU FOOLS. most of you are the reason every protoss stays with the super safe super lame super powerful colossus gateway comp. doesn't anyone want starcraft 2 to evolve into more than just lame a move colossus push?
I was just thinking about how "macro" SC2 games feel a lot like what me and my brother did with Lego as kids. We'd spend 15 minutes making the toughest Lego Cars we could possibly manage with "strategic elements" like "It's a fucking brick because bricks don't break" or "I put a big spear thing on the front to smash his car more" and then we'd smash those cars together as hard as we could, rebuild, and repeat.
This in mind, I recently started cutting holes in the metaphorical kitchen floor so his car ends up in the basement. Making lego brick cars every game, though effective, got boring. Flying lego cars, on the other hand, are fucking sweet.
Props to OP for making flying lego cars. You're a gentleman and a scientist.
exactly. i dont want this to turn into BW where there was like only a few unit comps that worked against each race, so boring, so un original and no one has any chance to make up their own strategy because certain compositions crush everything you put in their path. might as well make 15 cannons and mass void rays off 1 base (exageration, but seriously)
I'm not pro or anything, but this kind of air play totally messes me up. For one thing, it is hard to know if they're really going to keep up air production all game long or switch to collosi because its so hard to scout someone's main when phoenix and other air are on the map. People in this thread say mutas are better, but that's only if the toss stops making phoenix at some point. I've beaten stargate before by outmacroing somebody with mutas, but I've also been outproduced with phoenixes and lost. It's a really smart strategy that forces zerg to do things they don't really want to do, like make the terrible hydralisks and stop using lings. I personally try to mass ling and mutas when I play, but I can't do that AT ALL against this style. The roach/hydra push people have mentioned sounds like the best answer, but i'd like to hear from some toss players what they think my best option, as zerg, would be against this.
I hate when people come into a thread like this and say "*insert strategy here* would totally own this." Every strategy can be countered by something. Good ones like this throw a standard zerg way off his game and force him to react perfectly to win. That statement can be said about ANY standard strategy.
I don't necessarily "skip" my robo, I just get it late while relying on canons to detect since I'm not really "attacking" XD and i've been trying to figure out how to fit it in earlier, also I wouldn't even tech to fleet beacon vs muta, I'd go for storm while massing phoenix, Phoenix/gateway push seems hard for a zerg going mutas to stop, and if you counter my base with mutas I'll be able to use phoenix + canons to win that fight
I can say from many terrible firsthand experiences that it isn't just hard to stop, it is impossible to stop if you go mutas.
Last 2 protoss that tried to mass air against me found out that they cant hold air dominance vs corruptors. Corruptors are hands down the counter to this type of play. Mutas are only slightly better vs void rays then corrruptors are, and if they just start pumping Phoenix there really not the answer. Any good zerg can tell you that you need corrutpros vs protoss, even if there going double stargate void rays. Corruptors are barely not cost efficient vs void rays, you need a 2:1 ratio to kill a void ray, which is 300/200/4 vs 250/150/3. And there more massable, and the zerg should have a better econ then you. As long as zerg keeps 1 base up vs you, which he should with such a tech heavy air strat, he will be able to outmass you and trade resources with corruptors such that you will never reach the critical mass of air units you need to win.
I really like the idea of this strategy. I think it is somewhat difficult to accomplish due to the amount of micro required and unfortunately I don't think I could use it effectively at my own skill level effectively (low to mid diamond). Something I am curious about is your response to a ling baneling composition and if you have played against that yet. While he is obviously not going to have much to deal with your phoenix, and void rays, I am wondering if you are able to hold off an attack against your natural even with cannons and sim city somewhere between around 10-12 min. Or perhaps they just don't attack because they are too worried about losing drones?
On March 18 2011 16:13 Amandil wrote: And [corruptors are] more massable, and the zerg should have a better econ then you. As long as zerg keeps 1 base up vs you, which he should with such a tech heavy air strat, he will be able to outmass you and trade resources with corruptors such that you will never reach the critical mass of air units you need to win.
I think you bring up a good point, but I think that his strategy relies on economic damage and preventing expansions. One of his key objectives is to kill probes with phoenix and prevent a third expansion from zerg, giving him more time to mass voidrays and carriers. I agree corruptors is the correct response, but I think if this strategy is performed correctly its still going to be hard for zerg to win.
I appreciate this strategy as well, particularly since it creates a new midgame transition out of an old, familiar build. Anything that makes it harder for Zerg to blind-counter a 3-gate-sentry expand is good by me-- I recently played a Zerg that spotted my sentries dropped double evo chambers and started researching all the roach upgrades while having 6 lings (total attack units) on the map, just because he was so confident I wasn't going to attack before I had at least 3 Colossi up, a la iNControl. Similarly, I've had Zergs insta-expand to a 3rd after spotting my high sentry count and Nexus going up. Builds like this will make decisions like that much tougher for a Zerg to make without perfect scouting information-- because hey, I cold always be going for carriers.
Props to the OP; I remember a lot of people scoffing at iEchoic's Hellion/Banshee build at first, but it came to carve out its own niche in the metagame. I hope this build will do the same, even if it doesn't become a PvZ standard.
On March 18 2011 16:19 Basileus wrote: I really like the idea of this strategy. I think it is somewhat difficult to accomplish due to the amount of micro required and unfortunately I don't think I could use it effectively at my own skill level effectively (low to mid diamond). Something I am curious about is your response to a ling baneling composition and if you have played against that yet. While he is obviously not going to have much to deal with your phoenix, and void rays, I am wondering if you are able to hold off an attack against your natural even with cannons and sim city somewhere between around 10-12 min. Or perhaps they just don't attack because they are too worried about losing drones?
Please keep us updated
I'm a 3000 point diamond player if that helps put my skill in perspective, you should give it a try, you shouldn't not try a strategy because you feel you can't execute it, practice practice practice
I haven't faced mass ling baneling, but in theory when i scout it with my 4-5 phoenix i immediately pull my voidray back and start pumping voidrays from my 2 stargates, then with proper ff's + canons + voids I should be able to hold and then just win on the counter attack, plus i'll be able to kill a ton of drones with my 4-5 phoenix.
On March 18 2011 15:38 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: STOP THEORYCRAFTING AGAINST GOOD STRATEGIES YOU FOOLS. most of you are the reason every protoss stays with the super safe super lame super powerful colossus gateway comp. doesn't anyone want starcraft 2 to evolve into more than just lame a move colossus push?
I was just thinking about how "macro" SC2 games feel a lot like what me and my brother did with Lego as kids. We'd spend 15 minutes making the toughest Lego Cars we could possibly manage with "strategic elements" like "It's a fucking brick because bricks don't break" or "I put a big spear thing on the front to smash his car more" and then we'd smash those cars together as hard as we could, rebuild, and repeat.
This in mind, I recently started cutting holes in the metaphorical kitchen floor so his car ends up in the basement. Making lego brick cars every game, though effective, got boring. Flying lego cars, on the other hand, are fucking sweet.
Props to OP for making flying lego cars. You're a gentleman and a scientist.
Thanks! <3
On March 18 2011 16:13 Amandil wrote: Last 2 protoss that tried to mass air against me found out that they cant hold air dominance vs corruptors. Corruptors are hands down the counter to this type of play. Mutas are only slightly better vs void rays then corrruptors are, and if they just start pumping Phoenix there really not the answer. Any good zerg can tell you that you need corrutpros vs protoss, even if there going double stargate void rays. Corruptors are barely not cost efficient vs void rays, you need a 2:1 ratio to kill a void ray, which is 300/200/4 vs 250/150/3. And there more massable, and the zerg should have a better econ then you. As long as zerg keeps 1 base up vs you, which he should with such a tech heavy air strat, he will be able to outmass you and trade resources with corruptors such that you will never reach the critical mass of air units you need to win.
Unless you overly drone you won't have a better economy, phoenix picking up your queens and drones while just ignoring your slow corrupters will make sure of that, plus I will be denying a 3rd base with my void ray and denying 4th and 5th bases with DT's. Also, every spore/spine that goes up because of DT's and phoenix kind of add up as economic damage.
Also here's a catch, when you just mass corrupters like that I can just stop making stargate units and just add gateways and just walk under your useless corrupters.
On March 18 2011 16:13 Amandil wrote: And [corruptors are] more massable, and the zerg should have a better econ then you. As long as zerg keeps 1 base up vs you, which he should with such a tech heavy air strat, he will be able to outmass you and trade resources with corruptors such that you will never reach the critical mass of air units you need to win.
I think you bring up a good point, but I think that his strategy relies on economic damage and preventing expansions. One of his key objectives is to kill probes with phoenix and prevent a third expansion from zerg, giving him more time to mass voidrays and carriers. I agree corruptors is the correct response, but I think if this strategy is performed correctly its still going to be hard for zerg to win.
You are correct, ideally you deny the 3rd from the zerg and then you'd take your 3rd before or at the same time as zerg is retaking their 3rd. From there you have DT's patroling would be 4th base spots from zerg and going to kill drones, while phoenix also can go and pickup queens, drones and kill overlords.
On March 18 2011 16:41 Phanekim wrote: it was fun to try to do carrier builds in bw. carriers in sc2 are wierd....they are mad strong but its almost impossible to get to them.
Well this build is meant to keep zerg in their base and on even bases, if you accomplish that, or if you keep an even economy with the zerg then carriers aren't a problem to get.
On March 18 2011 16:28 Snaphoo wrote: I appreciate this strategy as well, particularly since it creates a new midgame transition out of an old, familiar build. Anything that makes it harder for Zerg to blind-counter a 3-gate-sentry expand is good by me-- I recently played a Zerg that spotted my sentries dropped double evo chambers and started researching all the roach upgrades while having 6 lings (total attack units) on the map, just because he was so confident I wasn't going to attack before I had at least 3 Colossi up, a la iNControl. Similarly, I've had Zergs insta-expand to a 3rd after spotting my high sentry count and Nexus going up. Builds like this will make decisions like that much tougher for a Zerg to make without perfect scouting information-- because hey, I cold always be going for carriers.
Props to the OP; I remember a lot of people scoffing at iEchoic's Hellion/Banshee build at first, but it came to carve out its own niche in the metagame. I hope this build will do the same, even if it doesn't become a PvZ standard.
That thinking is exactly what inspired this build, it takes a super safe and standard strategy and creates another path to go down. Echo is actually one of my good friends from a different game, we were on the same team :D
In theorycrafting the strengths of this build and it's weaknesses, IMO the people in this thread have to stop theorycrafting unit compositions, and remember that there's timings involved.
Sure, mass voidray/carrier is strong... If I could get 3/3 hydra queen infester corrupter ultralisk, baneling I'd probably roll you too.
It's the getting there that bothers me.
The "deny his third and take your own" line killed it for me. If toss takes a 3rd, it's basically gg anyways, esp if you let toss tech and get a third.
My question is how yo plan on teching to carriers and DTs while having a substantial ground army to hold off a zerg who throws just as much money at killing you as you do in saturating your expansion and teching to tier 3 in two completely perpendicular tech paths. The answer is that you don't rush for it, but you already have ended up in a comfortable enough position where you can get to it; but by no means is getting to it a means to an end.
If the zerg never attacks, or is just held down so much by the phoenix play that you basically won with phoenix, how does that let the carrier even enter the picture? Basically if you pull off the prerequisites for this build, you've already won, and carrier's just a spice to the mix.
If the zerg doesn't scout, and lets you get to tier 3 AND get even bases, why do we even need to speculate on a unit composition; you've already won.
Same thing for Zerg, if they get to tier 3 And get an economy lead... I'd say it's safe to say they're in a pretty good position.
There's SO much money being thrown at tech here, I'd say that you're very fragile, as much as you'd like to tote the cannons that keep you alive, you're short on forcefield, and a well-timed baneling/roach/queen all-in or drop would probably kill you. Not that that's popular right now, but it's something I've been working on, and I've found decent success with it. (also frustrated how much you under-estimated well-controlled queens throughout your post)
What would you do to react to a roach/queen drop in your main, with re-enforcements of roach/ling at your front? Phoenix don't do didley squat to roaches; they can lift them, but it takes forever to kill one. Voidrays will definitely help you defend, but you'll still lose the ground war most-likely; also queens and voidrays are about on-par in terms of combat efficiency against eachother. (exception being that queens build faster and are substantially cheaper)
The phoenix opening's strong, no matter what you tech to; logically if you stick to 1 tech path and you have good synergy with what you invest in, coming from a position of strength, is it any wonder that you win games?
not bad man but honestly those zergys kinda sucked, none of em even scouted ur base after the intial scout, no saced ovys nothing
also jello had u beat but after that huge engagement he just sat there with his maxed army and let u rebuild, hes the only one that was pretty ok the other 2 had like 30 probes on 3 bases, toss should almost never out drone zerg. Also id like to see how this would work against some nydus/drop plays from zerg, ill usually nydus a protoss and when they send their entire army have like 20-30 lings go take out and expo and a bunch of probes.
Most zergs will throw down 2 spore crawlers and get their hatches building an extra queen the SECOND they see a stargate or even a phoenix if theyre that late. Id like to see how this would work against some other players.
On March 18 2011 17:28 DeCiBle wrote: In theorycrafting the strengths of this build and it's weaknesses, IMO the people in this thread have to stop theorycrafting unit compositions, and remember that there's timings involved.
Sure, mass voidray/carrier is strong... If I could get 3/3 hydra queen infester corrupter ultralisk, baneling I'd probably roll you too.
It's the getting there that bothers me.
The "deny his third and take your own" line killed it for me. If toss takes a 3rd, it's basically gg anyways, esp if you let toss tech and get a third.
My question is how yo plan on teching to carriers and DTs while having a substantial ground army to hold off a zerg who throws just as much money at killing you as you do in saturating your expansion and teching to tier 3 in two completely perpendicular tech paths. The answer is that you don't rush for it, but you already have ended up in a comfortable enough position where you can get to it; but by no means is getting to it a means to an end.
If the zerg never attacks, or is just held down so much by the phoenix play that you basically won with phoenix, how does that let the carrier even enter the picture? Basically if you pull off the prerequisites for this build, you've already won, and carrier's just a spice to the mix.
If the zerg doesn't scout, and lets you get to tier 3 AND get even bases, why do we even need to speculate on a unit composition; you've already won.
Same thing for Zerg, if they get to tier 3 And get an economy lead... I'd say it's safe to say they're in a pretty good position.
There's SO much money being thrown at tech here, I'd say that you're very fragile, as much as you'd like to tote the cannons that keep you alive, you're short on forcefield, and a well-timed baneling/roach/queen all-in or drop would probably kill you. Not that that's popular right now, but it's something I've been working on, and I've found decent success with it. (also frustrated how much you under-estimated well-controlled queens throughout your post)
What would you do to react to a roach/queen drop in your main, with re-enforcements of roach/ling at your front? Phoenix don't do didley squat to roaches; they can lift them, but it takes forever to kill one. Voidrays will definitely help you defend, but you'll still lose the ground war most-likely; also queens and voidrays are about on-par in terms of combat efficiency against eachother. (exception being that queens build faster and are substantially cheaper)
The phoenix opening's strong, no matter what you tech to; logically if you stick to 1 tech path and you have good synergy with what you invest in, coming from a position of strength, is it any wonder that you win games?
It's not a fast tech to carriers, you get your fleet beacon and dark shrine when your 3rd is saturated, and DT's are easily accessible since you get a twilight council to further your upgrades. Also, it's not like it's easy for zerg to scout with phoenix controlling the map, which is one of the strengths of this build.
Well controlled queens are good and all but against 6-10 phoenix it doesn't matter how well you can control them if i just pick them up. I do feel like this build is weak to all in type of plays since you cut some of the sentrys, and I guess I'd just have to experience those all-ins to see how I would react. Against the all in you described, wouldn't it be obvious what your intention is if i see a clump of overlords crossing the map? Giving my phoenix ample time to kill a couple of those overlords. Voidrays would clean that push up, phoenix can pick up the queens and then there's no anti air. You'd do some good damage probably but it sounds like a super all in strategy so the counter push would win the game I believe. But I'm not 100% sure.
On March 18 2011 17:35 pyth0n wrote: not bad man but honestly those zergys kinda sucked, none of em even scouted ur base after the intial scout, no saced ovys nothing
also jello had u beat but after that huge engagement he just sat there with his maxed army and let u rebuild, hes the only one that was pretty ok the other 2 had like 30 probes on 3 bases, toss should almost never out drone zerg. Also id like to see how this would work against some nydus/drop plays from zerg, ill usually nydus a protoss and when they send their entire army have like 20-30 lings go take out and expo and a bunch of probes.
Most zergs will throw down 2 spore crawlers and get their hatches building an extra queen the SECOND they see a stargate or even a phoenix if theyre that late. Id like to see how this would work against some other players.
Well they were the same skill level as me matchmaking wise, so that's why I'm hoping some higher level players will try this out.
Counter play can be quite effective, but without 1 button syndrome it's quite easy to defend ling attacks with the voids and cannons while sending the gateway units to deal with the nydus.
I would have more replays, but honestly I just have had those 3 PvZ's since I came up with this build lol, been a lot of PvP's lately.
Currently im trying out to tech directly to carriers after the phoenix harass - of course only if the zerg transitions into hydras. In small numbers, carriers own hydras hardcore and a lot of zergs push with their hydras after they fend off the phoenix. From the cost point of view and the time needed to build them there isnt a big difference for the first two carriers and the first two colossus on the field after a double stargate opening:
After that carrier are more expensive of course. But two carriers can cause a lot of havok that early in the game and give you time to transition into something else.
On March 18 2011 17:28 DeCiBle wrote: In theorycrafting the strengths of this build and it's weaknesses, IMO the people in this thread have to stop theorycrafting unit compositions, and remember that there's timings involved.
Sure, mass voidray/carrier is strong... If I could get 3/3 hydra queen infester corrupter ultralisk, baneling I'd probably roll you too.
It's the getting there that bothers me.
The "deny his third and take your own" line killed it for me. If toss takes a 3rd, it's basically gg anyways, esp if you let toss tech and get a third.
My question is how yo plan on teching to carriers and DTs while having a substantial ground army to hold off a zerg who throws just as much money at killing you as you do in saturating your expansion and teching to tier 3 in two completely perpendicular tech paths. The answer is that you don't rush for it, but you already have ended up in a comfortable enough position where you can get to it; but by no means is getting to it a means to an end.
If the zerg never attacks, or is just held down so much by the phoenix play that you basically won with phoenix, how does that let the carrier even enter the picture? Basically if you pull off the prerequisites for this build, you've already won, and carrier's just a spice to the mix.
If the zerg doesn't scout, and lets you get to tier 3 AND get even bases, why do we even need to speculate on a unit composition; you've already won.
Same thing for Zerg, if they get to tier 3 And get an economy lead... I'd say it's safe to say they're in a pretty good position.
There's SO much money being thrown at tech here, I'd say that you're very fragile, as much as you'd like to tote the cannons that keep you alive, you're short on forcefield, and a well-timed baneling/roach/queen all-in or drop would probably kill you. Not that that's popular right now, but it's something I've been working on, and I've found decent success with it. (also frustrated how much you under-estimated well-controlled queens throughout your post)
What would you do to react to a roach/queen drop in your main, with re-enforcements of roach/ling at your front? Phoenix don't do didley squat to roaches; they can lift them, but it takes forever to kill one. Voidrays will definitely help you defend, but you'll still lose the ground war most-likely; also queens and voidrays are about on-par in terms of combat efficiency against eachother. (exception being that queens build faster and are substantially cheaper)
The phoenix opening's strong, no matter what you tech to; logically if you stick to 1 tech path and you have good synergy with what you invest in, coming from a position of strength, is it any wonder that you win games?
It's not a fast tech to carriers, you get your fleet beacon and dark shrine when your 3rd is saturated, and DT's are easily accessible since you get a twilight council to further your upgrades. Also, it's not like it's easy for zerg to scout with phoenix controlling the map, which is one of the strengths of this build.
Well controlled queens are good and all but against 6-10 phoenix it doesn't matter how well you can control them if i just pick them up. I do feel like this build is weak to all in type of plays since you cut some of the sentrys, and I guess I'd just have to experience those all-ins to see how I would react. Against the all in you described, wouldn't it be obvious what your intention is if i see a clump of overlords crossing the map? Giving my phoenix ample time to kill a couple of those overlords. Voidrays would clean that push up, phoenix can pick up the queens and then there's no anti air. You'd do some good damage probably but it sounds like a super all in strategy so the counter push would win the game I believe. But I'm not 100% sure.
What's frustrating is the over-confidence and single-mindedness of this.
Queens don't instantly die when you pick them up; for every ling you clean off of a xel naga tower or pluck from out front your base, you just lost a graviton beam (i.e. - I just saved a drone's life); and how do you plan on having a sufficient ground army, cannon coverage, 5-6 phoenix, and a void ray by the time I have overlord speed and drop, along with a handful of roaches?
There's no counter push when I snipe all the tech in your main. Also: I bring ALL my overlords and have them spread creep. Your phoenix might pick off 1, maybe 2, but that just brings an element of chance: Some are empty decoys.
The point isn't to end the game there; it's to reset your tech while I maintain an economic equilibrium with you; potentially crippling you if I clean up your ground forces without too many losses. (1 voidray may very well be able to kill ...mmm let's say 12 roaches?... but they'll do their fair share of damage and supply blockage before they die.)
My approach to ZvP's really aggressive though, so if you hit tier 3 at all vs me, it was gg a LONG time ago.
The interceptors really don't mess up targeting AI in SC2. They do absorb some shots that would otherwise preferably be directed against the carrier, but killing interceptors is a lot easier in this game than in BW and is actually a somewhat viable tactic for dealing with carriers.
As to the overall viability of this strategy, I will agree that it does seem like a solid plan, however, my key problem with it is that the carriers don't actually appear in the game until you have already taken your third and denied the Zerg a third or at least denied the Zerg a fourth. This is a position of strength for a Protoss player vs a Zerg, and while Carriers may be a transition you could make work, its pretty hard to make the argument that they'd be outright better than a Colossus transition. Colossus/Stalker armies are just so good that its hard to justify using any other strategy unless your primary goal is to just "not go colossus" rather than actually using the best plan available.
On March 18 2011 17:46 moonylo wrote: Currently im trying out to tech directly to carriers after the phoenix harass - of course only if the zerg transitions into hydras. In small numbers, carriers own hydras hardcore and a lot of zergs push with their hydras after they fend off the phoenix. From the cost point of view and the time needed to build them there isnt a big difference for the first two carriers and the first two colossus on the field after a double stargate opening:
After that carrier are more expensive of course. But two carriers can cause a lot of havok that early in the game and give you time to transition into something else.
Also you should add the cost of the intercepter speed upgrade and the extended thermal lance.
However I feel that getting a couple voidrays and taking a 3rd while defending is smarter than getting carriers that fast since your economy is strong enough to support carriers and constantly using your gateways. But that's not a bad idea, using 2 carriers to defend.
On March 18 2011 17:28 DeCiBle wrote: In theorycrafting the strengths of this build and it's weaknesses, IMO the people in this thread have to stop theorycrafting unit compositions, and remember that there's timings involved.
Sure, mass voidray/carrier is strong... If I could get 3/3 hydra queen infester corrupter ultralisk, baneling I'd probably roll you too.
It's the getting there that bothers me.
The "deny his third and take your own" line killed it for me. If toss takes a 3rd, it's basically gg anyways, esp if you let toss tech and get a third.
My question is how yo plan on teching to carriers and DTs while having a substantial ground army to hold off a zerg who throws just as much money at killing you as you do in saturating your expansion and teching to tier 3 in two completely perpendicular tech paths. The answer is that you don't rush for it, but you already have ended up in a comfortable enough position where you can get to it; but by no means is getting to it a means to an end.
If the zerg never attacks, or is just held down so much by the phoenix play that you basically won with phoenix, how does that let the carrier even enter the picture? Basically if you pull off the prerequisites for this build, you've already won, and carrier's just a spice to the mix.
If the zerg doesn't scout, and lets you get to tier 3 AND get even bases, why do we even need to speculate on a unit composition; you've already won.
Same thing for Zerg, if they get to tier 3 And get an economy lead... I'd say it's safe to say they're in a pretty good position.
There's SO much money being thrown at tech here, I'd say that you're very fragile, as much as you'd like to tote the cannons that keep you alive, you're short on forcefield, and a well-timed baneling/roach/queen all-in or drop would probably kill you. Not that that's popular right now, but it's something I've been working on, and I've found decent success with it. (also frustrated how much you under-estimated well-controlled queens throughout your post)
What would you do to react to a roach/queen drop in your main, with re-enforcements of roach/ling at your front? Phoenix don't do didley squat to roaches; they can lift them, but it takes forever to kill one. Voidrays will definitely help you defend, but you'll still lose the ground war most-likely; also queens and voidrays are about on-par in terms of combat efficiency against eachother. (exception being that queens build faster and are substantially cheaper)
The phoenix opening's strong, no matter what you tech to; logically if you stick to 1 tech path and you have good synergy with what you invest in, coming from a position of strength, is it any wonder that you win games?
It's not a fast tech to carriers, you get your fleet beacon and dark shrine when your 3rd is saturated, and DT's are easily accessible since you get a twilight council to further your upgrades. Also, it's not like it's easy for zerg to scout with phoenix controlling the map, which is one of the strengths of this build.
Well controlled queens are good and all but against 6-10 phoenix it doesn't matter how well you can control them if i just pick them up. I do feel like this build is weak to all in type of plays since you cut some of the sentrys, and I guess I'd just have to experience those all-ins to see how I would react. Against the all in you described, wouldn't it be obvious what your intention is if i see a clump of overlords crossing the map? Giving my phoenix ample time to kill a couple of those overlords. Voidrays would clean that push up, phoenix can pick up the queens and then there's no anti air. You'd do some good damage probably but it sounds like a super all in strategy so the counter push would win the game I believe. But I'm not 100% sure.
What's frustrating is the over-confidence and single-mindedness of this.
Queens don't instantly die when you pick them up; for every ling you clean off of a xel naga tower or pluck from out front your base, you just lost a graviton beam (i.e. - I just saved a drone's life); and how do you plan on having a sufficient ground army, cannon coverage, 5-6 phoenix, and a void ray by the time I have overlord speed and drop, along with a handful of roaches?
There's no counter push when I snipe all the tech in your main. Also: I bring ALL my overlords and have them spread creep. Your phoenix might pick off 1, maybe 2, but that just brings an element of chance: Some are empty decoys.
The point isn't to end the game there; it's to reset your tech while I maintain an economic equilibrium with you; potentially crippling you if I clean up your ground forces without too many losses. (1 voidray may very well be able to kill ...mmm let's say 12 roaches?... but they'll do their fair share of damage and supply blockage before they die.)
My approach to ZvP's really aggressive though, so if you hit tier 3 at all vs me, it was gg a LONG time ago.
5-6 Phoenix kill a queen pretty fast, and I don't go for lings on towers 1st, maybe when i leave your base the 1st time i'll grab em. If you're having overlord speed and drops then I should have atleast 3 voidrays out, also it seems like you're just leaving your base undefended doing that start which means i get free pickings at your drones.
I'm not saying this strategy would beat what you are sugggesting, but in theory it could. Plus if you have 12 roaches my smaller ground army of like 6 zealots, 2-3 stalkers and 4-5 sentrys an 1-3 voidrays can win if i just use my phoenix to pick up 6 of your 12 roaches and negate them from combat.
Great post though defenetly gonna try this. I feel like corruptor might be abit too strong vs carriers for this strat to be effective trough a whole game. I'd imagine you need to transistion pure ground after your carriers get steamrolled. Also, if you dont get any aoe damage, hydras are going to become very powerful against ya aswell. When I do this build, I'll tech to tempelar, blink and charge, get out alot of gateways, and push out after so that i can reinforce quick and take out any corruptor heavy army should my first army lose.
On March 18 2011 17:28 DeCiBle wrote: In theorycrafting the strengths of this build and it's weaknesses, IMO the people in this thread have to stop theorycrafting unit compositions, and remember that there's timings involved.
Sure, mass voidray/carrier is strong... If I could get 3/3 hydra queen infester corrupter ultralisk, baneling I'd probably roll you too.
It's the getting there that bothers me.
The "deny his third and take your own" line killed it for me. If toss takes a 3rd, it's basically gg anyways, esp if you let toss tech and get a third.
My question is how yo plan on teching to carriers and DTs while having a substantial ground army to hold off a zerg who throws just as much money at killing you as you do in saturating your expansion and teching to tier 3 in two completely perpendicular tech paths. The answer is that you don't rush for it, but you already have ended up in a comfortable enough position where you can get to it; but by no means is getting to it a means to an end.
If the zerg never attacks, or is just held down so much by the phoenix play that you basically won with phoenix, how does that let the carrier even enter the picture? Basically if you pull off the prerequisites for this build, you've already won, and carrier's just a spice to the mix.
If the zerg doesn't scout, and lets you get to tier 3 AND get even bases, why do we even need to speculate on a unit composition; you've already won.
Same thing for Zerg, if they get to tier 3 And get an economy lead... I'd say it's safe to say they're in a pretty good position.
There's SO much money being thrown at tech here, I'd say that you're very fragile, as much as you'd like to tote the cannons that keep you alive, you're short on forcefield, and a well-timed baneling/roach/queen all-in or drop would probably kill you. Not that that's popular right now, but it's something I've been working on, and I've found decent success with it. (also frustrated how much you under-estimated well-controlled queens throughout your post)
What would you do to react to a roach/queen drop in your main, with re-enforcements of roach/ling at your front? Phoenix don't do didley squat to roaches; they can lift them, but it takes forever to kill one. Voidrays will definitely help you defend, but you'll still lose the ground war most-likely; also queens and voidrays are about on-par in terms of combat efficiency against eachother. (exception being that queens build faster and are substantially cheaper)
The phoenix opening's strong, no matter what you tech to; logically if you stick to 1 tech path and you have good synergy with what you invest in, coming from a position of strength, is it any wonder that you win games?
It's not a fast tech to carriers, you get your fleet beacon and dark shrine when your 3rd is saturated, and DT's are easily accessible since you get a twilight council to further your upgrades. Also, it's not like it's easy for zerg to scout with phoenix controlling the map, which is one of the strengths of this build.
Well controlled queens are good and all but against 6-10 phoenix it doesn't matter how well you can control them if i just pick them up. I do feel like this build is weak to all in type of plays since you cut some of the sentrys, and I guess I'd just have to experience those all-ins to see how I would react. Against the all in you described, wouldn't it be obvious what your intention is if i see a clump of overlords crossing the map? Giving my phoenix ample time to kill a couple of those overlords. Voidrays would clean that push up, phoenix can pick up the queens and then there's no anti air. You'd do some good damage probably but it sounds like a super all in strategy so the counter push would win the game I believe. But I'm not 100% sure.
What's frustrating is the over-confidence and single-mindedness of this.
Queens don't instantly die when you pick them up; for every ling you clean off of a xel naga tower or pluck from out front your base, you just lost a graviton beam (i.e. - I just saved a drone's life); and how do you plan on having a sufficient ground army, cannon coverage, 5-6 phoenix, and a void ray by the time I have overlord speed and drop, along with a handful of roaches?
There's no counter push when I snipe all the tech in your main. Also: I bring ALL my overlords and have them spread creep. Your phoenix might pick off 1, maybe 2, but that just brings an element of chance: Some are empty decoys.
The point isn't to end the game there; it's to reset your tech while I maintain an economic equilibrium with you; potentially crippling you if I clean up your ground forces without too many losses. (1 voidray may very well be able to kill ...mmm let's say 12 roaches?... but they'll do their fair share of damage and supply blockage before they die.)
My approach to ZvP's really aggressive though, so if you hit tier 3 at all vs me, it was gg a LONG time ago.
5-6 Phoenix kill a queen pretty fast, and I don't go for lings on towers 1st, maybe when i leave your base the 1st time i'll grab em. If you're having overlord speed and drops then I should have atleast 3 voidrays out, also it seems like you're just leaving your base undefended doing that start which means i get free pickings at your drones.
I'm not saying this strategy would beat what you are sugggesting, but in theory it could. Plus if you have 12 roaches my smaller ground army of like 6 zealots, 2-3 stalkers and 4-5 sentrys an 1-3 voidrays can win if i just use my phoenix to pick up 6 of your 12 roaches and negate them from combat.
i agree with decible man, while you have 5-6 phoenix a GOOD zerg will have 4 queens 2 on the way and possibly hydras.
also with 2 of those guys in the replays they take their 2nd even 3rd REALLY late, a lot of good zergs will go 15 hatch the gas then pool even.
If im playing a toss and im not getting 4 gated, im teching to lair and putting a overseer at every base and 1 over my army plus a hydra den and usually a extra queen per base, i dont think ull be sneaking into any bases with a dt that way. on top of that when i dont see a giant army when i poke with my lings, im throwing up a nydus instant.
I feel like it would work better then the usual death ball which is beat with just corruptors, roach and hydra but far from good enough for top level game play
I think the entire point of this thread is trying to argue that phoenix harass can carry you into carrier play vs Zerg. I'm just not sure that's true unless your opponent was one who doesn't know how to react to/is caught completely off guard by Phoenix harass. A korean zerg would just roll you over with ling/roach while you were trying to tech.
On March 18 2011 18:29 darkscream wrote: I think the entire point of this thread is trying to argue that phoenix harass can carry you into carrier play vs Zerg. I'm just not sure that's true unless your opponent was one who doesn't know how to react to/is caught completely off guard by Phoenix harass. A korean zerg would just roll you over with ling/roach while you were trying to tech.
Well, you need to react to your opponent. Imo, you should scout with your first phoenix, and if you see strong 2 base play, get out void rays. 2-3 void rays + canons in range of your probe line to defend lings running past your void rays will deal with ling roach 2 base all in.
It's not a blind build that works against anything, but if you scout you can adapt with it.
I just had a nice game with this build, though I just went for 6 phoenix and then went straight to carriers, because he already had a hydra den up.
This build only worked, because I got a ton of damage done with the phoenix though (after scouting with a hallucinated phoenix.. maybe thats why he was caught offguard). After getting 4 carriers I immediatelly switched to full ground (mainly stalkers, some immortals).
So in my opinion this build only works if you do a significant amount of damage with the phoenix, are not close by ground and get a quick mothership aswell. The fast mothership actually is way more worth than the carriers are though.
I still don't see the point of carriers being better then colossi.. Colossi are cheaper, do way more DPS (if they hit at least 2 units which they will 95% of the time) share upgrades with your ground units and are about as mobile as carriers (i'd rather have more speed and cliffwalking then flying).
Importantly colossi demolish hydra's and die to corruptors while carriers die to corruptors and are only decent against hydra's.
Overall there is just no point in making carriers instead of colossi, you need ground units anyway so focussing entirely on ground with a little air support just makes more sense. The composition still gets countered by mass corruptors...
What entirely makes colossi better then carriers is that you easy into them more easily as well. You can just go 1 robo + 1 bay colossi and be fine vs any hydra pushes, this build however will crumble to a good hydra push (on the third or in the main by drop) because 1 carrier doesn't do as well as 1 colossus vs hydra...
1 stargate into 1 robo colossi > 2 stargate into carriers all the time..
What entirely makes colossi better then carriers is that you easy into them more easily as well. You can just go 1 robo + 1 bay colossi and be fine vs any hydra pushes, this build however will crumble to a good hydra push (on the third or in the main by drop) because 1 carrier doesn't do as well as 1 colossus vs hydra...
1 stargate into 1 robo colossi > 2 stargate into carriers all the time..
If you get Carriers off two base then you are obviously going to lose, you just cant support that. You will also die to Corruptors, you need Voidrays in the mix.
1Stargate 1Robo isn't quite the same as Pheonix, Voidrays and Carriers all share the same upgrades so as you progress, each upgrade you get is worth quite a bit.
With mass Carrier you can also attack with full DPS from a single point, mass Colossus eventually trips over each other and fights very inefficiently because of that, but Carriers can all be stacked onto a single point and attack very efficiently.
I think eventually the most optimum setup would be to include 3/3/3 Colossus into the mix as well, somewhere around 6~ would be the magic number, but this is an alternative and Carrier/Void is MUCH much stronger than Colossus/Voidray end game provided you have the economy to support it.
Engaging a late game 3/3/3 Carrier/Voidray army is very difficult. All your DPS can attack both air and ground with Carriers having great DPS, so if they get cold feet in an engagement then end up taking some serious damage.With Colossus/Voidray, too many of either one can be quite bad for you, it is quite easy to have too little Voidrays and end up with Corruptors taking out all the voids whilst even though your Colossus may have cleaned up the Hydra you are gonna lose them. Carriers don't share that problem, the only thing they need is a good economy.
I don't get why mass upgraded hydras don't counter this.. Add roaches to tank zealots.
I think it will be easier for zerg to deal with this combo than with collosus cause your overall army dps isn't that insane and your hydras won't melt in seconds.
Hydra / corruptor and few roach is best way to fight this build.
On March 18 2011 20:53 Alpina wrote: I don't get why mass upgraded hydras don't counter this.. Add roaches to tank zealots.
I think it will be easier for zerg to deal with this combo than with collosus cause your overall army dps isn't that insane and your hydras won't melt in seconds.
Hydra / corruptor and few roach is best way to fight this build.
Grab a unit tester and try it out for yourself. Match Air upgrade if you want (I'm usually a head in upgrades since I start early and double core). If you think mass hydra counters Carriers then you will be in for a shock
Also, Carrier/Voidray does better vs Corruptor/Hydra than pure Carrier or pure Voidray.
Anyway, I think people are getting the wrong idea with this. I don't think the OP intended (ever) for this type of play to be better than regular Colossus/Gateway or Colossus/Void, just DIFFERENT.
No one has done this before so it isn't as refined as Void/Colossus or Colossus/Gateway. But it isn't so terrible that you will lose every time, it actually works quite decently, maybe the more it is used the quicker Zerg fill find a way to crush it, but until then just have some fun with non-Colossus play that allows you to be aggressive.
On March 18 2011 20:53 Alpina wrote: I don't get why mass upgraded hydras don't counter this.. Add roaches to tank zealots.
I think it will be easier for zerg to deal with this combo than with collosus cause your overall army dps isn't that insane and your hydras won't melt in seconds.
Hydra / corruptor and few roach is best way to fight this build.
The TS should put the responses that are not correct in the OP so people can stop asking the same questions.
Alright, before you read this know i'm only a high gold player so take this with a grain of salt (Hope this is the right figure of speech!).
I love this build, i've been looking for a way to incoorporate pheonix and carrier into my play (zzz deathball) and believe this build is the way to go about doing so. Even if it turns out to be sub-optimal i'll still be using this for the sheer ammount of awesome.
On to the critique, first off i only watched the first game so maybe this completely injustified however, i feel you produce a lot of pheonix for very little gain. Sure you have some mapcontroll but i feel you could easily achieve this with 3-5 pheonix. They will still have to react in the same fashion or you can continuesly snipe 5 probes every 30 second you fly by.
I feel a strong asset of this build, besides the obvious, would be the abillity to keep creepspread to a minimum, is there a way to do this style while have just a single observer + a void ray picking off creeptumors ?
Another thing i notice, is that you research both air and ground armor, even delaying the essential attack upgrades (especially air attack increases void ray and carrier damage by a metric fucktonne.). Wouldn't it be more benificial to drop down a second forge and get 3/3 protoss shields? The upgrade works for both ground and air units, aswell as all those canons you plant down at every expansion. If you later on get to a point where you have 3 attack and the buildings isn't in use, the armor upgrades will buff your units up even more.
Dark Templars seem to be a huge dumb of money if you already see sporecrawlers up, do you really think it's worth getting the tech and trying to harass a player that is already fully sporecrawled up in his mineral lines?
I've seen this build or something close to it a few times on ladder. Carriers are kinda like collosus in that they're weak in low numbers, but a pain to deal with later on. Thing with this build is you won't have an actual army presence for quite some time so its up to Zerg to get like 4 bases and a huge economy going before the carrier ball moves out.
Whenever I've beaten this build its cause I scouted it in time and realized toss wouldn't be pushing any time soon, allowing me to get a 2 base lead.
Whenever I've lost its because toss was diligent with harassing and used the early air units to deny my early 3rd. Its surprisingly hard to expand to a 3rd vs phoenix / void ray openings on most maps because they can be everywhere and you're often spread thin protecting your overlords, drones, queen in natural and main, and your 3rd.
Interesting, i will definitely try this out. Something i would change is skipping the dt's until a bit later, and get a robo for observers instead to snipe a few creep tumors. I feel like some of the harassment dt's do can be accomplished by phoenixes and a couple void rays to snipe the odd hatch and overlord, but this is just from looking at the replay. Will definitely test this out ^^
OP, thank you so much for posting this, I started thinking air vs. zerg again after doing deathball for so long and there you go with this beautiful post.
A few tips and tricks I came up with, augmenting your strategy a touch:
+1 air upgrade means your phoenix are doing 11x2 damage vs light. Larva has 25 hp and 10 armor. See where im going with this? 2 damage per phoenix equals dead larva very very quickly. 13-14 phoenix killing one larva in ~1.1 seconds? 5 - 6 seconds and all that hard work the zerg put in to injecting/macro is gone. Why protoss don't do this already I don't know. I know I am going to do this every game now...
It takes 20 volleys to kill an overlord, ~23 volleys to kill a queen, and about 25 to kill an overseer. I'm thinking going heavy heavy phoenix (like 25 to 30) to one shot the above mentioned units. -One shotting overlords that might be all bundled together in the main is brutal. -One shotting queens completely shuts down Zerg's macro. If there is no other AA around, why not pick up the larva and kill that off too, two at a time? -One shotting overseers not only lowers pop cap but if you have DTs on the field it makes them that much stronger.
25-30 phoenix will completely prevent muta's. This isn't even debatable, it'd be pure suicide. 120hp, light, takes longer to build than a chrono'd phoenix?
Which brings me to a good point, a chronoboosted phoenix comes out in 25 seconds. Thats marine build time. That is insane. to get 30 of them out of two stargates would take a little over 6 minutes, so probably right around the 12-13 minute mark. 30 graviton beams? That shuts down any push the zerg will throw at you. You cannoned your third and they attacked? Lift EVERYTHING in range of cannons and laugh.
Hydra's are light and have 80 hp. lift one, and 4 phoenix each do 20 damage to it. So something like 30 phoenix could instantly snipe 6 hydra's if your micro can handle that.
One last point, OP, instead of getting +1 ground attack right away, get shields +1. Phoenix are all about dat harass and you usually fly off when shields get depleted. +1 to that will increase the potency of harass and applies to both ground and air AND cannons. get +1 attack after that.
I know some of this might be common sense and already known and whatnot, but I want you all to think about how awesome Phoenix really are, especially at that magic number of 25+ I just realized this is sounding like zerg's muta/ling strat. Awesome.
edit: holy shit just realized hallucination can be useful as well. Hallucinate yourself 6-7 extra phoenix, collossi, archons... With no detection, awesome meat shields. With those 6 sentries sitting at 200/200 energy, this is excellent.
I used to play with this style a lot back in the earlier days of SCII... however a very strong 2 base roach hydra push WILL kill you. You'll have 1-2 carriers out at most by this point, and not enough voids to hold on. Carriers simply build too slowly, you can't get them out in time to really make the difference.
In the first replay was really good. Might want to stop more expos thou considering he expanded like 5 times. He had every expo on his side of the map and creeped the place up. Also, i noticed when you were starting the carriers, your gas income was half his and you had idle gases at your gold. With this being a gas heavy build every assimilator is needed.
