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"Carrier Has Arrived" Refreshing New PvZ Strategy

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Hierarch
Profile Joined February 2011
United States2197 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 22:19:17
March 18 2011 04:13 GMT
#1
Intro
Big thanks to iEchoic, one of my old team mates from a different game, for the format! Also thanks to JelloGelatin who suggested I post this on TL! Lastly thanks to my friend Andrew Tribone for helping me smooth the build out with constant customs

* I am by no means a top player, however I am a competent player. Hopefully some better players can help me assess this build I've had so much fun using.

I started to get bored of the same old same old colossus ball mentality in PvZ, sure it's good and it works, but zergs are really starting to work out how to do quite well against it. Now I've seen alot of phoenix play to force Hydras and then go colossus to counter the Hydras, but what about just staying with air units! Some quick notes about the build:

- Extremely safe and stable with a standard 3 gate expand
- Able to constantly harass zerg all game
- Allows for passive play like a colossus style but allows for some activity

The result is a 3 Gate expand opening into 2 stargates while using Carriers as the end game unit.

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This build is highly untested at top level of play, but I could see it succeeding (hopefully).

Overview
+ Show Spoiler +
This build starts out with a safe 3 warpgate expansion with sentry's and zealots, however it involves only 4-6 sentrys instead of the 6-10 and is extremely zealot heavy. The main goal of this build is to safely expand and then deny zerg a 3rd base for as long as possible and constantly keeping zerg in their base as much as possible. After puting down the nexus a forge is built and then a 4th gateway and 2 stargates, you must put down 2-3 canons at your natural since observers come extremely late in this build. As soon as the stargates finish 1 voidray is made and then phoenix are made for as long as you wish. I usually go to 5-8 phoenix.

The voidray's main purpose is to snipe zerg's 3rd base that usually is starting or just started at this point. With 1 voidray and 5-6 phoenix you can almost always kill the 3rd hatch, or force a cancel. The phoenix can then go around killing overlords and queens. The usual reaction by zerg if they aren't already going Hydra's is to make a Hydra Den. Now you have 1 of 2 options with this build. You can continue to make phoenix and get into the 10-12 count and just start picking small groups of hydras up, phoenix do amazing damage to Hydras and kill them quite quickly. Or option two is that zerg will put down spore crawlers at his bases, if they put down 1 spore you can just ignore it and pick up drones and queens no problem, so it really makes them put 2-3 which hurts their economy greatly.

The reason this build is so zealot heavy is that all your gas is going into the air units and upgrades, I start +1 air attack and +1 ground weapons around the time my stargates finish. So the gas ends up being sunk into upgrades, air units which leaves a need for a mineral sink. Zealots, Probes, Canons and Nexus are the main mineral sinks.

When comfortable you take your 3rd and make about 3-5 canons at it zoning one side off. At some point before taking your 3rd base put down a twilight council, when it finishes research charge ASAP, this makes all those zealots you made in the early game only semi useless, and start on ground weapons 2 and 3. When the 3rd goes up put down your fleet beacon and a dark shrine and 2 more gateways, and start making carriers out of your 2 stargates, make sure to get the intercepter upgrade and you can start a mothership if you can squeeze it in, I usually only get one towards when I'm at 180-190 food. Also put down your robo when you feel you need an observer.

All the while you should be harrassing with DT's and Phoenix where you can, I usually use DT's to deny zerg a 4th base while sending 1-2 to try and kill drones. Throughout the game upgrades should be going, I usually have atleast 2+/1+ on my air and 3/1+ on my ground each time, but since you can just constantly chronoboost the cybernetics core and one forge you can upgrade constantly and consistently.

Once you get 3 bases rolling you can just harass as much as you want and max out, once maxed add 2 more stargates and 4-6 more gateways.

The main power of this build is that the only good anti air zerg has are queens, hydras and corrupters. Voidrays kill corrupters extremely fast and carriers kill hydras and queens quite fast. Along with tons of zealots and a few stalkers the hydras just disintegrate. When refilling your army all your gas is going to go into carriers so you mostly are warping in zealots unless you have extra gas in which case you can use stalkers.

This build can even hold most early aggression with use of good scouting and voidrays + ff's. Phoenix can also lift 6-8 units and just erase them from the math, which allows you to be safe while harassing.


TL;DR+ Show Spoiler +
Stargate play, phoenix, voidray, carrier, zealot


Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
NOTE: this build order is very weird. You can tweak it as much as you want and transition into whatever you want.

-9 Pylon (scout) - I usually pylon block the zerg's natural 95% of the time if I can
-13 Gateway (to form the zealot wall at your ramp with the core)
-14 Gas
-18 Core (when your gateway finishes)
-19 2nd gas after your core
-19-21 Zealot (when you can afford it)
-22-24 Pylon
-(supply counts discontinued from here - keep making probes nonstop and don't be afraid to chronoboost them out as much as you want)
-Warp Gate when your core finishes
-2-3 sentrys after the zealot
-Gateways 2 and 3 around 28-32 supply
-when warp gate is 90%+ done walk down your