I played against this style on shakuras plateau once, it was a very long game and the map was almost mined out. I eventually beat his air fleet with an army of pure 3-3 corrupters. Micro was absolutely required or else I'd get chewed up. If I didn't think on my feet and throw up double spire to catch up and hit 3-3 asap, I feel it would have been impossible to stop. Hydras really don't stand up to an upgraded carrier voidray phoenix fleet, they don't have the luxury of stacking all their dps into one space like an air fleet can, and they're too immobile to defend everywhere at once. If the hydra ball splits it will be chewed up.
On March 19 2011 01:23 mamuto wrote: OP, thank you so much for posting this, I started thinking air vs. zerg again after doing deathball for so long and there you go with this beautiful post.
A few tips and tricks I came up with, augmenting your strategy a touch:
+1 air upgrade means your phoenix are doing 11x2 damage vs light. Larva has 25 hp and 10 armor. See where im going with this? 2 damage per phoenix equals dead larva very very quickly. 13-14 phoenix killing one larva in ~1.1 seconds? 5 - 6 seconds and all that hard work the zerg put in to injecting/macro is gone. Why protoss don't do this already I don't know. I know I am going to do this every game now...
It takes 20 volleys to kill an overlord, ~23 volleys to kill a queen, and about 25 to kill an overseer. I'm thinking going heavy heavy phoenix (like 25 to 30) to one shot the above mentioned units. -One shotting overlords that might be all bundled together in the main is brutal. -One shotting queens completely shuts down Zerg's macro. If there is no other AA around, why not pick up the larva and kill that off too, two at a time? -One shotting overseers not only lowers pop cap but if you have DTs on the field it makes them that much stronger.
25-30 phoenix will completely prevent muta's. This isn't even debatable, it'd be pure suicide. 120hp, light, takes longer to build than a chrono'd phoenix?
Which brings me to a good point, a chronoboosted phoenix comes out in 25 seconds. Thats marine build time. That is insane. to get 30 of them out of two stargates would take a little over 6 minutes, so probably right around the 12-13 minute mark. 30 graviton beams? That shuts down any push the zerg will throw at you. You cannoned your third and they attacked? Lift EVERYTHING in range of cannons and laugh.
Hydra's are light and have 80 hp. lift one, and 4 phoenix each do 20 damage to it. So something like 30 phoenix could instantly snipe 6 hydra's if your micro can handle that.
One last point, OP, instead of getting +1 ground attack right away, get shields +1. Phoenix are all about dat harass and you usually fly off when shields get depleted. +1 to that will increase the potency of harass and applies to both ground and air AND cannons. get +1 attack after that.
I know some of this might be common sense and already known and whatnot, but I want you all to think about how awesome Phoenix really are, especially at that magic number of 25+ I just realized this is sounding like zerg's muta/ling strat. Awesome.
edit: holy shit just realized hallucination can be useful as well. Hallucinate yourself 6-7 extra phoenix, collossi, archons... With no detection, awesome meat shields. With those 6 sentries sitting at 200/200 energy, this is excellent.
Why kill larva when there are drones right next to the hatchery collecting minerals?
Hmmm... zerg doesn't have to go hydras. Corruptors are very good against 2 out of the 3 stargate units that you'll be producing. Phoenix and carrier both take double penalties for their attack and thus can never really scale into late game. Coupled with the fact that corruptors have a base of two armor, both units are doing pitiful damage to corruptors.
Also, sling/bling would do well versus whatever your ground unit composition since there wouldn't be many sentries or stalkers, and the only unit that could kill them at a reasonable rate would be carriers.
Hydras is NOT the correct response nor is it forced.
I tried a build very similar to this a few times at around 3000Masters level. It doesnt work very often because if Zerg gets a lot of Hydras, they shoot down the interceptors too quickly. You could go for HTs with Carriers but than you lose your mobility. Warpprism dont work because they die as soon as a corruptor gets into its vision
Anyways, if you play at lower levels were Zergs dont scout your base at proper timings, you can get a lot of wins with builds like that.
I've been tinkering with Phoenix vs Z in my PvZ for a couple weeks now - but the difference is since I force Hydras, I take my third, saturate it and make collosi. Carriers (with a mothership) I make after because those units are unstoppable in big numbers - once you get there. What I'm saying is that this strategy works - it just needs some tweaking.
I didn't know carriers did so well vs Hydras, that I will have to try!
On March 18 2011 18:29 darkscream wrote: I think the entire point of this thread is trying to argue that phoenix harass can carry you into carrier play vs Zerg. I'm just not sure that's true unless your opponent was one who doesn't know how to react to/is caught completely off guard by Phoenix harass. A korean zerg would just roll you over with ling/roach while you were trying to tech.
A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
Also to address the 1st part of your post, the point of this thread is to point out that carriers are a viable end game unit, and that phoenix allow for the passive play of a colossus strategy while giving you something to hamper the zerg with.
Great post though defenetly gonna try this. I feel like corruptor might be abit too strong vs carriers for this strat to be effective trough a whole game. I'd imagine you need to transistion pure ground after your carriers get steamrolled. Also, if you dont get any aoe damage, hydras are going to become very powerful against ya aswell. When I do this build, I'll tech to tempelar, blink and charge, get out alot of gateways, and push out after so that i can reinforce quick and take out any corruptor heavy army should my first army lose.
Hydras are not good vs Carrier/gateway compositions, also corrupters against voidray/carrier actually don't fare that well (you have to test it to see what I mean). I do get charge as fast as I can since it makes my zealots actually be able to do something before evaporating. I do also get blink eventually.
On March 18 2011 17:28 DeCiBle wrote: In theorycrafting the strengths of this build and it's weaknesses, IMO the people in this thread have to stop theorycrafting unit compositions, and remember that there's timings involved.
Sure, mass voidray/carrier is strong... If I could get 3/3 hydra queen infester corrupter ultralisk, baneling I'd probably roll you too.
It's the getting there that bothers me.
The "deny his third and take your own" line killed it for me. If toss takes a 3rd, it's basically gg anyways, esp if you let toss tech and get a third.
My question is how yo plan on teching to carriers and DTs while having a substantial ground army to hold off a zerg who throws just as much money at killing you as you do in saturating your expansion and teching to tier 3 in two completely perpendicular tech paths. The answer is that you don't rush for it, but you already have ended up in a comfortable enough position where you can get to it; but by no means is getting to it a means to an end.
If the zerg never attacks, or is just held down so much by the phoenix play that you basically won with phoenix, how does that let the carrier even enter the picture? Basically if you pull off the prerequisites for this build, you've already won, and carrier's just a spice to the mix.
If the zerg doesn't scout, and lets you get to tier 3 AND get even bases, why do we even need to speculate on a unit composition; you've already won.
Same thing for Zerg, if they get to tier 3 And get an economy lead... I'd say it's safe to say they're in a pretty good position.
There's SO much money being thrown at tech here, I'd say that you're very fragile, as much as you'd like to tote the cannons that keep you alive, you're short on forcefield, and a well-timed baneling/roach/queen all-in or drop would probably kill you. Not that that's popular right now, but it's something I've been working on, and I've found decent success with it. (also frustrated how much you under-estimated well-controlled queens throughout your post)
What would you do to react to a roach/queen drop in your main, with re-enforcements of roach/ling at your front? Phoenix don't do didley squat to roaches; they can lift them, but it takes forever to kill one. Voidrays will definitely help you defend, but you'll still lose the ground war most-likely; also queens and voidrays are about on-par in terms of combat efficiency against eachother. (exception being that queens build faster and are substantially cheaper)
The phoenix opening's strong, no matter what you tech to; logically if you stick to 1 tech path and you have good synergy with what you invest in, coming from a position of strength, is it any wonder that you win games?
It's not a fast tech to carriers, you get your fleet beacon and dark shrine when your 3rd is saturated, and DT's are easily accessible since you get a twilight council to further your upgrades. Also, it's not like it's easy for zerg to scout with phoenix controlling the map, which is one of the strengths of this build.
Well controlled queens are good and all but against 6-10 phoenix it doesn't matter how well you can control them if i just pick them up. I do feel like this build is weak to all in type of plays since you cut some of the sentrys, and I guess I'd just have to experience those all-ins to see how I would react. Against the all in you described, wouldn't it be obvious what your intention is if i see a clump of overlords crossing the map? Giving my phoenix ample time to kill a couple of those overlords. Voidrays would clean that push up, phoenix can pick up the queens and then there's no anti air. You'd do some good damage probably but it sounds like a super all in strategy so the counter push would win the game I believe. But I'm not 100% sure.
What's frustrating is the over-confidence and single-mindedness of this.
Queens don't instantly die when you pick them up; for every ling you clean off of a xel naga tower or pluck from out front your base, you just lost a graviton beam (i.e. - I just saved a drone's life); and how do you plan on having a sufficient ground army, cannon coverage, 5-6 phoenix, and a void ray by the time I have overlord speed and drop, along with a handful of roaches?
There's no counter push when I snipe all the tech in your main. Also: I bring ALL my overlords and have them spread creep. Your phoenix might pick off 1, maybe 2, but that just brings an element of chance: Some are empty decoys.
The point isn't to end the game there; it's to reset your tech while I maintain an economic equilibrium with you; potentially crippling you if I clean up your ground forces without too many losses. (1 voidray may very well be able to kill ...mmm let's say 12 roaches?... but they'll do their fair share of damage and supply blockage before they die.)
My approach to ZvP's really aggressive though, so if you hit tier 3 at all vs me, it was gg a LONG time ago.
5-6 Phoenix kill a queen pretty fast, and I don't go for lings on towers 1st, maybe when i leave your base the 1st time i'll grab em. If you're having overlord speed and drops then I should have atleast 3 voidrays out, also it seems like you're just leaving your base undefended doing that start which means i get free pickings at your drones.
I'm not saying this strategy would beat what you are sugggesting, but in theory it could. Plus if you have 12 roaches my smaller ground army of like 6 zealots, 2-3 stalkers and 4-5 sentrys an 1-3 voidrays can win if i just use my phoenix to pick up 6 of your 12 roaches and negate them from combat.
i agree with decible man, while you have 5-6 phoenix a GOOD zerg will have 4 queens 2 on the way and possibly hydras.
also with 2 of those guys in the replays they take their 2nd even 3rd REALLY late, a lot of good zergs will go 15 hatch the gas then pool even.
If im playing a toss and im not getting 4 gated, im teching to lair and putting a overseer at every base and 1 over my army plus a hydra den and usually a extra queen per base, i dont think ull be sneaking into any bases with a dt that way. on top of that when i dont see a giant army when i poke with my lings, im throwing up a nydus instant.
I feel like it would work better then the usual death ball which is beat with just corruptors, roach and hydra but far from good enough for top level game play
With 5-6 Phoenix i can lift 2 queens at the same time, 4 phoenix shooting a queen will kill it quite fast, and I can just rinse and repeat. Also every spore/spine/extra queen just adds to the harass. I agree some nydus play would be interesting, but it's not an easy build to figure out since it opens exactly like the standard colossus 3 gate expand.
Also I will always pylon block the natural of a zerg if i can, which happens decently on most maps, sometimes it's obviously not going to happen. The DT's are not meant for anything other than to cause panic, i don't usually make more than 4-5 per game.
On March 18 2011 14:45 P00RKID wrote: You just completely ignore the fact that zerg has mutalisks. Also, while it is common for zerg to neglect air upgrades, it is also highly important that they don't. As zerg, you should be getting flyer carapace upgrades. It is so much more important than air damage.
I can see a player going muta corruptor queen and hydra. The hydra will be the initial defense for the air, along with queens, but as you scout the + air upgrades and more air coming out, pumping out mutalisks and corruptors and getting armor upgrades, you can defend and have some actual map control, unlike if you made just queens and hydra, which are terrible for map control. Defensive mutas seem counter-intuitive but that is what I'm getting at.
Also, against carriers, mutalisks and corruptors do so much better when they have upgraded armor. One of the best targets when protoss is going air is to take out their cyber core so you can stay ahead in upgrades. With enough queens you can keep more of your units alive with transfuse as well, so it all works well together. Hydra just don't feel good enough, although you will want a handful of them as they help the composition and early defense, but massing them might be a bad idea.
You completely ignore the fact that protoss has phoenixes.
On March 18 2011 20:53 Alpina wrote: I don't get why mass upgraded hydras don't counter this.. Add roaches to tank zealots.
I think it will be easier for zerg to deal with this combo than with collosus cause your overall army dps isn't that insane and your hydras won't melt in seconds.
Hydra / corruptor and few roach is best way to fight this build.
The TS should put the responses that are not correct in the OP so people can stop asking the same questions.
I just did, thank you for the suggestion.
On March 18 2011 21:01 Falcon_NL wrote: I dont think you can defeat a zergling/baneling/muta composition with this effectively :/
Phoenix and voidrays? What are you going to have that can stop a phoenix/voidray push? After I defend the 1st major attack I just keep warping zealots and sentrys at my base and push with my phoenix and voidrays. In theory that's how I'd defeat that strategy lol
On March 18 2011 19:27 Markwerf wrote: I still don't see the point of carriers being better then colossi.. Colossi are cheaper, do way more DPS (if they hit at least 2 units which they will 95% of the time) share upgrades with your ground units and are about as mobile as carriers (i'd rather have more speed and cliffwalking then flying).
Importantly colossi demolish hydra's and die to corruptors while carriers die to corruptors and are only decent against hydra's.
Overall there is just no point in making carriers instead of colossi, you need ground units anyway so focussing entirely on ground with a little air support just makes more sense. The composition still gets countered by mass corruptors...
What entirely makes colossi better then carriers is that you easy into them more easily as well. You can just go 1 robo + 1 bay colossi and be fine vs any hydra pushes, this build however will crumble to a good hydra push (on the third or in the main by drop) because 1 carrier doesn't do as well as 1 colossus vs hydra...
1 stargate into 1 robo colossi > 2 stargate into carriers all the time..
This build is not meant to be a direct linear comparison to a colossus build, it is meant to offer a different path to go down when using the 3 gate expand.
For all the people saying this build gets countered by this or it loses to that, just try it out. It's not hard to deviate from the normal 3 gate expand. Try it for 15-20 games and you'll see it actually does decently well against all those things that people said it doesn't do well against.
On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote: A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
So this strategy is only for lower level play and can only be discussed by lower levels?
And your handful of replays where you simply outplay your opponent are proof that it's uncounterable by hydras? The unit that... is supposed to destroy gateway and air compositions?
Well... I guess your strategy is unstoppable then, good job.
Edit: Carrier strats are simply not viable in the current game/meta-game. I'm not even entirely sure they're broken, if mech ever becomes mainstream I could see carriers coming back or something, I just find it silly to claim that carrier/gateway isn't hard countered by hydra/roach/ling corrupter/roach, infestors, etc. And I open stargate in about 50% of the games I play...
On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote: A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
So this strategy is only for lower level play and can only be discussed by lower levels?
And your handful of replays where you simply outplay your opponent are proof that it's uncounterable by hydras? The unit that... is supposed to destroy gateway and air compositions?
Well... I guess your strategy is unstoppable then, good job.
Hydras fail against air. Test it. This thread has already discussed it. Also, you're trying to compare a 3000 diamond player against a korean player. Who wins? derp.
On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote: A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
Okay, so basically you're saying that people who don't play the game a lot and don't know what they are talking about should be the ones to expand build horizons.
Also you're admitting that a good player would defeat this strategy, a good player wouldn't use this strategy.
Which brings us back to: Team Liquid strat forums have so many bad posts with so many bad builds. The reason we don't see carriers as an end-game unit from any serious player is because they aren't very good. You can theorycraft as much zealot and phoenix harass as you like, I've never lost to carriers on the ladder even on maps which favor them heavily, and I'm nobody. You can bet your last vespene that if it were viable, top players would do it.
All joking aside though, I have a couple questions to ask you coming from a Zerg perspective:
It seems that phoenix play will prompt the Zerg to make spore crawlers, so how effective is your DT harass, as the Zerg will most likely have detection up?
how would this deal with infestor/hydra play? It seems a well-placed FG can put a serious dent in your phoenix numbers if there are hydra around, same thing with the interceptors.
On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote: A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
Okay, so basically you're saying that people who don't play the game a lot and don't know what they are talking about should be the ones to expand build horizons.
Also you're admitting that a good player would defeat this strategy, a good player wouldn't use this strategy.
Which brings us back to: Team Liquid strat forums have so many bad posts with so many bad builds. The reason we don't see carriers as an end-game unit from any serious player is because they aren't very good. You can theorycraft as much zealot and phoenix harass as you like, I've never lost to carriers on the ladder even on maps which favor them heavily, and I'm nobody. You can bet your last vespene that if it were viable, top players would do it.
On March 18 2011 15:30 darkscream wrote: I play zerg and I found protoss using this strategy on Shakuras Plateau a lot. I learned a few things.
A) If they don't have any phoenix with their carriers, A good ball of muta-corruptor rapes them. Corruptors focus fire/corruption the carriers, mutalisks a-move and fight the interceptors (mutalisks destroy interceptors).
B) Neural Parasite. If I have more infestors than you have carriers and void rays, I win, especially if you make a mothership because I will make that baby mine. Fungal growth also does funny things to phoenix and to interceptors.
C) Phoenix Harass isn't really that annoying in the early game, I skip hydras and go straight to corruptors usually. So by making Phoenix you already made me build the counter to your endgame.
D) Also, by the sounds of things you skip robo bay and don't get any detection, so I would likely use burrowed units to harass you as much as I could. In fact if I scout a fleet beacon, I might just max with roaches and do a 300-food push on you.
That's how I've reacted to carrier builds the times i've encountered them. This might be really strong on a map which ends up being close by air but even then, Carriers really need a "critical mass" before they are scary.
A) If a protoss sees mutalisks, that tells the protoss to go phoenixes. B) No. C) It's not annoying because you're probably not that high in the ladder. You don't care about a mineral line being wiped out. Also, a spire takes 100 seconds. If phoenixes scout this, we can assume a) lol mutas or b) corrupters. As soon as I see corrupters, I instantly throw up more gates (2 bases --> 6 gates total, 3 bases --> 12 gates total) and go murder you. Going pure zerg air is not the same as going pure toss air. D) If you scout, you won't have problems. If you're going to 300 food push, you're going to need a lot of bases, which is the goal of this protoss build.
On March 19 2011 01:23 mamuto wrote: OP, thank you so much for posting this, I started thinking air vs. zerg again after doing deathball for so long and there you go with this beautiful post.
A few tips and tricks I came up with, augmenting your strategy a touch:
+1 air upgrade means your phoenix are doing 11x2 damage vs light. Larva has 25 hp and 10 armor. See where im going with this? 2 damage per phoenix equals dead larva very very quickly. 13-14 phoenix killing one larva in ~1.1 seconds? 5 - 6 seconds and all that hard work the zerg put in to injecting/macro is gone. Why protoss don't do this already I don't know. I know I am going to do this every game now...
It takes 20 volleys to kill an overlord, ~23 volleys to kill a queen, and about 25 to kill an overseer. I'm thinking going heavy heavy phoenix (like 25 to 30) to one shot the above mentioned units. -One shotting overlords that might be all bundled together in the main is brutal. -One shotting queens completely shuts down Zerg's macro. If there is no other AA around, why not pick up the larva and kill that off too, two at a time? -One shotting overseers not only lowers pop cap but if you have DTs on the field it makes them that much stronger.
25-30 phoenix will completely prevent muta's. This isn't even debatable, it'd be pure suicide. 120hp, light, takes longer to build than a chrono'd phoenix?
Which brings me to a good point, a chronoboosted phoenix comes out in 25 seconds. Thats marine build time. That is insane. to get 30 of them out of two stargates would take a little over 6 minutes, so probably right around the 12-13 minute mark. 30 graviton beams? That shuts down any push the zerg will throw at you. You cannoned your third and they attacked? Lift EVERYTHING in range of cannons and laugh.
Hydra's are light and have 80 hp. lift one, and 4 phoenix each do 20 damage to it. So something like 30 phoenix could instantly snipe 6 hydra's if your micro can handle that.
One last point, OP, instead of getting +1 ground attack right away, get shields +1. Phoenix are all about dat harass and you usually fly off when shields get depleted. +1 to that will increase the potency of harass and applies to both ground and air AND cannons. get +1 attack after that.
I know some of this might be common sense and already known and whatnot, but I want you all to think about how awesome Phoenix really are, especially at that magic number of 25+ I just realized this is sounding like zerg's muta/ling strat. Awesome.
edit: holy shit just realized hallucination can be useful as well. Hallucinate yourself 6-7 extra phoenix, collossi, archons... With no detection, awesome meat shields. With those 6 sentries sitting at 200/200 energy, this is excellent.
Why kill larva when there are drones right next to the hatchery collecting minerals?
Because killing three larva is the equivalent to killing three roaches/hydras/corruptors/mutas/ultras/drones. Larva are a resource pinch point, just like minerals. Though you could go after the Zerg's income, you could just as easily go after his production, and let his income go to waste. It'd kind of be like if Phoenix could pick up and snipe barracks.
Obviously, picking off as many drones -and- larva as you can is a good idea, but I don't see a reason to prioritize one over the other.
On March 19 2011 03:03 Sewi wrote: I tried a build very similar to this a few times at around 3000Masters level. It doesnt work very often because if Zerg gets a lot of Hydras, they shoot down the interceptors too quickly. You could go for HTs with Carriers but than you lose your mobility. Warpprism dont work because they die as soon as a corruptor gets into its vision
Anyways, if you play at lower levels were Zergs dont scout your base at proper timings, you can get a lot of wins with builds like that.
GL HF experimenting with it
Thanks! I hope others will experiment with it as well so I can get some feedback.
Here's a thought though, if you keep zergs creep in check, how are they going to engage you with mass hydra? If they try ff's + the range of carriers would just shred them, or you can vortex half of them and kill part of them and then re engage, it's not like zerg can stream hydras across the map since they are so slow.
If Zerg doesn't attack with all those hydras, your army just becomes exponentially better as you start getting extra resources and can tech to HT and use them defensively and then push once you've killed their army. It seems intuitivethat mass hydra does really well against carriers, butthey do mediocre at best since they just die so fast. I really hope some higher protoss players try this to reinforce my thoughts, or to show me how Hydras will work against this, as I can only speak from experience.
On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote: A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
So this strategy is only for lower level play and can only be discussed by lower levels?
And your handful of replays where you simply outplay your opponent are proof that it's uncounterable by hydras? The unit that... is supposed to destroy gateway and air compositions?
Well... I guess your strategy is unstoppable then, good job.
Edit: Carrier strats are simply not viable in the current game/meta-game. I'm not even entirely sure they're broken, if mech ever becomes mainstream I could see carriers coming back or something, I just find it silly to claim that carrier/gateway isn't hard countered by hydra/roach/ling corrupter/roach, infestors, etc. And I open stargate in about 50% of the games I play...
No my point was that it's highly unproven at high levels, and comparing me using this strategy against a korean zerg would be like comparing a recreational basketball team with an NBA team. The rec team may have amazing plays drawn up, but obviously an NBA team will beat them anyway. However if you gave those plays to another NBA team then it would be a different story.
If you want to use a korean zerg as an example you would need to use an equivalent protoss. Go test it for yourself, Hydras do not beat carriers. As much as it logically makes sense that they should, they do not. I only have a handful of replays because I wasn't laddering a lot, I was smoothing the build order and transitions out in customs with one of my friends.
You say you open stargate 50% of the time, go double stargate and try this strategy, it sounds like you've never built carriers like I'm suggesting based that they logically would get countered. Voidray/carrier/zealot/stalker and the handful of sentrys you have will beat roach/hydra/ling.
On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote: A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
Okay, so basically you're saying that people who don't play the game a lot and don't know what they are talking about should be the ones to expand build horizons.
Also you're admitting that a good player would defeat this strategy, a good player wouldn't use this strategy.
Which brings us back to: Team Liquid strat forums have so many bad posts with so many bad builds. The reason we don't see carriers as an end-game unit from any serious player is because they aren't very good. You can theorycraft as much zealot and phoenix harass as you like, I've never lost to carriers on the ladder even on maps which favor them heavily, and I'm nobody. You can bet your last vespene that if it were viable, top players would do it.
See my NBA analogy, you can't compare me to a korean zerg, I obviously don't have the mechanics, timing sense, game knowledge of a pro. Which is why I'm suggesting people who do have those qualities or who are better than me to try this a good amount and give me feedback.
How would you deal with infestors when using this build? if you overmake phoenixes you can lose them all quite easily to a few fungals + hydra or corrupter. And once carriers hit you can either fungal interceptors or NP the carriers themselves. I think infestor/corrupter/hydra could make this strat challenging to use, though it'd be a fun as hell game to watch.
EDIT: not to mention the fact that if you fungal the phoenixes you can suddenly pump a round of mutas and do some sick harass while they rebuild, and mutas are pretty good against VRs too.
On March 19 2011 03:01 junemermaid wrote: Hmmm... zerg doesn't have to go hydras. Corruptors are very good against 2 out of the 3 stargate units that you'll be producing. Phoenix and carrier both take double penalties for their attack and thus can never really scale into late game. Coupled with the fact that corruptors have a base of two armor, both units are doing pitiful damage to corruptors.
Also, sling/bling would do well versus whatever your ground unit composition since there wouldn't be many sentries or stalkers, and the only unit that could kill them at a reasonable rate would be carriers.
Hydras is NOT the correct response nor is it forced.
Corrupters have 1 base armor I think? I could be wrong though, let me go check
Edit: Oh wow, you're right they have 2 base armor, this makes me think if I see more corrupters than a hydra response I should make more voidrays, thanks for the info.
On March 19 2011 03:01 junemermaid wrote: Hmmm... zerg doesn't have to go hydras. Corruptors are very good against 2 out of the 3 stargate units that you'll be producing. Phoenix and carrier both take double penalties for their attack and thus can never really scale into late game. Coupled with the fact that corruptors have a base of two armor, both units are doing pitiful damage to corruptors.
Also, sling/bling would do well versus whatever your ground unit composition since there wouldn't be many sentries or stalkers, and the only unit that could kill them at a reasonable rate would be carriers.
Hydras is NOT the correct response nor is it forced.
Corrupters have 1 base armor I think? I could be wrong though, let me go check
On March 19 2011 03:01 junemermaid wrote: Hmmm... zerg doesn't have to go hydras. Corruptors are very good against 2 out of the 3 stargate units that you'll be producing. Phoenix and carrier both take double penalties for their attack and thus can never really scale into late game. Coupled with the fact that corruptors have a base of two armor, both units are doing pitiful damage to corruptors.
Also, sling/bling would do well versus whatever your ground unit composition since there wouldn't be many sentries or stalkers, and the only unit that could kill them at a reasonable rate would be carriers.
Hydras is NOT the correct response nor is it forced.
Corrupters have 1 base armor I think? I could be wrong though, let me go check
All joking aside though, I have a couple questions to ask you coming from a Zerg perspective:
It seems that phoenix play will prompt the Zerg to make spore crawlers, so how effective is your DT harass, as the Zerg will most likely have detection up?
how would this deal with infestor/hydra play? It seems a well-placed FG can put a serious dent in your phoenix numbers if there are hydra around, same thing with the interceptors.
I thought about that, as it seems counter intuitive to run DT's into spores, but sending 1-2 to a couple later expansions while engaging their main army leaves just a queen and drones to fight a DT or two and the DT will kill the queen and then just kill drones, just because it is detected doesn't mean it can't do damage. This will force spine crawlers also which just adds more static defense at the cost of 2-4 DT's, also DT's can patrol bases that haven't been taken by zerg and kill drones attempting to build there, delaying expos.
Infester/Hydra seems interesting, i never thought about FG, that would definitely be a good idea vs phoenix since they are so fast and can run. I haven't seen FG vs interecepters, how does it work? Do the intercepters just sit there and not shoot? Or do they sit there and shoot? If it's the former then FG could be amazing vs this.
protoss should really make use of sentries, even if its just for guardian shield, its a huge deal, if you could fit them in somewhere like 2-3 early game, it would go a long way.
On March 19 2011 01:23 mamuto wrote: OP, thank you so much for posting this, I started thinking air vs. zerg again after doing deathball for so long and there you go with this beautiful post.
A few tips and tricks I came up with, augmenting your strategy a touch:
+1 air upgrade means your phoenix are doing 11x2 damage vs light. Larva has 25 hp and 10 armor. See where im going with this? 2 damage per phoenix equals dead larva very very quickly. 13-14 phoenix killing one larva in ~1.1 seconds? 5 - 6 seconds and all that hard work the zerg put in to injecting/macro is gone. Why protoss don't do this already I don't know. I know I am going to do this every game now...
It takes 20 volleys to kill an overlord, ~23 volleys to kill a queen, and about 25 to kill an overseer. I'm thinking going heavy heavy phoenix (like 25 to 30) to one shot the above mentioned units. -One shotting overlords that might be all bundled together in the main is brutal. -One shotting queens completely shuts down Zerg's macro. If there is no other AA around, why not pick up the larva and kill that off too, two at a time? -One shotting overseers not only lowers pop cap but if you have DTs on the field it makes them that much stronger.
25-30 phoenix will completely prevent muta's. This isn't even debatable, it'd be pure suicide. 120hp, light, takes longer to build than a chrono'd phoenix?
Which brings me to a good point, a chronoboosted phoenix comes out in 25 seconds. Thats marine build time. That is insane. to get 30 of them out of two stargates would take a little over 6 minutes, so probably right around the 12-13 minute mark. 30 graviton beams? That shuts down any push the zerg will throw at you. You cannoned your third and they attacked? Lift EVERYTHING in range of cannons and laugh.
Hydra's are light and have 80 hp. lift one, and 4 phoenix each do 20 damage to it. So something like 30 phoenix could instantly snipe 6 hydra's if your micro can handle that.
One last point, OP, instead of getting +1 ground attack right away, get shields +1. Phoenix are all about dat harass and you usually fly off when shields get depleted. +1 to that will increase the potency of harass and applies to both ground and air AND cannons. get +1 attack after that.
I know some of this might be common sense and already known and whatnot, but I want you all to think about how awesome Phoenix really are, especially at that magic number of 25+ I just realized this is sounding like zerg's muta/ling strat. Awesome.
edit: holy shit just realized hallucination can be useful as well. Hallucinate yourself 6-7 extra phoenix, collossi, archons... With no detection, awesome meat shields. With those 6 sentries sitting at 200/200 energy, this is excellent.
Why kill larva when there are drones right next to the hatchery collecting minerals?
Because killing three larva is the equivalent to killing three roaches/hydras/corruptors/mutas/ultras/drones. Larva are a resource pinch point, just like minerals. Though you could go after the Zerg's income, you could just as easily go after his production, and let his income go to waste. It'd kind of be like if Phoenix could pick up and snipe barracks.
Obviously, picking off as many drones -and- larva as you can is a good idea, but I don't see a reason to prioritize one over the other.
This is just an awesome idea lol, I'll have to experiment with it, I honestly didn't even know you could lift larva, lifting a queen at the main and then quickly killing all the larva could definitely stunt zerg's production. Also good idea on getting +1 shields instead of ground armor, since it synergizes with a lot more of my build, thanks for the input, I will definitely try more phoenixes
On March 19 2011 06:21 Warrice wrote: protoss should really make use of sentries, even if its just for guardian shield, its a huge deal, if you could fit them in somewhere like 2-3 early game, it would go a long way.
I get about 4-6 early game for defensive purposes and they usually get 200/200 energy when the battles come, I usually throw up 2 guardian shields to cover most of my army and then i use ff's to help in the battle.
On March 19 2011 06:04 SilverJohnny wrote: How would you deal with infestors when using this build? if you overmake phoenixes you can lose them all quite easily to a few fungals + hydra or corrupter. And once carriers hit you can either fungal interceptors or NP the carriers themselves. I think infestor/corrupter/hydra could make this strat challenging to use, though it'd be a fun as hell game to watch.
EDIT: not to mention the fact that if you fungal the phoenixes you can suddenly pump a round of mutas and do some sick harass while they rebuild, and mutas are pretty good against VRs too.
Ya, infester play sounds like it could be a real thorn in the side of this build, although you'd need to keep an eye on them cause they become prime targets to lift and snipe by phoenix fly by's, I guess I'll suggest it to my friend for when we play our customs, definitely something to keep in mind. Thanks!
1) You'll simply die to a roach attack to your natural. Going zealot heavy with a few sentries won't do much, even if the zerg is polite enough to wait for your cannons to finish before he attacks you. Lets not even discuss the type of carnage that would follow from a high economy ling/baneling attack.
2) There's this unit called the corruptor. Its pretty good against everything you're making. Zerg doesn't have to go Hydra simply because you showed up with some phoenixes and a void ray. In fact many zergs will skip hydra completely since they expect you to follow up with colossus - roach/corruptor becomes a serious problem.
3) Harassing with DT and phoenix makes no sense. Make unit that forces spore crawlers ---> make cloaked units for harass? wut?
4) While you may be able to delay the 3rd, you certainly will not be able to deny it. Assuming that Zerg will let you get your third up uncontested doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
5) Even if Z does go hydra and plays into your hands, you are still relying on him to not scout your fleet beacon. If he does he will sure make a spire and some corruptors, in which case I gotta ask again... what are you going to do? They are amazing against literally everything you're making.
6) You will not have the economy to make void rays *and carriers*. If Z is not afk he'll make a ton of corruptors and roaches before you could conceivably build up a critical mass of voids. He can produce 4-12 at a time while you can produce 2 at a time. He'll be on 6-8 gas while you're on 4. The math is not in your favour.
On March 18 2011 14:21 oOOoOphidian wrote: Mutas are actually extremely good against Phoenix as long as there are a decent number of them. Definitely not worth dismissing that.
Good build, though. I've long thought that Carriers were incredibly underused, especially given the huge delays that Phoenix builds can cause in Zerg's ability to mass and push out.
What do you mean lol? Phoenix are faster than mutas AND have higher range, I killed 20-30 mutas with 4-6 phoenix, of course it took most of my attention, but thats besides the point. I agree carriers are way underutilized vs Zerg, against terran rines just lol at interceptors though....
This build seems really good, I have been tweaking with a build that just powers out pure phoenix of fast 2 stargate vs Terran, toss air is just sooo good. You will usually have so many excess minerals you can cannon hard and build a shit ton of cannons.
Fastest Phoenix build I could do with a build order optimizer while still playing it reasonably safe. At then end of this build you have about 450 minerals meaning you can probably squeak in some more gateways and zealots and cannons and a forge. + Show Spoiler +
9 Pylon 13 Assimilator 14 Gateway 14 Move Probe To Gas 15 Assimilator 16 Pylon 16 Gateway 16 Move Probe To Gas 17 Move Probe To Gas 17 Cybernetics Core 18 Move Probe To Gas 18 Zealot 21 Pylon 21 Move Probe To Gas 21 Move Probe To Gas 22 Sentry 24 Chrono Gateway 25 Chrono Gateway 25 Sentry 27 Chrono Gateway 28 Stalker 30 Stalker 33 Chrono Gateway 33 Chrono Gateway 33 Move Probe To Gas 33 Pylon 34 Air Weapons 1 36 Chrono Nexus 38 Stargate 39 Chrono Nexus 39 Stargate 39 Pylon 40 Nexus 41 Pylon 42 Phoenix 45 Phoenix 48 Phoenix 50 Chrono Stargate 51 Chrono Stargate
1) You'll simply die to a roach attack to your natural. Going zealot heavy with a few sentries won't do much, even if the zerg is polite enough to wait for your cannons to finish before he attacks you. Lets not even discuss the type of carnage that would follow from a high economy ling/baneling attack.
2) There's this unit called the corruptor. Its pretty good against everything you're making. Zerg doesn't have to go Hydra simply because you showed up with some phoenixes and a void ray. In fact many zergs will skip hydra completely since they expect you to follow up with colossus - roach/corruptor becomes a serious problem.
3) Harassing with DT and phoenix makes no sense. Make unit that forces spore crawlers ---> make cloaked units for harass? wut?
4) While you may be able to delay the 3rd, you certainly will not be able to deny it. Assuming that Zerg will let you get your third up uncontested doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
5) Even if Z does go hydra and plays into your hands, you are still relying on him to not scout your fleet beacon. If he does he will sure make a spire and some corruptors, in which case I gotta ask again... what are you going to do? They are amazing against literally everything you're making.
6) You will not have the economy to make void rays *and carriers*. If Z is not afk he'll make a ton of corruptors and roaches before you could conceivably build up a critical mass of voids. He can produce 4-12 at a time while you can produce 2 at a time. He'll be on 6-8 gas while you're on 4. The math is not in your favour.
1) I'll see roaches coming across the map, and I make my canons shortly after my forge is done since this build has extra minerals it isn't a problem to build them. Also zealot/sentry with 2-3 stalkers and my 1 voidray I will have + the 3-4 phoenix lifting roaches can hold an early roach push.
How high of an economy would a ling/bling attack have after losing half the drones, sure you'd probably kill my natural, but the counter of 3-4 voids/phoenix and some zealot/stalker would kill you. (In Theory, I haven't had experience vs ling/bling)
2) Corrupters are horrendous against voidrays, and if you skip hydras I can just do a gateway/voidray push and kill you. Carriers aren't mandatory, it's just a transition.
3) Just because a DT is detected doesn't mean it can't do damage, when it comes to 4th and 5th base times, I'll have DT's patroling the spots to kill drones who would be making hatchery's and then later I can send 2 to those expos and kill the queen and just kill drones, which forces spine crawlers also. Another nice reason to have access to DT's is that Archons are amazing against zerg
4) This is true, but delaying it is what I'm intending, keeping the zerg on even timed bases helps tremendously, and when I put my 3rd up I put like 5-6 canons to zone one area since I have a lot of extra minerals and canons at that time are better than more zealots. But I agree that zerg won't let me have a 3rd base easily.
5) If I see mass corrupter, I just stop carrier production and pump voidrays, the fleet beacon also allows for one other key component other than making carriers, it allows me to make a mothership and to continue my air upgrades.
6) Zerg will not have 6-8 vs my 4 gas he'll have 6-8 vs my 6 gas, also 2 chronoboosted stargates constantly making voidrays can get out of hand, it's not hard to keep my voidrays alive and then transition into adding a few carriers (which I probably wouldn't do, since voidrays beat corrupters and roaches). It's not that easy to mass roach/corrupter while making spores, extra queens and replacing drones from phoenix.
I understand your points, but the main point is you don't have to make carriers, in a colossus strategy you must make colossus or you die, in this strategy you can survive even if you don't make carriers. They just are the end game unit because when they get to the late game and you can get a critical mass of highly upgraded carrier/voidray it becomes really hard for the zerg to stop.
So upon seeing this thread, I became inspired to try a little bit of air play in my PvZ.
Here's my first go at it. I didn't feel comfortable doing a 100% change in play just because I'm not sure how well it would work, so you will see some colossus and blink stalkers etc.
I open with a 3gate expand with phoenix's to scout/harass and eventually get void rays and then carriers once I get 3 bases.
I didn't go hardcore into the air play, but I continued to use it throughout the game. I found that the carriers seem to be more effective than I had perceived.
Take it for what it's worth. Some more discussion for what it may be like used at a more top level of play.
i stopped reading after 3gate expand w/ less sentries about half way thru: a roach sling timing push or roach sling all-in would rape this. no doubt about it, ESPECIALLY with less sentries than a normal 3gate expand, no stalkers
now conversely, a roach sling allin or timing push can be held off w/ sentries[well placed FF] and cannons only but I stopped reading to see how your minerals are allocated and thus even be viable in the build.
edit: and to me the only reason i think the carriers are effective is because phoenixes do so much damage and give complete map control--both air and ground, thus allowing you to safely get carriers which honestly aren't even that strong but when a zerg is battered so much they are.
yes, their interceptors attack 2x for a base of 5dmg or w/e and upgs help A LOT but still you need a critical mass and a large number of hydras can snipe them.
On March 19 2011 06:56 majestouch wrote: i stopped reading after 3gate expand w/ less sentries about half way thru: a roach sling timing push or roach sling all-in would rape this. no doubt about it, ESPECIALLY with less sentries than a normal 3gate expand, no stalkers
now conversely, a roach sling allin or timing push can be held off w/ sentries[well placed FF] and cannons only but I stopped reading to see how your minerals are allocated and thus even be viable in the build.
On March 19 2011 06:56 majestouch wrote: i stopped reading after 3gate expand w/ less sentries about half way thru: a roach sling timing push or roach sling all-in would rape this. no doubt about it, ESPECIALLY with less sentries than a normal 3gate expand, no stalkers
now conversely, a roach sling allin or timing push can be held off w/ sentries[well placed FF] and cannons only but I stopped reading to see how your minerals are allocated and thus even be viable in the build.
a) You scout for an all-in. b) You put up defenses to defend the all-in. c) You win because he all-ined.
It's seriously that simple, just get up defenses and more sentries to defend (8 max) if you feel unsafe. If the choke is fairly small (such as shattered temple, assuming you are using sim-city), you can easily hold pushes with less sentries.
On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote: A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
So this strategy is only for lower level play and can only be discussed by lower levels?
And your handful of replays where you simply outplay your opponent are proof that it's uncounterable by hydras? The unit that... is supposed to destroy gateway and air compositions?
Well... I guess your strategy is unstoppable then, good job.
Hydras fail against air. Test it. This thread has already discussed it. Also, you're trying to compare a 3000 diamond player against a korean player. Who wins? derp.
whats the point of learning//learning to execute a build that is only capable on lower levels, you are basically telling yourself "hey i'll never be masters so i'll just pick up on gimmicky builds that only work on lower levels". to me, that seems like a colossal waste of time.
Just as an out of the loop observation...this assumes that Zerg player would not be, by default, going Roach/Hydra. In addition to having Hydras which basically own gateway units with Roachs (unless Immortals or Collosi show up) and sucessfully stop the Phoenix harass (and lets not get started on Hydra vs Void Rays [unless they are fully charged or at a critical mass of about 1 to 1 Voids to Hydras]) the endgame unit (Carriers if it has been lost in the thread) is also a unit that is successfully stopped by Hydras? (This is because the targeting AI works wonders against the Interceptors nowadays while the Roaches would be battling the gateway army and winning as it has no immortals or collosi)
As a further observation, no unit in this build hard counters Hydras like Collosi do.
I'm sure I could be thwarted by another clever thinker out there, but hey, I'm just thinking out loud...er...out internet.
Too much theorycrafting going on in this thread. Hydra/roach drop into the protoss base = gg. Sorry but a few Phoenix will not stop 4-5 overlords full of Hydras from reaching their destination. I'm a 4070 rated Master Protoss on the EU server and I can tell you this will not work at high level on any map except for Delta Quadrant. It works on Delta Quadrant because you can turtle on 2 bases 100% safely because the choke into your main can be easily Force Fielded. I know it works because I played this style about 3 months ago. Except you go Mothership/Void Ray/Carrier/ Zealot.
Edit: Phoenix are not as good as people think they are vs zerg (at least at high level play).
On March 19 2011 07:28 scatmango2 wrote: Too much theorycrafting going on in this thread. Hydra/roach drop into the protoss base = gg. Sorry but a few Phoenix will not stop 4-5 overlords full of Hydras from reaching their destination. I'm a 4070 rated Master Protoss on the EU server and I can tell you this will not work at high level on any map except for Delta Quadrant. It works on Delta Quadrant because you can turtle on 2 bases 100% safely because the choke into your main can be easily Force Fielded. I know it works because I played this style about 3 months ago. Except you go Mothership/Void Ray/Carrier/ Zealot.
Edit: Phoenix are not as good as people think they are vs zerg (at least at high level play).
You're theory-crafting. This uses a 3 gate sentry expo, not a forge fe, which means you can defend the drops by paying attention.
On March 19 2011 07:28 scatmango2 wrote: Too much theorycrafting going on in this thread. Hydra/roach drop into the protoss base = gg. Sorry but a few Phoenix will not stop 4-5 overlords full of Hydras from reaching their destination. I'm a 4070 rated Master Protoss on the EU server and I can tell you this will not work at high level on any map except for Delta Quadrant. It works on Delta Quadrant because you can turtle on 2 bases 100% safely because the choke into your main can be easily Force Fielded. I know it works because I played this style about 3 months ago. Except you go Mothership/Void Ray/Carrier/ Zealot.
Edit: Phoenix are not as good as people think they are vs zerg (at least at high level play).
You make it sound like you have no units but air...
There is such a thing called adaptability, you of all people should know this Random 4070 Master EU player.
You're theory-crafting. This uses a 3 gate sentry expo, not a forge fe, which means you can defend the drops by paying attention.[/QUOTE]
Can you point out where I said forge fast expand? You act as if arguing with me with your theory-crafting some how makes it more viable... LOL. The proof is in the pudding that you don't see this in pro-play because IT DOES NOT WORK.
On March 19 2011 07:33 scatmango2 wrote: You're theory-crafting. This uses a 3 gate sentry expo, not a forge fe, which means you can defend the drops by paying attention.
Can you point out where I said forge fast expand? You act as if arguing with me with your theory-crafting some how makes it more viable... LOL. The proof is in the pudding that you don't see this in pro-play because IT DOES NOT WORK.
I have yet to see a single person on the internet use this phrase correctly. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" means that something must be experienced for its quality to be properly appreciated. What you stated is simply an argument from authority.
On March 19 2011 06:56 majestouch wrote: i stopped reading after 3gate expand w/ less sentries about half way thru: a roach sling timing push or roach sling all-in would rape this. no doubt about it, ESPECIALLY with less sentries than a normal 3gate expand, no stalkers
now conversely, a roach sling allin or timing push can be held off w/ sentries[well placed FF] and cannons only but I stopped reading to see how your minerals are allocated and thus even be viable in the build.
a) You scout for an all-in. b) You put up defenses to defend the all-in. c) You win because he all-ined.
It's seriously that simple, just get up defenses and more sentries to defend (8 max) if you feel unsafe. If the choke is fairly small (such as shattered temple, assuming you are using sim-city), you can easily hold pushes with less sentries.
Exactly, and you will have the added benefit of a couple voidrays
On March 19 2011 06:56 majestouch wrote: i stopped reading after 3gate expand w/ less sentries about half way thru: a roach sling timing push or roach sling all-in would rape this. no doubt about it, ESPECIALLY with less sentries than a normal 3gate expand, no stalkers
now conversely, a roach sling allin or timing push can be held off w/ sentries[well placed FF] and cannons only but I stopped reading to see how your minerals are allocated and thus even be viable in the build.
edit: and to me the only reason i think the carriers are effective is because phoenixes do so much damage and give complete map control--both air and ground, thus allowing you to safely get carriers which honestly aren't even that strong but when a zerg is battered so much they are.
yes, their interceptors attack 2x for a base of 5dmg or w/e and upgs help A LOT but still you need a critical mass and a large number of hydras can snipe them.
Less as in 2-3 less, which is 200-300 gas. A roach/ling all-in would lose since you just need 1 voidray and ff's to delay and then 2 more voidrays would come and end the push since voids/canons/zealots and 2-3 stalkers would be able to defend the push. My minerals are allocated into zealots and canons it doesn't mean I never build stalkers, I build quite a few of them to be honest. Just when you're on 2 stargates and constantly getting upgrades zealots are easier to consistently fit in production cycles.
Hydras off creep will never be able to snipe carriers, range 8 ends that chance ever, since to slither up they are so slow and if they are trying to slowly move up and hit carriers they are getting decimated by everything, especially zealots.
On March 19 2011 06:49 Gemini_19 wrote: So upon seeing this thread, I became inspired to try a little bit of air play in my PvZ.
Here's my first go at it. I didn't feel comfortable doing a 100% change in play just because I'm not sure how well it would work, so you will see some colossus and blink stalkers etc.
I open with a 3gate expand with phoenix's to scout/harass and eventually get void rays and then carriers once I get 3 bases.
I didn't go hardcore into the air play, but I continued to use it throughout the game. I found that the carriers seem to be more effective than I had perceived.
Take it for what it's worth. Some more discussion for what it may be like used at a more top level of play.
Both players are 3200+ Masters.
I also use blink stalkers in my air composition, but if you had stopped colossus, carrier production and gone like 3 stargate voidray you would have won since he started going corrupter/roach/ling. Also the 2nd forge and templar archives were wasted buildings I feel. Also when zerg was trying to push with roaches you could have lifted 3-4 of them with your idle phoenix and just gotten free kills.
Another key point is if you had gone up to 6-7 phoenix instead of the 4-5 you had you could have killed all those queens instead of having to run away. I also take my 3rd a lot sooner than youdid, but that could have been due to that pesky zergling. Another point is that if you had kept up the air upgrades your carriers and voidrays would have done even better, the voidrays especially vs those corrupters. But glad to see people are trying it out :D
On March 19 2011 07:11 Xylarthen wrote: Just as an out of the loop observation...this assumes that Zerg player would not be, by default, going Roach/Hydra. In addition to having Hydras which basically own gateway units with Roachs (unless Immortals or Collosi show up) and sucessfully stop the Phoenix harass (and lets not get started on Hydra vs Void Rays [unless they are fully charged or at a critical mass of about 1 to 1 Voids to Hydras]) the endgame unit (Carriers if it has been lost in the thread) is also a unit that is successfully stopped by Hydras? (This is because the targeting AI works wonders against the Interceptors nowadays while the Roaches would be battling the gateway army and winning as it has no immortals or collosi)
As a further observation, no unit in this build hard counters Hydras like Collosi do.
I'm sure I could be thwarted by another clever thinker out there, but hey, I'm just thinking out loud...er...out internet.
The point is not to be engaging a roach hydra army out on creep, if the zerg maxes on roach/hydra then they either sit there and my army composition becomes better, or they attack into where I want them to and get ff'd and defended, I may never kill the whole army but I can defend until my tech kicks in. Voidrays defended by ff's can kill Hydra/Roach, also when are you talking about this push? Because an early push with just a handful of hydras with roaches can be thwarted by just lifting your hydras with my phoenix and since phoenix kill hydras extremely fast that ends the push because 1-2 voidrays will kill all your roaches.
On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote: A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
So this strategy is only for lower level play and can only be discussed by lower levels?
And your handful of replays where you simply outplay your opponent are proof that it's uncounterable by hydras? The unit that... is supposed to destroy gateway and air compositions?
Well... I guess your strategy is unstoppable then, good job.
Hydras fail against air. Test it. This thread has already discussed it. Also, you're trying to compare a 3000 diamond player against a korean player. Who wins? derp.
whats the point of learning//learning to execute a build that is only capable on lower levels, you are basically telling yourself "hey i'll never be masters so i'll just pick up on gimmicky builds that only work on lower levels". to me, that seems like a colossal waste of time.
Please point out where this build is gimmicky? It's a strong solid strategy, that doesn't rely on luck or catching the zerg off guard, it just becomes better if you catch them off guard. I never stated anywhere that "I will never get to masters" I just don't have the time to consistently play to get there that fast, I slowly work my way towards it. Also no one on higher levels is trying this extensively so all the discussion on this strategy is based on theory, no one knows how it performs at higher levels. If it was proven that, after some thorough usage at a high level, it doesn't work I'd accept it and go back to the drawing board.
On March 19 2011 07:33 scatmango2 wrote: You're theory-crafting. This uses a 3 gate sentry expo, not a forge fe, which means you can defend the drops by paying attention.
Can you point out where I said forge fast expand? You act as if arguing with me with your theory-crafting some how makes it more viable... LOL. The proof is in the pudding that you don't see this in pro-play because IT DOES NOT WORK.
I have yet to see a single person on the internet use this phrase correctly. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" means that something must be experienced for its quality to be properly appreciated. What you stated is simply an argument from authority.
</melvin>
What he did was not actually an argument from authority.
On March 19 2011 07:28 scatmango2 wrote: Too much theorycrafting going on in this thread. Hydra/roach drop into the protoss base = gg. Sorry but a few Phoenix will not stop 4-5 overlords full of Hydras from reaching their destination. I'm a 4070 rated Master Protoss on the EU server and I can tell you this will not work at high level on any map except for Delta Quadrant. It works on Delta Quadrant because you can turtle on 2 bases 100% safely because the choke into your main can be easily Force Fielded. I know it works because I played this style about 3 months ago. Except you go Mothership/Void Ray/Carrier/ Zealot.
Edit: Phoenix are not as good as people think they are vs zerg (at least at high level play).
You're talking about a zerg getting fast overlord speed and drops, along with a good amount of drones/hydras/roaches whilefending off 6+ phoenixes harassing you. I'm also not talking about a few phoenix I'm talking about 6+ which can defend a drop since a clump of overlords moving across the map is the most obvious thing ever, Phoenix can also lift your hydras in that fight and since phoenix kill hydras extremely quickly it lets the rest of my army win that fight. Also how many hydras are you going to have at that point, and what arethey going to attack? The gateway units? The voidray(s)? Or the phoenix?
On March 19 2011 07:33 scatmango2 wrote: Can you point out where I said forge fast expand? You act as if arguing with me with your theory-crafting some how makes it more viable... LOL. The proof is in the pudding that you don't see this in pro-play because IT DOES NOT WORK.
How many pros have tried this? or even experimented with it? Almost every pro, or high level player I see is on the colossus track 100% of the time, their plans all transition into colossus eventually. I can't fathom how people can come in here and blindly state that "this can't/won't work" without using it or playing against it a decent amount.
i just tried this on cross position on shattered temple. The zerg went roach hydra with 2/2 upgrades and i had carriers at that point. He pushed and took out my 2nd and 3rd but i took out everything. The hydras couldnt reach the carriers off creep. I instantly rebuilt my nat and 3rd and he went mass corrupters. Mass corrupter didnt work so well against heavily upgraded carriers (i was 3/2 upgrades). He didnt have enough gas to fund another corrupter wave so gg.....
I need to work on my phoenix timing. Theres a window where there isnt alot of hydras on the map to defend against phoenix harass. I hope someone will take the time to refine this build. Carriers off 3 base is so good lol.
edit: I think with better zerg scouting they will be able to break this before the carriers are out. The zerg saw my 3 gate expand with 5 sentries and assumed i was going the colossus death ball.
Looks like you're doing some experimenting, good luck. At higher levels I think you'll discover that hydras really aren't a problem, the problem is corruptor mixes and roach timings. Here's a similar thread I posted a while back. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186599
Sweet! I've done some carrier/stargate play in PvZ and loved it. Will try this out if it's more refined than the slop I usually put together. Thread bookmarked.
On March 19 2011 08:15 Ownos wrote: Sweet! I've done some carrier/stargate play in PvZ and loved it. Will try this out if it's more refined than the slop I usually put together. Thread bookmarked.
Thanks :D
On March 19 2011 08:11 GoldenH wrote: Looks like you're doing some experimenting, good luck. At higher levels I think you'll discover that hydras really aren't a problem, the problem is corruptor mixes and roach timings. Here's a similar thread I posted a while back. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186599
Ya I definitely feel that corrupter roach timings can be quite effective, but how would a corrupter roach timing do against a gateway/voidray composition? Considering normally when people make voidrays they aren't working on upgrades for them. I'll check out that thread for sure :D
On March 19 2011 08:08 recklessfire wrote: i just tried this on cross position on shattered temple. The zerg went roach hydra with 2/2 upgrades and i had carriers at that point. He pushed and took out my 2nd and 3rd but i took out everything. The hydras couldnt reach the carriers off creep. I instantly rebuilt my nat and 3rd and he went mass corrupters. Mass corrupter didnt work so well against heavily upgraded carriers (i was 3/2 upgrades). He didnt have enough gas to fund another corrupter wave so gg.....
I need to work on my phoenix timing. Theres a window where there isnt alot of hydras on the map to defend against phoenix harass. I hope someone will take the time to refine this build. Carriers off 3 base is so good lol.
edit: I think with better zerg scouting they will be able to break this before the carriers are out. The zerg saw my 3 gate expand with 5 sentries and assumed i was going the colossus death ball.
I feel if they attack sooner you can discourage them from trying to kill you with good ff's at a choke and using your voidrays. Exactly, lategame heavily upgraded protoss units just become so hard to deal with for zerg, and the carrier I feel is a unit that improves exponentially with upgrades due to how it's attack works. Glad to see people trying it out.
The entire reason I transition from a 3 gate expand is to make zerg feel like they know what I'm doing, but it's such a safe and stable opening that it allows you to safely get carriers as long as you do some harassment with phoenix. When that window where there aren't that many hydras on the field arrives, if you have like 8-10 phoenix I just go and kill the hydras, it's quite funny how fast they die.
On March 19 2011 07:11 Xylarthen wrote: Just as an out of the loop observation...this assumes that Zerg player would not be, by default, going Roach/Hydra. In addition to having Hydras which basically own gateway units with Roachs (unless Immortals or Collosi show up) and sucessfully stop the Phoenix harass (and lets not get started on Hydra vs Void Rays [unless they are fully charged or at a critical mass of about 1 to 1 Voids to Hydras]) the endgame unit (Carriers if it has been lost in the thread) is also a unit that is successfully stopped by Hydras? (This is because the targeting AI works wonders against the Interceptors nowadays while the Roaches would be battling the gateway army and winning as it has no immortals or collosi)
As a further observation, no unit in this build hard counters Hydras like Collosi do.
I'm sure I could be thwarted by another clever thinker out there, but hey, I'm just thinking out loud...er...out internet.
In straight fight, yes. I thought that at first. From my experience, hydras do not hard counter the carriers. Hydras are slow and if you got any sort of pathing blocker like a cliff or zealots you can kite them around using the graviton catapult to pick them off and pull back, pick them off, pull back, repeat. Sure, they could hold position and shoot your interceptors, but if you're killing 3-4 hydras at a time and losing maybe 8 interceptors that's a fair trade.
3 carriers and a just small handful of zealots/sentries will kill an equal amount in resources of hydras. You can try that yourself in a unit tester.
On March 18 2011 14:21 oOOoOphidian wrote: Mutas are actually extremely good against Phoenix as long as there are a decent number of them. Definitely not worth dismissing that.
Good build, though. I've long thought that Carriers were incredibly underused, especially given the huge delays that Phoenix builds can cause in Zerg's ability to mass and push out.
It's nothing personal dude, but that is like saying "roaches are extremely good against immortals as long as there are a decent number of them". You can make any unit beat any other unit if you've got an overwhelming amount, but you have to measure cost effeciency aswell, right?
Phoenix > Mutas, even in lesser numbers, go test for yourself.
On March 19 2011 07:33 scatmango2 wrote: You're theory-crafting. This uses a 3 gate sentry expo, not a forge fe, which means you can defend the drops by paying attention.
Can you point out where I said forge fast expand? You act as if arguing with me with your theory-crafting some how makes it more viable... LOL. The proof is in the pudding that you don't see this in pro-play because IT DOES NOT WORK.[/QUOTE]
You really need to pay attention to the mistakes. You think map-control and the ground army consisting of 8 sentries and many stalkers can't stop a drop from coming?
"You make it sound like this build only consists of air units." < This man is correct.
If you were 4000 masters for real, you would read and pay attention carefully to what this build has, which is a 3 gate sentry expand army, capable of defending from overlords if you pay attention with observers, hallucination, etc. 3 gate sentry expos has constant hallucination scouting, what makes you think we can't scout 200000 overlords coming towards our base?
On March 19 2011 08:11 GoldenH wrote: Looks like you're doing some experimenting, good luck. At higher levels I think you'll discover that hydras really aren't a problem, the problem is corruptor mixes and roach timings. Here's a similar thread I posted a while back. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186599
Ya I definitely feel that corrupter roach timings can be quite effective, but how would a corrupter roach timing do against a gateway/voidray composition? Considering normally when people make voidrays they aren't working on upgrades for them. I'll check out that thread for sure :D
Well corruptor/roach isn't much of a problem, in fact, that's pretty much the best thing for you if you're building void rays, the thing is that there are timings with just roaches, or roach/hydra mixes, or going hydra then switching to corruptors, that can be hard to scout and deal with when your core unit takes 2 whole minutes to produce.
Okay, so I loaded up a custom game with a buddy who offraced as zerg for me. We didn't play seriously, he wanted to see this strategy I've been raving so much about today. I tried getting 25+ phoenix like I posted earlier, and its just a hard number to hit. I did have 20-22 constantly (losing a couple to spore/hydra) and
oh. my. god. It completely destroys everything other than a 50 hydra ball.
I flew into a cloud of overlords and they all died. I didn't attack move, i was just flying away from hydra/corruptor. They melted. I was constantly supply capping my friend and he was 30-40 under the cap too.
I tried the larva killing trick, and 20 phoenix make short work of it. I am not sure, but it seems like you dont even need the +1 air attack to damage the larva (you are guaranteed 1 damage no matter the armor amount). Not too sure about this, maybe someone can confirm.
This is far more deadly than a muta ball harass. I could outrun his hydras on creep, and his corruptors. I hit his 3rd, natural, and main with minimal losses other than to spore crawlers. Now, I'm sure a masters/pro will be able to split his army properly to defend everywhere, but if you got 20 phoenix up against 5-10 hydras, lift those bad boys up. Or hit the main with air, and the 3rd with zealots. Seriously, 20 phoenix is brutal. Very quick to get them, too. And I noticed I was floating gas more than minerals, but that might be because I wasn't upgrading consistently.
Problems arose in big battles. he had pure hydra corruptor (max upgrades) vs. my archon/void/carrier and it stomped me. He still had about 6-7 hydras left over and I had nothing.
Hierarch, what do you think about HT's? You're getting charge as soon as possible already, HT's will be very effective against pure hydra balls, corruptors are useless, and something like infestors can and will be feedback'd. I guess it'd depend on what the zerg chooses to do, but mass hydra/corruptor is not pleasant to deal with. You can always morph into archons, too.
A bit off from your general strategy, but something like a zealot/HT/voidray/phoenix mix (with 20+ phoenix) might be totally killer.
You guys keep saying that the hydralisks can't reach the carriers... but they're not supposed to. You get equal results fighting Carriers with Hydras if you just let them sit back and auto-target interceptors -- chasing after the ships themselves is stupid.
Anyone trying to micro their hydras INTO the enemy army is asking to die. Same as running them at banelings.
That aside, this strategy looks workable but nowhere near as good as you say. A smart player building corruptors will not simply let you harass his mineral line while his corruptors are far away... he'll just stay nearby and if you try to attack him anywhere he'll be there already, simply because his base area is smaller than the area you have to cover going around the corruptors, and phoenix aren't THAT fast.
I wouldn't even think about challenging the Protoss for air dominance if they did a build like this, past maybe killing the phoenix off with Corruptors. I'd probably just go roach/hydra and push into them and fall back before FFs become a problem. Ideally I could expand behind the pressure or position overlords for, say, nydusing their main with Zerglings or doing an actual drop when your phoenix have to fall back or you die. The phoenix can't be everywhere at once, though they are quite good wherever they happen to be.
The idea of sending DTs to bases that already have detection is also quite flawed -- a smart Zerg will send enough lings to the base while running his queen/drones away from your DTs, which would probably result in rather lackluster ground harassment. The phoenix will stay useful for a bit, though.
The only REAL problem I see with this build is that it relies completely on your opponent mucking up to get ahead. If they play very cautiously and don't lose much to your harass (which is 100% possible) you will outright lose when they get enough units. Same thing goes for early aggression leading into bigger attacks that just force you out of this build before you get any mileage out of the Stargates. Any time I see a Protoss player make a Void Ray I giggle with delight, because I can do heavy damage to him unless he turtles, hard, with lings.
On March 18 2011 14:44 DarthXX wrote: Mutas shread phoenix when they hit a nice number, however with this build you will be able to produce a lot more phoeinx than we normally see. What I mean is we usually see things like 5-6 phoenix getting taken out by 25+ mutas, but I think if you had like 15 phoenix it would be a different story. But its hard to say since we've never seen this in a pro game.
Um... A critical mass of mutas will kill just about anything in small numbers.
On March 19 2011 06:49 Gemini_19 wrote: So upon seeing this thread, I became inspired to try a little bit of air play in my PvZ.
Here's my first go at it. I didn't feel comfortable doing a 100% change in play just because I'm not sure how well it would work, so you will see some colossus and blink stalkers etc.
I open with a 3gate expand with phoenix's to scout/harass and eventually get void rays and then carriers once I get 3 bases.
I didn't go hardcore into the air play, but I continued to use it throughout the game. I found that the carriers seem to be more effective than I had perceived.
Take it for what it's worth. Some more discussion for what it may be like used at a more top level of play.
Both players are 3200+ Masters.
I also use blink stalkers in my air composition, but if you had stopped colossus, carrier production and gone like 3 stargate voidray you would have won since he started going corrupter/roach/ling. Also the 2nd forge and templar archives were wasted buildings I feel. Also when zerg was trying to push with roaches you could have lifted 3-4 of them with your idle phoenix and just gotten free kills.
Another key point is if you had gone up to 6-7 phoenix instead of the 4-5 you had you could have killed all those queens instead of having to run away. I also take my 3rd a lot sooner than youdid, but that could have been due to that pesky zergling. Another point is that if you had kept up the air upgrades your carriers and voidrays would have done even better, the voidrays especially vs those corrupters. But glad to see people are trying it out :D
Yeah, like I said it was my first time trying so everything you said I noticed afterwords and realized how much better it would have been.
The late 3rd was cause of that zergling, so that was just unfortunate.
I wanted to get more air upgrades but just straight up forgot...haha.
The templar archives was just to have just in case. When you get maxed, usually it's a good thing to just throw down everything you don't yet have just to have it. I had the money to do it so I did. I could have obviously done without it tho as I didn't use it. It was more of a "better safe than sorry" aspect since I had the money at the time and it never really hurt me.
The 2nd forge I feel helped. Let me get to 2-2 faster and I possibly would have lost the big battle with the large amount of brood lords had I not had the 2-2, however I don't know the timings of any of that, I'm just speculating.
I'll continue trying it out tho I'll update here if you'd like.
On March 19 2011 08:11 GoldenH wrote: Looks like you're doing some experimenting, good luck. At higher levels I think you'll discover that hydras really aren't a problem, the problem is corruptor mixes and roach timings. Here's a similar thread I posted a while back. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186599
Ya I definitely feel that corrupter roach timings can be quite effective, but how would a corrupter roach timing do against a gateway/voidray composition? Considering normally when people make voidrays they aren't working on upgrades for them. I'll check out that thread for sure :D
Well corruptor/roach isn't much of a problem, in fact, that's pretty much the best thing for you if you're building void rays, the thing is that there are timings with just roaches, or roach/hydra mixes, or going hydra then switching to corruptors, that can be hard to scout and deal with when your core unit takes 2 whole minutes to produce.
I feel that this build is getting put into a corner like the colossus builds, in a colossus build the protoss must go colossus to survive. You don't have to get carriers at all in this build, but it's the end game transition from a 2 stargate midgame. You could just pump voidrays and/or more phoenix and push out with a gateway composition.
On March 19 2011 07:33 scatmango2 wrote: You're theory-crafting. This uses a 3 gate sentry expo, not a forge fe, which means you can defend the drops by paying attention.
Can you point out where I said forge fast expand? You act as if arguing with me with your theory-crafting some how makes it more viable... LOL. The proof is in the pudding that you don't see this in pro-play because IT DOES NOT WORK.
You really need to pay attention to the mistakes. You think map-control and the ground army consisting of 8 sentries and many stalkers can't stop a drop from coming?
"You make it sound like this build only consists of air units." < This man is correct.
If you were 4000 masters for real, you would read and pay attention carefully to what this build has, which is a 3 gate sentry expand army, capable of defending from overlords if you pay attention with observers, hallucination, etc. 3 gate sentry expos has constant hallucination scouting, what makes you think we can't scout 200000 overlords coming towards our base?[/QUOTE]
Not to mention phoenix constantly flying around the map and pylons around the map :D
On March 19 2011 08:11 GoldenH wrote: Looks like you're doing some experimenting, good luck. At higher levels I think you'll discover that hydras really aren't a problem, the problem is corruptor mixes and roach timings. Here's a similar thread I posted a while back. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186599
Ya I definitely feel that corrupter roach timings can be quite effective, but how would a corrupter roach timing do against a gateway/voidray composition? Considering normally when people make voidrays they aren't working on upgrades for them. I'll check out that thread for sure :D
Well corruptor/roach isn't much of a problem, in fact, that's pretty much the best thing for you if you're building void rays, the thing is that there are timings with just roaches, or roach/hydra mixes, or going hydra then switching to corruptors, that can be hard to scout and deal with when your core unit takes 2 whole minutes to produce.
I'm pretty sure you don't understand. The build has a lot of flexibility based on what you are scouting. Having a build where you just blindly go any unit is pretty stupid at any level of play. Plus, he's not going carriers until his third is up and the timings that you are talking about seem to be well before that.
On March 19 2011 08:53 mamuto wrote: Okay, so I loaded up a custom game with a buddy who offraced as zerg for me. We didn't play seriously, he wanted to see this strategy I've been raving so much about today. I tried getting 25+ phoenix like I posted earlier, and its just a hard number to hit. I did have 20-22 constantly (losing a couple to spore/hydra) and
oh. my. god. It completely destroys everything other than a 50 hydra ball.
I flew into a cloud of overlords and they all died. I didn't attack move, i was just flying away from hydra/corruptor. They melted. I was constantly supply capping my friend and he was 30-40 under the cap too.
I tried the larva killing trick, and 20 phoenix make short work of it. I am not sure, but it seems like you dont even need the +1 air attack to damage the larva (you are guaranteed 1 damage no matter the armor amount). Not too sure about this, maybe someone can confirm.
This is far more deadly than a muta ball harass. I could outrun his hydras on creep, and his corruptors. I hit his 3rd, natural, and main with minimal losses other than to spore crawlers. Now, I'm sure a masters/pro will be able to split his army properly to defend everywhere, but if you got 20 phoenix up against 5-10 hydras, lift those bad boys up. Or hit the main with air, and the 3rd with zealots. Seriously, 20 phoenix is brutal. Very quick to get them, too. And I noticed I was floating gas more than minerals, but that might be because I wasn't upgrading consistently.
Problems arose in big battles. he had pure hydra corruptor (max upgrades) vs. my archon/void/carrier and it stomped me. He still had about 6-7 hydras left over and I had nothing.
Hierarch, what do you think about HT's? You're getting charge as soon as possible already, HT's will be very effective against pure hydra balls, corruptors are useless, and something like infestors can and will be feedback'd. I guess it'd depend on what the zerg chooses to do, but mass hydra/corruptor is not pleasant to deal with. You can always morph into archons, too.
A bit off from your general strategy, but something like a zealot/HT/voidray/phoenix mix (with 20+ phoenix) might be totally killer.
Thoughts?
I am extremely intrigued about the 15-20 phoenix ball, and plan on trying it out tonight. I feel that a super late game transition into HT was a mass corrupter hydra ball would be worth it. I'll have to experiment with it more and then I can comment on it further.
So can someone who thinks this is a completely retarded build and will never work give some sort of insight into how to stop it? Instead of just saying its bullshit...
Even if the initial harass does no damage, with cannons and ff it is hard to attack into a turtling protoss (if your not all ining). The only headway I've made is to get Carapace upgrades for air. Other than that this is as bad as the colossus ball.
On March 19 2011 08:56 CapnAmerica wrote: You guys keep saying that the hydralisks can't reach the carriers... but they're not supposed to. You get equal results fighting Carriers with Hydras if you just let them sit back and auto-target interceptors -- chasing after the ships themselves is stupid.
Anyone trying to micro their hydras INTO the enemy army is asking to die. Same as running them at banelings.
That aside, this strategy looks workable but nowhere near as good as you say. A smart player building corruptors will not simply let you harass his mineral line while his corruptors are far away... he'll just stay nearby and if you try to attack him anywhere he'll be there already, simply because his base area is smaller than the area you have to cover going around the corruptors, and phoenix aren't THAT fast.
I wouldn't even think about challenging the Protoss for air dominance if they did a build like this, past maybe killing the phoenix off with Corruptors. I'd probably just go roach/hydra and push into them and fall back before FFs become a problem. Ideally I could expand behind the pressure or position overlords for, say, nydusing their main with Zerglings or doing an actual drop when your phoenix have to fall back or you die. The phoenix can't be everywhere at once, though they are quite good wherever they happen to be.
The idea of sending DTs to bases that already have detection is also quite flawed -- a smart Zerg will send enough lings to the base while running his queen/drones away from your DTs, which would probably result in rather lackluster ground harassment. The phoenix will stay useful for a bit, though.
The only REAL problem I see with this build is that it relies completely on your opponent mucking up to get ahead. If they play very cautiously and don't lose much to your harass (which is 100% possible) you will outright lose when they get enough units. Same thing goes for early aggression leading into bigger attacks that just force you out of this build before you get any mileage out of the Stargates. Any time I see a Protoss player make a Void Ray I giggle with delight, because I can do heavy damage to him unless he turtles, hard, with lings.
If the zerg is turtling than I am free to expand, which is a "win" in my eyes, and it also gives me even more map dominance. Corrupters have a movement speed of 2.95 while phoenix have a movement speed of 4.25, that's quite a bit faster, while I can go pick up drones and kill them quickly, even if your corrupters get a volley off they don't get bonus damage and the phoenix run away.
I do feel that nydus and drop play could be strong against this, but phoenix really are just that fast where they can be from one place to another, to go from offense to defense just like that.
I don't understand why a zerg would be making lings against a zealot heavy ground army with a heavy air composition? If I see zerglings I'll just push, and theres not much a zergling army can do, I also heavily canon my 3rd and 4th bases with 5-6 canons.
The DT's are mostly for patroling possible expos from the zerg, they can just win the game by killing enough drones. I only make 4-6 per game to harass, but the access to DT's also gives me access to Archons.
The phoenix come fast enough and in a good amount where they are guaranteed to do some damage, they are too fast and kill drones too fast for them not to do enough damage, even if they force 2-3 spores at each base that's economic damage, while i can shift into voidray production and take a 3rd base. Also this build is a turtle type build like the colossus build, but it allows phoenix to give you something to do while turtling.
Just my thoughts, but you bring up some valid points.
On March 19 2011 06:49 Gemini_19 wrote: So upon seeing this thread, I became inspired to try a little bit of air play in my PvZ.
Here's my first go at it. I didn't feel comfortable doing a 100% change in play just because I'm not sure how well it would work, so you will see some colossus and blink stalkers etc.
I open with a 3gate expand with phoenix's to scout/harass and eventually get void rays and then carriers once I get 3 bases.
I didn't go hardcore into the air play, but I continued to use it throughout the game. I found that the carriers seem to be more effective than I had perceived.
Take it for what it's worth. Some more discussion for what it may be like used at a more top level of play.
Both players are 3200+ Masters.
I also use blink stalkers in my air composition, but if you had stopped colossus, carrier production and gone like 3 stargate voidray you would have won since he started going corrupter/roach/ling. Also the 2nd forge and templar archives were wasted buildings I feel. Also when zerg was trying to push with roaches you could have lifted 3-4 of them with your idle phoenix and just gotten free kills.
Another key point is if you had gone up to 6-7 phoenix instead of the 4-5 you had you could have killed all those queens instead of having to run away. I also take my 3rd a lot sooner than youdid, but that could have been due to that pesky zergling. Another point is that if you had kept up the air upgrades your carriers and voidrays would have done even better, the voidrays especially vs those corrupters. But glad to see people are trying it out :D
Yeah, like I said it was my first time trying so everything you said I noticed afterwords and realized how much better it would have been.
The late 3rd was cause of that zergling, so that was just unfortunate.
I wanted to get more air upgrades but just straight up forgot...haha.
The templar archives was just to have just in case. When you get maxed, usually it's a good thing to just throw down everything you don't yet have just to have it. I had the money to do it so I did. I could have obviously done without it tho as I didn't use it. It was more of a "better safe than sorry" aspect since I had the money at the time and it never really hurt me.
The 2nd forge I feel helped. Let me get to 2-2 faster and I possibly would have lost the big battle with the large amount of brood lords had I not had the 2-2, however I don't know the timings of any of that, I'm just speculating.
I'll continue trying it out tho I'll update here if you'd like.
Please update me of course, also my favorite part of this build is that zerg T3 actually cannot touch protoss air, Voidrays get 2 bonuses vs ultras and broodlords, (massive and armored). The templar archives I feel would have been justified if you'd upgraded storm and the amulet
I feel with constant upgrades from 1 forge and 1 cyber core constantly chronoboosted can be effective.
well i don't see how this build deals with harass since obviously your Air fleet needs to stick together. i mean let say your opponent throws 20-30 zerglings at you how are you defending your natural? are you totally walling of and hope for canons?
i somewhat doubt that this is able to secure you a 3rd safely.
On March 19 2011 09:40 freetgy wrote: well i don't see how this build deals with harass since obviously your Air fleet needs to stick together. i mean let say your opponent throws 20-30 zerglings at you how are you defending your natural? are you totally walling of and hope for canons?
i somewhat doubt that this is able to secure you a 3rd safely.
20-30 zerglings vs canons, 10-15 zealots? My phoenix don't need to be with the rest of my air fleet since they are so fast they can go from offense to defense. I set up a sim city at my natural, not a full wall off. Also my 3rd gets canons to zone the entrance that's not near my base.
As tasteless says "These are Starcraft II canons and are sooooooooooooo much better than BW canons."
This is an amazing build, I used this the first time yesterday and I downright destroyed a zerg(He did exactly what you said, got confused and made mass corrupters who simply died to a medium void ray ball). Carriers with 2/2 just destroy the ground and the zealots buffer very nicely.
On March 19 2011 08:56 CapnAmerica wrote: You guys keep saying that the hydralisks can't reach the carriers... but they're not supposed to. You get equal results fighting Carriers with Hydras if you just let them sit back and auto-target interceptors -- chasing after the ships themselves is stupid.
Anyone trying to micro their hydras INTO the enemy army is asking to die. Same as running them at banelings.
That aside, this strategy looks workable but nowhere near as good as you say. A smart player building corruptors will not simply let you harass his mineral line while his corruptors are far away... he'll just stay nearby and if you try to attack him anywhere he'll be there already, simply because his base area is smaller than the area you have to cover going around the corruptors, and phoenix aren't THAT fast.
I wouldn't even think about challenging the Protoss for air dominance if they did a build like this, past maybe killing the phoenix off with Corruptors. I'd probably just go roach/hydra and push into them and fall back before FFs become a problem. Ideally I could expand behind the pressure or position overlords for, say, nydusing their main with Zerglings or doing an actual drop when your phoenix have to fall back or you die. The phoenix can't be everywhere at once, though they are quite good wherever they happen to be.
The idea of sending DTs to bases that already have detection is also quite flawed -- a smart Zerg will send enough lings to the base while running his queen/drones away from your DTs, which would probably result in rather lackluster ground harassment. The phoenix will stay useful for a bit, though.
The only REAL problem I see with this build is that it relies completely on your opponent mucking up to get ahead. If they play very cautiously and don't lose much to your harass (which is 100% possible) you will outright lose when they get enough units. Same thing goes for early aggression leading into bigger attacks that just force you out of this build before you get any mileage out of the Stargates. Any time I see a Protoss player make a Void Ray I giggle with delight, because I can do heavy damage to him unless he turtles, hard, with lings.
If the zerg is turtling than I am free to expand, which is a "win" in my eyes, and it also gives me even more map dominance. Corrupters have a movement speed of 2.95 while phoenix have a movement speed of 4.25, that's quite a bit faster, while I can go pick up drones and kill them quickly, even if your corrupters get a volley off they don't get bonus damage and the phoenix run away.
I do feel that nydus and drop play could be strong against this, but phoenix really are just that fast where they can be from one place to another, to go from offense to defense just like that.
I don't understand why a zerg would be making lings against a zealot heavy ground army with a heavy air composition? If I see zerglings I'll just push, and theres not much a zergling army can do, I also heavily canon my 3rd and 4th bases with 5-6 canons.
The DT's are mostly for patroling possible expos from the zerg, they can just win the game by killing enough drones. I only make 4-6 per game to harass, but the access to DT's also gives me access to Archons.
The phoenix come fast enough and in a good amount where they are guaranteed to do some damage, they are too fast and kill drones too fast for them not to do enough damage, even if they force 2-3 spores at each base that's economic damage, while i can shift into voidray production and take a 3rd base. Also this build is a turtle type build like the colossus build, but it allows phoenix to give you something to do while turtling.
Just my thoughts, but you bring up some valid points.
Point by point:
So the Phoenix are about 50% faster when accelerated than Corruptors -- it still doesn't negate the fact that the Corruptors have to travel a MUCH shorter distance to cover mineral lines, which they should be doing. If the Zerg is turtling, they should still be expanding and making harassment units if possible (Zerglings).
You don't make Zerglings to directly combat his army, you do it to harass. Zerglings are faster than Phoenix and can wreak havoc on a base or mineral line even if you simcity fairly well if Nydus Worms are used.
Cannons take time to warp-in, a pro-active Zerg will be hitting before those cannons are morphed in while still focusing on building up an attack force -- with proper control it eventually reaches a point where you have to move out with some of your army and you will probably lose it with your weaker ground army if the Zerg pushes at all.
DTs are fantastic, but with detection already out a Zerg who is on the ball will be saving those units from dying in the first place (because the red dots are kind of obvious on the minimap) and killing the DTs before they do much damage to your buildings.
Phoenix harass doesn't come until after the expansion is up, so standard Roach/Hydra play would already have Hydra tech available to deal with early Phoenix harass (before the 3rd round or so of Phoenix popped) and if you hit later there could already be a timing push on your base with Roach/Hydra before your harass did much damage. Hiding the Phoenix and surprising your opponent is the only way to guarantee damage in that situation.
Also, the spores aren't useless because you plan to make DTs later. :< This build will definitely punish unprepared Zergs HARD, but if they scout it a lot of its value is lost.
On March 18 2011 14:21 oOOoOphidian wrote: Mutas are actually extremely good against Phoenix as long as there are a decent number of them. Definitely not worth dismissing that.
Good build, though. I've long thought that Carriers were incredibly underused, especially given the huge delays that Phoenix builds can cause in Zerg's ability to mass and push out.
If I see mutas being made I can outproduce zerg and keep air dominance with 2 chronoboosted stargate phoenix, maybe not worth dismissing entirely, but to be fair like 90% of zergs won't bother with the investment into mutas if they see 4-5 phoenix already. Thanks for the input though, but do you think a zerg could fight for air dominance against phoenix? Even if they did get equal numbers how would zerg hold off a push of zealot/sentry/stalker/phoenix?
A lot of it depends on differences in upgrades (double core + chrono boost can let Protoss get ahead on air ups). Guardian shield obviously helps a lot too.
If someone was already planning a muta/ling build they might not really switch out of it even if they see phoenix, because your build doesn't exactly rush for phoenix. Worth practicing against muta/ling players, especially because many people seem to think the only answer to that is 6-gate timing attacks...
I dont know if anyone has already said this but recently, Kiwikaki used carriers against painuser (i believe) and won on terminus. Cant find the replay but he uses carriers well and wins
All joking aside though, I have a couple questions to ask you coming from a Zerg perspective:
It seems that phoenix play will prompt the Zerg to make spore crawlers, so how effective is your DT harass, as the Zerg will most likely have detection up?
how would this deal with infestor/hydra play? It seems a well-placed FG can put a serious dent in your phoenix numbers if there are hydra around, same thing with the interceptors.
I thought about that, as it seems counter intuitive to run DT's into spores, but sending 1-2 to a couple later expansions while engaging their main army leaves just a queen and drones to fight a DT or two and the DT will kill the queen and then just kill drones, just because it is detected doesn't mean it can't do damage. This will force spine crawlers also which just adds more static defense at the cost of 2-4 DT's, also DT's can patrol bases that haven't been taken by zerg and kill drones attempting to build there, delaying expos.
Infester/Hydra seems interesting, i never thought about FG, that would definitely be a good idea vs phoenix since they are so fast and can run. I haven't seen FG vs interecepters, how does it work? Do the intercepters just sit there and not shoot? Or do they sit there and shoot? If it's the former then FG could be amazing vs this.
Yeah, I think infestors would be a very good response to this, coupled with hydras. I think it would work similar to the way infestors are used in ZvZ against mutas. You use FG on the phoenix, and then kill them with your hydras that outrange them while they're rooted. I feel this would shut down a lot of your harass capabilities once infestors are up. FG can also be used in a pinch against DTs if you don't have any detection around too.
I also think in the late game it would continue to be effective. FG won't kill the interceptors by itself, but it will deal quite a bit of damage, and again, hydra's will outrange the interceptors, allowing them to kill them without taking damage. This would also enable the zerg to stop the zealots and kite them.
So, it's pretty micro intensive, but a Zerg could use FG to fight this effectively. I guess you could counteract this a bit by splitting you phoenix into smaller groups, and spreading your zealots, but how would you deal with heavy infestor/hydra play?
I apologize in advance for the likely scenario where I repeat what someone else has said; I didn't read all 7 pages.
If I didn't see colossus in production, I would rejoice as my hydra baneling army rolled through yours and your base. In all seriousness, how would you respond to banelings? I would seriously morph 30~ banes and roll under your army, through your expos, with an army of 25 2/2 Hydras in case I need to engage your airdeathball. I don't think Hydras are as delicate as people say they are. 20~ Hydras (especially 2/2) are going to tear through your voids/phoenixes so fast, I don't even care if your phoenixes steal 5 of them. Carriers I don't really know how to respond to, besides just ignoring them since they move about the same as Hydras off creep. Make a round of roaches or something and run right by. How do you deal with harass? As in, lings/mutas poking your expos/base. Probably the standard response of cannons, right?
If I give others the benefit of the doubt regarding hydras (which I should, I am by no means an expert on what hydras can/can't do), then I'll take an army comp of corrupter/ling/bling/roach with nydus or drop play. I feel this build is like Terran's mech style, really scary, if it could ever catch me. Also, have fun getting up 4 bases for your incredibly gas-heavy composition.
On March 19 2011 10:56 DiaBoLuS wrote: wanna see you holding any roachpressure with this build, even with voidrays its kindof hard.
hydradrops counter it, you need charge for the zealots.
its a nice strat if your zerg-opponent gives you time to max to lots of carriers and doesnt scout it, otherwise it fails imo.
He does get charge, and it just opens as a 3-gate expand into stargates. If he scouts roach pressure, he can react to it as well.
I don't know why people think this is a carrier rush. -.-
na, its not a rush obv.
but that playstyle needs tons and tons of gas - but you need lots of sentrys @ that " 3gate fe " opening to be any solid vs roach baneling or MASS speedling with dronestop. if your phenix harass fails (1 spore 1 queen each base) and he drones up like a madman, you are sooo far behind.
and then going for carrier chargelot? gambleplay, even from 3 bases (dno how you will EVER secure a 3rd even with superior air). he scouts carrier --> you lost in most of the cases. a nice funstrat for tours vs worse players or up to low master :=)
On March 19 2011 08:56 CapnAmerica wrote: You guys keep saying that the hydralisks can't reach the carriers... but they're not supposed to. You get equal results fighting Carriers with Hydras if you just let them sit back and auto-target interceptors -- chasing after the ships themselves is stupid.
Anyone trying to micro their hydras INTO the enemy army is asking to die. Same as running them at banelings.
That aside, this strategy looks workable but nowhere near as good as you say. A smart player building corruptors will not simply let you harass his mineral line while his corruptors are far away... he'll just stay nearby and if you try to attack him anywhere he'll be there already, simply because his base area is smaller than the area you have to cover going around the corruptors, and phoenix aren't THAT fast.
I wouldn't even think about challenging the Protoss for air dominance if they did a build like this, past maybe killing the phoenix off with Corruptors. I'd probably just go roach/hydra and push into them and fall back before FFs become a problem. Ideally I could expand behind the pressure or position overlords for, say, nydusing their main with Zerglings or doing an actual drop when your phoenix have to fall back or you die. The phoenix can't be everywhere at once, though they are quite good wherever they happen to be.
The idea of sending DTs to bases that already have detection is also quite flawed -- a smart Zerg will send enough lings to the base while running his queen/drones away from your DTs, which would probably result in rather lackluster ground harassment. The phoenix will stay useful for a bit, though.
The only REAL problem I see with this build is that it relies completely on your opponent mucking up to get ahead. If they play very cautiously and don't lose much to your harass (which is 100% possible) you will outright lose when they get enough units. Same thing goes for early aggression leading into bigger attacks that just force you out of this build before you get any mileage out of the Stargates. Any time I see a Protoss player make a Void Ray I giggle with delight, because I can do heavy damage to him unless he turtles, hard, with lings.
If the zerg is turtling than I am free to expand, which is a "win" in my eyes, and it also gives me even more map dominance. Corrupters have a movement speed of 2.95 while phoenix have a movement speed of 4.25, that's quite a bit faster, while I can go pick up drones and kill them quickly, even if your corrupters get a volley off they don't get bonus damage and the phoenix run away.
I do feel that nydus and drop play could be strong against this, but phoenix really are just that fast where they can be from one place to another, to go from offense to defense just like that.
I don't understand why a zerg would be making lings against a zealot heavy ground army with a heavy air composition? If I see zerglings I'll just push, and theres not much a zergling army can do, I also heavily canon my 3rd and 4th bases with 5-6 canons.
The DT's are mostly for patroling possible expos from the zerg, they can just win the game by killing enough drones. I only make 4-6 per game to harass, but the access to DT's also gives me access to Archons.
The phoenix come fast enough and in a good amount where they are guaranteed to do some damage, they are too fast and kill drones too fast for them not to do enough damage, even if they force 2-3 spores at each base that's economic damage, while i can shift into voidray production and take a 3rd base. Also this build is a turtle type build like the colossus build, but it allows phoenix to give you something to do while turtling.
Just my thoughts, but you bring up some valid points.
Point by point:
So the Phoenix are about 50% faster when accelerated than Corruptors -- it still doesn't negate the fact that the Corruptors have to travel a MUCH shorter distance to cover mineral lines, which they should be doing. If the Zerg is turtling, they should still be expanding and making harassment units if possible (Zerglings).
You don't make Zerglings to directly combat his army, you do it to harass. Zerglings are faster than Phoenix and can wreak havoc on a base or mineral line even if you simcity fairly well if Nydus Worms are used.
Cannons take time to warp-in, a pro-active Zerg will be hitting before those cannons are morphed in while still focusing on building up an attack force -- with proper control it eventually reaches a point where you have to move out with some of your army and you will probably lose it with your weaker ground army if the Zerg pushes at all.
DTs are fantastic, but with detection already out a Zerg who is on the ball will be saving those units from dying in the first place (because the red dots are kind of obvious on the minimap) and killing the DTs before they do much damage to your buildings.
Phoenix harass doesn't come until after the expansion is up, so standard Roach/Hydra play would already have Hydra tech available to deal with early Phoenix harass (before the 3rd round or so of Phoenix popped) and if you hit later there could already be a timing push on your base with Roach/Hydra before your harass did much damage. Hiding the Phoenix and surprising your opponent is the only way to guarantee damage in that situation.
Also, the spores aren't useless because you plan to make DTs later. :< This build will definitely punish unprepared Zergs HARD, but if they scout it a lot of its value is lost.
Point by point response:
If both players are turtling, and macroing well, the protoss players army will eventually just be stronger than the zergs, since zerg T3 cannot hit air units, it lets protoss just feel comfortable, and in the mid/late game even if you are denying me with corrupters it's still worth it to fly 6 phoenix in, and pick up 2-3 drones at each expo, if I lose phoenix then i just replace them with other units.
If I keep a couple sentrys and zealots to block a choke while my canons warp in I can successfully take my 3rd. It would be silly of me to just warp in canons and hope zerg isn't paying attention.
If zerg is engaging me, than that is what I want, I get them off creep, can reinforce faster and have canons. If zerg waits for me to engage I just have a better lategame army due to upgrades, and the nature of zerg and protoss units.
I usually only make 3-4 DT's for harassment purposes, i send 1 to each possible expo spot, and have them patrol where a hatchery would go, it just delays zerg expos for a while, or they catch a hatch building and force a cancel, then i go hide it in a corner. Otherwise having access to DT's gives me Archons which are amazing vs zerg.
If they are going for roach/hydra right away i can still use the phoenixes proactively and kill overlords on the map, pick up units at towers and if I see stray groups of hydras I can just pick them up and kill them, if they go for a timing push, it will be reinforced by zerglings or roaches since hydras are too slow, and i can use ff's/voidrays/gateway units/canons + bringing my phoenix back to lift some units if need be. Hydras are just too slow off creep to do enough damage imo.
DT's hold value even if they are scouted, throughout the game i can just spend 125/125 and see if the zerg is paying attention, and even without that I can pay 250/250 for a unit that does 47 damage to air and ground with a slight splash.
im glad more toss playera are opting for the double stargate play it makes my 10 min hydra speedling rush work like magic. you say ff will hold that push off but hydras with range can still do damage over the ff and rip apart any army you have at that point. whenever i spot this type of play i do that rush and dont lose.
On March 19 2011 10:56 DiaBoLuS wrote: wanna see you holding any roachpressure with this build, even with voidrays its kindof hard.
hydradrops counter it, you need charge for the zealots.
its a nice strat if your zerg-opponent gives you time to max to lots of carriers and doesnt scout it, otherwise it fails imo.
I don't need to build carriers which iswhy this strategy is nice, with a colossus build you need to make colossus., 3 voidrays/ff's/canons/gateway units can hold any roach pressure and it's quite easy to see if roaches are coming since phoenix are flying around the map.
Also i get charge relatively fast, and a pure hydra drop is a lot to invest for a zerg, and i can just send gateway units + phoenix todeal with it since i can lift 6-8 of the hydras and have my gateway units close on em since they will be slow.
All joking aside though, I have a couple questions to ask you coming from a Zerg perspective:
It seems that phoenix play will prompt the Zerg to make spore crawlers, so how effective is your DT harass, as the Zerg will most likely have detection up?
how would this deal with infestor/hydra play? It seems a well-placed FG can put a serious dent in your phoenix numbers if there are hydra around, same thing with the interceptors.
I thought about that, as it seems counter intuitive to run DT's into spores, but sending 1-2 to a couple later expansions while engaging their main army leaves just a queen and drones to fight a DT or two and the DT will kill the queen and then just kill drones, just because it is detected doesn't mean it can't do damage. This will force spine crawlers also which just adds more static defense at the cost of 2-4 DT's, also DT's can patrol bases that haven't been taken by zerg and kill drones attempting to build there, delaying expos.
Infester/Hydra seems interesting, i never thought about FG, that would definitely be a good idea vs phoenix since they are so fast and can run. I haven't seen FG vs interecepters, how does it work? Do the intercepters just sit there and not shoot? Or do they sit there and shoot? If it's the former then FG could be amazing vs this.
Yeah, I think infestors would be a very good response to this, coupled with hydras. I think it would work similar to the way infestors are used in ZvZ against mutas. You use FG on the phoenix, and then kill them with your hydras that outrange them while they're rooted. I feel this would shut down a lot of your harass capabilities once infestors are up. FG can also be used in a pinch against DTs if you don't have any detection around too.
I also think in the late game it would continue to be effective. FG won't kill the interceptors by itself, but it will deal quite a bit of damage, and again, hydra's will outrange the interceptors, allowing them to kill them without taking damage. This would also enable the zerg to stop the zealots and kite them.
So, it's pretty micro intensive, but a Zerg could use FG to fight this effectively. I guess you could counteract this a bit by splitting you phoenix into smaller groups, and spreading your zealots, but how would you deal with heavy infestor/hydra play?
No idea lol, only experience will give us the answers to that one, I would just have to play vs it to understand how effective it would be, in theory it sounds like a solid strategy to use against this build.
On March 19 2011 10:36 Discount_Glowstix wrote: I dont know if anyone has already said this but recently, Kiwikaki used carriers against painuser (i believe) and won on terminus. Cant find the replay but he uses carriers well and wins
On March 18 2011 14:21 oOOoOphidian wrote: Mutas are actually extremely good against Phoenix as long as there are a decent number of them. Definitely not worth dismissing that.
Good build, though. I've long thought that Carriers were incredibly underused, especially given the huge delays that Phoenix builds can cause in Zerg's ability to mass and push out.
If I see mutas being made I can outproduce zerg and keep air dominance with 2 chronoboosted stargate phoenix, maybe not worth dismissing entirely, but to be fair like 90% of zergs won't bother with the investment into mutas if they see 4-5 phoenix already. Thanks for the input though, but do you think a zerg could fight for air dominance against phoenix? Even if they did get equal numbers how would zerg hold off a push of zealot/sentry/stalker/phoenix?
A lot of it depends on differences in upgrades (double core + chrono boost can let Protoss get ahead on air ups). Guardian shield obviously helps a lot too.
If someone was already planning a muta/ling build they might not really switch out of it even if they see phoenix, because your build doesn't exactly rush for phoenix. Worth practicing against muta/ling players, especially because many people seem to think the only answer to that is 6-gate timing attacks...
I agree, definitely worth practicing against, although I feel a gateway/phoenix push just would dominate muta/ling.
On March 19 2011 11:32 uobradbury wrote: im glad more toss playera are opting for the double stargate play it makes my 10 min hydra speedling rush work like magic. you say ff will hold that push off but hydras with range can still do damage over the ff and rip apart any army you have at that point. whenever i spot this type of play i do that rush and dont lose.
How many hydras do you have? I can't come up with a response until I know aroundwhat time do you attack and with how many units.
On March 19 2011 10:56 DiaBoLuS wrote: wanna see you holding any roachpressure with this build, even with voidrays its kindof hard.
hydradrops counter it, you need charge for the zealots.
its a nice strat if your zerg-opponent gives you time to max to lots of carriers and doesnt scout it, otherwise it fails imo.
He does get charge, and it just opens as a 3-gate expand into stargates. If he scouts roach pressure, he can react to it as well.
I don't know why people think this is a carrier rush. -.-
na, its not a rush obv.
but that playstyle needs tons and tons of gas - but you need lots of sentrys @ that " 3gate fe " opening to be any solid vs roach baneling or MASS speedling with dronestop. if your phenix harass fails (1 spore 1 queen each base) and he drones up like a madman, you are sooo far behind.
and then going for carrier chargelot? gambleplay, even from 3 bases (dno how you will EVER secure a 3rd even with superior air). he scouts carrier --> you lost in most of the cases. a nice funstrat for tours vs worse players or up to low master :=)
1 spore/1 queen at each base doesn't stop phoenix fly bys I can just ignore them and kill 4-5 drones and fly away and let my shields come back, 1 queen/1 spore is a good way to lose drones, and wouldn't deter me from harassing you one bit. I also don't have any problems with gas consumption since I only make 4-6 sentrys instead of 6-10 like normal 3 gate expands.
Mass speedling just can't crack a sim city defense with canons/ff's and voidrays, they will do damage but not enough to equate doing the attack, If I see pressure coming i stop making phoenix and chrono voidrays, Roaches, banelings, speedlings all have this one problem against voidrays (they can't attack up). Once I defend you're on two base at most with full saturation or 3 bases with less than full saturation and I just counter push you with voidray/gateway army and since you went roach/speedling/baneling you can't defend vs voidrays, I can also use the 2-4 phoenix i did make to lift your queens if you try to use them for defense.
If he drones like a madman and I see this I just go kill him with a 2 base timing with voidray/gateway.
you will be stuck on 2 base forever like that. hydradrop is still a nice counter to it, you can hardly apply any pressure, 2 base massling or blingbust seems quite strong against it - unless you open with 5 sentry as normal 3 gate fe... but rly - then youll just have carrier instead of colossus in your lategame mix - even more immobile vs constant roachdrops on each bases [im you make it to 3!] and the mix itself is not stronger then the colossi one.
dont think your strat is any solid, unscouted and even less scouted.
On March 19 2011 10:59 carbonaceous wrote: Yes! Anything to see carriers used properly. Wonder if we'll ever see them again in PvT like in bw. One can hope...
They're my go-to unit for PvT mech. Absolutely rapes.
On March 19 2011 11:14 Wintertime wrote: I apologize in advance for the likely scenario where I repeat what someone else has said; I didn't read all 7 pages.
If I didn't see colossus in production, I would rejoice as my hydra baneling army rolled through yours and your base. In all seriousness, how would you respond to banelings? I would seriously morph 30~ banes and roll under your army, through your expos, with an army of 25 2/2 Hydras in case I need to engage your airdeathball. I don't think Hydras are as delicate as people say they are. 20~ Hydras (especially 2/2) are going to tear through your voids/phoenixes so fast, I don't even care if your phoenixes steal 5 of them. Carriers I don't really know how to respond to, besides just ignoring them since they move about the same as Hydras off creep. Make a round of roaches or something and run right by. How do you deal with harass? As in, lings/mutas poking your expos/base. Probably the standard response of cannons, right?
If I give others the benefit of the doubt regarding hydras (which I should, I am by no means an expert on what hydras can/can't do), then I'll take an army comp of corrupter/ling/bling/roach with nydus or drop play. I feel this build is like Terran's mech style, really scary, if it could ever catch me. Also, have fun getting up 4 bases for your incredibly gas-heavy composition.
I can support this build with 3 bases fine, only the upgrades, air units are gas intensive which is why I end up having so many zealots, I honestly haven't dealt with mass mass banelings to give a proper response. Hydra baneling is insanely gas and larva intensive to sustain, I would most likely respond with getting a few more sentrys for FF's and just pumping voidrays, you would probably do significant damage to my army and base but I have no doubt in my mind that a zealot/stalker/voidray army with good ff's and guardian shield would end up beating a hydra/bling army, and then it's not the easiest army to remake for you, since it is so gas and larva intensive, I can just continue to make zealots, voidrays and counter push. Your hydras used to defend will either shoot the voidrays and get killed by the zealots quite fast or they'll kill the zealots and the voidrays will win. However I'm not entirely sure on that, maybe the baneling, hydra attack would just outright kill me.
Lings get dealt with by warping in zealots/DT's and canons, mutas are almost never made against me, and if they are they will be quite late in the game in which case stalkers, canons can hold them off until i can get a good phoenix count up again, which isn't hard.
I do feel that nydus/drops could be strong, but it's not unwinnable against.
On March 19 2011 11:22 Steel wrote: This is a good metagame build as most people will not expect it, and could be good on large map.
Going to be pretty difficult to deal with corruptor hydra ling because that's what they'll do if they scout it.
How many corrupters do you build? if you don't build enough carriers kill everything in that composition, if you build too many voidrays and gateway units can win, if you don't have enough lings then zealots tear through hydras off creep. It mainly comes down to army compositions and where you're engaging.
On March 19 2011 11:50 DiaBoLuS wrote: can i ask on what lvl you play?
you will be stuck on 2 base forever like that. hydradrop is still a nice counter to it, you can hardly apply any pressure, 2 base massling or blingbust seems quite strong against it - unless you open with 5 sentry as normal 3 gate fe... but rly - then youll just have carrier instead of colossus in your lategame mix - even more immobile vs constant roachdrops on each bases [im you make it to 3!] and the mix itself is not stronger then the colossi one.
dont think your strat is any solid, unscouted and even less scouted.
I don't understand the last line of what you are trying to say, but this build gives me 100% more scouting than zerg, I get to clear the map of stray overlords and pick stuff up off towers. Add observers since I'm not really using my robo for anything else and I have more map awareness and scouting potential than the zerg.
I don't understand why you think i'll be on 2 bases forever, it's really not that hard to secure a 3rd base, and since I have so many extra minerals i can just canon up hard. 3 gate expand builds are not about applying pressure, but this version allows me to harass and keep zerg on the defensive unless they want to lose drones.
I have on many occasion stated that I open with 4-6 sentrys like a normal 3 gate expand, I wouldn't be making carriers if you're roach dropping me, this isn't like a colossus build where it has to have the end game unit, I would just make void rays, drops are pretty expensive for zerg since you have to upgrade speed, drops and every time I clean up a drop you might get some pylons, or gateways but you lose all those units and your overlords, granted that I don't just see it coming in which case you do no damage.
As far as hydra/bling goes..or any combination that includes blings, you take the DTs you were using for harass and morph them into Archons, cause they rip through blings, especially if you have some zealots to soak up some of the damage as well. Archons/Carriers are a pretty lethal combination.
On March 19 2011 12:07 silverhand wrote: As far as hydra/bling goes..or any combination that includes blings, you take the DTs you were using for harass and morph them into Archons, cause they rip through blings, especially if you have some zealots to soak up some of the damage as well. Archons/Carriers are a pretty lethal combination.
Ya, that's another reason to get the Dark shrine, DT's also help against zergling attacks since 2-3 DT's just own lings with canons, those harass attempts won't amount to anything. I didn't think to use archons against banelings, but that makes sense voidray/archon/zealot/stalker/the early sentrys should be able to handle a hydra/bling attack. Thanks :D
This sounds like a variation of what Ace did at IEM. I think (going from memory here) he opened forge expand with 3~ cannons and a few sentries into stargate play (using a void/phoenix to deny any third expansions and using phoenix to harass) and finally into a huge gateway army to finish them off.
This type of strategy feels like the same type of opening (except with 3gate expand which plays it a bit more safe) but cutting down the number of gateway units for more air upgrades to utilize the carrier's amazing scaling in the lategame. It sounds like a great idea, but I'm worried about the overall weakness of the build during the early game - I guess it would have to come down to a high player to determine whether or not these weaknesses can be overcome with execution.
On March 19 2011 12:50 Seagull_ wrote: This sounds like a variation of what Ace did at IEM. I think (going from memory here) he opened forge expand with 3~ cannons and a few sentries into stargate play (using a void/phoenix to deny any third expansions and using phoenix to harass) and finally into a huge gateway army to finish them off.
This type of strategy feels like the same type of opening (except with 3gate expand which plays it a bit more safe) but cutting down the number of gateway units for more air upgrades to utilize the carrier's amazing scaling in the lategame. It sounds like a great idea, but I'm worried about the overall weakness of the build during the early game - I guess it would have to come down to a high player to determine whether or not these weaknesses can be overcome with execution.
Yup, basically making it with a 3rd base up and saturated is the goal, and then I feel the build takes off. But as many people have stated early all ins or super aggressive play could definitely just kill this build, only through experience will people figure out if those types of plays are defendable with tweaks here and there to the build. Thanks for your input :D
Man, whenever one finally gets used to all the crap protoss can throw at you, you guys come up with new ways to FU zerg, why do you have to come up with such scary strategies??? I can attest that carriers are scary to face with zerg, once protoss hit critical mass.
Its good to see suggestions of new builds that dont include colossi. What I dont get is the 3gate into expansion = fast phoenix and map control. By the time you have phoenix out I will allready have hydras and creep spread across half the map and when I scout your phoenix you can bet your ass off that I will do a fast timing attack that will annihilate you before you even get carriers.
I will beat this build 10/10 times unless you harass me with your warpgate units BEFORE getting out phoenixes.
What I fear more is 2gate + stargate into expo where you can harass me much earlier with phoenixes.
On March 19 2011 15:22 DaCruise wrote: Its good to see suggestions of new builds that dont include colossi. What I dont get is the 3gate into expansion = fast phoenix and map control. By the time you have phoenix out I will allready have hydras and creep spread across half the map and when I scout your phoenix you can bet your ass off that I will do a fast timing attack that will annihilate you before you even get carriers.
I will beat this build 10/10 times unless you harass me with your warpgate units BEFORE getting out phoenixes.
What I fear more is 2gate + stargate into expo where you can harass me much earlier with phoenixes.
You blindly make hydras? How many hydras will you have and at what time are you attempting to attack (off creep since you won't have creep up to my base)? Also I don't even get carriers until my 3rd base is up so that won't be a problem.
On March 19 2011 15:30 Aterons_toss wrote: What do you do if the zerg just produces corruptors and some mutas to pick off the zealots :p ?
Mutas get melted by phoenix/stalkers/voidrays in small numbers which is what it sounds like you're suggesting, also zealots don't really die that fast from mutalisk fire, is that what you meant?
I don't see carriers ever coming into the metagame of pvz. It's just that voidrays are better as they don't take bonus damage from corruptors. Also the thread is largely about phoenix-based armies - as we've seen from moon vs ace in the finals of iem, hydra corruptor armies crush that pretty badly. And if zerg makes an infestor you can no longer harass with the phoenixes. Opting for a 3 gate expansion before starting the stargates is really...inefficient. Not to mention that it relies too much on zerg not scouting them in time.
On March 19 2011 15:41 Splendour wrote: I don't see carriers ever coming into the metagame of pvz. It's just that voidrays are better as they don't take bonus damage from corruptors. Also the thread is largely about phoenix-based armies - as we've seen from moon vs ace in the finals of iem, hydra corruptor armies crush that pretty badly. And if zerg makes an infestor you can no longer harass with the phoenixes. Opting for a 3 gate expansion before starting the stargates is really...inefficient. Not to mention that it relies too much on zerg not scouting them in time.
Where in my posts did I say anything about phoenix based armys? Other players have been talking about phoenix balls, but I just use them to consistently scout and keep zerg off the map. I make about 5-9 in my games and just use them to harass, the only way zerg is going to scout it is to fly an overlord through my base and look for the corner the stargates are in.
If zerg gets an infester and catches me with a fungal and i lose those phoenix it's unfortunate but it's usually going to be after I've accomplished enough damage where my army and economy is strong enough to beat the zerg.
Carriers are a transition because Carrier/Voidray will beat corrupter/hydra Carriers just offer a ton of DPS and they are quite durable.
Also how is opening 3gate into 2 stargates inefficient? It's a safe build that allows for a fast expansion that can defend quick pressure but also gives an option of harassment.
I apologize if someone has asked this in the 9 pages of discussion, but how do you respond to ling/baneling/queen heavy play?
Mass queens will shit on 3/3 max supply air (not saying that's viable at all or that you'd stick with your strat if you saw that), and how do you deal with mass baneling/ling? Do carriers have the dps to stop an attack like this?
Also, how about corrupter/bling/ling/queen or something similar?
On March 19 2011 16:20 michaelhasanalias wrote: I apologize if someone has asked this in the 9 pages of discussion, but how do you respond to ling/baneling/queen heavy play?
Mass queens will shit on 3/3 max supply air (not saying that's viable at all or that you'd stick with your strat if you saw that), and how do you deal with mass baneling/ling? Do carriers have the dps to stop an attack like this?
Also, how about corrupter/bling/ling/queen or something similar?
Thanks for your reply.
ling/baneling queen I'd just respond with a heavy heavy zealot gateway composition with voidrays, 3-4 voidrays with 5-6 phoenix can kill sooooo many queens. Then using ff's to zone the lings and blings then just pull my air units back and let my gateway army kill the queens.
Also mass queens gets destroyed by carrier/voidray, my friend has tried mass mass queen 3-4 times, with like 15+ queens even with transfusions they don't do enough damage fast enough, and they just get melted by carriers.
When are you talking about mass baneling/ling? Like a bust? or a midgame timing?
On March 19 2011 15:22 DaCruise wrote: Its good to see suggestions of new builds that dont include colossi. What I dont get is the 3gate into expansion = fast phoenix and map control. By the time you have phoenix out I will allready have hydras and creep spread across half the map and when I scout your phoenix you can bet your ass off that I will do a fast timing attack that will annihilate you before you even get carriers.
I will beat this build 10/10 times unless you harass me with your warpgate units BEFORE getting out phoenixes.
What I fear more is 2gate + stargate into expo where you can harass me much earlier with phoenixes.
You blindly make hydras? How many hydras will you have and at what time are you attempting to attack (off creep since you won't have creep up to my base)? Also I don't even get carriers until my 3rd base is up so that won't be a problem.
Yeah I always make hydras against toss. Lately I have been skipping roaches completely to get faster lair and more hydras instead. With enough hydras I can attack off creep and still succeed because you wont have that deadly forcefield/colossi combo.
well i don't see you holding any decent early aggression i.e. burrow roach timing you have no scouting info until you get your phoenix, thus never can properly react to what you oponnent may throw at you.
your friend doesn't seem to be an aggressiv type, which allows you to safely expand and transition into air, he then again does the mistake of staying the defender against harass type play.
I want to see you holding an aggressiv gameplay with that before beliving it beeing viable.
On March 19 2011 19:23 freetgy wrote: well i don't see you holding any decent early aggression i.e. burrow roach timing you have no scouting info until you get your phoenix, thus never can properly react to what you oponnent may throw at you.
your friend doesn't seem to be an aggressiv type, which allows you to safely expand and transition into air, he then again does the mistake of staying the defender against harass type play.
I want to see you holding an aggressiv gameplay with that before beliving it beeing viable.
3gate expansions involve getting hallucination in case you didn't know. You can use a hallucinated phoenix, purposefully have it vanish in their vision (so they know what it is) and then come in a little bit later with like 4 real phoenix's and destroy.
Look at my replay on about page 5 for how to deal with holding off roach/ling aggressive openings.
I read through the first 4 Pages on this thread and there was almost no comment on the fact that zerg has infestors!!
I assume a typical game where toss goes 3 gate sentry expand and zerg goes 14 pool 16 hatch 17 gas queen and then get lingspeed and some roaches. If z doenst make any lings but 6-7 roaches and a spine p cant apply any pressure with his zealot sentry army at all so z will get a huge dronelead (when expo is up its like 30-35 probes to 40-50 drones). Zerg will poke with a pair of lings and see army composition. If he doesnt see a good stalker count by the time he will assume robo or stargate (if there are cannons stargate is more likely=- with oversser or overlordspeed he can get a full scout on protoss base. Toss can get hallucination to get a full scout aswell. So both players know what the other is doing by that point (8-9 min or something)
Thats the basis for the midgame where p has the plan to go heavy phenix, voidray into carrier.
I am a 3.5k master zerg and i would do the following: after scouting 2 stargates ill get a 3rd, alot extra queens (i am at 2 or 3 and will get another 4 or 6 or even more if p just masses air and doenst attacks), 4+ infestors, double evo,1 spore each in the minerals (mb another one in the front of my base if i expect voidrays) and spread creep towards my 3rd. Have u ever tried to micro phenix vs infestors ? U wont get even close to the zergs creep cuz one fungal growth can make u loose all your phenix - and if this happens though its game over!! (zerg will take 4th denie your 3rd and will kill u with whatever he likes). 1 Infestor at each base burrowed will just shut down any phenix herass completly and make u loose everything if u dare to get to close to the mineral line even once.
Have u ever tried to use Voidrays vs queens and infestor? Its not a good idea! Queens outrange voidrays and its almost impossible to kill queens with voids only when zerg uses transfuse (assuming something like 5-6 queens vs 4-6 voids). If zerg player casts one fungal on your voidrays the will just die miserable without even fighting back (in the 8 seconds the fungal lasts other infestors can arrive and continue casting it). If u loose your initial voidrays its game over - p wont come back from that.
And on top of that: Chargelots are not as good vs roach or hydra when they have a shitload of mushrooms on theire heads and wont move an inch.
The infestor just couners every single unit of your composition until u get hightemplar or colossus.... Herasse based stargate play gets killed so hard by infestors its not even funny.
I think that 4 phenix herass is a very good opening after forge expand and i think that phenix are a very very strong counter to mutalisks. But mass phenix herassment wont work on zerg that know how to press the f key for inFestor and Fungal.
I dont have any replay cuz no toss ever tried to do that vs me yet. But fell free to challenge me
On March 19 2011 19:23 freetgy wrote: well i don't see you holding any decent early aggression i.e. burrow roach timing you have no scouting info until you get your phoenix, thus never can properly react to what you oponnent may throw at you.
your friend doesn't seem to be an aggressiv type, which allows you to safely expand and transition into air, he then again does the mistake of staying the defender against harass type play.
I want to see you holding an aggressiv gameplay with that before beliving it beeing viable.
Roach burrow timing isn't a problem because canons detect, and since i havedetection, roach burrow timing becomes a slightly better roach push which is easily held off.
Also as Gemini has states hallucination allows for faster scouting, and can throw the opponent off. It also allows you to hallucinate carriers or colossus in the late game.
On March 19 2011 18:56 DiaBoLuS wrote: you can try to defend your build, but it wont work after all on a competetive lvl twice.
Why won't it work twice? It's not like the colossus build where it must follow the same path, it can go into a voidray timing, I could make 1 stargate and switch to colossus, I could go into a gateway timing attack.
On March 19 2011 15:22 DaCruise wrote: Its good to see suggestions of new builds that dont include colossi. What I dont get is the 3gate into expansion = fast phoenix and map control. By the time you have phoenix out I will allready have hydras and creep spread across half the map and when I scout your phoenix you can bet your ass off that I will do a fast timing attack that will annihilate you before you even get carriers.
I will beat this build 10/10 times unless you harass me with your warpgate units BEFORE getting out phoenixes.
What I fear more is 2gate + stargate into expo where you can harass me much earlier with phoenixes.
You blindly make hydras? How many hydras will you have and at what time are you attempting to attack (off creep since you won't have creep up to my base)? Also I don't even get carriers until my 3rd base is up so that won't be a problem.
Yeah I always make hydras against toss. Lately I have been skipping roaches completely to get faster lair and more hydras instead. With enough hydras I can attack off creep and still succeed because you wont have that deadly forcefield/colossi combo.
On March 19 2011 22:54 Herr_Trichter wrote: I read through the first 4 Pages on this thread and there was almost no comment on the fact that zerg has infestors!!
I assume a typical game where toss goes 3 gate sentry expand and zerg goes 14 pool 16 hatch 17 gas queen and then get lingspeed and some roaches. If z doenst make any lings but 6-7 roaches and a spine p cant apply any pressure with his zealot sentry army at all so z will get a huge dronelead (when expo is up its like 30-35 probes to 40-50 drones). Zerg will poke with a pair of lings and see army composition. If he doesnt see a good stalker count by the time he will assume robo or stargate (if there are cannons stargate is more likely=- with oversser or overlordspeed he can get a full scout on protoss base. Toss can get hallucination to get a full scout aswell. So both players know what the other is doing by that point (8-9 min or something)
Thats the basis for the midgame where p has the plan to go heavy phenix, voidray into carrier.
I am a 3.5k master zerg and i would do the following: after scouting 2 stargates ill get a 3rd, alot extra queens (i am at 2 or 3 and will get another 4 or 6 or even more if p just masses air and doenst attacks), 4+ infestors, double evo,1 spore each in the minerals (mb another one in the front of my base if i expect voidrays) and spread creep towards my 3rd. Have u ever tried to micro phenix vs infestors ? U wont get even close to the zergs creep cuz one fungal growth can make u loose all your phenix - and if this happens though its game over!! (zerg will take 4th denie your 3rd and will kill u with whatever he likes). 1 Infestor at each base burrowed will just shut down any phenix herass completly and make u loose everything if u dare to get to close to the mineral line even once.
Have u ever tried to use Voidrays vs queens and infestor? Its not a good idea! Queens outrange voidrays and its almost impossible to kill queens with voids only when zerg uses transfuse (assuming something like 5-6 queens vs 4-6 voids). If zerg player casts one fungal on your voidrays the will just die miserable without even fighting back (in the 8 seconds the fungal lasts other infestors can arrive and continue casting it). If u loose your initial voidrays its game over - p wont come back from that.
And on top of that: Chargelots are not as good vs roach or hydra when they have a shitload of mushrooms on theire heads and wont move an inch.
The infestor just couners every single unit of your composition until u get hightemplar or colossus.... Herasse based stargate play gets killed so hard by infestors its not even funny.
I think that 4 phenix herass is a very good opening after forge expand and i think that phenix are a very very strong counter to mutalisks. But mass phenix herassment wont work on zerg that know how to press the f key for inFestor and Fungal.
I dont have any replay cuz no toss ever tried to do that vs me yet. But fell free to challenge me
On March 19 2011 22:54 Herr_Trichter wrote: I read through the first 4 Pages on this thread and there was almost no comment on the fact that zerg has infestors!!
I assume a typical game where toss goes 3 gate sentry expand and zerg goes 14 pool 16 hatch 17 gas queen and then get lingspeed and some roaches. If z doenst make any lings but 6-7 roaches and a spine p cant apply any pressure with his zealot sentry army at all so z will get a huge dronelead (when expo is up its like 30-35 probes to 40-50 drones). Zerg will poke with a pair of lings and see army composition. If he doesnt see a good stalker count by the time he will assume robo or stargate (if there are cannons stargate is more likely=- with oversser or overlordspeed he can get a full scout on protoss base. Toss can get hallucination to get a full scout aswell. So both players know what the other is doing by that point (8-9 min or something)
Thats the basis for the midgame where p has the plan to go heavy phenix, voidray into carrier.
I am a 3.5k master zerg and i would do the following: after scouting 2 stargates ill get a 3rd, alot extra queens (i am at 2 or 3 and will get another 4 or 6 or even more if p just masses air and doenst attacks), 4+ infestors, double evo,1 spore each in the minerals (mb another one in the front of my base if i expect voidrays) and spread creep towards my 3rd. Have u ever tried to micro phenix vs infestors ? U wont get even close to the zergs creep cuz one fungal growth can make u loose all your phenix - and if this happens though its game over!! (zerg will take 4th denie your 3rd and will kill u with whatever he likes). 1 Infestor at each base burrowed will just shut down any phenix herass completly and make u loose everything if u dare to get to close to the mineral line even once.
Have u ever tried to use Voidrays vs queens and infestor? Its not a good idea! Queens outrange voidrays and its almost impossible to kill queens with voids only when zerg uses transfuse (assuming something like 5-6 queens vs 4-6 voids). If zerg player casts one fungal on your voidrays the will just die miserable without even fighting back (in the 8 seconds the fungal lasts other infestors can arrive and continue casting it). If u loose your initial voidrays its game over - p wont come back from that.
And on top of that: Chargelots are not as good vs roach or hydra when they have a shitload of mushrooms on theire heads and wont move an inch.
The infestor just couners every single unit of your composition until u get hightemplar or colossus.... Herasse based stargate play gets killed so hard by infestors its not even funny.
I think that 4 phenix herass is a very good opening after forge expand and i think that phenix are a very very strong counter to mutalisks. But mass phenix herassment wont work on zerg that know how to press the f key for inFestor and Fungal.
I dont have any replay cuz no toss ever tried to do that vs me yet. But fell free to challenge me
I don't ever poke with my voidrays after the initial one, and at what point can you have infesters out, because from the sounds of your plan you have no anti air except queens until you get the infesters, 5 phoenix and a voidray can kill infinite queens at that point in the game.
Also if I saw infester play, I'd just put up more gateways and do a gateway + voidray push. I do agree that infesters are probably the best counter to stargate harass, but that's a lot of gas to be allocating, and you'll be on 2 bases nonetheless taking a 3rd so your army will be mostly roach/ling otherwise.
On March 20 2011 00:30 Elean wrote: Why not forge FE instead of 3 gate expend ?
I personally am not comfortable forge expanding on most maps due to the ability to just get broken, I feel that a 3gate expand is much safer. Although on a map like terminus I might consider forge expanding.
On March 20 2011 02:37 worldsnap wrote: I can't test this because I'm at work, but does fungal grown affect interceptors?
I'll test it really quick now and get back to you, as long as fungal can hit friendly units XD
otherwise I'm gonna have to wait for someone to get on.
I also added another replay from a ladder game I just did an hour ago, if anyone else is doing this strategy and wants to show replays, either winning or losing then just PM me or post here.
Carriers work out great for Zerg. I've started opening with 3 gate stalkers + expand then straight into carriers.If you can hide your stargates and get 2 carriers out before you attack with a stalker army it really throws your opponent off gaurd and usually results in a win.
On March 20 2011 02:37 worldsnap wrote: I can't test this because I'm at work, but does fungal grown affect interceptors?
After testing, Fungal Growth stops intercepters in mid air, but it doesn't do enough damage with 1 fungal to kill them. However it only hits like 3-5 intercepters on average per fungal, most i hit with one was 6. But it definitely adds some possibilities. :D
On March 20 2011 02:47 -Jacob- wrote: Carriers work out great for Zerg. I've started opening with 3 gate stalkers + expand then straight into carriers.If you can hide your stargates and get 2 carriers out before you attack with a stalker army it really throws your opponent off gaurd and usually results in a win.
I tend to go for void rays in the mid game as i like to take a 3rd instead of going for a two base timing, but hiding 2 stargates and doing a 2 base timing with 2 carriers and a gateway army could be interesting.
I think protoss dont realize how good carriers are against zerg yet. I mean if ur on 3 base why not think about a stalker/sentry colossi void ray carrier! One carrier can deal massive amounts of damage quickly. And quickly being the key.
On March 19 2011 23:10 Hierarch wrote: Also if I saw infester play, I'd just put up more gateways and do a gateway + voidray push. I do agree that infesters are probably the best counter to stargate harass, but that's a lot of gas to be allocating, and you'll be on 2 bases nonetheless taking a 3rd so your army will be mostly roach/ling otherwise.
I had already several fights where i had sling, roach, queen (6-8), infestor(4) (range and armor upgrade) vs the toss midgame push and i can tell u that this unit combo can really give toss a very hard time even if he has kolossus: If p cant micro his kolos behindt your gateway units they can be sniped by queens - (7 queens need 5 seconds to kill a kolo- fungal is 8 sec) - for voidrays its even worse! It comes down to forcfields and fungal skills and the macro but from my point of view zerg can easily fight toss cost effective and will in any case keep his infestors alive.
I would say vs a sling, roach, infestor or sling, roach, hydra combo applying pressure in mid game without colossus is very very difficult.
On top of that: The strength of the protoss is that u can always have a save escape with its high movespeed and forcefields. Fungal can neglect. If u poke in to force zerg to build units but dont actually plan to engage - the zerg can force an engagment or will kill off some part of your army - i think this is very important.
On timings of hydra, corruptor, infestor: Hydalisk can pop 73 secnonds after lair - infestors can pop with energy upgrade 130 seconds and muta/corruptor 133/140 seconds after lair. So hydras would come out roughly 1 min earlier than infestors or corruptors.
Just in case no one said this yet, but 1 air upgrade is plus 16 to a carrier, PLUS SIXTEEN! There are 8 interceptors with two attacks each, so 3 carriers with no upgrade deal 240 damage per volley (too lazy to do DPS, sorry xD!), while 3 carriers with 3 attack upgrades do 384 damage. That's a roach every volley, and for the interceptor's attack speed, that's just ridiculous!
On March 20 2011 09:56 Pacman234 wrote: Just in case no one said this yet, but 1 air upgrade is plus 16 to a carrier, PLUS SIXTEEN! There are 8 interceptors with two attacks each, so 3 carriers with no upgrade deal 240 damage per volley (too lazy to do DPS, sorry xD!), while 3 carriers with 3 attack upgrades do 384 damage. That's a roach every volley, and for the interceptor's attack speed, that's just ridiculous!
Or, since they only do +1 each individual "shot" 16 times, if the opponent has +1 armor it's +0 damage.
Air upgrades for carriers are only great if you're up a minimum of one attack to their armor. Saying it's a 16 damage upgrade is rather faulty, since it's really a 1x16 damage upgrade.
Of course, with Chronoboost it's viable to be up +1 attack to your opponent's armor if you start upgrading fairly early, but nonetheless claiming it's a 16 damage bonus per upgrade doesn't paint an accurate picture. The way armor upgrades work, +16 damage is always going to be miles ahead of +1x16 damage.
If you're 3 attack to 3 armor, it's +0 damage as 1x16. If you're 3 attack to 3 armor at 16 damage an upgrade, you're up 45 damage. Calling it 16 damage an upgrade is pretty silly.
I'm not sure if a zerg would even allow the opponent to reach the point of carriers. If I see a 3 gate expand, I'm either going to tech to hydras, or go roach/hydra. Once I see a stargate, especially with no colossus bay, I know I've won if I hit soon enough. I'd probably wait until 1/1 or maybe even 2/2, all the while poking, until I feel I've massed enough to push in for the win.
On March 19 2011 23:10 Hierarch wrote: Also if I saw infester play, I'd just put up more gateways and do a gateway + voidray push. I do agree that infesters are probably the best counter to stargate harass, but that's a lot of gas to be allocating, and you'll be on 2 bases nonetheless taking a 3rd so your army will be mostly roach/ling otherwise.
I had already several fights where i had sling, roach, queen (6-8), infestor(4) (range and armor upgrade) vs the toss midgame push and i can tell u that this unit combo can really give toss a very hard time even if he has kolossus: If p cant micro his kolos behindt your gateway units they can be sniped by queens - (7 queens need 5 seconds to kill a kolo- fungal is 8 sec) - for voidrays its even worse! It comes down to forcfields and fungal skills and the macro but from my point of view zerg can easily fight toss cost effective and will in any case keep his infestors alive.
I would say vs a sling, roach, infestor or sling, roach, hydra combo applying pressure in mid game without colossus is very very difficult.
On top of that: The strength of the protoss is that u can always have a save escape with its high movespeed and forcefields. Fungal can neglect. If u poke in to force zerg to build units but dont actually plan to engage - the zerg can force an engagment or will kill off some part of your army - i think this is very important.
On timings of hydra, corruptor, infestor: Hydalisk can pop 73 secnonds after lair - infestors can pop with energy upgrade 130 seconds and muta/corruptor 133/140 seconds after lair. So hydras would come out roughly 1 min earlier than infestors or corruptors.
speedling, infester, roach, hydra + 7-9 queens is extremely expensive in all facets of zerg macro (minerals, gas, larva) and what you're describing is 2 bases at most which puts you even with me. I get to scout this, and have been doing some harassment with the phoenix. I have no incentive to attack you, i'd simply take a 3rd and laugh if you try to attack with that army off creep.
On March 20 2011 10:15 Wintertime wrote: I'm not sure if a zerg would even allow the opponent to reach the point of carriers. If I see a 3 gate expand, I'm either going to tech to hydras, or go roach/hydra. Once I see a stargate, especially with no colossus bay, I know I've won if I hit soon enough. I'd probably wait until 1/1 or maybe even 2/2, all the while poking, until I feel I've massed enough to push in for the win.
A 2 base timing attack would only work if it hit super fast, like a roach/ling bust, waiting for hydras, getting hydra range and 1/1 or 2/2 is expensive and will give me ample time to see it coming and prepare. Also while you're setting up i can easily run in and grab 3-4 drones from your natural and main with phoenix, and i can continue to do this delaying a push.
Another reason why I'm going to be safe is that roach/hydra isn't that mobile off creep, and when you push the roaches will be in front meaning the hydras won't be able to touch my voidrays from just owning roaches left and right. Attacking cross map with a 2 base timing like that just allows me to do what I want to do, defend. I wouldn't attempt this strategy close positions on any map.
On March 20 2011 12:55 Gentleman7 wrote: Few questions:
-What do you do if zerg 2base all ins you with burrow roach?
-What do you do if zerg doom drops hydras?
-What do you do v infestors? Verse mass corrupter?
- Canons detect, voidrays kill roaches really fast, ff's let me zone the battle.
- Depends on how many hydras, I bring my army of about 5-6 sentrys 5-6 zealots 1-2 stalkers 1 voidray and 3-5 phoenix, i start lifting hydras, depending on how many have been dropped determines how many i'd lift. We battle, it would probably be close in theory but I feel I could hold it.
- Mass corrupter just lets me do a gateway/voidray push or just a straight gateway push, if you're going mass corrupter I can just stop stargate production when I see corrupters being over made and i'll win on the ground.
On March 20 2011 12:55 Gentleman7 wrote: Few questions:
-What do you do if zerg 2base all ins you with burrow roach?
-What do you do if zerg doom drops hydras?
-What do you do v infestors? Verse mass corrupter?
- Canons detect, voidrays kill roaches really fast, ff's let me zone the battle.
- Depends on how many hydras, I bring my army of about 5-6 sentrys 5-6 zealots 1-2 stalkers 1 voidray and 3-5 phoenix, i start lifting hydras, depending on how many have been dropped determines how many i'd lift. We battle, it would probably be close in theory but I feel I could hold it.
- Mass corrupter just lets me do a gateway/voidray push or just a straight gateway push, if you're going mass corrupter I can just stop stargate production when I see corrupters being over made and i'll win on the ground.
-What if roaches snipe cannons quick?
-Even if it goes down like it did last night July v MC? MC was just out numbered. I can't see you holding a concentrated doom drop that you don't see coming.
On March 20 2011 12:55 Gentleman7 wrote: Few questions:
-What do you do if zerg 2base all ins you with burrow roach?
-What do you do if zerg doom drops hydras?
-What do you do v infestors? Verse mass corrupter?
- Canons detect, voidrays kill roaches really fast, ff's let me zone the battle.
- Depends on how many hydras, I bring my army of about 5-6 sentrys 5-6 zealots 1-2 stalkers 1 voidray and 3-5 phoenix, i start lifting hydras, depending on how many have been dropped determines how many i'd lift. We battle, it would probably be close in theory but I feel I could hold it.
- Mass corrupter just lets me do a gateway/voidray push or just a straight gateway push, if you're going mass corrupter I can just stop stargate production when I see corrupters being over made and i'll win on the ground.
-What if roaches snipe cannons quick?
-Even if it goes down like it did last night July v MC? MC was just out numbered. I can't see you holding a concentrated doom drop that you don't see coming.
-OK, what about infestor?
- FF's zone the roaches from reaching a canon in time while i throw a robo down and another canon, roach timing is a 2 base timing, which means our economies will be equal.
- MC had 10-11 sentrys tickling the hydras and almost held, he also didnt have any voidrays/zealots/stalkers and didn't use his phoenix to help. He also built like 6 canons at his front which is 3-4 more than I'd have, that's 450-600 minerals which could easily have become some zealots or stalkers.
- I haven't had enough experience vs good infester play to really give accurate information.
I love this build's concept, and this is just a random comment, but I find that the problem with posting builds is that inevitably people will say "X Y or Z will [insert synonym of beat] this", and the author is almost forced to defend his build.
Obviously, some builds will be beaten by others, and it's pretty ignorant to suggest flat-out (which is what I see sometimes) that a build is easily countered by another, period. Obviously, it comes down to scouting, and when X/Y/Z build is implemented, one could and should scout it and use another build or strategy or unit mix if the experimental build is truly very weak against X/Y/Z...
On March 20 2011 14:12 Z3kk wrote: I love this build's concept, and this is just a random comment, but I find that the problem with posting builds is that inevitably people will say "X Y or Z will [insert synonym of beat] this", and the author is almost forced to defend his build.
Obviously, some builds will be beaten by others, and it's pretty ignorant to suggest flat-out (which is what I see sometimes) that a build is easily countered by another, period. Obviously, it comes down to scouting, and when X/Y/Z build is implemented, one could and should scout it and use another build or strategy or unit mix if the experimental build is truly very weak against X/Y/Z...
(just my two cents >_<)
The only thing I see as being a hard counter or an extremely hard timing to stop is an ultra fast hydra drop in the main ie: July vs MC on Terminus RE in the GSL finals.
But It's just a safe build, I'm not going out on the map except with my phoenix and they also give me key scouting information also. I just don't understand why people feel that it just dies to this or that without playing against it, if this build died to x or y then none of the colossus builds would work either since all the timings people are suggesting are before the 1st colossus is out, or 1 is out with no gateway support.
Thanks though, I don't mind defending the build as long as people eventually stop asking about the same things that i've already spoken on for the past 10 pages :D
So I tried this another time yesterday while at my LAN (which is why I don't have the replay) using the double stargate off of a FFE on Taldarim Alter. I was honestly amazed at how well the mass phoenix harass is. I kept the zerg on 3 bases the entire duration of the game (17 minutes at least) and was picking up queens, drones, and running into fields of overlords killing them instantly.
However the problem I discovered (which would probably come to anyone doing this for the first time when they realize how fun it is) is that I made TOO many phoenix, and due to that I got maxed extremely quickly. I was unable to get colossi or HT's out so when the giant battle occurred I basically didn't stand a chance. He had a composition of hydra/small corruptor count/baneling drops.
If I just practice this style a little bit more I will discover the proper times to tech switch and start purposefully losing phoenix to free up more supply.
Something else that I thought was totally awesome was that my opponent opened muta's. I can assure you he did not attack me with them once during the entire game. He was completely contained in his base. I even was continuously picking up zerglings at watch towers.
On March 20 2011 12:46 Hierarch wrote: [speedling, infester, roach, hydra + 7-9 queens is extremely expensive in all facets of zerg macro (minerals, gas, larva) and what you're describing is 2 bases at most which puts you even with me. I get to scout this, and have been doing some harassment with the phoenix. I have no incentive to attack you, i'd simply take a 3rd and laugh if you try to attack with that army off creep. map.
In the build i discribe there is no hydra den!
The moment u go 2 stargate and i scout it i get: 1. extra queens (6 and more) and spread creep everywhere 2. spore in mineral line and 1 at the front if u go voidray heavy move all ovis to surround a spore 3. infestation pit 4. double evo 5. drones drones drones (remeber that zerg is already ahead 5-10 drones at this point) 6. fast 3rd
Sling+roach is actually very cost efficient at defeating warpgate units.
If u go 1 voidray first and then 6-8 phenix to force cancle on my third u will most likely succeed 1 time - if u try it again u might be loosing alot to fungal growth and queens.
After zerg has infestors and queens up u wont be able to put anymore pressure on the zerg until u got ht or colossus and thats the problem of your build! How u plan to stop the zerg if he goes for a handful of hydras after the infestors?
U lough at the zerg and get a 3rd? zerg will lough back and get 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches and demolish u. If p does not put pressure on zerg hes damned to loose.
The benefit of sling, roach, infestor, queen is that u have a very cost efficient defense vs everything p can throw at u and can get expos pretty safely.
On March 20 2011 12:46 Hierarch wrote: [speedling, infester, roach, hydra + 7-9 queens is extremely expensive in all facets of zerg macro (minerals, gas, larva) and what you're describing is 2 bases at most which puts you even with me. I get to scout this, and have been doing some harassment with the phoenix. I have no incentive to attack you, i'd simply take a 3rd and laugh if you try to attack with that army off creep. map.
In the build i discribe there is no hydra den!
The moment u go 2 stargate and i scout it i get: 1. extra queens (6 and more) and spread creep everywhere 2. spore in mineral line and 1 at the front if u go voidray heavy move all ovis to surround a spore 3. infestation pit 4. double evo 5. drones drones drones (remeber that zerg is already ahead 5-10 drones at this point) 6. fast 3rd
Sling+roach is actually very cost efficient at defeating warpgate units.
If u go 1 voidray first and then 6-8 phenix to force cancle on my third u will most likely succeed 1 time - if u try it again u might be loosing alot to fungal growth and queens.
After zerg has infestors and queens up u wont be able to put anymore pressure on the zerg until u got ht or colossus and thats the problem of your build! How u plan to stop the zerg if he goes for a handful of hydras after the infestors?
U lough at the zerg and get a 3rd? zerg will lough back and get 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches and demolish u. If p does not put pressure on zerg hes damned to loose.
The benefit of sling, roach, infestor, queen is that u have a very cost efficient defense vs everything p can throw at u and can get expos pretty safely.
Adding HT would slaughter infestor and queen even without storm. Storm and archons would destroy slings and hydra. It takes time to transition to but you won't have 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches.
On March 20 2011 12:46 Hierarch wrote: [speedling, infester, roach, hydra + 7-9 queens is extremely expensive in all facets of zerg macro (minerals, gas, larva) and what you're describing is 2 bases at most which puts you even with me. I get to scout this, and have been doing some harassment with the phoenix. I have no incentive to attack you, i'd simply take a 3rd and laugh if you try to attack with that army off creep. map.
In the build i discribe there is no hydra den!
The moment u go 2 stargate and i scout it i get: 1. extra queens (6 and more) and spread creep everywhere 2. spore in mineral line and 1 at the front if u go voidray heavy move all ovis to surround a spore 3. infestation pit 4. double evo 5. drones drones drones (remeber that zerg is already ahead 5-10 drones at this point) 6. fast 3rd
Sling+roach is actually very cost efficient at defeating warpgate units.
If u go 1 voidray first and then 6-8 phenix to force cancle on my third u will most likely succeed 1 time - if u try it again u might be loosing alot to fungal growth and queens.
After zerg has infestors and queens up u wont be able to put anymore pressure on the zerg until u got ht or colossus and thats the problem of your build! How u plan to stop the zerg if he goes for a handful of hydras after the infestors?
U lough at the zerg and get a 3rd? zerg will lough back and get 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches and demolish u. If p does not put pressure on zerg hes damned to loose.
The benefit of sling, roach, infestor, queen is that u have a very cost efficient defense vs everything p can throw at u and can get expos pretty safely.
Adding HT would slaughter infestor and queen even without storm. Storm and archons would destroy slings and hydra. It takes time to transition to but you won't have 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches.
It actually wouldn't take time to transition into, due to I will have a twilight council up, and templar archives doesn't take that long to build. Also I don't need to get storm so i can immediately warp in some HT for feedback purposes,
Also to get Archons I most likely will already have my Dark shrine up and DT's can become archons :D
On March 20 2011 23:25 Gemini_19 wrote: So I tried this another time yesterday while at my LAN (which is why I don't have the replay) using the double stargate off of a FFE on Taldarim Alter. I was honestly amazed at how well the mass phoenix harass is. I kept the zerg on 3 bases the entire duration of the game (17 minutes at least) and was picking up queens, drones, and running into fields of overlords killing them instantly.
However the problem I discovered (which would probably come to anyone doing this for the first time when they realize how fun it is) is that I made TOO many phoenix, and due to that I got maxed extremely quickly. I was unable to get colossi or HT's out so when the giant battle occurred I basically didn't stand a chance. He had a composition of hydra/small corruptor count/baneling drops.
If I just practice this style a little bit more I will discover the proper times to tech switch and start purposefully losing phoenix to free up more supply.
Something else that I thought was totally awesome was that my opponent opened muta's. I can assure you he did not attack me with them once during the entire game. He was completely contained in his base. I even was continuously picking up zerglings at watch towers.
I'm really liking this ^^
Ya learning when you need just straight up fighting units is a tough call to make, when I want to lose my phoenix I just fly them into the zergs mineral lines and pick up drones and kill them until all my phoenix are dead, I then replace the losses from 3-4 stargates of voidrays and/or carriers.
On March 20 2011 12:46 Hierarch wrote: [speedling, infester, roach, hydra + 7-9 queens is extremely expensive in all facets of zerg macro (minerals, gas, larva) and what you're describing is 2 bases at most which puts you even with me. I get to scout this, and have been doing some harassment with the phoenix. I have no incentive to attack you, i'd simply take a 3rd and laugh if you try to attack with that army off creep. map.
In the build i discribe there is no hydra den!
The moment u go 2 stargate and i scout it i get: 1. extra queens (6 and more) and spread creep everywhere 2. spore in mineral line and 1 at the front if u go voidray heavy move all ovis to surround a spore 3. infestation pit 4. double evo 5. drones drones drones (remeber that zerg is already ahead 5-10 drones at this point) 6. fast 3rd
Sling+roach is actually very cost efficient at defeating warpgate units.
If u go 1 voidray first and then 6-8 phenix to force cancle on my third u will most likely succeed 1 time - if u try it again u might be loosing alot to fungal growth and queens.
After zerg has infestors and queens up u wont be able to put anymore pressure on the zerg until u got ht or colossus and thats the problem of your build! How u plan to stop the zerg if he goes for a handful of hydras after the infestors?
U lough at the zerg and get a 3rd? zerg will lough back and get 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches and demolish u. If p does not put pressure on zerg hes damned to loose.
The benefit of sling, roach, infestor, queen is that u have a very cost efficient defense vs everything p can throw at u and can get expos pretty safely.
According to your 6 points you aren't making many units, as soon as my phoenix fly in and see this i immediately pump 2 voidrays and put up a 5th gateway, then I just push with my gateways units, phoenix, 3 voidrays and reinforce from 5 warpgates. Any ling composition is a heavy larva investment, and if you're making as many drones as you're claiming i'll just run you over with a sentry, stalker, zealot force with some voidray and phoenix support. FF's just let me own roaches and lings.
When I force a cancel/delay your 3rd that's the goal, it's not to deny it, but to keep you on the same number of bases as me, as long as possible.
HT can feedback infesters and queens, and I don't even need to research storm, I can feedback and then make archons which are amazing vs zerg.
Your replay is against someone going colossus voidray, which means their gateway unit count is low and their air units will be a lot less upgraded than mine and they spent a ton of resources on colossus (robo bay, range etc...). Broodlords are also a lot less efficient against my unit composition.
On March 20 2011 12:46 Hierarch wrote: [speedling, infester, roach, hydra + 7-9 queens is extremely expensive in all facets of zerg macro (minerals, gas, larva) and what you're describing is 2 bases at most which puts you even with me. I get to scout this, and have been doing some harassment with the phoenix. I have no incentive to attack you, i'd simply take a 3rd and laugh if you try to attack with that army off creep. map.
In the build i discribe there is no hydra den!
The moment u go 2 stargate and i scout it i get: 1. extra queens (6 and more) and spread creep everywhere 2. spore in mineral line and 1 at the front if u go voidray heavy move all ovis to surround a spore 3. infestation pit 4. double evo 5. drones drones drones (remeber that zerg is already ahead 5-10 drones at this point) 6. fast 3rd
Sling+roach is actually very cost efficient at defeating warpgate units.
If u go 1 voidray first and then 6-8 phenix to force cancle on my third u will most likely succeed 1 time - if u try it again u might be loosing alot to fungal growth and queens.
After zerg has infestors and queens up u wont be able to put anymore pressure on the zerg until u got ht or colossus and thats the problem of your build! How u plan to stop the zerg if he goes for a handful of hydras after the infestors?
U lough at the zerg and get a 3rd? zerg will lough back and get 5 bases up with 6 or 7 hatches and demolish u. If p does not put pressure on zerg hes damned to loose.
The benefit of sling, roach, infestor, queen is that u have a very cost efficient defense vs everything p can throw at u and can get expos pretty safely.
I laughed pretty hard when I read this. Why does he have to pressure???? All he has to do is get his third get the gas. Make a decision as to what tech route to go or multi tech routes and then attack when he is close to max. He still has pheonix to scout and if you do get too greedy he can punish you. Just because the infestors and queens stop his harass doesn't mean pheonix become instantly worthless. Infestors and Queens are really slow even on creep. Also, did you even read the title of the thread???
Don't know if this has been mensioned yet, sorry if it has, but wouldn't Roach (to shield the hydras from zealots), Hydra and infestor counter this quite well? FG the zealots and then infested terran under the carriers/ voidrays, or NP a carrier or two, or the mothership if it comes. Get some overseers to spot obs, DT's and units under the Mothership cloak. Then once the obs are out the way, burrow everything and move the roaches into a good possition, same with infestors, spawn infested terran from underground and then unburrow everything as they pop
So basically Roach Hydra Infestor and maybe some corruptors
p and t have to pressure zerg. I think this is a basic concept of the game. P can expo for free since his production facilities are also his bases. On 4 hatcheries with queens zerg can produce 28 drones in 45 seconds to saturate another base. Can toss or terran do this? If u leave a zerg unpressured he will get ahead in eco very very fast. 3 or 4 base protoss can be scary - but tier 3 zerg with tons of ressources and the ability to instantly remax is scary too. In the game i posted i loose a maxed sling, roach, infestor, broodlord army to the protoss and when he pushes 30 seconds after this fight i kill all his air and colossus with 25 corruptors and clean up the remaining forces.
If anyone wants to put double stargate opening after sentry expand or forge expand vs zerg to the test i wil be only for the next couple of hours on eu server: HerrTrichter.
I will go for sling hydra push of you forge expand and i will go for sling, roach, infestor, queen mass eco if u go sentry expand.
I've liked carrier transitions in PvZ for a long time. A build I often use looks something like: 3gate expo>robo+stargate>third base>carrier transition while using a colo/void/stalker/sentry ball to defend/set up a 4th.
Once you get a mothership out it seems unstoppable. Carrier collossus mothership stalker voidray sentry. Working in high templars since you'll be on 8 gas makes corrupters a completely impossible response, and I honestly think if you get into a position like that with all three tech trees open and a decent number of carriers you're unstoppable.
Builds like this (especially with pheonix harass) really pressure zergs into the aggressive position IMO, because otherwise they'll just lose to superior tech no matter what they build, although a ton of zergs haven't figured this out yet it seems.
Infestors seem the most dangerous thing for this build to deal with. It seems you are relying mainly on phoenix with a few voids thrown in to keep the Zerg under alot of pressure early game, but if they can fungal a pack of raiding phoenix, a handful of hydras can just rip them apart. At this point, the Zerg could cut back on infestors and power air production; if you lose very many of those early phoenix, the mutas bounce makes it hard for even pheonix to deal with once the ball is up. Sentry support will negate that, but sentries would siphon massive amounts of gas, plus you would then have the highly mobile air force alongside what one of your least mobile units.
Basically, how do you prevent fungal play from either shutting down your harass or just straight up killing a chunk of your airfleet?
On March 21 2011 20:28 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote: Don't know if this has been mensioned yet, sorry if it has, but wouldn't Roach (to shield the hydras from zealots), Hydra and infestor counter this quite well? FG the zealots and then infested terran under the carriers/ voidrays, or NP a carrier or two, or the mothership if it comes. Get some overseers to spot obs, DT's and units under the Mothership cloak. Then once the obs are out the way, burrow everything and move the roaches into a good possition, same with infestors, spawn infested terran from underground and then unburrow everything as they pop
So basically Roach Hydra Infestor and maybe some corruptors
If I see that many infesters, I would have transitioned into HT, and feedback would easily make sure I wouldn't have to deal with NP or FG and would probably be killing infesters also. If your only anti air is Hydra's then carriers would just win that fight since as you said the roaches would be in front of the hydras. Sure the hydras would be killing intercepters but I can replace those for 25 minerals while your hydras would just be dieing, or with some well placed ff's I could just separate your roaches and hydras and then the major engagement becoems my army vs a bunch of roaches and some hydras getting some shots in as opposed to your whole army.
Also, how are you dealing with phoenix harass? How many early game hydras are you going to have? Cause the more you make means the less gas you're going to have later for infesters. Phoenix can also fly in and lift infesters, making them useless spectators.
I agree that infester play could be strong but I feel that it will come down to HT vs infester, like HT vs Ghost. Also since I'd be going HT storm would be an obvious transition, and storm just owns Hydras.
On March 21 2011 22:51 Herr_Trichter wrote: p and t have to pressure zerg. I think this is a basic concept of the game. P can expo for free since his production facilities are also his bases. On 4 hatcheries with queens zerg can produce 28 drones in 45 seconds to saturate another base. Can toss or terran do this? If u leave a zerg unpressured he will get ahead in eco very very fast. 3 or 4 base protoss can be scary - but tier 3 zerg with tons of ressources and the ability to instantly remax is scary too. In the game i posted i loose a maxed sling, roach, infestor, broodlord army to the protoss and when he pushes 30 seconds after this fight i kill all his air and colossus with 25 corruptors and clean up the remaining forces.
If anyone wants to put double stargate opening after sentry expand or forge expand vs zerg to the test i wil be only for the next couple of hours on eu server: HerrTrichter.
I will go for sling hydra push of you forge expand and i will go for sling, roach, infestor, queen mass eco if u go sentry expand.
How am I not pressuring zerg? Phoenix harass forces 2 spores at each base, maybe more. That's 6 drones, every gas you take, that's 6 drones. Every tech building and extra hatchery you make, those are drones. That's why Zerg can make drones so fast, they use them for everything other than combat (and sometimes they're used to fight). Also if you spend every single larva on drones, you'll die. I scout your bases, see the saturation and just go kill you. FF's and gateway units with my small air support can just run you over at that point.
Tier 3 zerg doesn't bother me at all with this build, broodlords and ultras are just a waste of supply and resources since they cannot shoot up. The game you posted was a horrible example, the guy opened with a 4gate and transitioned out of an all-in opening, of course you were going to win that game. He made like 6 stalkers early also instead of the cheaper sentrys and zealots. His expansion was late, and he went COLOSSUS, I have no idea why you keep bringing the colossus into this, the whole point of this build is to not make COLOSSUS...
On March 21 2011 22:55 tubasteve wrote: A zerg with good scouting + infestors would crush this I think.
HT nullify infesters, and if infesters were so good against gateway units and protoss in general like everyone seems to think they are, why aren't more people making them vs protoss? As soon as I see early infestation pit I make voidrays and just push with voids and gateway units.
On March 21 2011 23:47 Drunkasarous wrote: Im definatly going to try this build next time I have a pvz
Please give some feedback if you can :D
On March 21 2011 23:41 salehonasi wrote: Infestors seem the most dangerous thing for this build to deal with. It seems you are relying mainly on phoenix with a few voids thrown in to keep the Zerg under alot of pressure early game, but if they can fungal a pack of raiding phoenix, a handful of hydras can just rip them apart. At this point, the Zerg could cut back on infestors and power air production; if you lose very many of those early phoenix, the mutas bounce makes it hard for even pheonix to deal with once the ball is up. Sentry support will negate that, but sentries would siphon massive amounts of gas, plus you would then have the highly mobile air force alongside what one of your least mobile units.
Basically, how do you prevent fungal play from either shutting down your harass or just straight up killing a chunk of your airfleet?
If I see early early infesters like you're suggesting, that means all your gas is going into infesters soyour defending units will be a small amount of roaches, speed lings and queens. All I have to do is pull my remaining phoenix back, dual pump voidrays and do a 3 voidray or 5 voidray timing attack with gateway reinforcements. Even if you did go to transition into mutas, your spire takes a super long time to complete, and you won't have a high count of mutas since your infesters hogged all your early gas. Not to mention mutas certainly don't help you stop my attack. That's what I feel about early infesters for defensive purposes.
Well, Hierarch, I tried this a few times on the ladder yesterday, and the results are promising.
One game on xelnaga caverns, one on backwater.
xelnaga was interesting, he saw me going for 3 gate expo and attacked with lings and roaches. I had no problems holding it with a couple of cannons and heavy zealot/sentry with a couple of stalkers warped in (pausing phoenix production during the push) I then moved out with 12-15 phoenix and harassed him at his natural, killing the queen and taking 4-5 drones. He tried mutas which failed and switched to corruptors and hydras. But it was too little too late, I pushed him, FF'd the lings and roaches and picked up the handful of hydras. he GG's.
The other game was worse he went muta ling (blind, I think) and while they didn't kill probes, they kept my phoenix count down which is something i never considered. After the initial few confrontations (including me wiping out 30-40 lings with mass zealot/sentry/cannon) we both took our third and he went for a fourth which i denied. I didn't tech switch quickly enough to HT's and he ended up rolling me with ling/muta/hydra. It was completely my fault for losing, if I researched storm and had 4-5 templar, I could have easily stormed all of it and if you notice, all three units die ridiculously well to storm. So I gg'd, lesson learned.
I need to refine this build and learn my phoenix timing. Getting 20 of them isn't as easy as i initially thought..
On March 22 2011 04:24 mamuto wrote: Well, Hierarch, I tried this a few times on the ladder yesterday, and the results are promising.
One game on xelnaga caverns, one on backwater.
xelnaga was interesting, he saw me going for 3 gate expo and attacked with lings and roaches. I had no problems holding it with a couple of cannons and heavy zealot/sentry with a couple of stalkers warped in (pausing phoenix production during the push) I then moved out with 12-15 phoenix and harassed him at his natural, killing the queen and taking 4-5 drones. He tried mutas which failed and switched to corruptors and hydras. But it was too little too late, I pushed him, FF'd the lings and roaches and picked up the handful of hydras. he GG's.
The other game was worse he went muta ling (blind, I think) and while they didn't kill probes, they kept my phoenix count down which is something i never considered. After the initial few confrontations (including me wiping out 30-40 lings with mass zealot/sentry/cannon) we both took our third and he went for a fourth which i denied. I didn't tech switch quickly enough to HT's and he ended up rolling me with ling/muta/hydra. It was completely my fault for losing, if I researched storm and had 4-5 templar, I could have easily stormed all of it and if you notice, all three units die ridiculously well to storm. So I gg'd, lesson learned.
I need to refine this build and learn my phoenix timing. Getting 20 of them isn't as easy as i initially thought..
I'll respond to each game:
The game on xel naga, you only need 8-12 phoenix unless he's going mutas, when he stops muta production just start pumping void rays to deal with the inevitable corrupters, or transition into carriers to deal with the hydras. 1 Voidray also immensely helps defend that roach/ling push.
Ya If my opponent does something like muta/ling/hydra then I get HT instead of DT's since Archons and storm just own all those things, but if you had kept chronoboosting double stargate phoenix you should have been able to beat his mutas, as long as you upgraded your air. Did you just stop phoenix production? Also a gateway/phoenix push will beat a muta/ling composition, and if he goes to counter your base with the mutas, you can fly the phoenix back and use canons + phoenix to kill the mutas, do you have some replays?
2 options for zerg, I don't know which would work better: roach+hydra+infestor, leaning a lot heavier on the hydra as roaches are just there to tank the zealots. This would be off of 3-4base play, as it is extremely hard to prevent expanding with this comp until your carrier numbers are up. muta+corruptor+roach, I've had a lot of success with this vs Ps who go mass phoenix, the key is to use it as a harass force. If the phoenix come in to try and pick at mutas, corruptors get free shots off, focus the mutas on probe lines and killing pylons, dodging any stalker balls he has and sniping off VRs that get too out of position. If the phoenix+VR try a pitched fight without stalker or cannon support, they lose. The roaches are just there for defence, after a good amount of harass, P will get fed up and push out vs you. macro up everything into roaches as he crosses the map and crush his ground army. This would rely a lot on the carrier timing window, as that is something I really have no idea on, but it feels like if the P was going for carriers, there'd be a very obvious window where the first round of carriers are still in production that the Z has free reign over the P's base with muta+corruptor (dancing around a lot to keep corrupts between phoenix and muta)
My success with this may just be due to bad P players, but the flaw of the phoenix is that when they are doing their moving shot, they attack the closest thing, simply make that the corrupts. If they fly in and stop to kill mutas, your mutas rape them anyways.
On March 22 2011 04:34 Hierarch wrote: I'll respond to each game:
The game on xel naga, you only need 8-12 phoenix unless he's going mutas, when he stops muta production just start pumping void rays to deal with the inevitable corrupters, or transition into carriers to deal with the hydras. 1 Voidray also immensely helps defend that roach/ling push.
Ya If my opponent does something like muta/ling/hydra then I get HT instead of DT's since Archons and storm just own all those things, but if you had kept chronoboosting double stargate phoenix you should have been able to beat his mutas, as long as you upgraded your air. Did you just stop phoenix production? Also a gateway/phoenix push will beat a muta/ling composition, and if he goes to counter your base with the mutas, you can fly the phoenix back and use canons + phoenix to kill the mutas, do you have some replays?
I'm glad you're enjoying the build :D
It being a new build for me, I'm still struggling to refine it and get my macro in order. having 25 second build times on CB'd phoenix is still a bit funky. So I end up floating way too much and lose due to inferior macro. Also, you seem to know the proper times to push when you know Zerg is weak, that is something I lack overall (other than the 200/200 deathball push but thats easymode)
So I'm trying to get a feel for it, I am going to play this more and watch my replays and see when zerg is weak. Not going to post any replays until I'm sure I'm playing my best so that variable is taken out of the equation of the strategy. Only a 2.8k diamond here :S
Still unsure of the carriers though.. Only because if they go hydra/corruptor, its basically like marine/viking in PvT against carriers. You lose the interceptors to hydra, and you lose the carriers to corruptor with the damage buff. You really do tech right into a hard counter... What are you feelings on this?
ill get my friend to try this sometime so i can see if there's a way to beat it but right now, i feel like speedlingbaneling can end the game early for you~
On March 22 2011 05:06 zLnoEk wrote: ill get my friend to try this sometime so i can see if there's a way to beat it but right now, i feel like speedlingbaneling can end the game early for you~
I feel it could also, but as long as I survive with a base, a counter push with zealot/stalker/voidray will win the game. It all depends on how many probes I lose.
On March 22 2011 04:41 Shiladie wrote: 2 options for zerg, I don't know which would work better: roach+hydra+infestor, leaning a lot heavier on the hydra as roaches are just there to tank the zealots. This would be off of 3-4base play, as it is extremely hard to prevent expanding with this comp until your carrier numbers are up. muta+corruptor+roach, I've had a lot of success with this vs Ps who go mass phoenix, the key is to use it as a harass force. If the phoenix come in to try and pick at mutas, corruptors get free shots off, focus the mutas on probe lines and killing pylons, dodging any stalker balls he has and sniping off VRs that get too out of position. If the phoenix+VR try a pitched fight without stalker or cannon support, they lose. The roaches are just there for defence, after a good amount of harass, P will get fed up and push out vs you. macro up everything into roaches as he crosses the map and crush his ground army. This would rely a lot on the carrier timing window, as that is something I really have no idea on, but it feels like if the P was going for carriers, there'd be a very obvious window where the first round of carriers are still in production that the Z has free reign over the P's base with muta+corruptor (dancing around a lot to keep corrupts between phoenix and muta)
My success with this may just be due to bad P players, but the flaw of the phoenix is that when they are doing their moving shot, they attack the closest thing, simply make that the corrupts. If they fly in and stop to kill mutas, your mutas rape them anyways.
Roach/Infester/Hydra, in which order? Are you going for super early Infesters? Also Carriers will be off 3 bases for me, I can delay a 3rd for you with a voidray and 3-4 phoenix. Also to prevent late game expansions, DT's allow me to delay or outright deny 4th or 5th expansions.
Muta/Corrupter/Roach just outright loses to a gateway/voidray push seeing as stalker,sentry just can plow through that. Now if you go to harass my base with muta/corrupter here's a few problems, you won't have nearly as many mutas as you would if you were going pure muta, 3 canons in my mineral lines and running 3-4 stalkers back there just nullifies this harassment.
Macroing everything into roaches wouldn't work if I just pushed out with my forces once I see a muta/corrupter harass attempt. Also that's a lot of gas going into muta/corrupter so I don't understand how you'd have enough roaches to defend a push at that timing.
On March 22 2011 04:34 Hierarch wrote: I'll respond to each game:
The game on xel naga, you only need 8-12 phoenix unless he's going mutas, when he stops muta production just start pumping void rays to deal with the inevitable corrupters, or transition into carriers to deal with the hydras. 1 Voidray also immensely helps defend that roach/ling push.
Ya If my opponent does something like muta/ling/hydra then I get HT instead of DT's since Archons and storm just own all those things, but if you had kept chronoboosting double stargate phoenix you should have been able to beat his mutas, as long as you upgraded your air. Did you just stop phoenix production? Also a gateway/phoenix push will beat a muta/ling composition, and if he goes to counter your base with the mutas, you can fly the phoenix back and use canons + phoenix to kill the mutas, do you have some replays?
I'm glad you're enjoying the build :D
It being a new build for me, I'm still struggling to refine it and get my macro in order. having 25 second build times on CB'd phoenix is still a bit funky. So I end up floating way too much and lose due to inferior macro. Also, you seem to know the proper times to push when you know Zerg is weak, that is something I lack overall (other than the 200/200 deathball push but thats easymode)
So I'm trying to get a feel for it, I am going to play this more and watch my replays and see when zerg is weak. Not going to post any replays until I'm sure I'm playing my best so that variable is taken out of the equation of the strategy. Only a 2.8k diamond here :S
Still unsure of the carriers though.. Only because if they go hydra/corruptor, its basically like marine/viking in PvT against carriers. You lose the interceptors to hydra, and you lose the carriers to corruptor with the damage buff. You really do tech right into a hard counter... What are you feelings on this?
My timings on when zerg is weak is based on scouting, as you are harassing with phoenix you can just get a general idea of how many units zerg has made by counting:
- How many expansions they have - The drone saturation - How many units you spot and which units
It's very subtle, but drone saturation tells you a lot about what the zerg is doing. Ya learning to produce out of two stargates and the gateways is kind of odd, I'm almost always producing from my stargates while warping from 4 gateways when on two bases.
The difference between Hydra/Corrupter and Marine/Viking is that Marines cost 50 minerals, and are easier to mass, and they can stim. Also vikings have 9 range while corrupters have 6 (iirc) I'm also not making just carriers, if they make an army composition of pure hydra/corrupter then I'm fine because:
- chargelots get free hits on the hydras if they're shooting intercepters
- Voidrays demolish corrupters, and i'd only get about 6 carriers and then pump voidrays
- I'd also morph a good amount of archons from DT's 250/250 for a unit that can hit hydras and corrupters with 47 splash damage is amazing.
So I tried out some more double starport openings while getting a crapton of phoenix. I must say...this is unbelievably fun.
This is the first game I played yesterday with it.
Even though I did end up losing in the end due to not getting out colossus in time, the harassment part of the game was really fun and felt good. This game was me trying to figure out a good time when to switch into colossus, so I didn't mind if I lost. In fact, I could have probably won had I just gotten colossus a tad bit earlier.
Here is the 2nd game.
This one goes much better. I was able to do damage with the phoenix's as well as transition into colossi at a good time. I did some double pronged attacks with a warp prism and phoenix harass on two separate bases as well.
I ended up just going for void/colossus and was able to run over the zerg.
Now for the 3rd game..
This game is just down right stupid...lol. I do the phoenix opening once again, however he went for a super fast tech to muta's. This caused for some interesting back and forth air battles. He eventually was able to get hyra's without me noticing.
This guy obviously isn't the best player...but I said I would put whatever games I played using this style up for discussion. He ends up just sitting on his 3rd base while not expanding at all with a crapton of hydras/lings/corruptors. I was able to max out with phoenix, colossi, gateway.
The reason this game is so funny..is because twice I run into fields of overlords, bringing him down to almost no supply. That was honestly completely mind blowing. The fact that you can do that in a real league game (neglecting the fact of how good this player was) is pretty fucking amazing. Imagine if this was on a map with a more accessible 3rd. I could have easily improved my air weapons and killed all those overlords even faster.
It wasn't until too late that I remembered about warp prisms and islands, so I only have a 3rd for a short while before he takes all he has into killing that putting himself in a terrible position as I completely clean up his entire poorly upgraded army.
YES! that overlord field killing is so delicious. You do such damage with it, its ridiculous. 100 minerals, all the larvae to rebuild them, can't reenforce an army not only whilst supply blocked, but also after they pop. pretty brutal. pair that up with taking out the queens, and HELLO NO LARVA. then push with main army for the win.
Hierarch, what's a good number of voidrays for you? Do you base it off their corruptor count? if so what ratio of void/corruptor?
On March 22 2011 06:34 Gemini_19 wrote: So I tried out some more double starport openings while getting a crapton of phoenix. I must say...this is unbelievably fun.
This is the first game I played yesterday with it.
Even though I did end up losing in the end due to not getting out colossus in time, the harassment part of the game was really fun and felt good. This game was me trying to figure out a good time when to switch into colossus, so I didn't mind if I lost. In fact, I could have probably won had I just gotten colossus a tad bit earlier.
Here is the 2nd game.
This one goes much better. I was able to do damage with the phoenix's as well as transition into colossi at a good time. I did some double pronged attacks with a warp prism and phoenix harass on two separate bases as well.
I ended up just going for void/colossus and was able to run over the zerg.
Now for the 3rd game..
This game is just down right stupid...lol. I do the phoenix opening once again, however he went for a super fast tech to muta's. This caused for some interesting back and forth air battles. He eventually was able to get hyra's without me noticing.
This guy obviously isn't the best player...but I said I would put whatever games I played using this style up for discussion. He ends up just sitting on his 3rd base while not expanding at all with a crapton of hydras/lings/corruptors. I was able to max out with phoenix, colossi, gateway.
The reason this game is so funny..is because twice I run into fields of overlords, bringing him down to almost no supply. That was honestly completely mind blowing. The fact that you can do that in a real league game (neglecting the fact of how good this player was) is pretty fucking amazing. Imagine if this was on a map with a more accessible 3rd. I could have easily improved my air weapons and killed all those overlords even faster.
It wasn't until too late that I remembered about warp prisms and islands, so I only have a 3rd for a short while before he takes all he has into killing that putting himself in a terrible position as I completely clean up his entire poorly upgraded army.
Basically I'm having fun.
Have you tried transitioning into voidrays and carriers yet? I'll update the OP with these replays also. Thanks.
On March 22 2011 06:47 mamuto wrote: YES! that overlord field killing is so delicious. You do such damage with it, its ridiculous. 100 minerals, all the larvae to rebuild them, can't reenforce an army not only whilst supply blocked, but also after they pop. pretty brutal. pair that up with taking out the queens, and HELLO NO LARVA. then push with main army for the win.
Hierarch, what's a good number of voidrays for you? Do you base it off their corruptor count? if so what ratio of void/corruptor?
If I see mass, mass corrupter I just keep pumping voidrays nonstop, if I see more of a corrupter/hyrda mix I usually get 8-12 voids and 4-6 carriers, and when I max I usually go up to 10-12 gateways and 4 stargates to help remax. It's more of a "feel" type of thing lol XD
Last weekend I started trying to go carriers in both T and Z matchups. I won some and lost some (got too excited and tried rushing for them), but what I really like about carriers is that I am having fun again. Even if I lose, it is so much more exciting trying to get carriers then the standard colossus. I think carriers are under used and tend to scare/confuse some opponents.
On March 22 2011 07:08 WoolySheep wrote: Thank you for this post!
Last weekend I started trying to go carriers in both T and Z matchups. I won some and lost some (got too excited and tried rushing for them), but what I really like about carriers is that I am having fun again. Even if I lose, it is so much more exciting trying to get carriers then the standard colossus. I think carriers are under used and tend to scare/confuse some opponents.
I'm glad you're enjoying it, I only use Carriers against terran if they are going for Mech, since Thors aren't like Goliaths for anti-armored air. :D
Post any other feedback you discover also, I just want to evolve this build and explore the possibilities :D
On March 22 2011 07:15 Gemini_19 wrote: @Hierarch: Not yet. I'm slowly easing into the style. I'll try more carrier based play today.
You can also put under "Tips and Tricks" running into fields of overlords like I did ^^
On March 21 2011 22:51 Herr_Trichter wrote: p and t have to pressure zerg. I think this is a basic concept of the game. P can expo for free since his production facilities are also his bases. On 4 hatcheries with queens zerg can produce 28 drones in 45 seconds to saturate another base. Can toss or terran do this? If u leave a zerg unpressured he will get ahead in eco very very fast. 3 or 4 base protoss can be scary - but tier 3 zerg with tons of ressources and the ability to instantly remax is scary too. In the game i posted i loose a maxed sling, roach, infestor, broodlord army to the protoss and when he pushes 30 seconds after this fight i kill all his air and colossus with 25 corruptors and clean up the remaining forces.
If anyone wants to put double stargate opening after sentry expand or forge expand vs zerg to the test i wil be only for the next couple of hours on eu server: HerrTrichter.
I will go for sling hydra push of you forge expand and i will go for sling, roach, infestor, queen mass eco if u go sentry expand.
I stopped reading when you said tier 3. Please name a tier 3 unit that can attack air.
On March 22 2011 05:06 zLnoEk wrote: ill get my friend to try this sometime so i can see if there's a way to beat it but right now, i feel like speedlingbaneling can end the game early for you~
I feel it could also, but as long as I survive with a base, a counter push with zealot/stalker/voidray will win the game. It all depends on how many probes I lose.
On March 22 2011 04:41 Shiladie wrote: 2 options for zerg, I don't know which would work better: roach+hydra+infestor, leaning a lot heavier on the hydra as roaches are just there to tank the zealots. This would be off of 3-4base play, as it is extremely hard to prevent expanding with this comp until your carrier numbers are up. muta+corruptor+roach, I've had a lot of success with this vs Ps who go mass phoenix, the key is to use it as a harass force. If the phoenix come in to try and pick at mutas, corruptors get free shots off, focus the mutas on probe lines and killing pylons, dodging any stalker balls he has and sniping off VRs that get too out of position. If the phoenix+VR try a pitched fight without stalker or cannon support, they lose. The roaches are just there for defence, after a good amount of harass, P will get fed up and push out vs you. macro up everything into roaches as he crosses the map and crush his ground army. This would rely a lot on the carrier timing window, as that is something I really have no idea on, but it feels like if the P was going for carriers, there'd be a very obvious window where the first round of carriers are still in production that the Z has free reign over the P's base with muta+corruptor (dancing around a lot to keep corrupts between phoenix and muta)
My success with this may just be due to bad P players, but the flaw of the phoenix is that when they are doing their moving shot, they attack the closest thing, simply make that the corrupts. If they fly in and stop to kill mutas, your mutas rape them anyways.
Roach/Infester/Hydra, in which order? Are you going for super early Infesters? Also Carriers will be off 3 bases for me, I can delay a 3rd for you with a voidray and 3-4 phoenix. Also to prevent late game expansions, DT's allow me to delay or outright deny 4th or 5th expansions.
Muta/Corrupter/Roach just outright loses to a gateway/voidray push seeing as stalker,sentry just can plow through that. Now if you go to harass my base with muta/corrupter here's a few problems, you won't have nearly as many mutas as you would if you were going pure muta, 3 canons in my mineral lines and running 3-4 stalkers back there just nullifies this harassment.
Macroing everything into roaches wouldn't work if I just pushed out with my forces once I see a muta/corrupter harass attempt. Also that's a lot of gas going into muta/corrupter so I don't understand how you'd have enough roaches to defend a push at that timing.
Again this may be due to playing bad Ps, but I just sit on 2-base with a spam of spine crawlers at my nat due to gas limiting my army. with P on 2-3 base, it's easy to dance between them out running stalkers. The general flaw I see in the air-dom P is that corruptors and mutas win in all straight up fights while being more mobile then all but the phoenix.
On March 22 2011 05:06 zLnoEk wrote: ill get my friend to try this sometime so i can see if there's a way to beat it but right now, i feel like speedlingbaneling can end the game early for you~
I feel it could also, but as long as I survive with a base, a counter push with zealot/stalker/voidray will win the game. It all depends on how many probes I lose.
On March 22 2011 04:41 Shiladie wrote: 2 options for zerg, I don't know which would work better: roach+hydra+infestor, leaning a lot heavier on the hydra as roaches are just there to tank the zealots. This would be off of 3-4base play, as it is extremely hard to prevent expanding with this comp until your carrier numbers are up. muta+corruptor+roach, I've had a lot of success with this vs Ps who go mass phoenix, the key is to use it as a harass force. If the phoenix come in to try and pick at mutas, corruptors get free shots off, focus the mutas on probe lines and killing pylons, dodging any stalker balls he has and sniping off VRs that get too out of position. If the phoenix+VR try a pitched fight without stalker or cannon support, they lose. The roaches are just there for defence, after a good amount of harass, P will get fed up and push out vs you. macro up everything into roaches as he crosses the map and crush his ground army. This would rely a lot on the carrier timing window, as that is something I really have no idea on, but it feels like if the P was going for carriers, there'd be a very obvious window where the first round of carriers are still in production that the Z has free reign over the P's base with muta+corruptor (dancing around a lot to keep corrupts between phoenix and muta)
My success with this may just be due to bad P players, but the flaw of the phoenix is that when they are doing their moving shot, they attack the closest thing, simply make that the corrupts. If they fly in and stop to kill mutas, your mutas rape them anyways.
Roach/Infester/Hydra, in which order? Are you going for super early Infesters? Also Carriers will be off 3 bases for me, I can delay a 3rd for you with a voidray and 3-4 phoenix. Also to prevent late game expansions, DT's allow me to delay or outright deny 4th or 5th expansions.
Muta/Corrupter/Roach just outright loses to a gateway/voidray push seeing as stalker,sentry just can plow through that. Now if you go to harass my base with muta/corrupter here's a few problems, you won't have nearly as many mutas as you would if you were going pure muta, 3 canons in my mineral lines and running 3-4 stalkers back there just nullifies this harassment.
Macroing everything into roaches wouldn't work if I just pushed out with my forces once I see a muta/corrupter harass attempt. Also that's a lot of gas going into muta/corrupter so I don't understand how you'd have enough roaches to defend a push at that timing.
Again this may be due to playing bad Ps, but I just sit on 2-base with a spam of spine crawlers at my nat due to gas limiting my army. with P on 2-3 base, it's easy to dance between them out running stalkers. The general flaw I see in the air-dom P is that corruptors and mutas win in all straight up fights while being more mobile then all but the phoenix.
I haven't had this issue, I've played games where I go almost entirely air play (mostly on scrap station) against zerg and just flat out crush large groups of hydras and corrupters with no ground support. Void rays do very very well against corrupters, phoenix annihilate mutas as long as they aren't horribly outnumbered, and carriers do very well vs. hydras, and okay vs. mutas and corrupters. Air upgrades for toss are also very very good, and most zergs don't upgrade both their hydras and their air well.
Also, as a potential late game transition once you figure out that they are focusing on beating your air entirely, add in some archons. They rip mutas and corrupters to shreds, and tank hydras exceptionally well. Use DT's to save gas vs. high templar, and you get the added benefit of DT/phoenix being awesome against zerg (snipe the overseers with the phoenix really quick then let your dt's go to town).
On March 22 2011 05:06 zLnoEk wrote: ill get my friend to try this sometime so i can see if there's a way to beat it but right now, i feel like speedlingbaneling can end the game early for you~
I feel it could also, but as long as I survive with a base, a counter push with zealot/stalker/voidray will win the game. It all depends on how many probes I lose.
On March 22 2011 04:41 Shiladie wrote: 2 options for zerg, I don't know which would work better: roach+hydra+infestor, leaning a lot heavier on the hydra as roaches are just there to tank the zealots. This would be off of 3-4base play, as it is extremely hard to prevent expanding with this comp until your carrier numbers are up. muta+corruptor+roach, I've had a lot of success with this vs Ps who go mass phoenix, the key is to use it as a harass force. If the phoenix come in to try and pick at mutas, corruptors get free shots off, focus the mutas on probe lines and killing pylons, dodging any stalker balls he has and sniping off VRs that get too out of position. If the phoenix+VR try a pitched fight without stalker or cannon support, they lose. The roaches are just there for defence, after a good amount of harass, P will get fed up and push out vs you. macro up everything into roaches as he crosses the map and crush his ground army. This would rely a lot on the carrier timing window, as that is something I really have no idea on, but it feels like if the P was going for carriers, there'd be a very obvious window where the first round of carriers are still in production that the Z has free reign over the P's base with muta+corruptor (dancing around a lot to keep corrupts between phoenix and muta)
My success with this may just be due to bad P players, but the flaw of the phoenix is that when they are doing their moving shot, they attack the closest thing, simply make that the corrupts. If they fly in and stop to kill mutas, your mutas rape them anyways.
Roach/Infester/Hydra, in which order? Are you going for super early Infesters? Also Carriers will be off 3 bases for me, I can delay a 3rd for you with a voidray and 3-4 phoenix. Also to prevent late game expansions, DT's allow me to delay or outright deny 4th or 5th expansions.
Muta/Corrupter/Roach just outright loses to a gateway/voidray push seeing as stalker,sentry just can plow through that. Now if you go to harass my base with muta/corrupter here's a few problems, you won't have nearly as many mutas as you would if you were going pure muta, 3 canons in my mineral lines and running 3-4 stalkers back there just nullifies this harassment.
Macroing everything into roaches wouldn't work if I just pushed out with my forces once I see a muta/corrupter harass attempt. Also that's a lot of gas going into muta/corrupter so I don't understand how you'd have enough roaches to defend a push at that timing.
Again this may be due to playing bad Ps, but I just sit on 2-base with a spam of spine crawlers at my nat due to gas limiting my army. with P on 2-3 base, it's easy to dance between them out running stalkers. The general flaw I see in the air-dom P is that corruptors and mutas win in all straight up fights while being more mobile then all but the phoenix.
I don't see how spine crawlers will help vs zealot/stalker/sentry/voidray. Dividing your units between mutas and corrupters means you're not gonna have that many attacking units that hit ground. I just feel that spine crawlers just give my voidrays a chance to charge up before your air army shows up, you may end up killing all my voids and phoenix, but your muta count will be to low to engage my ground army and I can just waltz into your main from there, that's how I feel about a 2 base muta/corrupter play, correct me if you think you could hold that kind of push? and how you would.
Also I could just match you on static defense and put 4-5 canons at each mineral line.
I have never played this fast (nearing 100apm) lol I remember when i could barely break 60.
No carriers in this game, like Gemini I'm easing into it. There's way too much to do when you have phoenix on the field -___- I supply capped him as well haha, flying around sniping overlords is so much fun. I then transition into HT (barely survived hahah need to work on that >.<) and hold his army.
I realized something interesting this game, and its that as you upgrade air attack, you need less and less phoenix to snipe overlords/drones/larva unless he's getting armor upgrades. So maybe start with 15-20 but with constant upgrades losing 5-10 isn't even going to matter, freeing up the stargates for voids or carriers. I'm still scared to tech to carriers :/
But my god 10-15 phoenix flying around dropping zergs supply from 200 to 150 or lower is ridiculous. Perhaps a late game strat (if you still have 10+ phoenix) would be to suicide them into a field of ovies, warp in, and push at the same time. He won't be able to reinforce, and you win. *evil grin*
Muta's in large numbers massacre phoenix as it is...but now corruptors are in the fight as well just making the zerg not back up when he sees the phoenix. I can't kill nearly enough muta's and then he just rolls over me.
I can't attack either since he has a giant wall of spine crawlers across the map as well as lings.
On March 19 2011 08:11 GoldenH wrote: Looks like you're doing some experimenting, good luck. At higher levels I think you'll discover that hydras really aren't a problem, the problem is corruptor mixes and roach timings. Here's a similar thread I posted a while back. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186599
Ya I definitely feel that corrupter roach timings can be quite effective, but how would a corrupter roach timing do against a gateway/voidray composition? Considering normally when people make voidrays they aren't working on upgrades for them. I'll check out that thread for sure :D
Well corruptor/roach isn't much of a problem, in fact, that's pretty much the best thing for you if you're building void rays, the thing is that there are timings with just roaches, or roach/hydra mixes, or going hydra then switching to corruptors, that can be hard to scout and deal with when your core unit takes 2 whole minutes to produce.
I'm pretty sure you don't understand. The build has a lot of flexibility based on what you are scouting. Having a build where you just blindly go any unit is pretty stupid at any level of play. Plus, he's not going carriers until his third is up and the timings that you are talking about seem to be well before that.
Nah, I understand just fine, but when you are building units that take 2 minutes to come out, it doesn't matter how good you scout, you ARE blindly going that unit and hoping things don't change 3-4 production cycles later.
On March 19 2011 08:11 GoldenH wrote: Looks like you're doing some experimenting, good luck. At higher levels I think you'll discover that hydras really aren't a problem, the problem is corruptor mixes and roach timings. Here's a similar thread I posted a while back. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186599
Ya I definitely feel that corrupter roach timings can be quite effective, but how would a corrupter roach timing do against a gateway/voidray composition? Considering normally when people make voidrays they aren't working on upgrades for them. I'll check out that thread for sure :D
Well corruptor/roach isn't much of a problem, in fact, that's pretty much the best thing for you if you're building void rays, the thing is that there are timings with just roaches, or roach/hydra mixes, or going hydra then switching to corruptors, that can be hard to scout and deal with when your core unit takes 2 whole minutes to produce.
I feel that this build is getting put into a corner like the colossus builds, in a colossus build the protoss must go colossus to survive. You don't have to get carriers at all in this build, but it's the end game transition from a 2 stargate midgame. You could just pump voidrays and/or more phoenix and push out with a gateway composition.
Well, if that works, that's great. My experience has been that carriers own hydras though, while hydras are great against phoenix, void rays, and gateway units. 1 carrier > 4 hydras, even if they're directly attacking the carrier. Carriers has actually become my default response to seeing a zerg go hydras. It's the potential for them to instantly build 12 corruptors when they've been going mass hydras that's the danger there, and you can't tell what's in the egg until it pops (and he can just take a look at the Stargate). Anything that's "if I scout X, I build carriers" ... just doesn't work, because by the time you have your carriers, the battlefield is completely different. You're either getting carriers or you're not.
I've been trying this strategy and it is a lot of fun. I was actually getting tired of SC because it seems like the typical thing for protoss to do in all three match ups is to get colossus.
Like a previous poster said, I'm having fun again!
On March 22 2011 10:06 Gemini_19 wrote: So I've faced a problem..
Muta/Corruptor
Muta's in large numbers massacre phoenix as it is...but now corruptors are in the fight as well just making the zerg not back up when he sees the phoenix. I can't kill nearly enough muta's and then he just rolls over me.
I can't attack either since he has a giant wall of spine crawlers across the map as well as lings.
If they're turtling with spines that bad just tech to HT and canon up hard, or honestly when I've seen muta/corrupter I just push at their base before they can mass too many, lings fail ahrd vs zealots and sentrys and your couple voidrays should help you just nuke the spine crawlers, I personally don't make as many phoenix as you guys are, I stop anywhere form 6-10 and then i pump voidrays until i have about 6 or so.
Here's a game of me defending early ling, baneling aggression, no idea it was coming since my stargates had just started. For those who were wondering how I'd hold it.
I really like the concept of this build. What I like about it a lot is that instead of the Zerg trying to react to the Protoss (which is what usually happens) the Protoss is reacting to the Zerg by basically opening up with a strategy that forces a reaction. With Phoenix harass I think it's pretty clear that the Zerg player has a multitude of avenues to take in order to deal with it... Hydras, Corrupters, Infestors... You name it. But the key to this build is not simply just saying "I'm going to make this unit composition and I will be unstoppable vs Zerg!". No, it's not that at all... Instead the Protoss opens with one of the safest openings possible (Btw, that last game you posted Hierarch I feel that you would have benefited from more Sentries as you were strapped for minerals and had WAYYYYY too much gas when you were getting your second base started up. Either start the 3rd and 4th gas geysers later or make more sentries would be my suggestion for the future).
Once the Protoss is on two base, the Zerg is either going to have to try and bust it down right here right now or take a third. Stargate helps immensely with both those situations, as either you have Void Rays to defend early aggression (even if the Zerg went quick Hydras, they wouldn't be in any significant number at that particular point) or to delay their third base. Then with Phoenix flying around, the Zerg then goes "Okay, I need X in order to deal with this harass."
Once the Protoss sees which avenue the Zerg is going, he adapts his unit composition accordingly. If there is an abundance of Hydras, Carriers seems to be the method of choice in dealing with them (I don't know personally, but Carriers don't seem like they are "hard countered" by Hydras). Lots of Corrupters? Void Rays. Infestors? Go for High Templar. Admittedly it sounds easy (since every game of SC2 you should be thinking about how to respond to the opponent in the best way) but because the Phoenix force a response while at the same time scouting said response, it gives you a bit of a window to get the units you need before the big clash occurs. Even though you don't know what's going to hatch out of those eggs, a quick click on that tech building in construction always let you know what's coming (and again, you're flying around at warp speed inside his base).
I don't think the strength of the build is so much it's raw unit composition, as it is it's ability to adapt easily to varying Zerg strategies. Since Zerg don't possess any kind of super amazing stealth unit, the role of Observers is not nearly as needed as you have some "airborn zerglings" scouting around, and the only area where detection is absolutely needed is at your base, where you have some cannons set up.
I definitely intend to test this out. I think Carrier is a truly neglected unit, and they can still be beastly vs Corrupters if you make sure to keep upgrading. And though they don't completely mop the floor with the entire ground army once they reach critical mass like Colossus do, they are also not quite AS easily countered. I've been seeing a lot of pro games where the once "imba unstoppable Protoss Colossus/Voidray combo" be steamrolled by a ton of corrupters. This build is not quite as fragile as its tier 3 facesmasher is at least able to fight back vs. the corrupter. Anyways, I've rambled on enough I think. Nice build, I like it... Definitely needs some tweaks and further testing... But I would not (and am not) dismissing this as a viable build as it has a lot of "wiggle room" which allows for easy adaptation to what your opponent is going.
Also, if I were playing this I would definitely try and get a Mothership out before Carrier production began. Mothership offers SO much mobility it's crazy. I usually just keep her parked at home, go all in vs an expansion of an opponent, and if their forces are going to destroy mine or if they're going for a counterattack, Mass Recall is just soooooo good. Usually you're able to snipe an expo with minimal losses while at the same time being completely able to come back at a moments notice to either retreat or defend your base. Mothership is a highly unused unit but I love it a LOT. If I were you, I would test it out a little bit and see how it goes.
I think you should begin Carrier production first, and then start the mothership, as Carriers take a looong time to build, while you can only have one Mothership.
And yeah, whoever asked, Carriers with some sort of upgrades destroy upgraded hydras. Throw in a handful of chargelots and it's a carnage.
I don't see this working against a roach with burrow push. They come in, target your two cannons down, then start killing buildings then regening for the next building. Also, this build seems built around the fact that hydras suck... they dont! Really, if you don't have collosi, mass hydras really will kill you (ie once they realise there is too much gas going into air for you to go collosi, they dont need to make roaches)
Since you can only have one Mothership that's why I would go for it first. Having that energy buildup makes her so much more useful than just a freshly build Mothership... Nevermind that there are all sorts of things you can do ranging from making a hidden expo (I've done this before in team games... Park a Mothership above a new expo and cloak it up... Sometimes it takes a bit before the opponent(s) will catch onto the fact that there is indeed some action going on there. Nevermind that it helps with covering your bases as this army isn't very mobile. You can cover a weak spot with a Mothership and Vortex whatever's assaulting it, buying you enough time to deal with either another attack or at least move into position.
Nevermind it is much trickier to save up that 400 gas when you start pumping those Carriers. I tend to try and get the "big investments" out of the way first, freeing you up to make the smaller stuff more consistently right after the fact.
EDIT @Above: Well, what timing are we talking here? A lot of people will say "This will fail to X timing push..." But what timing are we talking? A two base roach burrow push? Three base? It's very ambiguous and I feel like a lot of people are willing to try and disprove a strategy in order to "be correct" as opposed to trying to find the strengths within a strategy. Not saying this this strategy isn't flawed (because every strategy is flawed)... But just saying you'll waltz in with some burrowed Roaches at some indetermined time where you also managed to conjure up enough Hydras to keep the forces that are killing those roaches while getting to the cannons busy... It just seems very very situational. "Yeah, my best reaction to a fast expand is by having a bunch of Blue Flame Hellions since they won't have much in the ways to defend it!"
That's what some of these comments feel like to me... A lot of the solutions are things that the Zerg player would have to have gearing towards right off the bat instead of going "Oh gee... He's got Stargates... I know! Burrowed roaches! BAM!". Because the time needed to get all those crucial upgrades simply buys the Protoss time to either do the economic damage he needed and/or build up forces to a sufficient level that it would almost be moot. Don't get me wrong, burrowed roaches are great... But lets face it, when they're burrowed they aren't killing anything. So even if you can't detect them they aren't directly killing you. If your Roach numbers dwindle too much each time they unburrow, then even if they can't detect them you won't be able to do significant enough damage.
Like I said, we can all come up with magical scenarios all we want... But when there is no timestamp offered on the scenario, it really is just fantasy. It's like saying I'm going to transition from a ton of Barracks the whole game into Battlecruisers... It takes time and resources to get those Battlecruisers and that's why if you're going with a ton of Barracks aggression that it probably wouldn't mesh very well. My point is you can't just go for such a specialized strategy immediately unless you were gearing towards it in the first place, or if you happen to have enough components running anyway that you could feasibly transition into it with relative ease.
Funnily enough I played someone who did this against me yesterday ^^ That massive phenix ball is just so hard to get rid of!
But after thinking and watching the replay, i think infestor/hydra is the key. One single funghal and your phenix ball is dead! Then you just need to hit a 3 base timing attack with Z and go out there and fucking kill him ^^
You will hit him before he can really mass up any carriers or void rays
So i tried it against my teamm8 on terminus re and it worked pretty well... I used early mothership to prevent battles and it safed my ass, also it was first time i tried it so i did mistakes... http://screplays.com/replays/freizy/17643
On March 22 2011 10:06 Gemini_19 wrote: So I've faced a problem..
Muta/Corruptor
Muta's in large numbers massacre phoenix as it is...but now corruptors are in the fight as well just making the zerg not back up when he sees the phoenix. I can't kill nearly enough muta's and then he just rolls over me.
I can't attack either since he has a giant wall of spine crawlers across the map as well as lings.
If they're turtling with spines that bad just tech to HT and canon up hard, or honestly when I've seen muta/corrupter I just push at their base before they can mass too many, lings fail ahrd vs zealots and sentrys and your couple voidrays should help you just nuke the spine crawlers, I personally don't make as many phoenix as you guys are, I stop anywhere form 6-10 and then i pump voidrays until i have about 6 or so.
That's what I tried. I'll rewatch the replay later today and see what I could have done where.
So are there so far any progamer who's tried this build out? I'd be thrilled to see a refined version of this build. It reminds me of HuK's old funday monday stuff, where you had to build a carrier before you were allowed to expand.
On March 23 2011 04:50 Euronyme wrote: So are there so far any progamer who's tried this build out? I'd be thrilled to see a refined version of this build. It reminds me of HuK's old funday monday stuff, where you had to build a carrier before you were allowed to expand.
You mean Day[9]'s Funday Monday? Also that's a carrier rush, this is by no means a carrier rush.
After watching the GSTL Twilight fOu did a double stargate play against Fruitdealer except he messed up a lot. + Show Spoiler +
yet he still won lol
On March 22 2011 10:41 songers wrote: I've been trying this strategy and it is a lot of fun. I was actually getting tired of SC because it seems like the typical thing for protoss to do in all three match ups is to get colossus.
Like a previous poster said, I'm having fun again!
And I win too. That's a good bonus!
Glad you're enjoying it :D
On March 22 2011 14:35 Pwere wrote: I think you should begin Carrier production first, and then start the mothership, as Carriers take a looong time to build, while you can only have one Mothership.
And yeah, whoever asked, Carriers with some sort of upgrades destroy upgraded hydras. Throw in a handful of chargelots and it's a carnage.
I don't begin carrier production until i get a 3rd up and running, cause you really need 6 gas to support carriers and gateway units and all the upgrades. But ya I make a ton of zealots, they are so good at their jobs and now that the patch has buffed their charge they'll do their jobs even better :D
On March 22 2011 15:35 Douillos wrote: Funnily enough I played someone who did this against me yesterday ^^ That massive phenix ball is just so hard to get rid of!
But after thinking and watching the replay, i think infestor/hydra is the key. One single funghal and your phenix ball is dead! Then you just need to hit a 3 base timing attack with Z and go out there and fucking kill him ^^
You will hit him before he can really mass up any carriers or void rays
Well I don't personally go for the phoenix ball, I go for 6-10 phoenix and then I switch into voidray production, but I do think infesters are going to be the bane of this stargate play, especially with the new patch.
On March 22 2011 10:06 Gemini_19 wrote: So I've faced a problem..
Muta/Corruptor
Muta's in large numbers massacre phoenix as it is...but now corruptors are in the fight as well just making the zerg not back up when he sees the phoenix. I can't kill nearly enough muta's and then he just rolls over me.
I can't attack either since he has a giant wall of spine crawlers across the map as well as lings.
If they're turtling with spines that bad just tech to HT and canon up hard, or honestly when I've seen muta/corrupter I just push at their base before they can mass too many, lings fail ahrd vs zealots and sentrys and your couple voidrays should help you just nuke the spine crawlers, I personally don't make as many phoenix as you guys are, I stop anywhere form 6-10 and then i pump voidrays until i have about 6 or so.
That's what I tried. I'll rewatch the replay later today and see what I could have done where.
I just feel that a strong voidray/gateway push would break a spine crawler defense, and you can put 4 canons in each of your mineral lines and muta/corrupter won't do enough damage anytime fast.
On March 22 2011 14:57 LAN-f34r wrote: I don't see this working against a roach with burrow push. They come in, target your two cannons down, then start killing buildings then regening for the next building. Also, this build seems built around the fact that hydras suck... they dont! Really, if you don't have collosi, mass hydras really will kill you (ie once they realise there is too much gas going into air for you to go collosi, they dont need to make roaches)
Roach speed/burrow movement and then burrow itself is quite expensive, it means most of your tech is going to be in roaches, and when is this attack coming? as soon as I see mass roach rallying in your base or moving across the map, I throw up another canon or 2, and start a robotics. My main army of zealots/sentrys/stalkers along with 1-3 voidrays will be at the front of my base near my canons. When your roaches attempt to sneak in my base they get detected by my canons and get zapped and attacked by all my units, are you saying you'd continue on and ignore the losses of a lot of your roaches to attempt to kill my 2-4 canons? Hardly seems effective, all the while I can be picking drones up in your base with my phoenix.
I really like the concept of this build. What I like about it a lot is that instead of the Zerg trying to react to the Protoss (which is what usually happens) the Protoss is reacting to the Zerg by basically opening up with a strategy that forces a reaction. With Phoenix harass I think it's pretty clear that the Zerg player has a multitude of avenues to take in order to deal with it... Hydras, Corrupters, Infestors... You name it. But the key to this build is not simply just saying "I'm going to make this unit composition and I will be unstoppable vs Zerg!". No, it's not that at all... Instead the Protoss opens with one of the safest openings possible (Btw, that last game you posted Hierarch I feel that you would have benefited from more Sentries as you were strapped for minerals and had WAYYYYY too much gas when you were getting your second base started up. Either start the 3rd and 4th gas geysers later or make more sentries would be my suggestion for the future).
Once the Protoss is on two base, the Zerg is either going to have to try and bust it down right here right now or take a third. Stargate helps immensely with both those situations, as either you have Void Rays to defend early aggression (even if the Zerg went quick Hydras, they wouldn't be in any significant number at that particular point) or to delay their third base. Then with Phoenix flying around, the Zerg then goes "Okay, I need X in order to deal with this harass."
Once the Protoss sees which avenue the Zerg is going, he adapts his unit composition accordingly. If there is an abundance of Hydras, Carriers seems to be the method of choice in dealing with them (I don't know personally, but Carriers don't seem like they are "hard countered" by Hydras). Lots of Corrupters? Void Rays. Infestors? Go for High Templar. Admittedly it sounds easy (since every game of SC2 you should be thinking about how to respond to the opponent in the best way) but because the Phoenix force a response while at the same time scouting said response, it gives you a bit of a window to get the units you need before the big clash occurs. Even though you don't know what's going to hatch out of those eggs, a quick click on that tech building in construction always let you know what's coming (and again, you're flying around at warp speed inside his base).
I don't think the strength of the build is so much it's raw unit composition, as it is it's ability to adapt easily to varying Zerg strategies. Since Zerg don't possess any kind of super amazing stealth unit, the role of Observers is not nearly as needed as you have some "airborn zerglings" scouting around, and the only area where detection is absolutely needed is at your base, where you have some cannons set up.
I definitely intend to test this out. I think Carrier is a truly neglected unit, and they can still be beastly vs Corrupters if you make sure to keep upgrading. And though they don't completely mop the floor with the entire ground army once they reach critical mass like Colossus do, they are also not quite AS easily countered. I've been seeing a lot of pro games where the once "imba unstoppable Protoss Colossus/Voidray combo" be steamrolled by a ton of corrupters. This build is not quite as fragile as its tier 3 facesmasher is at least able to fight back vs. the corrupter. Anyways, I've rambled on enough I think. Nice build, I like it... Definitely needs some tweaks and further testing... But I would not (and am not) dismissing this as a viable build as it has a lot of "wiggle room" which allows for easy adaptation to what your opponent is going.
Also, if I were playing this I would definitely try and get a Mothership out before Carrier production began. Mothership offers SO much mobility it's crazy. I usually just keep her parked at home, go all in vs an expansion of an opponent, and if their forces are going to destroy mine or if they're going for a counterattack, Mass Recall is just soooooo good. Usually you're able to snipe an expo with minimal losses while at the same time being completely able to come back at a moments notice to either retreat or defend your base. Mothership is a highly unused unit but I love it a LOT. If I were you, I would test it out a little bit and see how it goes.
Couldn't have said it better myself, hope you enjoy this strategy and feel free to post feedback :D
On March 23 2011 04:50 Euronyme wrote: So are there so far any progamer who's tried this build out? I'd be thrilled to see a refined version of this build. It reminds me of HuK's old funday monday stuff, where you had to build a carrier before you were allowed to expand.
You mean Day[9]'s Funday Monday? Also that's a carrier rush, this is by no means a carrier rush.
After watching the GSTL Twilight fOu did a double stargate play against Fruitdealer except he messed up a lot. + Show Spoiler +
yet he still won lol
I mean the funday monday HuK was on. I don't know anyone but day9 doing funday mondays, so that ought to be obvious :p It was admittedly a bit clumsily written though. So far I've only seen carriers against terran in the highest levels of play, and only once successfully (the hongun gsl game way back). It'll be interesting to check out the replays, but still. I feel like it's required to be tested, refined and approved by a progamer to be considered a solid, good build. Dunno, just my opinion though.
On March 23 2011 04:50 Euronyme wrote: So are there so far any progamer who's tried this build out? I'd be thrilled to see a refined version of this build. It reminds me of HuK's old funday monday stuff, where you had to build a carrier before you were allowed to expand.
You mean Day[9]'s Funday Monday? Also that's a carrier rush, this is by no means a carrier rush.
After watching the GSTL Twilight fOu did a double stargate play against Fruitdealer except he messed up a lot. + Show Spoiler +
yet he still won lol
I mean the funday monday HuK was on. I don't know anyone but day9 doing funday mondays, so that ought to be obvious :p It was admittedly a bit clumsily written though. So far I've only seen carriers against terran in the highest levels of play, and only once successfully (the hongun gsl game way back). It'll be interesting to check out the replays, but still. I feel like it's required to be tested, refined and approved by a progamer to be considered a solid, good build. Dunno, just my opinion though.
Sure, I'm just trying to validate the strategy as a viable build :D
I also have found that a pretty late transition into carriers works wonders, and a lot of voidrays with good ff's + chargelots work wonders, I mean like 10+ voids lol :D
I feel I must say this as I mentioned it before... Imagine in any one of those epic battles how different it would have been if you'd had a Mothership in the mix. Nevermind the necessity of needing a couple of Overseers to spot the army (you can easily keep big momma at the back of the engagement... Especially since she's super fat and slow). Also consider if you were able to send a fleet of Carriers to one of the outlying expos and recall back if he decided to counter. I really feel like Mothership is absolutely key in this matchup, as the tech to it is 100% natural and it is such a potent unit vs Zerg. Even if you can't Archon toilet anymore, theres something to be said about throwing a ton of Zealots into the Vortex and having them ready to dish out some pain when they pop out.
Plus the added bonus is that it keeps your Carriers alive long enough to do the critical damage they need to do, since even with detection, the opponent is likely going to target the Mothership in the battle. I'm a huge believer in big momma, as she is so difficult to deal with when you have a nice army to support her.
Both of us didn't play our best, and I floated like 3k minerals at one point, but this was a fun game. We were basically dead even until the last couple of minutes when my upgrades overpowered anything he had. He threw everything at me that game, infestors, banelings, mutas, corruptors, ultras, hydras, roaches... that was probably his error..should have massed one unit over another..
watched your game, hierarch, that looked really fun. I think we've proven that it can work, with adjustments to what the zerg is doing, but I don't think this build is refined as well as it should be. Even you float 1k 1k numerous times. Also, I think if carriers is the end game unit of choice, its better to get 10+ of them with +3 attack, anything less can get stomped by a competent player.
I'll spend the better part of tomorrow racking my brain for a good flow of buildings/units on 2+ bases. Something tells me fast +3 shields with archons can be devastating >:D
On March 23 2011 13:49 CrAzEdMiKe wrote: I feel I must say this as I mentioned it before... Imagine in any one of those epic battles how different it would have been if you'd had a Mothership in the mix. Nevermind the necessity of needing a couple of Overseers to spot the army (you can easily keep big momma at the back of the engagement... Especially since she's super fat and slow). Also consider if you were able to send a fleet of Carriers to one of the outlying expos and recall back if he decided to counter. I really feel like Mothership is absolutely key in this matchup, as the tech to it is 100% natural and it is such a potent unit vs Zerg. Even if you can't Archon toilet anymore, theres something to be said about throwing a ton of Zealots into the Vortex and having them ready to dish out some pain when they pop out.
Plus the added bonus is that it keeps your Carriers alive long enough to do the critical damage they need to do, since even with detection, the opponent is likely going to target the Mothership in the battle. I'm a huge believer in big momma, as she is so difficult to deal with when you have a nice army to support her.
I actually just forgot to get one lol, just slipped my mind in the heat of playing. I usually get one and I agree mothership is totally worth it and helps a ton :D
On March 23 2011 14:16 mamuto wrote:
I got them carriers, and I gotta say.... awesome.
Both of us didn't play our best, and I floated like 3k minerals at one point, but this was a fun game. We were basically dead even until the last couple of minutes when my upgrades overpowered anything he had. He threw everything at me that game, infestors, banelings, mutas, corruptors, ultras, hydras, roaches... that was probably his error..should have massed one unit over another..
watched your game, hierarch, that looked really fun. I think we've proven that it can work, with adjustments to what the zerg is doing, but I don't think this build is refined as well as it should be. Even you float 1k 1k numerous times. Also, I think if carriers is the end game unit of choice, its better to get 10+ of them with +3 attack, anything less can get stomped by a competent player.
I'll spend the better part of tomorrow racking my brain for a good flow of buildings/units on 2+ bases. Something tells me fast +3 shields with archons can be devastating >:D
Archons are ridiculous against zerg, I should be making them more tbh lol, I forgot to get my dark shrine in my game and DT's would have helped so much. The floating money part just has to do with not as refined mechanics lol XD
On March 23 2011 13:49 CrAzEdMiKe wrote: I feel I must say this as I mentioned it before... Imagine in any one of those epic battles how different it would have been if you'd had a Mothership in the mix. Nevermind the necessity of needing a couple of Overseers to spot the army (you can easily keep big momma at the back of the engagement... Especially since she's super fat and slow). Also consider if you were able to send a fleet of Carriers to one of the outlying expos and recall back if he decided to counter. I really feel like Mothership is absolutely key in this matchup, as the tech to it is 100% natural and it is such a potent unit vs Zerg. Even if you can't Archon toilet anymore, theres something to be said about throwing a ton of Zealots into the Vortex and having them ready to dish out some pain when they pop out.
Plus the added bonus is that it keeps your Carriers alive long enough to do the critical damage they need to do, since even with detection, the opponent is likely going to target the Mothership in the battle. I'm a huge believer in big momma, as she is so difficult to deal with when you have a nice army to support her.
brilliant. I just found something to sink my gas/minerals on upon getting my third base :D and, if I will be going for fast +3 air attack and +3 shields, thats +3 shields on a 350 shield unit... seems promising, CrAzEdMiKe.
in PvZ, I go Cannon Contain into Mass Phoenix with a VR follow up. I do this since I can easily chrono out a few VR's if they use roaches to bust the contain (i'll have plenty of time between losing the cannons and the roaches arriving at my front door), and Mutas (The most common response I've seen to cannon contains in Bronze ZvP) are utterly worthless vs Phoenix. I usually have enough minerals floating around to grab my expansion and throw cannons around the mineral line/tech while I am waiting on Cyber Core and my first Stargate. If I am not forced to pump VRs prematurely, I'll usually start pumping them out after 6 or 8 Phoenix are out since this number of them are usually able to cripple the zerg economy even if Spore Cannons are laid out while I'm getting my VRs. Not sure how this style would fare at higher levels, I imagine that higher level zerg would be able to break the contain before I can get my first Stargate via their Roaches, or they are more likely to Nydus Network all-in than they are going for Mutas.
New game from the ladder, 1st time playing this map, my build was a bit delayed/non optimal and my phoenix harass was lackluster. But lucky for me phoenix provide amazing scouting :D
On March 24 2011 13:23 mamuto wrote: How would you deal with mass hydra, im talking like 40-45 with equal upgrades to you?
Carriers, ff's, zealots and archons. Or when I scout it I could throw down a robo bay and make 2-4 colossus or I could get storm. Lots of options since phoenix give me such great scouting :D
SlayerS Alicia showed how you could stop a baneling bust effectively and then punish it using Double Stargate play so all the people saying that early baneling pressure would break my strategy it has been shown defendable on a pro level
On March 25 2011 07:55 Hierarch wrote: In the GSTL + Show Spoiler +
SlayerS Alicia showed how you could stop a baneling bust effectively and then punish it using Double Stargate play so all the people saying that early baneling pressure would break my strategy it has been shown defendable on a pro level
He also used a very nicely played out proxy void ray + warp-in in PvT.
this is a great build, i'm enjoying sc2 alot more without the colossus right now! and also, now i can win against those mutas. thx for sharing your strategy
Infestors aren't that big a concern, I've had a lot of success over the past couple of days utilizing high templar drops for feedbacking them before running my phoenix in to pick off more ovies.
I should point out, that the new infestors are actually worse against phoenix harass: they do the same damage but the stun duration is cut in half. Their previous strength was to stun the phoenix, then hydras would kill them all before you could run. Now, you have a much better chance of getting them away. The difference is that zerg is now more likely to blindly get infestors as part of his plan.
This is a very gas heavy build especially when you want to throw in the colossi, which I believe means you need either 2 base + extended period of time with no loses or 3+ bases with full gas saturation. I mean all toss air units are 100+ gas, collois are 200 each, each gate is 150, a robo is 100, and beacon/bay both are 200, so even if this does manage to come out their will be very little upgrades since most gas would go to production. SO as zerg the way to defend against this is definitely by using spore crawlers, extra queens, and hydra, while being aggressive with speedlings/speed banes. If the Zerg can make a solid T2 push during the mid game between 15-20mins with tons of hydras supported by lings and creep high way he can win. Spores = assist queens/hydra with defense and provides detection for DTs Extra Queens = counter to early phoenix/void ray pushes and eventually can be used to further assist in creep spread for final attack Hydra =Use initially for defense and later for game ending push. Hydra are basically the best anti-air unit in this case due to their DPS, good range with upgrade, decent hp, and lack of not being flying or massive unit to avoid phoenix damage(unless lifted) and the void bonus. Ling/banes = Cheap, numerous, and mobile unit used to harass, distract, kill zealots, deactivate buildings, kill probes, and scout map. Due to the cost, speed, and numbers lings are easy to repopulate your army making attacks possible at any point. Then with banes and only zealots on the ground can easily do damage to the toss macro since after the zealots where does their damage go? The fact is the zerg will lose his units but in such great numbers that for a period of time during an attack the zerg can ignores the air units and if needed retreat with superior mobility. Carriers are slow units, which can easily be retreated from, the voids are single target attacking units, and the phoenixes can lift but the number of units would this make that much of a difference and worth the energy? Basically these are your throw away units used to delay, harass, distract and contain as much as possible.
TLDR = Queens/spore defense, use lings/banes to harass/delay/distract/contain, tech to hydra, build creep high way, attack with hydra/ling/bane during midgame, and prevent toss from getting 3+ bases so he does not have enough gas intake to support mass stargate + robo.
Someone tried that on me at diamond level. Maybe his timings were off but it dies to a mid-game two hatch hydra only bust with aggressive creep.
The idea is that you defend until you have enough hydras. Hydras prevent any attack from the protoss air so you can take a 3rd quick or go on the offensive as you have a decent amount. Toss can't really kill your creep (no observer :S) and on xelnaga for exemple, the highway comes very fast to the protoss door. Push with hydras, spread creep while you push, win. That was the outcome. Carriers made me laugh when he had them, you need to not target fire with hydra and you'll kill the interceptors in no time. And 4/5 carriers with 1 interceptor each is kinda bad against 20 hydras.
On March 26 2011 01:49 Ageless wrote: We need more carriers in games. They are just too expensive though, and tale too long to build. Maybe they will be buffed in patch 1.4!
Agreed, when it takes 350 gas alone to get the structures to build a 250 gas unit that takes for ever to get out, I don't see much use for it after the first attack/defend with them since it is not like you can reinforce your army any time soon with them.
I see a few problems with this build that will IMHO make it completely unplayable:
1) 3-gate into Expand and then into Air-Units is very susceptible to 2+ Base Speedling-Baneling attacks (No all-in, just Sauron-Zerg the hell out of the Toss...). If I'm able to execute this strat without having to adapt too much to maybe 4-warpgates into expansion etc. the only thing that really works against mass-base Speedling/Baneling+later on drops etc. is mass-gateway-play (Blinkstalkers+Archons+HT's). 2) Hydras alone will totally pwn anything from the Toss if he does not have any AoE whatsoever. I can maybe see that heavy Armor-Upgraded Zealots with Legs could could tank the Hydras and hold them on distance to the Carriers/VR's, but you'd have to extensively playtest that. 3) You wouldn't have to make Corruptors, cuz the Hydras are incredibly good against Air and Gateway-Units from the Toss, so theres no risk of over- or underproducing Corruptors. 4) If you don't have to make Roaches, cuz Hydras get pwned so hard by Collossi, the Zerg will actually have a strong maxed-out Army and could win in a straight-up fight, just cuz Hydras are so effective against anything but Toss-AoE.
So if the Zerg scouts well and reacts by just massing Hydras, Speedlings and maybe some Infestors, I don't see a chance for this build to be effective.
On March 25 2011 07:55 Hierarch wrote: In the GSTL + Show Spoiler +
SlayerS Alicia showed how you could stop a baneling bust effectively and then punish it using Double Stargate play so all the people saying that early baneling pressure would break my strategy it has been shown defendable on a pro level
He also used a very nicely played out proxy void ray + warp-in in PvT.
Still not seeing carriers tho. :<
I mean in that situation I wouldn't have made carriers either since voids win the game lol
On March 25 2011 20:21 Dommk wrote: New infestors shut this down so hard now :/
You need Voidrays to combat Corruptors but with new Infestors, they can kill your Voidrays without even engaging with their Corruptors
It could work if you have Templar, but that is so hard to do if you are going pure Stargate tech.
What's the range on infesters FG? Also it's not that expensive to get the templar archives and then not research storm and mix in 4-5 templar, I think Feedback range is higher than infester FG range. Also Infesters are incredibly gas intensive, so to be fair they won't have nearly the same amount of corrupters and/or hydras they could have had.
On March 25 2011 23:12 gertg wrote: this is a great build, i'm enjoying sc2 alot more without the colossus right now! and also, now i can win against those mutas. thx for sharing your strategy
No problem, glad you're enjoying it, the game does seem more fun without colossus :D
On March 25 2011 23:50 Whitewing wrote: Infestors aren't that big a concern, I've had a lot of success over the past couple of days utilizing high templar drops for feedbacking them before running my phoenix in to pick off more ovies.
I should point out, that the new infestors are actually worse against phoenix harass: they do the same damage but the stun duration is cut in half. Their previous strength was to stun the phoenix, then hydras would kill them all before you could run. Now, you have a much better chance of getting them away. The difference is that zerg is now more likely to blindly get infestors as part of his plan.
This is true, another good part about less stun duration is that phoenix can then run and pick up the infesters, infesters get killed by phoenix quite fast due to their low hp, and HT can always feedback them.
On March 26 2011 01:22 P0ckets wrote: This is a very gas heavy build especially when you want to throw in the colossi, which I believe means you need either 2 base + extended period of time with no loses or 3+ bases with full gas saturation. I mean all toss air units are 100+ gas, collois are 200 each, each gate is 150, a robo is 100, and beacon/bay both are 200, so even if this does manage to come out their will be very little upgrades since most gas would go to production. SO as zerg the way to defend against this is definitely by using spore crawlers, extra queens, and hydra, while being aggressive with speedlings/speed banes. If the Zerg can make a solid T2 push during the mid game between 15-20mins with tons of hydras supported by lings and creep high way he can win. Spores = assist queens/hydra with defense and provides detection for DTs Extra Queens = counter to early phoenix/void ray pushes and eventually can be used to further assist in creep spread for final attack Hydra =Use initially for defense and later for game ending push. Hydra are basically the best anti-air unit in this case due to their DPS, good range with upgrade, decent hp, and lack of not being flying or massive unit to avoid phoenix damage(unless lifted) and the void bonus. Ling/banes = Cheap, numerous, and mobile unit used to harass, distract, kill zealots, deactivate buildings, kill probes, and scout map. Due to the cost, speed, and numbers lings are easy to repopulate your army making attacks possible at any point. Then with banes and only zealots on the ground can easily do damage to the toss macro since after the zealots where does their damage go? The fact is the zerg will lose his units but in such great numbers that for a period of time during an attack the zerg can ignores the air units and if needed retreat with superior mobility. Carriers are slow units, which can easily be retreated from, the voids are single target attacking units, and the phoenixes can lift but the number of units would this make that much of a difference and worth the energy? Basically these are your throw away units used to delay, harass, distract and contain as much as possible.
TLDR = Queens/spore defense, use lings/banes to harass/delay/distract/contain, tech to hydra, build creep high way, attack with hydra/ling/bane during midgame, and prevent toss from getting 3+ bases so he does not have enough gas intake to support mass stargate + robo.
Just my thoughts
Your points are fine except for the fact that this build is designed not to build colossus, so I don't understand why you even mentioned colossus in my strategy.
On March 26 2011 01:31 Bellygareth wrote: Someone tried that on me at diamond level. Maybe his timings were off but it dies to a mid-game two hatch hydra only bust with aggressive creep.
The idea is that you defend until you have enough hydras. Hydras prevent any attack from the protoss air so you can take a 3rd quick or go on the offensive as you have a decent amount. Toss can't really kill your creep (no observer :S) and on xelnaga for exemple, the highway comes very fast to the protoss door. Push with hydras, spread creep while you push, win. That was the outcome. Carriers made me laugh when he had them, you need to not target fire with hydra and you'll kill the interceptors in no time. And 4/5 carriers with 1 interceptor each is kinda bad against 20 hydras.
I started getting my robo a lot earlier for this reason just for an observer or two. As long as I keep the creep back enough that Hydras can't attack me with creep close by I feel it's manageable.
On March 26 2011 01:49 Ageless wrote: We need more carriers in games. They are just too expensive though, and tale too long to build. Maybe they will be buffed in patch 1.4!
Agreed, when it takes 350 gas alone to get the structures to build a 250 gas unit that takes for ever to get out, I don't see much use for it after the first attack/defend with them since it is not like you can reinforce your army any time soon with them.
The point of them is use as a support/siege unit like the colossus, and with voidrays and 4 or so carriers after you win a major battle you can refill your army from 4 stargates with carriers and hit that critical mass.
But I personally would LOVE a carrier buff in the next patch :D
On March 26 2011 02:18 kickinhead wrote: I see a few problems with this build that will IMHO make it completely unplayable:
1) 3-gate into Expand and then into Air-Units is very susceptible to 2+ Base Speedling-Baneling attacks (No all-in, just Sauron-Zerg the hell out of the Toss...). If I'm able to execute this strat without having to adapt too much to maybe 4-warpgates into expansion etc. the only thing that really works against mass-base Speedling/Baneling+later on drops etc. is mass-gateway-play (Blinkstalkers+Archons+HT's). 2) Hydras alone will totally pwn anything from the Toss if he does not have any AoE whatsoever. I can maybe see that heavy Armor-Upgraded Zealots with Legs could could tank the Hydras and hold them on distance to the Carriers/VR's, but you'd have to extensively playtest that. 3) You wouldn't have to make Corruptors, cuz the Hydras are incredibly good against Air and Gateway-Units from the Toss, so theres no risk of over- or underproducing Corruptors. 4) If you don't have to make Roaches, cuz Hydras get pwned so hard by Collossi, the Zerg will actually have a strong maxed-out Army and could win in a straight-up fight, just cuz Hydras are so effective against anything but Toss-AoE.
So if the Zerg scouts well and reacts by just massing Hydras, Speedlings and maybe some Infestors, I don't see a chance for this build to be effective.
you are very on hydras.a good toss will want to fight vs hydras.cause they dont own gw units not that effective.just watch mc games vs july.pure blink stalkers owned hydras bad.hydras are good if you are going to bust.
On March 26 2011 02:18 kickinhead wrote: I see a few problems with this build that will IMHO make it completely unplayable:
1) 3-gate into Expand and then into Air-Units is very susceptible to 2+ Base Speedling-Baneling attacks (No all-in, just Sauron-Zerg the hell out of the Toss...). If I'm able to execute this strat without having to adapt too much to maybe 4-warpgates into expansion etc. the only thing that really works against mass-base Speedling/Baneling+later on drops etc. is mass-gateway-play (Blinkstalkers+Archons+HT's). 2) Hydras alone will totally pwn anything from the Toss if he does not have any AoE whatsoever. I can maybe see that heavy Armor-Upgraded Zealots with Legs could could tank the Hydras and hold them on distance to the Carriers/VR's, but you'd have to extensively playtest that. 3) You wouldn't have to make Corruptors, cuz the Hydras are incredibly good against Air and Gateway-Units from the Toss, so theres no risk of over- or underproducing Corruptors. 4) If you don't have to make Roaches, cuz Hydras get pwned so hard by Collossi, the Zerg will actually have a strong maxed-out Army and could win in a straight-up fight, just cuz Hydras are so effective against anything but Toss-AoE.
So if the Zerg scouts well and reacts by just massing Hydras, Speedlings and maybe some Infestors, I don't see a chance for this build to be effective.
I'll answer point by point:
1) I have started getting hallucination now to get a much earlier scout in, and when I see high eco ling/bling I actually don't do this strategy, I go into standard colossus play and canon up. I had a game on xel naga where this happened to me, and I agree that 2 stargate play doesn't work against it effectively. But that's the beauty of using this standard opener, you can transition into basically anything you want.
2) I have extensively tested against hydras and unless on creep they don't stand a chance, they die too quickly to zealots with legs, archons, and carriers. They also are outranged by carriers and archons and zealots provide great buffers, also zealots cost no gas which makes them awesome.
3) I've had people try just 100% pure hydra and it works to defend, but it doesn't provide a very mobile offensive, and once you attack with hydras off creep you are committed to that attack.
4) Maxed hydras are actually not that good since they are so slow they have a hard time forming a concave in battles and ff's exacerbate that problem even more. Also if I see 100% pure hydra I will get storm instead of DT's.
This last line could be said of any race against any strategy, if you scout well and build counters it will have a good chance to beat the opposing strategy, it doesn't make the enemies strategy invalid or unviable.
I am so excited to try this my pvz has been so boring and predictable I feel like every zerg could just blind counter it so something unusual is just what I am after.
I've been experimenting with this on ladder and here's what I found. A roach/hydra push is defendable with good forcefields. Split the army in half and your voids/pheonices will clean up. The danger comes when your pheonices(that correct grammar?) are halfway across the map. Hydra/ling works well against this, especially with banes. However, if your pheonices pick up the banes then it can work out. Lastly, if they get roaches, you can usually win with the void ray timing. Also, when should I get my robo and my Dark Shrine? Anyways, very cool build!
Why would you first go for ground weapons +1 attack? I feel that (in my theorycrafting opinion) that you may want to put the emphasis on ground armor to keep zealots alive longer. Maybe even shield research would be worthwhile since it would benefit both your air and ground units.
Just a thought, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts
On March 26 2011 03:07 ZoneofEnders wrote: I am so excited to try this my pvz has been so boring and predictable I feel like every zerg could just blind counter it so something unusual is just what I am after.
Hope you enjoy it and have fun :D
On March 26 2011 03:19 ntvarify wrote: I've been experimenting with this on ladder and here's what I found. A roach/hydra push is defendable with good forcefields. Split the army in half and your voids/pheonices will clean up. The danger comes when your pheonices(that correct grammar?) are halfway across the map. Hydra/ling works well against this, especially with banes. However, if your pheonices pick up the banes then it can work out. Lastly, if they get roaches, you can usually win with the void ray timing. Also, when should I get my robo and my Dark Shrine? Anyways, very cool build!
ya, always being mindful of where your phoenixes are and knowing when they are needed is something that is learned through experience, I usually get my robo When my natural is fully saturated, since a lot of zergs will burrow units at your 3rd and you need to start pushing the creep back. I get my Dark Shrine as more of a "feel" building, like when I feel it will be worth getting, but most of the time that timing is around when my 3rd is complete, but sometimes I get it later,DT's are the ultimate in "Surprise!" if zerg isn't on the ball they can lose hatches and a ton of drones to like 3-4 DT's.
On March 26 2011 03:29 ShamTao wrote: I've got a question for the OP:
Why would you first go for ground weapons +1 attack? I feel that (in my theorycrafting opinion) that you may want to put the emphasis on ground armor to keep zealots alive longer. Maybe even shield research would be worthwhile since it would benefit both your air and ground units.
Just a thought, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts
Hmm, that's a very good point, I'll start going shields on ground units 1st and see how it works, thanks for the insight :D
Ok Ive only lost twice to this strategy. It was roach hydras. The problem is that the roaches RAPE the zealots and archons.And then the mass of hydras just absolutely rape thie interceptors. The first battle is usually a stalemate but he can remax a LOT faster.
On March 26 2011 03:41 SkaPunk wrote: Ok Ive only lost twice to this strategy. It was roach hydras. The problem is that the roaches RAPE the zealots and archons.And then the mass of hydras just absolutely rape thie interceptors. The first battle is usually a stalemate but he can remax a LOT faster.
When I'm maxed I usually go up to 10-12 gateways and 4 stargates, I use ff's to separate hydras and roaches since most people put roaches in front, then my carriers and voidrays kill a lot of the roaches and I keep my gateway units back and once a lot of the roach numbers have been thinned I send in my gateway units to help. Also I usually keep 2-3 DT's in my army since overseers just get caught in the carnage by my air units and then DT's just do insane damage.
As a zerg, I find that I have a friggin MISERABLE TIME trying to beat protoss if my third base gets slowed down - something that a gateway push doesn't really accomplish (ling/roach/bane/whatever can hold it) and a colossus push is too slow for (third is up and running before colossus push is ready). A void ray lasering my third hatch while I have to build shit to deal with phoenix harass would make me shit bricks - sure, I'll have anti air to deal with phoenix harass... but IN MY BASE, and not AT MY THIRD unless it's like tal'darim altar and my third is close enough to my base that I dont have to move that far off creep to get hydras/queens there.
I honestly feel like that's one of the major strengths - the ability to slow 3rd+ bases of the zerg. Less sure about the DT transition, but it would probably work OK since overseers have to fear for their lives and the zerg might not be able to handle taking a 4th/5th base against Air+DT.
upgraded Chargelots actually do pretty decently against hydras, too, without a roach front for them, and this play is going to make the zerg want to skew more heavily towards super-squishy hydras. Maybe adding storm at some point just to murder hydras even MORE, though storm is less helpful against corruptors (though corruptors won't save the zerg from the zealot heavy ground comp)
In terms of remaxing, if the zerg can only kill interceptors and not the carriers themselves, those "remax" basically instantly. (well, in time for the next fight for sure) Food for thought.
On March 26 2011 01:22 P0ckets wrote: This is a very gas heavy build especially when you want to throw in the colossi, which I believe means you need either 2 base + extended period of time with no loses or 3+ bases with full gas saturation. I mean all toss air units are 100+ gas, collois are 200 each, each gate is 150, a robo is 100, and beacon/bay both are 200, so even if this does manage to come out their will be very little upgrades since most gas would go to production.
A) Colossi are nowhere in the game plan. Literally nowhere. Reread the game plan. A.5) It's actually cheaper (in all 3: gas/mins/time) to go Stargate opening -> tech to carriers with catapult upgrade than it is to go Stargate -> Tech to colossi with range upgrade. B) The build is designed for 3 bases with full gas saturation, and has a well-thought-out plan to get there on even terms.
On March 26 2011 02:18 kickinhead wrote: I see a few problems with this build that will IMHO make it completely unplayable:
1) 3-gate into Expand and then into Air-Units is very susceptible to 2+ Base Speedling-Baneling attacks (No all-in, just Sauron-Zerg the hell out of the Toss...). If I'm able to execute this strat without having to adapt too much to maybe 4-warpgates into expansion etc. the only thing that really works against mass-base Speedling/Baneling+later on drops etc. is mass-gateway-play (Blinkstalkers+Archons+HT's). 2) Hydras alone will totally pwn anything from the Toss if he does not have any AoE whatsoever. I can maybe see that heavy Armor-Upgraded Zealots with Legs could could tank the Hydras and hold them on distance to the Carriers/VR's, but you'd have to extensively playtest that. 3) You wouldn't have to make Corruptors, cuz the Hydras are incredibly good against Air and Gateway-Units from the Toss, so theres no risk of over- or underproducing Corruptors. 4) If you don't have to make Roaches, cuz Hydras get pwned so hard by Collossi, the Zerg will actually have a strong maxed-out Army and could win in a straight-up fight, just cuz Hydras are so effective against anything but Toss-AoE.
So if the Zerg scouts well and reacts by just massing Hydras, Speedlings and maybe some Infestors, I don't see a chance for this build to be effective.
1) What? Sentries have the ability to shut down speedling/baneling attacks like, entirely. This build has A) the ability to adapt to such aggression and B) Cannons/At least 1 void ray to assist in this defense.
The weakest point in a 3gate expand, IMO, is when the protoss pressures the zerg with their sentry-zealot mix. The goal of such pressure is to force the zerg to quit droning without cares, but toss runs a risk of losing that push in the middle of the map. This build doesn't need to pressure as hard with this because it has void ray and phoenix en route which can pressure with pretty much zero risk of the retreat being cut off.
2) Carriers vs Hydras is skewed towards carriers. No really. Especially off-creep. Worst thing that happens is you lose some interceptors but kill some hydras and back off (hydras can't chase effectively) and interceptors are way cheaper than hydras.
which brings us to 3: You do have to build corruptors, hydras can't handle carriers with no air support, as mentioned in 2.
4) Chargelots (the assigned mineral dump) will murder hydras cost for cost if you don't make any roaches.
Your theorycrafting has holes everywhere. I wants me some other people trying this out. I'm a mid diamond zerg looking to practice against this!
@OP - stick with the +1 attack for ground, IMO. It brings Zealot vs Hydralisk (a matchup you are expecting) from 6 hits (81 HP effectively.. 1 hp regens immediately) to 5 hits. From there, shields might be nice if the zerg doesn't get carapace.
On March 26 2011 03:41 SkaPunk wrote: Ok Ive only lost twice to this strategy. It was roach hydras. The problem is that the roaches RAPE the zealots and archons.And then the mass of hydras just absolutely rape thie interceptors. The first battle is usually a stalemate but he can remax a LOT faster.
When I'm maxed I usually go up to 10-12 gateways and 4 stargates, I use ff's to separate hydras and roaches since most people put roaches in front, then my carriers and voidrays kill a lot of the roaches and I keep my gateway units back and once a lot of the roach numbers have been thinned I send in my gateway units to help. Also I usually keep 2-3 DT's in my army since overseers just get caught in the carnage by my air units and then DT's just do insane damage.
I like it, I like it. But if you separate the hydras cant they still pick off the interceptors?
Mass void ray would probably be more effective against virtually all zerg unit compositions except infestor/hydra play.
Corruptor is the best counter in the game to the carrier because of its +massive damage and because of its base 2 armor. At even upgrades interceptors do 6 damage per volley to a corruptor. Yes you can mix in void rays, but even if zerg loses battle one he'll outproduce you on the 2nd round.
Carriers are viable in virtually every MU until the opponent overproduces the counter unit to kill them.
What really should be mentioned is archons. Archons guarding the carriers will do tremendous damage to clumped corruptors, and magic boxing corruptors is not what zerg wants to do going into a carrier fight. It doesn't even require that many archons. Psi storm works in theory but in practice zerg can move his corruptors on top of your army to prevent you from storming.
On March 26 2011 02:18 kickinhead wrote: I see a few problems with this build that will IMHO make it completely unplayable:
1) 3-gate into Expand and then into Air-Units is very susceptible to 2+ Base Speedling-Baneling attacks (No all-in, just Sauron-Zerg the hell out of the Toss...). If I'm able to execute this strat without having to adapt too much to maybe 4-warpgates into expansion etc. the only thing that really works against mass-base Speedling/Baneling+later on drops etc. is mass-gateway-play (Blinkstalkers+Archons+HT's). 2) Hydras alone will totally pwn anything from the Toss if he does not have any AoE whatsoever. I can maybe see that heavy Armor-Upgraded Zealots with Legs could could tank the Hydras and hold them on distance to the Carriers/VR's, but you'd have to extensively playtest that. 3) You wouldn't have to make Corruptors, cuz the Hydras are incredibly good against Air and Gateway-Units from the Toss, so theres no risk of over- or underproducing Corruptors. 4) If you don't have to make Roaches, cuz Hydras get pwned so hard by Collossi, the Zerg will actually have a strong maxed-out Army and could win in a straight-up fight, just cuz Hydras are so effective against anything but Toss-AoE.
So if the Zerg scouts well and reacts by just massing Hydras, Speedlings and maybe some Infestors, I don't see a chance for this build to be effective.
I'll answer point by point:
1) I have started getting hallucination now to get a much earlier scout in, and when I see high eco ling/bling I actually don't do this strategy, I go into standard colossus play and canon up. I had a game on xel naga where this happened to me, and I agree that 2 stargate play doesn't work against it effectively. But that's the beauty of using this standard opener, you can transition into basically anything you want.
2) I have extensively tested against hydras and unless on creep they don't stand a chance, they die too quickly to zealots with legs, archons, and carriers. They also are outranged by carriers and archons and zealots provide great buffers, also zealots cost no gas which makes them awesome.
3) I've had people try just 100% pure hydra and it works to defend, but it doesn't provide a very mobile offensive, and once you attack with hydras off creep you are committed to that attack.
4) Maxed hydras are actually not that good since they are so slow they have a hard time forming a concave in battles and ff's exacerbate that problem even more. Also if I see 100% pure hydra I will get storm instead of DT's.
This last line could be said of any race against any strategy, if you scout well and build counters it will have a good chance to beat the opposing strategy, it doesn't make the enemies strategy invalid or unviable.
You're not considering an hydra "allin" kicking before you can get archons and maybe even speed for your zealots. On the smallest maps (2v2 maps), I see your strat fail to that hydra attack, which can be allin but it doesn't matter because it'll work and kill you right there.
I have no experience against it on the largest maps, but then again on largest maps zerg probably have other options and can try to harrass with lings against your slow carriers for ex. < I have yet to see how it plays out.
On March 26 2011 03:41 SkaPunk wrote: Ok Ive only lost twice to this strategy. It was roach hydras. The problem is that the roaches RAPE the zealots and archons.And then the mass of hydras just absolutely rape thie interceptors. The first battle is usually a stalemate but he can remax a LOT faster.
When I'm maxed I usually go up to 10-12 gateways and 4 stargates, I use ff's to separate hydras and roaches since most people put roaches in front, then my carriers and voidrays kill a lot of the roaches and I keep my gateway units back and once a lot of the roach numbers have been thinned I send in my gateway units to help. Also I usually keep 2-3 DT's in my army since overseers just get caught in the carnage by my air units and then DT's just do insane damage.
I like it, I like it. But if you separate the hydras cant they still pick off the interceptors?
Hydras aren't like marines against interecepters, I think it has to do with the fact that they shoot a projectile while marines do damage instantaneously with their rifles, however I may be wrong but I feel like my intercepters survive longer vs hydras. Also if they're busy shooting intercepters, which do damage themselves, the rest of my army isn't being hit :D
I wrote a really long detailed post and then my computer decided to eat it, so I'm going to quickly point out a few things that I feel are the REAL strengths of the build.
A) It's super safe early to mid game. Since you have a really fast and mobile harass force, you can leave the bulk of your army at home which keeps you very safe. You also get a very good scout off of what your opponent is doing as well as being virtually invincible from Mutalisk harass.
B) The Zerg is only capable of going for a few routes of dealing with this type of strategy. The Protoss player finds out pretty quickly what route the Zerg chooses to go and adapts his build accordingly (If he sees a lot of Corrupters, he makes lots of Voids, Infestors, HT etc). This all sounds super simple and everyone should do it, but it's not often you are able to really really scout what kind of unit composition the opponent is going. This is why Mutalisk harass is often so effective when the Zerg employs it, not only does it harass the opponent but the Zerg knows what kind of units the opponent will have to make in order to deal with the Mutas, and then techs in advance.
C) Straight to Mothership access. I made a huge deal about this in previous posts, and I made a super long detailed one before I lost it here... But if you don't believe that Mothership is awesome in PvZ, then you clearly haven't tried it.
I honestly don't believe that the build is designed to be played like "You make X of this unit, Y of this unit and Z of this unit and the Zerg cannot stop you!" The build is meant to provoke a certain type of reaction and if you execute right, you are already getting a step ahead of your opponent by preparing whatever it is that you need to fight that unit he's planning on untilizing.
Again, I wanted this to be way more detailed... But meh. You get the picture.
On March 26 2011 03:52 sylverfyre wrote: As a zerg, I find that I have a friggin MISERABLE TIME trying to beat protoss if my third base gets slowed down - something that a gateway push doesn't really accomplish (ling/roach/bane/whatever can hold it) and a colossus push is too slow for (third is up and running before colossus push is ready). A void ray lasering my third hatch while I have to build shit to deal with phoenix harass would make me shit bricks - sure, I'll have anti air to deal with phoenix harass... but IN MY BASE, and not AT MY THIRD unless it's like tal'darim altar and my third is close enough to my base that I dont have to move that far off creep to get hydras/queens there.
I honestly feel like that's one of the major strengths - the ability to slow 3rd+ bases of the zerg. Less sure about the DT transition, but it would probably work OK since overseers have to fear for their lives and the zerg might not be able to handle taking a 4th/5th base against Air+DT.
upgraded Chargelots actually do pretty decently against hydras, too, without a roach front for them, and this play is going to make the zerg want to skew more heavily towards super-squishy hydras. Maybe adding storm at some point just to murder hydras even MORE, though storm is less helpful against corruptors (though corruptors won't save the zerg from the zealot heavy ground comp)
In terms of remaxing, if the zerg can only kill interceptors and not the carriers themselves, those "remax" basically instantly. (well, in time for the next fight for sure) Food for thought.
On March 26 2011 01:22 P0ckets wrote: This is a very gas heavy build especially when you want to throw in the colossi, which I believe means you need either 2 base + extended period of time with no loses or 3+ bases with full gas saturation. I mean all toss air units are 100+ gas, collois are 200 each, each gate is 150, a robo is 100, and beacon/bay both are 200, so even if this does manage to come out their will be very little upgrades since most gas would go to production.
A) Colossi are nowhere in the game plan. Literally nowhere. Reread the game plan. A.5) It's actually cheaper (in all 3: gas/mins/time) to go Stargate opening -> tech to carriers with catapult upgrade than it is to go Stargate -> Tech to colossi with range upgrade. B) The build is designed for 3 bases with full gas saturation, and has a well-thought-out plan to get there on even terms.
On March 26 2011 02:18 kickinhead wrote: I see a few problems with this build that will IMHO make it completely unplayable:
1) 3-gate into Expand and then into Air-Units is very susceptible to 2+ Base Speedling-Baneling attacks (No all-in, just Sauron-Zerg the hell out of the Toss...). If I'm able to execute this strat without having to adapt too much to maybe 4-warpgates into expansion etc. the only thing that really works against mass-base Speedling/Baneling+later on drops etc. is mass-gateway-play (Blinkstalkers+Archons+HT's). 2) Hydras alone will totally pwn anything from the Toss if he does not have any AoE whatsoever. I can maybe see that heavy Armor-Upgraded Zealots with Legs could could tank the Hydras and hold them on distance to the Carriers/VR's, but you'd have to extensively playtest that. 3) You wouldn't have to make Corruptors, cuz the Hydras are incredibly good against Air and Gateway-Units from the Toss, so theres no risk of over- or underproducing Corruptors. 4) If you don't have to make Roaches, cuz Hydras get pwned so hard by Collossi, the Zerg will actually have a strong maxed-out Army and could win in a straight-up fight, just cuz Hydras are so effective against anything but Toss-AoE.
So if the Zerg scouts well and reacts by just massing Hydras, Speedlings and maybe some Infestors, I don't see a chance for this build to be effective.
1) What? Sentries have the ability to shut down speedling/baneling attacks like, entirely. This build has A) the ability to adapt to such aggression and B) Cannons/At least 1 void ray to assist in this defense.
The weakest point in a 3gate expand, IMO, is when the protoss pressures the zerg with their sentry-zealot mix. The goal of such pressure is to force the zerg to quit droning without cares, but toss runs a risk of losing that push in the middle of the map. This build doesn't need to pressure as hard with this because it has void ray and phoenix en route which can pressure with pretty much zero risk of the retreat being cut off.
2) Carriers vs Hydras is skewed towards carriers. No really. Especially off-creep. Worst thing that happens is you lose some interceptors but kill some hydras and back off (hydras can't chase effectively) and interceptors are way cheaper than hydras.
which brings us to 3: You do have to build corruptors, hydras can't handle carriers with no air support, as mentioned in 2.
4) Chargelots (the assigned mineral dump) will murder hydras cost for cost if you don't make any roaches.
Your theorycrafting has holes everywhere. I wants me some other people trying this out. I'm a mid diamond zerg looking to practice against this!
@OP - stick with the +1 attack for ground, IMO. It brings Zealot vs Hydralisk (a matchup you are expecting) from 6 hits (81 HP effectively.. 1 hp regens immediately) to 5 hits. From there, shields might be nice if the zerg doesn't get carapace.
Couldn't have said it better myself :D
I've also been going with a lot more voidray/gateway pushes, with like 6-8 voidrays. Another thing that can be done vs baneling busts is to hallucinate archons to soak damage.
On March 26 2011 06:13 CrAzEdMiKe wrote: I wrote a really long detailed post and then my computer decided to eat it, so I'm going to quickly point out a few things that I feel are the REAL strengths of the build.
A) It's super safe early to mid game. Since you have a really fast and mobile harass force, you can leave the bulk of your army at home which keeps you very safe. You also get a very good scout off of what your opponent is doing as well as being virtually invincible from Mutalisk harass.
B) The Zerg is only capable of going for a few routes of dealing with this type of strategy. The Protoss player finds out pretty quickly what route the Zerg chooses to go and adapts his build accordingly (If he sees a lot of Corrupters, he makes lots of Voids, Infestors, HT etc). This all sounds super simple and everyone should do it, but it's not often you are able to really really scout what kind of unit composition the opponent is going. This is why Mutalisk harass is often so effective when the Zerg employs it, not only does it harass the opponent but the Zerg knows what kind of units the opponent will have to make in order to deal with the Mutas, and then techs in advance.
C) Straight to Mothership access. I made a huge deal about this in previous posts, and I made a super long detailed one before I lost it here... But if you don't believe that Mothership is awesome in PvZ, then you clearly haven't tried it.
I honestly don't believe that the build is designed to be played like "You make X of this unit, Y of this unit and Z of this unit and the Zerg cannot stop you!" The build is meant to provoke a certain type of reaction and if you execute right, you are already getting a step ahead of your opponent by preparing whatever it is that you need to fight that unit he's planning on untilizing.
Again, I wanted this to be way more detailed... But meh. You get the picture.
On March 26 2011 04:17 DuneBug wrote: Mass void ray would probably be more effective against virtually all zerg unit compositions except infestor/hydra play.
Corruptor is the best counter in the game to the carrier because of its +massive damage and because of its base 2 armor. At even upgrades interceptors do 6 damage per volley to a corruptor. Yes you can mix in void rays, but even if zerg loses battle one he'll outproduce you on the 2nd round.
Carriers are viable in virtually every MU until the opponent overproduces the counter unit to kill them.
What really should be mentioned is archons. Archons guarding the carriers will do tremendous damage to clumped corruptors, and magic boxing corruptors is not what zerg wants to do going into a carrier fight. It doesn't even require that many archons. Psi storm works in theory but in practice zerg can move his corruptors on top of your army to prevent you from storming.
I do use a lot of archons in my late game play with this strategy and I replace my army with voidrays instead of carriers just to get my supply up faster, Once I hit like 170+ supply I start remaking carriers from my 4 stargates.
On March 26 2011 02:18 kickinhead wrote: I see a few problems with this build that will IMHO make it completely unplayable:
1) 3-gate into Expand and then into Air-Units is very susceptible to 2+ Base Speedling-Baneling attacks (No all-in, just Sauron-Zerg the hell out of the Toss...). If I'm able to execute this strat without having to adapt too much to maybe 4-warpgates into expansion etc. the only thing that really works against mass-base Speedling/Baneling+later on drops etc. is mass-gateway-play (Blinkstalkers+Archons+HT's). 2) Hydras alone will totally pwn anything from the Toss if he does not have any AoE whatsoever. I can maybe see that heavy Armor-Upgraded Zealots with Legs could could tank the Hydras and hold them on distance to the Carriers/VR's, but you'd have to extensively playtest that. 3) You wouldn't have to make Corruptors, cuz the Hydras are incredibly good against Air and Gateway-Units from the Toss, so theres no risk of over- or underproducing Corruptors. 4) If you don't have to make Roaches, cuz Hydras get pwned so hard by Collossi, the Zerg will actually have a strong maxed-out Army and could win in a straight-up fight, just cuz Hydras are so effective against anything but Toss-AoE.
So if the Zerg scouts well and reacts by just massing Hydras, Speedlings and maybe some Infestors, I don't see a chance for this build to be effective.
I'll answer point by point:
1) I have started getting hallucination now to get a much earlier scout in, and when I see high eco ling/bling I actually don't do this strategy, I go into standard colossus play and canon up. I had a game on xel naga where this happened to me, and I agree that 2 stargate play doesn't work against it effectively. But that's the beauty of using this standard opener, you can transition into basically anything you want.
2) I have extensively tested against hydras and unless on creep they don't stand a chance, they die too quickly to zealots with legs, archons, and carriers. They also are outranged by carriers and archons and zealots provide great buffers, also zealots cost no gas which makes them awesome.
3) I've had people try just 100% pure hydra and it works to defend, but it doesn't provide a very mobile offensive, and once you attack with hydras off creep you are committed to that attack.
4) Maxed hydras are actually not that good since they are so slow they have a hard time forming a concave in battles and ff's exacerbate that problem even more. Also if I see 100% pure hydra I will get storm instead of DT's.
This last line could be said of any race against any strategy, if you scout well and build counters it will have a good chance to beat the opposing strategy, it doesn't make the enemies strategy invalid or unviable.
You're not considering an hydra "allin" kicking before you can get archons and maybe even speed for your zealots. On the smallest maps (2v2 maps), I see your strat fail to that hydra attack, which can be allin but it doesn't matter because it'll work and kill you right there.
I have no experience against it on the largest maps, but then again on largest maps zerg probably have other options and can try to harrass with lings against your slow carriers for ex. < I have yet to see how it plays out.
Hydras off creep coming across the map to my base with canons, lets me ff and split them in half and use voidrays to kill the front half, then the second wave comes and i warp in more units and use my phoenix to help lift the hydras.
On March 18 2011 13:50 Audi309 wrote: would loooove to see some top level players extensively try to refine this strategy. the question is can you effectively deal harass so zerg can't get those hoards of units they're known for. since you wont have those aoe dealing units, this could get very tricky. will be interesting to see what comes of this.
Carriers DPS is actually insane when they get +2 or +3 air attack, and to replace the aoe for late game the intercepters help by messing up targeting AI, the 1st replay I posted demonstrates this quite well.
Ehh not really. Only true if the zerg gets no armor upgrades. Yes, it adds +2 damage to each interceptor but each interceptor only goes out every 3 seconds and if the zerg has +1 armor it acts as essentially +2 armor against carriers. I've played toss doing 2 base carrier type play and it just dies so easily to mass hydra.
On March 18 2011 13:50 Audi309 wrote: would loooove to see some top level players extensively try to refine this strategy. the question is can you effectively deal harass so zerg can't get those hoards of units they're known for. since you wont have those aoe dealing units, this could get very tricky. will be interesting to see what comes of this.
Carriers DPS is actually insane when they get +2 or +3 air attack, and to replace the aoe for late game the intercepters help by messing up targeting AI, the 1st replay I posted demonstrates this quite well.
Ehh not really. Only true if the zerg gets no armor upgrades. Yes, it adds +2 damage to each interceptor but each interceptor only goes out every 3 seconds and if the zerg has +1 armor it acts as essentially +2 armor against carriers. I've played toss doing 2 base carrier type play and it just dies so easily to mass hydra.
Well good thing this isn't a 2 base carrier strategy then...
On March 18 2011 13:50 Audi309 wrote: would loooove to see some top level players extensively try to refine this strategy. the question is can you effectively deal harass so zerg can't get those hoards of units they're known for. since you wont have those aoe dealing units, this could get very tricky. will be interesting to see what comes of this.
Carriers DPS is actually insane when they get +2 or +3 air attack, and to replace the aoe for late game the intercepters help by messing up targeting AI, the 1st replay I posted demonstrates this quite well.
Ehh not really. Only true if the zerg gets no armor upgrades. Yes, it adds +2 damage to each interceptor but each interceptor only goes out every 3 seconds and if the zerg has +1 armor it acts as essentially +2 armor against carriers. I've played toss doing 2 base carrier type play and it just dies so easily to mass hydra.
Well good thing this isn't a 2 base carrier strategy then...
This is true. I metagame the shit out of him and I immediately get +1 armor for corruptor against this build. Still get raped.
I've tried to find some stargate transitions in all matchups, and i've been leaning toward +armor charge lots(plus GS) and +attack carriers for the endgame, I find the sentry and zealots doubly necessary against hydra and rine heavy compositions, to keep interceptors from just evaporating.
So I watched your replays. I think it's too much to go more than 4 phoenixes. Past experience dictates if you dink around too much with phoenixes they can just waltz in with an all-in-ish hydra timing attack. I suppose since it's easier to transition to carriers than it is to colossus you could afford maybe 6 or even 8. Honestly, I was playing today and going more than 4 makes me very uncomfortable. From what I saw you get a LOT of phoenixes.
And I don't really like transitioning to void rays (and a lot of them in fact). Chances are the zerg is spamming hydras in response to your phoenixes and the void rays don't do that well vs the hydras and if they hit you with a hydra push it could be gameover. If I were a zerg, once I have enough spore crawlers up I should be able to attack and win or at leasts slow you down.
Personally, I have always liked to get carriers after the phoenixes. That way if the hydra push does come you can micro the carriers + zealots around to edge out a win. Only when the carriers are revealed, then I transition to void rays to anticipate the inevitable "holy crap my hydras just died to carriers time for operation 16+ corruptors". This happened so many times today. And with +2 weapons the corruptors are no match. They will almost always be behind in upgrades.
And I don't get my third until at least 2 carriers (1 cycle) or if the map is large I can get it during the phoenix attacks (slightly earlier).
So I flipped around the carriers/void ray transitions and I find that works much better.
On March 27 2011 11:31 Ownos wrote: So I watched your replays. I think it's too much to go more than 4 phoenixes. Past experience dictates if you dink around too much with phoenixes they can just waltz in with an all-in-ish hydra timing attack. I suppose since it's easier to transition to carriers than it is to colossus you could afford maybe 6 or even 8. Honestly, I was playing today and going more than 4 makes me very uncomfortable. From what I saw you get a LOT of phoenixes.
And I don't really like transitioning to void rays (and a lot of them in fact). Chances are the zerg is spamming hydras in response to your phoenixes and the void rays don't do that well vs the hydras and if they hit you with a hydra push it could be gameover. If I were a zerg, once I have enough spore crawlers up I should be able to attack and win or at leasts slow you down.
Personally, I have always liked to get carriers after the phoenixes. That way if the hydra push does come you can micro the carriers + zealots around to edge out a win. Only when the carriers are revealed, then I transition to void rays to anticipate the inevitable "holy crap my hydras just died to carriers time for operation 16+ corruptors". This happened so many times today. And with +2 weapons the corruptors are no match. They will almost always be behind in upgrades.
And I don't get my third until at least 2 carriers (1 cycle) or if the map is large I can get it during the phoenix attacks (slightly earlier).
So I flipped around the carriers/void ray transitions and I find that works much better.
That's not a bad idea, I'll try that, at most I get 10 phoenix if they just don't have enough to stop me from abusing them with my phoenix, but most of the time I stop around 5-7, I've stopped numerous hydra timings with well placed ff's,guardian shield and zealot/stalker/sentry/3 or so voidrays. Hydras are really good, when they can move at less than a snails pace. Thanks for the insight on the 2 carriers for defense, I didn't even think about that and taking your 3rd with a couple carriers for defense will make me feel super comfortable :D
i like what gemini did in his replay, and nice to see my man bitters watching in!
unless youre playing on something as awful as slag pits, its easier to get and defend a third as protoss vs zerg now, which is great for us toss because that imo is the biggest timing window zerg has to crush us, in between start of third nexus and getting decent saturation on it. after that we have the economy to make big splashy units like colossus or carrier.
geminis third was so delayed that it definitely obscured how strong what he was doing would have been if hed had his third fully producing 3-4 minutes earlier than it was, he never got more than 2 carriers on the field at a time i believe. not making VRs and colossus and going phoenix/stalker/sentry/carrier/zealot off a better-timed 3rd i think would have been incredibly powerful with carriers providing the major dps, phoenix raising, zealot/ff tanking and stalkers hitting corrupters or raised units.
3 is the magic number of bases to have the money to start experimenting with new unit compositions and styles of play, and im glad to see it. zerg and terran are adapting to deathball, protoss isnt allowed to try to adapt to their adaptations?
yes you might roll me over with a baneling sling bust or bling hydras or roach all-in, but just as likely im not an idiot and position my cannons and gateways and ffs so u either pull back or lose all ur units and dont kill my natural either way. blizzard wants macro games otherwise the naturals and thirds wouldnt be so easy to get to and defend except again on awful maps like slag pits.
there are a lot of things you can try to do with this build and i am going to check them out; one thing i would change is the dts. you might as well get warp prisms or try to hide pylons and warp-in/drop zealots on expansions; more economical and just as if not more effective than dark templar.
if there is one deciding factor to me for PvZ, it is how well i use my force fields. sure you can talk about rolling a protoss over, but with the standard 3-gate expand, good cannon placement and un-noob forcefield use, you just arent going to be rolling over a protoss nat. which is why going muta harass or getting a quick 4th is as far as i know the standard zerg response to toss 3g sentry expand.
this build to me attempts to find another way to get protoss safely through that sometimes sticky transition from t1 to 2.5 that they need to go kill some bugs effectively and with a unit for your major dps that isnt colossus yay!
On March 27 2011 13:58 DeepElemBlues wrote: if there is one deciding factor to me for PvZ, it is how well i use my force fields. sure you can talk about rolling a protoss over, but with the standard 3-gate expand, good cannon placement and un-noob forcefield use, you just arent going to be rolling over a protoss nat. which is why going muta harass or getting a quick 4th is as far as i know the standard zerg response to toss 3g sentry expand.
This is something that I really like about this build actually. I had that happen to me today where I opened up with the Sentry expand and my opponent opted to go for Muta harass. By the time Mutas ended up in my base, I had plenty of Phoenix to take care of them.
I personally like having about 8 Phoenix as they are in a large enough number that they can do some serious harassment. With four it's kind of like sending in one Hellion to harass vs sending in 4. Yes you can harass with one Hellion, but you can do a LOT of damage with 4. Same principle... And I find that Phoenix don't ever really become "useless" as they do a ton of scouting, keep the opponent on his toes and also when that engagement occurs, lifting up a bunch of the DPS is soooo good (namely Hydras).
When I wrecked a huge chunk of his economy with my Phoenix (I had over 10 since he went heavy Muta) he basically had to all in me and tried a baneling bust... Even though my Forcefields were absolutely atrocious, it still wasn't even close. Granted, we're both terrible players so our micro/macro was by no means superb... But I do feel that the strategy is sound as I feel very secure when I'm utilizing it.
On March 27 2011 13:58 DeepElemBlues wrote: i like what gemini did in his replay, and nice to see my man bitters watching in!
unless youre playing on something as awful as slag pits, its easier to get and defend a third as protoss vs zerg now, which is great for us toss because that imo is the biggest timing window zerg has to crush us, in between start of third nexus and getting decent saturation on it. after that we have the economy to make big splashy units like colossus or carrier.
geminis third was so delayed that it definitely obscured how strong what he was doing would have been if hed had his third fully producing 3-4 minutes earlier than it was, he never got more than 2 carriers on the field at a time i believe. not making VRs and colossus and going phoenix/stalker/sentry/carrier/zealot off a better-timed 3rd i think would have been incredibly powerful with carriers providing the major dps, phoenix raising, zealot/ff tanking and stalkers hitting corrupters or raised units.
3 is the magic number of bases to have the money to start experimenting with new unit compositions and styles of play, and im glad to see it. zerg and terran are adapting to deathball, protoss isnt allowed to try to adapt to their adaptations?
yes you might roll me over with a baneling sling bust or bling hydras or roach all-in, but just as likely im not an idiot and position my cannons and gateways and ffs so u either pull back or lose all ur units and dont kill my natural either way. blizzard wants macro games otherwise the naturals and thirds wouldnt be so easy to get to and defend except again on awful maps like slag pits.
there are a lot of things you can try to do with this build and i am going to check them out; one thing i would change is the dts. you might as well get warp prisms or try to hide pylons and warp-in/drop zealots on expansions; more economical and just as if not more effective than dark templar.
if there is one deciding factor to me for PvZ, it is how well i use my force fields. sure you can talk about rolling a protoss over, but with the standard 3-gate expand, good cannon placement and un-noob forcefield use, you just arent going to be rolling over a protoss nat. which is why going muta harass or getting a quick 4th is as far as i know the standard zerg response to toss 3g sentry expand.
this build to me attempts to find another way to get protoss safely through that sometimes sticky transition from t1 to 2.5 that they need to go kill some bugs effectively and with a unit for your major dps that isnt colossus yay!
Thanks :D
I try to hide pylons around the map, the reason DT's work so well is that my phoenix "harass" stops once i go down to 1-2 phoenix and then i just use the as really good scouts, so because of this zerg is not as likely to have pre-built spores at their 4th and 5th expansions which makes it easy pickings for DT's. Also DT's are amazing combat units for this build, overseers are so easy to kill with air units, and DT's do amazing damage in battle, and the last reason for getting a dark shrine is for archons which absolutely demolish a zerg corrupter force and alot of other zerg units.
On March 27 2011 13:58 DeepElemBlues wrote: if there is one deciding factor to me for PvZ, it is how well i use my force fields. sure you can talk about rolling a protoss over, but with the standard 3-gate expand, good cannon placement and un-noob forcefield use, you just arent going to be rolling over a protoss nat. which is why going muta harass or getting a quick 4th is as far as i know the standard zerg response to toss 3g sentry expand.
This is something that I really like about this build actually. I had that happen to me today where I opened up with the Sentry expand and my opponent opted to go for Muta harass. By the time Mutas ended up in my base, I had plenty of Phoenix to take care of them.
I personally like having about 8 Phoenix as they are in a large enough number that they can do some serious harassment. With four it's kind of like sending in one Hellion to harass vs sending in 4. Yes you can harass with one Hellion, but you can do a LOT of damage with 4. Same principle... And I find that Phoenix don't ever really become "useless" as they do a ton of scouting, keep the opponent on his toes and also when that engagement occurs, lifting up a bunch of the DPS is soooo good (namely Hydras).
When I wrecked a huge chunk of his economy with my Phoenix (I had over 10 since he went heavy Muta) he basically had to all in me and tried a baneling bust... Even though my Forcefields were absolutely atrocious, it still wasn't even close. Granted, we're both terrible players so our micro/macro was by no means superb... But I do feel that the strategy is sound as I feel very secure when I'm utilizing it.
Glad to hear you're enjoying the build, I tried to make it as safe as possible and I feel it is quite safe from most opposing strategies. The best part of phoenixes vs mutas is that if the mutas attempt to retreat the phoenixes act like air marauders, you can't run from them, so you end up just killing everything. I personally go for anywhere from 5-9 phoenix depending on their defense.
I try to hide pylons around the map, the reason DT's work so well is that my phoenix "harass" stops once i go down to 1-2 phoenix and then i just use the as really good scouts, so because of this zerg is not as likely to have pre-built spores at their 4th and 5th expansions which makes it easy pickings for DT's. Also DT's are amazing combat units for this build, overseers are so easy to kill with air units, and DT's do amazing damage in battle, and the last reason for getting a dark shrine is for archons which absolutely demolish a zerg corrupter force and alot of other zerg units.
You have a point there, I wasn't really being as clear as I wanted. I think getting DTs is still good for archons, mixed into general army, and good for preventing expos by patrolling and killing drones, but I think substituting Zealot drops/warp-ins to harass the already existing naturals would be more economical. Hey maybe go with a mix, with a little micro those DTs will do massive damage while Zealots do what they're good for ZvP, eat roach acid and zergling claws and die haha.
My only real suggestion for improvement was the Zealots on the expansion harass I guess is what I'm saying =D
This is something that I really like about this build actually. I had that happen to me today where I opened up with the Sentry expand and my opponent opted to go for Muta harass. By the time Mutas ended up in my base, I had plenty of Phoenix to take care of them.
personally i just put a cannon and 1-2 stalkers at min line and if zerg tries to muta harass, pylon coverage and phoenix = mutas better run like right NAOW lol.
personally i think a smart zerg should opt for pylon / tech sniping over more likely than not blindly a-moving into the mineral line after most likely going all the way around map to get in from behind, or if its the natural from above or below (whichever side the main isnt on), leaving more time to be scouted and defended
blizzard may have taken away our beloved dragoons, but they gave us them in spirit with the vastly improved photon cannons =)
as for the amount of phoenixs, i'd say 12-15 is what you need for your late-game army; with forcefield, thats enough to significantly lower the amount of roaches or hydras and allow your stalkers to pound on corrupters.
if you get off good forcefields and hydras are far back enough taht theyre having trouble hitting stalkers id raise roaches to keep more stalkers alive, and if not, raise the hydras and kill them for the same reason.
zerg has to win the numbers-firepower trade, phoenix and forcefield properly used have very powerful synergy. hell you could even get a mothership and if u got lucky maybe vortex top half his army, raise the ground part of lower half, kill everything, then do it again when vortex wears off. thatd be pretty sweet to see, and zerg would have a very limited time to react if you pulled it off right.
It is very safe... And what I've personally found is I actually try and gun for Overlords bigtime. If you can supply block the Zerg player, not only does it delay his ability to produce counters, but it's a huge mineral investment to get those Overlords back. With a flock of Phoenix it is quite easy to kill off at least 6 Overlords while you're running around in his base. Not only is that 48 supply he won't have access to, but thats 600 Minerals he has to reinvest in order to start building again. Sometimes you delay the third or fourth expo simply by them being stretched out by having to remake all those balloons.
EDIT: One of the things is that I'm a huge upgrade freak as well. I often will sacrifice a lot of early units to buff up my stuff as quickly as possible. I've personally opted to go for a fast Fleet Beacon in order to keep upgrading and not even make Carriers... Just because it helps make your Phoenix (and of course the impending Carriers) much much stronger. If you manage to get +3 Armor on your Carriers, Hydras can become a liability if the Zerg hasn't upgraded their range attack. I do get the Twilight Council for Zealot Charge, but I haven't really gone for the Dark Templar tech simply because the faster upgrades usually end up being much more potent (And Phoenix with +2 attack can actually start to engage Corrupters).
all races are highly dependent on not having to replace supply buildings. it totally destroys the balance of spending on army, workers, and tech, since 2 of the 3 also use the supply "resource." zerg are just way more vulnerable to losing them because they arent buildings =)
One of the things is that I'm a huge upgrade freak as well. I often will sacrifice a lot of early units to buff up my stuff as quickly as possible.
i am too, protoss gets a bigger boost going from lvl 0 to lvl 1 and then again from lvl 1 to lvl 2 than terran and zerg i think. but we get a smaller boost hitting lvl 3 than they do and it evens out.
I try to hide pylons around the map, the reason DT's work so well is that my phoenix "harass" stops once i go down to 1-2 phoenix and then i just use the as really good scouts, so because of this zerg is not as likely to have pre-built spores at their 4th and 5th expansions which makes it easy pickings for DT's. Also DT's are amazing combat units for this build, overseers are so easy to kill with air units, and DT's do amazing damage in battle, and the last reason for getting a dark shrine is for archons which absolutely demolish a zerg corrupter force and alot of other zerg units.
You have a point there, I wasn't really being as clear as I wanted. I think getting DTs is still good for archons, mixed into general army, and good for preventing expos by patrolling and killing drones, but I think substituting Zealot drops/warp-ins to harass the already existing naturals would be more economical. Hey maybe go with a mix, with a little micro those DTs will do massive damage while Zealots do what they're good for ZvP, eat roach acid and zergling claws and die haha.
My only real suggestion for improvement was the Zealots on the expansion harass I guess is what I'm saying =D
The way I look at is 1 DT is 125/125 and it can kill infinite drones until detection arrives, zealots can kill quite a few drones, but zerg can respond and save those drones a lot faster since no detection is required. However mixing it up by sending a DT in 1st and doing a lot of damage, and then sending in hit squads of like 5 zealots could have awesome results :D
On March 27 2011 14:40 DeepElemBlues wrote: all races are highly dependent on not having to replace supply buildings. it totally destroys the balance of spending on army, workers, and tech, since 2 of the 3 also use the supply "resource." zerg are just way more vulnerable to losing them because they arent buildings =)
One of the things is that I'm a huge upgrade freak as well. I often will sacrifice a lot of early units to buff up my stuff as quickly as possible.
i am too, protoss gets a bigger boost going from lvl 0 to lvl 1 and then again from lvl 1 to lvl 2 than terran and zerg i think. but we get a smaller boost hitting lvl 3 than they do and it evens out.
My forge and cyber core are always upgrading and being chronoboosted throughout the game, I almost always end up with 3/1/1 on air and ground when I win or even higher.
I wasn't implying that you weren't upgrading lol, but I feel that you get a much stronger head start on those upgrades by going for a faster Fleet Beacon... Then again, I'm not too afraid to start up a Mothership on two bases (though I do agree, Carriers do require the three bases to actually begin real production).
I think the route to go when being protective against hydras is to get just a few stalkers/phoenix, lift the hydras and shoot it with both. But it is a big mineral sink to get stalkers with this build.
On March 28 2011 00:44 johanngrunt wrote: How does the build deal with infestors?
Is the constant harassment enough to keep the zerg off infestors?
I think that hydra infestor would be pretty good against this.
Infesters do good damage, but if you're going infester hydra you won't have the gas to make corrupters, and carriers own hydras.
On March 28 2011 01:03 TheWahbinator wrote: I think the route to go when being protective against hydras is to get just a few stalkers/phoenix, lift the hydras and shoot it with both. But it is a big mineral sink to get stalkers with this build.
This build always has extra minerals, however gas is the resource that's sparse
Phoenix/DT is a very powerful, and standard, late game composition against zerg to defend while building up a power ball to crush the zerg. It has high multitasking/APM requirements, but the gist is that you snipe overseer's very quickly and then send the DT's in, and finish off fliers with the phoenix after the DTs take out the ground troops. It doesn't work on offense very well, but it's a very good delaying tactic.
On March 28 2011 02:51 Whitewing wrote: Phoenix/DT is a very powerful, and standard, late game composition against zerg to defend while building up a power ball to crush the zerg. It has high multitasking/APM requirements, but the gist is that you snipe overseer's very quickly and then send the DT's in, and finish off fliers with the phoenix after the DTs take out the ground troops. It doesn't work on offense very well, but it's a very good delaying tactic.
Basically SC2 version of Corsair/DT except more defensive probably.
Link to game please? Haven't seen it and it would be interesting to glean some information from (what I assume to be) a pro player executing his version of the build.
Thanks for the link. =) Just finished watching the game and yeah... I entirely agree that a more Zealot heavy composition would have made this work out a lot differently.
Something that did intrigue me a little bit was his Stargate timings. He didn't throw them up one after another (though admittedly, that super fast Nexus meant he needed to spend more in the immediate timeframe on his Gateway infrastructure).
It's something that would perhaps need to be tweaked and played with a little bit... But I may experiment a little bit with going single gateway and a fast Twilight Council. Zealot Legs is something that you will want anyway, as well as the ability to get those DTs when the time arises. In the meantime you can still start chronoboosting that void ray and the following phoenix, and add on the second stargate just a tad later.
The reason i want to play with this a bit is because once I start pumping out of my Stargates, I feel like everything else gets put on hold and it's one of those "Oh shit I really could use that now instead of later" situations. It could be my poor execution for one (I'm still practicing not only the build, but my mechanics as well)... But my money is USUALLY low unless I'm harassing with Phoenix and I often feel that it's a little to tight at certain spots.
The thing is this build techs in a completely different way than the typical Colossus ball... And it throws off certain things... But I do feel they can be worked on, and I do feel that this is not an inherently flawed strategy. Take that San game... Even with a boatload of Corrupters it was very very difficult for him to crack that Carrier fleet. As was pointed out before, those lings would have been shredded by those Zealots... Which would of freed up a LOT of gas to make a lot of Void Rays (if he added a third Stargate this would have been easily doable).
I think that game might be a little taste of what is to come. Don't get me wrong, Colossus will often be seen wrecking Zerg armies, but I really do hope that the Carrier gets to see some more action, as it truly is a crazy unit (did you see how quickly that expo was sniped? xD ).
I've been doing the basics of this build and strategy. Vs a zerg that hasn't seen it before I feel you can do pretty well against them. I think that the build needs to be executed really well and you need good control, and the maps need to favor fast expanding for this to be decently viable at the top level of play.
I disagree that the map needs to be viable for a "fast" expand. I don't think there isn't a map where you can't go for 3-gate Sentry expand unless I'm completely and utterly forgetting something. From my playing thus far, I haven't had any issues with the opening into expand phase... It's after you start getting your Stargate tech up where it starts to get a little more tricky.
On March 29 2011 14:28 CrAzEdMiKe wrote: I disagree that the map needs to be viable for a "fast" expand. I don't think there isn't a map where you can't go for 3-gate Sentry expand unless I'm completely and utterly forgetting something. From my playing thus far, I haven't had any issues with the opening into expand phase... It's after you start getting your Stargate tech up where it starts to get a little more tricky.
Its hard to hold off 2base roach+sling push on: 1. Metalopolis 2. Xel'Naga Caverns but its fairly questionably 3. Slag Pits.
On March 29 2011 14:28 CrAzEdMiKe wrote: I disagree that the map needs to be viable for a "fast" expand. I don't think there isn't a map where you can't go for 3-gate Sentry expand unless I'm completely and utterly forgetting something. From my playing thus far, I haven't had any issues with the opening into expand phase... It's after you start getting your Stargate tech up where it starts to get a little more tricky.
Its hard to hold off 2base roach+sling push on: 1. Metalopolis 2. Xel'Naga Caverns but its fairly questionably 3. Slag Pits.
I have slag pits vetoed since it's probably the worst map blizzard has made for SC2, and no competitive entity would ever feature it in it's map pool.
Metal can hold a roach/sling push with 3 canons, good building placement and good ff's. 1-2 voidrays kill roaches quite fast and the buildings, canons, ff's delay the roaches while the gateway army pokes at them and the lings. Xel'naga is a bit harder but I feel like it's still manageable if you scout it properly which shouldn't be a problem due to hallucinated phoenixes and real phoenixes.
I don't have much experience with Slag Pits as of yet, but you still see 3 gate expands into both Metalopolis and Xel'Naga Caverns all the time... Many many Colossus builds open up with the 3 gate expand in the exact same method as this build. The difficulty is the same in all respects at that point. As said, it's after you start throwing down the Stargate where the gameplay changes from that of a more traditional Colossus based build.
I'm not saying you're super safe and 100% inpenetrable at any point in time, because lets face it, this is SC2... You're never really "perfectly safe" until the very very end of the game (or you're dead... one of the two xD ). However, 3-gate expand is becoming extremely standard vs. Zerg players and the beauty of it is that it can be used pretty much anywhere (with of course varying degrees of "security" ).
But we are arguing semantics and not actually focusing on the build.
EDIT: Post replying to LesPhoques... Heirarch beat me to the punch by a minute lol
I've been doing a bit of experimenting, and something that I'm going to throw up as food for thought (I'm not quite sure if I really prefer it or not) is to actually prioritize air armor over air attack with this build.
Now I know that Carriers get stupid crazy DPS when they have high attack upgrades. However, what I came to realize is that the Carriers tend to mow through most of the Zerg units pretty quickly anyway... And since they aren't doing splash and are focusing one unit at a time, I've been having a much easier time keeping my air army alive by trying to pump the air armor up as quickly as I can after I get +1 attack (because +1 attack is so much better earlier on for the Phoenix harass and for Void Rays).
Since Carriers take so long to build and really are the power unit of the build, I think that having a larger emphasis on armor is actually more useful than attack. You have to pay a bit of attention as to how the Zerg is upgrading... But having the fleet in the sky stay alive has been working out very well for me. Again it's food for thought, but it has really been helping my fleet stay alive and it really helps make the Phoenix much more robust (since they really do feel like paper planes sometimes).
Again, would like to hear other opinions/experiences if possible. It could be a "stylistic" choice... But again, would like to hear some other opinions/views on the matter.
@ crazedmike - I would suggest upgrading shields instead of air armor, and stick with air weapons. Often in battles my carriers lose most of their shields but rarely to they take too much hull damage or I am going to lose. shield upgrades also help your zealots (and I think cannons too right?) so it serves as a much more useful upgrade, and you can still get air weapons at the same time because they upgrade from different buildings.
It is true that Shields will help all your units vs just the air, however shields regenerate pretty quickly and hit point damage is permanent, thus I would rather keep the HP of my carriers higher than the shields (especially since they have more HP than shields to draw on). That and the fact that Carriers come with a natural 2 armor to begin with can make it very difficult for Zerg to deal with. I had a foolish Zerg opponent that tried to stay on Mutalisk (vs. Phoenix and Carriers? xD) and his hits on the Carriers did next to nothing.
That and shield upgrades cost more than the armor upgrades... Namely in gas. In such a gas intensive build, it gets super duper expensive to get those shields up to +3 (900 gas vs. 675 if I'm not mistaken).
I guess its a matter of preference, but here is my reasoning to prefer shields over armor.
The fact that shields regenerate quickly and hull damage is permanent is even more reason to prefer shield upgrades because there is less of a chance of taking hull damage if your shields are stronger. Not only that but because shields regenerate you can get more effective health out of shields than hull, meaning shields take more damage by the time the carrier dies, meaning shield upgrades will prevent more damage than hull upgrades. Shield upgrades also help out all the zealots and cannons you will be making as well so Its worth the extra cost, not to mention that unless you made 2 cyber cores, your sacrificing weapon upgrade time for armor.
I usually do make two Cyber Cores... I'm an upgrade wh... freak. xD
But that being said, I do try and squeeze in upgrades only when I'm comfortable with how many units I have. So usually I end up focusing on one and adding the other in when I feel comfortable (i.e. I will make a point to getting an upgrade, for instance +1 attack once I start getting Phoenix because I know it makes them more effective at that stage in the game) and go for the other one when I have a little bit of extra money.
So basically, I've been experimenting with upgrading the armor in a more dedicated fashion vs. the attack.
In regards to taking less damage to hull via shields I'm going to calculate this out on the spot (I don't know what the answer is as I'm writing this). So a carrier has 150 shields and 350 life + 2 base armor. Lets say we are being attacked by a single unupgraded hydra (for simplicities sake, we'll assume you are ahead in upgrades)and you have 0 interceptors so the carrier is not fighting back. The Hydra does 12 damage a shot to your Carrier. Now, without upgrades it will take 13 shots to go through the carriers shields and doing 4 damage to the hull (6 damage -2 base armor of the carrier. Then it will take 35 shots to bring the carrier to death. Now just to make it so that the carrier does not die (1 shot remaining in an upgraded scenario) we will have the Hydralisk make 47 shots on the carrier.
If the Carrier has +3 shields, it will take the Hydralisk a total of 17 shots to work it's way through the shields doing an additional 1 damage to the hull, and then our 34 shots to bring the carrier to near death for a total of 51 shots (obviously that is much better than 47 shots).
Same scenario, but this time we go with armor. So 13 shots to take out the shields and now it takes (12 - 5 damage = 7 per shot) 49 shots to bring the Carrier to near death for a total of 62 shots.
That's an additional 10 shots over going for shield upgrades. Now granted, shield upgrades WILL as you said help absolutely every unit and structure you possess, and that is something to take into consideration... And obviously the opponent SHOULD be getting upgrades of his own to make his units more effective against yours, and how he upgrades should also influence how you upgrade... Since if you are hard to kill but the Zerg units are equally hard to kill for you, they WILL outnumber you and will be getting more shots off... So if they're going heavy armor I might actually go for more attack upgrades depending on the situation (namely if I'm seeing a LOT of Corrupters).
I still haven't fully decided on which I prefer, as the whole idea of the army composition is to use the Zealots to hold the Zerg units back from attacking the fleet. And by me thinking this out it actually makes me realize that maybe the correct pattern is for me to drop the second Cyber core and not worry about armor altogether and focus more on Shields and air attack instead of trying to work in all three. You are also correct in that if you're in a situation where Carriers are only taking light to medium fire, shield upgrades are probably more beneficial... In fact now that I'm thinking about it more, if they've got a situation where the Carriers are just out on their own, you're likely to be in trouble anyway... So I don't know, I'm going to have to think about it some more.
Like I mentioned previously, I'm a little concerned about the gas requirement for shield upgrades... But admittedly, you can get them rolling a little more easily (at least in my version of the build where after I expand I lay down a single stargate and templar archives up at roughly the same time).
I'm definitely going to be doing some experimenting, as I feel that the upgrades are super crucial in this particular build as our units are not "direct counters", more of an all purpose generally good unit. Don't get me wrong, Colossi are great all around units, but they do have some glaring vulnerabilities (no air attack, derrrrrr) wheras carriers are not AS easily countered. Zerg can't kite Carriers like Terrans can with vikings, and corrupters while good are not going to absolutely rape Carriers. So I feel that the choice of what upgrades you go for in this build are absolutely crucial.
Off to the ladder to try and test some of this out. =D
Sorry for the double post but I just wanted to report my experience doing a bit of testing with a shield upgrade prioritization.
One of the things I found was that my 3rd base felt a lot more secure from an early ling assault while setting up. Those extra shields come in super handy, and making the Nexus MUCH more robust as well as helping out the cannons really helped me secure my third base a lot more easily.
Doing this I went forge after nexus started, then when nexus finished and I had 4 gas running (was still producing units and cannons while setting up) I put down the stargate and twilight council and while they were morphing began some of the upgrades (+1 air attack and +1 shields). When the council finished, I started Zealot legs right away and when I had the money to afford it (since once the first stargate finished, I started single void ray + phoenix production) threw down the second stargate.
The second stargate so early on is actually something I'm starting to disagree with. I wasn't able to get my Fleet beacon as quickly as I wanted, because I'm very comfortable getting a Mothership on two base. Having an earlier Mothership would also make it a little easier setting up the third, as well as it makes you impossibly hard to be pushed by the Zerg since they need a crap ton of Overseers to even be able to engage your army... Buying you valuable time to get to your Carriers.
So next time I think my rough post expand build order is going to be something like this:
1 ----> Stargate + Council 2 ----> Begin +1 Air Attack & +1 Shields 3 ----> Begin VoidRay/Phoenix Production + Zealot Legs 4 ----> Build Fleet Beacon + Dark Shrine* (Depends on what I see really... I don't always opt for the Shrine as it really cuts into your Gateway production with the long cooldown, meaning you need more gateways to really help support it) 5 ----> Start Mothership + Add another Stargate + Continue Upgrades 6 ----> Take 3rd
In between this I try and do a bit of poking and prodding, apply a little but not too much pressure as the idea is to stay fairly defensive for quite a while. Once the third base is up Carrier production can begin. It is nice not having to produce excess buildings and it made the build feel a little more lean. I'll post some more later on tomorrow.
On April 01 2011 15:26 CrAzEdMiKe wrote: Sorry for the double post but I just wanted to report my experience doing a bit of testing with a shield upgrade prioritization.
One of the things I found was that my 3rd base felt a lot more secure from an early ling assault while setting up. Those extra shields come in super handy, and making the Nexus MUCH more robust as well as helping out the cannons really helped me secure my third base a lot more easily.
Doing this I went forge after nexus started, then when nexus finished and I had 4 gas running (was still producing units and cannons while setting up) I put down the stargate and twilight council and while they were morphing began some of the upgrades (+1 air attack and +1 shields). When the council finished, I started Zealot legs right away and when I had the money to afford it (since once the first stargate finished, I started single void ray + phoenix production) threw down the second stargate.
The second stargate so early on is actually something I'm starting to disagree with. I wasn't able to get my Fleet beacon as quickly as I wanted, because I'm very comfortable getting a Mothership on two base. Having an earlier Mothership would also make it a little easier setting up the third, as well as it makes you impossibly hard to be pushed by the Zerg since they need a crap ton of Overseers to even be able to engage your army... Buying you valuable time to get to your Carriers.
So next time I think my rough post expand build order is going to be something like this:
1 ----> Stargate + Council 2 ----> Begin +1 Air Attack & +1 Shields 3 ----> Begin VoidRay/Phoenix Production + Zealot Legs 4 ----> Build Fleet Beacon + Dark Shrine* (Depends on what I see really... I don't always opt for the Shrine as it really cuts into your Gateway production with the long cooldown, meaning you need more gateways to really help support it) 5 ----> Start Mothership + Add another Stargate + Continue Upgrades 6 ----> Take 3rd
In between this I try and do a bit of poking and prodding, apply a little but not too much pressure as the idea is to stay fairly defensive for quite a while. Once the third base is up Carrier production can begin. It is nice not having to produce excess buildings and it made the build feel a little more lean. I'll post some more later on tomorrow.
You will die from a lot of things if you try to do all that, you'll end up doing too much and not having enough solidity in your army and production.
One thing I've been working on is when I put my 4th base up I usually go up to 8 gateways and 4 stargates. When I max out I end up putting 4 more stargates up. Then when I start losing army I make only zealots out of my gateways and I start making pure air units. a 100% pure army composition of voidray/carrier/mothership on super high upgrades cannot be stopped by zerg, and on 4-5 base this is easily supportable.
Definitely worth the shot. Although a good Z player would shoot your air force out the sky with a gazillion corruptors once spire tech kicks in (around 1 min after your mommaship pops if it were rushed out). Also zealots are weak to roaches (a staple Z force due to its high hp to cost ratio). I think it's too much building 4 gates (making zealots) THEN 2 stargates. I'm not sure how the money distribution works out, but maybe rushing for air is better especially against Z. I could see 1 stargate making void, phoenix x 4 taking on zerg. I think I remember white-Ra mentioning this type of build back in the beta. All Z have early on is queens; the air control would be that much more effective early on. For base control... i would double wall with cannons and sentries after an FE.
What would be very cool would be to warp in zealots as you harrass with phoenix and voids. I wonder if this build could translate over to PvP or PvT with some adjustments.
On April 02 2011 01:27 IzieBoy wrote: Definitely worth the shot. Although a good Z player would shoot your air force out the sky with a gazillion corruptors once spire tech kicks in (around 1 min after your mommaship pops if it were rushed out). Also zealots are weak to roaches (a staple Z force due to its high hp to cost ratio). I think it's too much building 4 gates (making zealots) THEN 2 stargates. I'm not sure how the money distribution works out, but maybe rushing for air is better especially against Z. I could see 1 stargate making void, phoenix x 4 taking on zerg. I think I remember white-Ra mentioning this type of build back in the beta. All Z have early on is queens; the air control would be that much more effective early on. For base control... i would double wall with cannons and sentries after an FE.
What would be very cool would be to warp in zealots as you harrass with phoenix and voids. I wonder if this build could translate over to PvP or PvT with some adjustments.
It will never see the light of day in PvP as it dies 100% to 4 gate, and in PvT marines and vikings are way better vs air than corrupters and hydras are. Corrupters get absolutely decimated by voidrays. You can make your roaches all you want to kill my zealots, the zealots are jus there to stall while my air owns everything. It's been tested numerous times, mass corrupter cannot beat carrier/voidray
On April 02 2011 01:12 Hierarch wrote: You will die from a lot of things if you try to do all that, you'll end up doing too much and not having enough solidity in your army and production.
One thing I've been working on is when I put my 4th base up I usually go up to 8 gateways and 4 stargates. When I max out I end up putting 4 more stargates up. Then when I start losing army I make only zealots out of my gateways and I start making pure air units. a 100% pure army composition of voidray/carrier/mothership on super high upgrades cannot be stopped by zerg, and on 4-5 base this is easily supportable.
I don't feel like I'm doing too too much as I try my absolute best to always be producing units out of my structures (duh) AND in most of my games I don't opt to go for the Dark Shrine. Dark Templar are a HUUUUGE investment, and even though they provide excellent harass and the ability to morph into archons (which btw now that I think about it benefit hugely from shield upgrades as well xD) I feel like Dark Templar are not all THAT effective when you're still on two bases.
I do get a delayed Stargate which slows my Void/Phoenix production substantially, but its a sacrifice to make the rest of my army as a whole stronger. Zealot Legs are such a huge huge upgrade for Protoss in any matchup, as it basically shuts down ANY kiting shenanigans and makes Zealots sooooooooo much more potent against ranged attackers (in this matchup those would be namely Roaches and Hydras).
Zealots are obviously not a counter to either of these combinations, but that being said, a single Zealot if he's wailing on a roach will actually still fare pretty well... But once you start revealing your air play, Zerg players tend to focus on more gas heavy solutions (Hydras, Corrupters, Infestors) to deal with the fleet in the sky, which reduces the Roach count significantly. That leaves it to Zealots vs usually Hydras on the ground, and Zealots in sufficient numbers can wreak some serious havoc on Hydras if there's nothing to block them.
It's been my experience that the build works similarly to the Colossus ball in that the units kind of have to stick together a little bit. The heavy Zealot composition doesn't really work against the Zerg on it's own, and the air fleet can get melted away rather quickly without ground support... Making me feel like the two need to build smoothly together. Upgrades are also a very personal style of mine, as a lot of my builds focus around getting key upgrades for certain units vs specific races (such as against Terran, I sometimes will go for a VERY early +1 armor upgrade and move out with a heavy Sentry army).
The thing is is that upgrades lose their effectiveness as your opponents begin to match you upgrade for upgrade. As Protoss, we have a distinct advantage in that we can Chronoboost our upgrades to get them much much more quickly than a Terran or a Zerg could which means in theory up until the late late game, we should pretty much be ahead in upgrades. Like I mentioned before, upgrades are something that are really important to me as part of my playstyle and most of my builds focus around heavy upgrading. There was a game I played against a Terran where he went for a 1 Racks FE and bunkered up hard... I managed to do some decent damage with a not all in 4 gate attack (I planted an expo during the attack and kept building probes)... But after the attack was over the Terran did what a lot of Terrans will do which is expand all over the map.
Granted, he didn't upgrade at ALL which allowed me to win, because his army was about 60 food higher than mine (though admittedly, a lot of the food was SCVs) and his production was through the roof... But my units were so hard to individually kill and were killing his units so quickly that eventually when I reached his production sites it didn't matter how quickly he could pump them.
Read this if you want to find out a scary fact about if you upgrade hard. + Show Spoiler +
Consider my Hydralisk example from not my last post but the post before, and this time we will take it from a Stalker vs Marauder standpoint. A Stalker will normally do 13 damage to a Marauder (taking into effect the base 1 armor) and the Marauder will do 19 to the stalker after his shields are depleted (again, factoring in the armor).
In a 1v1 scenario without any upgrades or stim (I'll get to that in a bit) it will take the Marauder 9 shots to take down the stalker and the stalker takes 10 shots to kill the Marauder. So already in a basic basic Marauder vs Stalker with no upgrades at all (and they shoot at almost the same speed) the marauder will kill the Stalker in 13.5 seconds vs the Stalker's 14.4 seconds.
Now, lets say that the Marauder now has stim but no other upgrades and the stalker has +3 Weapons and +3 armor & shields. The stalker is now doing 16 damage to the Marauder and the marauder is doing 16 to the Stalkers hp and 17 to the shields. Now stimming basically halves the time it takes for the Marauder to do the killing damage so it obviously makes sense that the Marauder would stim (duhhhhhhh). Marauders lost 20hp when they stim, so they drop down to 105hp which means it takes the stalker 7 shots to kill a Marauder, whereas the Marauder now takes 10 shots to kill a stalker. It will take the Marauder 7.5 seconds to kill a Stalker and the stalker 10.08 seconds to kill the Marauder. Now you might be thinking "Well the Stalker still loses." Consider if the Marauder just had stim and no upgrades vs an unupgraded stalker. The Stalker would now only needs 9 shots to kill the marauder at weapon speed of 1.44 and the Marauder still needs to do his whole 9 shots but at double speed. The Stalker would in theory take down the Marauder in 12.96 seconds and the Marauder would take down the Stalker in 6.75 seconds.
Consider the gap between the two examples. In a just stim scenario with no other upgrades in the picture, the difference between the Stalker losing to the Marauder is 6.21 seconds. When the stalker is fully upgraded, there is a 2.58 second difference. That is a LOT of additional damage being dealt to that Marauder, a unit that COUNTERS the Stalker. Also if you were super duper fancy, you could in theory blink away from the Marauder and let his stim deplete and your shields recharge a little bit and a Stalker could actually beat the Marauder in a 1v1 scenario.
The point of that breakdown is to truly illustrate the power of upgrades. With upgrades, you can actually give the "counter unit" a run for it's money if you are upgraded and it is not. In the Stalker vs. Marauder example, we brought down the difference in "death time" from 6.21 seconds to 2.58 seconds which is an extra 2 shots worth of damage. You multiply that across your whole army and the results are incredible. Now obviously being 3 upgrades ahead of your opponent is super super drastic... But that example is a one unit vs one unit situation. The bigger the battles become, the more important upgrades start to matter.
Like I said, I'm an upgrade freak and I have won many games where I would have lost were it not for the fact that I love upgrading my shit. Although I might not be producing my initial air force as quickly, but by the time they tend to move out I usually have a second stargate up and running already. Like I said, that was just more of a "general guide" to how I proceed in my build order. We get pretty much the same stuff, just in a slightly different order and a few changes (I opt for earlier upgrades than the early DT harass).
It's a different style and admittedly it can be a little more passive at certain points than the DTs... But keep in mind I go for a relatively fast mothership (I always try and get my infrastructure/key components started before I make her) which allows me to move out with a handful of voidrays and focus down an outlying Hatchery and recall when the voids might get into trouble. Mass recall is the ultimate next to 0 risk trump card to have in the arsenal, and I've been an advocate of her since even before I started using this build.
Friday at MLG Kiwi vs Idra on shattered temple. Kiwikaki gets a voidray + 4 phoenix and completely takes out 5-6 queens that idra has for defense. He does this off one stargate. I think a double stargate off 2 base (one being not even fully saturated) is too much, you are sacrificing too much on the ground.
Perhaps 4 gate 1 robo 1 stargate with the robo coming later can be more beneficial. Burrow roach timings are pretty hard to hold, yeah you can tell me FF FF! and cannons but it doesn't always work. This being a reactionary build, I think a robo is kind of a necessity. if he's going mass roach, you are going to want to get a few immortals. just IMHO. Once you're getting your third, throw down more stargates. I just think 1 stargate is enough if you're constantly chronoboosting it. Of course if you see muta/ling, get another one lol.
You said this is highly untested at high level of play. Go download some of White-Ra's special tactics replays from his site. He was using 3 gate expand into carriers a lot lately
I played against someone who made this (3k4 master on eu). This make for such boring games. It was on shattered temple, he take a fast third and turtled up, since I was so sure he was going for a basic colossi build i made ling baneling infestor in mass expand. Then I saw the carrier and his air army, I made a shitload of baneling and tried to kill his base, I took down two of his 3 nexuss). Then he came out, I tried to mass corruptors but they suck against void ray, I tried to go for hydra but forget the range. Then I lost.
If I had scouted earlier, I would have just mass corruptors/mutas or just hydras, you are so passiv for a long long time that it is very easy to adapt in my opinion.
On April 03 2011 01:19 mamuto wrote: Friday at MLG Kiwi vs Idra on shattered temple. Kiwikaki gets a voidray + 4 phoenix and completely takes out 5-6 queens that idra has for defense. He does this off one stargate. I think a double stargate off 2 base (one being not even fully saturated) is too much, you are sacrificing too much on the ground.
Perhaps 4 gate 1 robo 1 stargate with the robo coming later can be more beneficial. Burrow roach timings are pretty hard to hold, yeah you can tell me FF FF! and cannons but it doesn't always work. This being a reactionary build, I think a robo is kind of a necessity. if he's going mass roach, you are going to want to get a few immortals. just IMHO. Once you're getting your third, throw down more stargates. I just think 1 stargate is enough if you're constantly chronoboosting it. Of course if you see muta/ling, get another one lol.
This basically sums up why I stopped going double stargate, the robo comes too late and holding super aggressive roach timings becomes non cost effective and you fall too far behind.
This build is ridiculously good against an unprepared Zerg. I played against this build yesterday and I barely won with ling/bling, ultra in a base race against 10-12 carriers. Corruptors suck against carriers when they are massed. It is really weak against hydra/ling drops though, but that is also dependet on map and positions.
On April 23 2011 20:48 Tef wrote: This build is ridiculously good against an unprepared Zerg. I played against this build yesterday and I barely won with ling/bling, ultra in a base race against 10-12 carriers. Corruptors suck against carriers when they are massed. It is really weak against hydra/ling drops though, but that is also dependet on map and positions.
heh... I won against it once as well by just racing zerglings to different bases and eliminated him. Won twice in that fashion actually.
If you want to engage this army I think the right composition is corruptor+roach+infestors.
I went ling/infestor today and it didn't go too well as they kill infestors too fast. to get the full 6 fungals to kill. You want some form of tank/continuous-dmg like corruptors. So definitely... infestors are awesome thou
i think collosi, especially after patch 1.4 are going to get out of fashion. Infestor ling deals extremely well with everything on the ground and with a carrier VR phoenix ball, you can just lift them up and tank damage with zealots. Which are more or less throw away units.
You can add a tip to the OP: Use vortex to buy time for interceptors production. WhiteRa did it with like 15 carriers and mothership on his stream recently.
Ok, i started messing with this build as a top player who decided i wanted to put some different strategies to work outside of the usual deathballs/playstyles.
A few things you need to do with this builds: 1. Fast third with cannons, the gas is needed in case they figure out how to counter this build and transition into a heavy immortal/archon followup until you start thinning the corruptor numbers, then you can produce carriers again. 2. *Abandon this build* If you see corruptors to counter your early phoenix play<--MANDATORY If they are producing corruptors to counter ur phoenix, you wont be able to counter the amount they will have by the time you push unless they dont scout that ur continuing to go air (they will assume colossi and continue to make corruptors usually. 3. Do enough econ/hatch damage with ur initial SG units (snipe/deny a third) or you will be in a hairy mess unless you secure a quick third and start macroing to 200/200.
I did this 3 times in a row on ladder, my observations: Its a pretty good build when they dont scout it until you have carriers in production, i usually start carriers after 2 VR, 2-3 phoenix and secure a third with cannon when i start that production of first 2 carriers. Faced a problem with people who are good with upgrades, and just do a straight roach/corruptor (with infestor's thrown in later) on 3-4 and arent afraid to expand. Hydras are NOT the answer to this build, adding in lategame charge/DT's (Archons) and immortals/colossi lategame (assuming u are able to thin out the corruptor numbers) is needed past 3 bases. **O NOT BE AFRAID TO EXPAND***, You will need the gas, keep expanding, keep teching every which way and upgrade both Air Armor* and Ground attack, this was discussed until critical mass of carriers, armor helps your interceptors stay alive longer and inevitably more dps, ground attack obviously helps widdle ling/hydra/roach numbers with your stalker/archon/DT's/immortals/ect.
Good guide, will start refining it to fit the playstyle i like. If anyone wants the replays from the 3 games, 2 wins 1 loss let me know, they were all 25+ minute games.
(Credentials: I play top 200 all day, including some top 10 players on ladder if im fortunate enough) GLGL
If I see mutas being made I can outproduce zerg and keep air dominance with 2 chronoboosted stargate phoenix, maybe not worth dismissing entirely, but to be fair like 90% of zergs won't bother with the investment into mutas if they see 4-5 phoenix already. Thanks for the input though, but do you think a zerg could fight for air dominance against phoenix? Even if they did get equal numbers how would zerg hold off a push of zealot/sentry/stalker/phoenix?
If you really attempt to outproduce zerg with Phoenixes for air superiority and he transitions you're going to be left with a lot of worthless phoenix. This is what anypro tried vs July. July made spire, immediately made corruptors and smashed him. Besides when you bring carriers on the field it would be a lot more damaging if you weren't sending a memo to the zerg to get AA for 25 minutes before they reach the field. The whole build relies on air production through out. If you are playing a half decent zerg he is definitely NOT going to neglect Air upgrades if his chosen defense is air. I also don't understand how you can say corruptors don't fend well against carriers. They start out doing 20 out of the gate. Carrier is Massive and Armored, which means Corruptor is DEFINITELY viable and infestors would just spank this. I won't go as far as to declare this completely impractical, but their are many holes in this.
You have to make those early VRs. I used to try rushing carriers before and never had much success, but it seems that the compositions is WAYYYY more robust once you have those 6-7 VRs. 6Vrs + 2 Carriers is WAYYYYY stronger than 4-5 Carriers. I'm working on a timing with +2 Air Weapons and 2 Carriers, but it seems that its much easier to just take a third (Hydras off creep vs air + FFs is a slaughter, and corruptors can't exactly hit air)
A few thoughts on why this build scares me to death as a zerg player.
-Use phoenixes to graviton beam infestors, even if you don't kill them, you prevent them from using fungal or neural parasite. Your units will most likely auto target and kill them anyway if they can't move, and sacrificing a phoenix for an infestor that hasn't spent its energy is a great trade. -Getting up a dangerous number of carriers forces us to make mass corruptors and then go broodlords. But with multiple stargates as your main production facilities, you can slam out pure voidray for a while and just annihilate corruptors and broodlords. -Make a mothership and LEAVE IT AT HOME! If you get into a bad engagement, just recall, and never lose your expensive investment in carriers.
I'm really glad this topic got revived. I hope more protoss start using it and we move away from the colossus deathball metagame currently popular.
On April 24 2011 05:22 inamorato wrote: If you really attempt to outproduce zerg with Phoenixes for air superiority and he transitions you're going to be left with a lot of worthless phoenix. This is what anypro tried vs July. July made spire, immediately made corruptors and smashed him.
Yes, Corruptors are better than phoenix for air control, but then a handful of stalkers/voidrays will shut that down very very quickly. The thing is that phoenix > muta and voidray > corruptor.
If you make phoenix to counter a spire that then only produces corruptors, its not hard to just avoid the corruptor cloud and fly around the map hitting different expansions, scouting, picking off random ovies and scouts. They don't instantly become useless. You also have the choice to bring them with the main army for graviton beaming certain units.
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imJealous, the mothership at home (or even better, at the third) is an idea i've been thinking of for a while, its just really hard to make myself spend the 400/400 on it in the middle of a game. And it takes almost 3 ingame minutes to build :/ but the defensive recall is theoretically very powerful: You go for zerg's fourth and he decides to attack your main/natural/third? recall, defend, and now you're ahead (provided you don't die) Definitely need to start doing this :D
infestors now negate all air, i just get rolled by fungle, they spam a few infestors and your entire air army gets caught ones you loose, i don't an air based strat viable against any z, sorry :\
On April 24 2011 06:31 imJealous wrote: A few thoughts on why this build scares me to death as a zerg player.
-Use phoenixes to graviton beam infestors, even if you don't kill them, you prevent them from using fungal or neural parasite. Your units will most likely auto target and kill them anyway if they can't move, and sacrificing a phoenix for an infestor that hasn't spent its energy is a great trade. -Getting up a dangerous number of carriers forces us to make mass corruptors and then go broodlords. But with multiple stargates as your main production facilities, you can slam out pure voidray for a while and just annihilate corruptors and broodlords. -Make a mothership and LEAVE IT AT HOME! If you get into a bad engagement, just recall, and never lose your expensive investment in carriers.
you probably don't ever want to use neural parasite on carriers if there are phoenix floating around. even if you get it off, a graviton beam will completely negate the 150 energy spell. fungals are more energy efficient.
If I see mutas being made I can outproduce zerg and keep air dominance with 2 chronoboosted stargate phoenix, maybe not worth dismissing entirely, but to be fair like 90% of zergs won't bother with the investment into mutas if they see 4-5 phoenix already. Thanks for the input though, but do you think a zerg could fight for air dominance against phoenix? Even if they did get equal numbers how would zerg hold off a push of zealot/sentry/stalker/phoenix?
If you really attempt to outproduce zerg with Phoenixes for air superiority and he transitions you're going to be left with a lot of worthless phoenix. This is what anypro tried vs July. July made spire, immediately made corruptors and smashed him. Besides when you bring carriers on the field it would be a lot more damaging if you weren't sending a memo to the zerg to get AA for 25 minutes before they reach the field. The whole build relies on air production through out. If you are playing a half decent zerg he is definitely NOT going to neglect Air upgrades if his chosen defense is air. I also don't understand how you can say corruptors don't fend well against carriers. They start out doing 20 out of the gate. Carrier is Massive and Armored, which means Corruptor is DEFINITELY viable and infestors would just spank this. I won't go as far as to declare this completely impractical, but their are many holes in this.
Corrupters get absolutely smashed by voidrays that fight isn't even close. Also why are you talking about mutas and then saying makes corrupters instead?
Well I'm glad people are still interested in this build, I still use it from time to time on some maps like shattered temple or tal darim. It's definitely a build worth having in ones repertoire imo.
On April 24 2011 06:46 RAGEMOAR The Pope wrote: How do you counter if they go roaches?
That's a very poor question, you mean if they go early roach aggression? Well unlike Zeerax vs Mondragon I build gateways and don't build colossus so I have stalkers/sentry support and not spent money investing into colossus and double stargate voidray will eventually put an end to roach aggression, a key thing to remember is to get your robo relatively fast if you see mass roach. Also canons canons canons.
The strategy seems to be build every unit. I haven't got a chance to try it yet, but it seems that you would want to cut out as many unnecessary parts of the strategy as possible, that way you have more resources for the parts you do need.
Also if they're going roaches I think it might be better just to go stalker immortal.
On April 25 2011 01:59 talkingmuffin wrote: The strategy seems to be build every unit. I haven't got a chance to try it yet, but it seems that you would want to cut out as many unnecessary parts of the strategy as possible, that way you have more resources for the parts you do need.
Also if they're going roaches I think it might be better just to go stalker immortal.
It doesn't build Immortals or Colossus, normal Robo builds build every unit except carriers most of the time so I don't understand your comment about "builds every unit" variety is a good thing. Also once you get 6-7 voidrays with some upgrades roaches melt faster than they would from stalker/immortal, and you don't lose as many units as you would with stalker/immortal.
If you go mothership with this zerg can't reveal it too well. Overseers get blown up instantly and infestors can't get close if you mass phoenix with only ~5 carriers. If you get air ugprades carriers are practically chainsaws.
On April 25 2011 07:59 JustPlay wrote: If you go mothership with this zerg can't reveal it too well. Overseers get blown up instantly and infestors can't get close if you mass phoenix with only ~5 carriers. If you get air ugprades carriers are practically chainsaws.
Yup and if you get 7-8 voidrays they kill corrupters faster than corrupters can kill the mothership. This also allows DT's to rule in combat even when you don't have a mothership, overseers are quite easy to snipe since alot of zergs suffer from the same mistake that alot of protoss do being that they group the overseer with their army like most protoss group their observer with their army, unfortunately for the overseer it isn't cloaked.
It sounded more like "High level player is doing this in grandmaster, just wanting to let you know it works". Do not be so quick to assume negative things.
On April 25 2011 08:59 Ihsahn wrote: white ra is doing something like this almost every PvZ in his stream..
So? This OP is letting you know how to play the build. You sound like this topic is useless just because WhiteRa does it.
huh?
On April 25 2011 10:02 VoodooTissue wrote: It sounded more like "High level player is doing this in grandmaster, just wanting to let you know it works". Do not be so quick to assume negative things.
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O NOT BE AFRAID TO EXPAND***, You will need the gas, keep expanding, keep teching every which way and upgrade both Air Armor* and Ground attack, this was discussed until critical mass of carriers, armor helps your interceptors stay alive longer and inevitably more dps, ground attack obviously helps widdle ling/hydra/roach numbers with your stalker/archon/DT's/immortals/ect.
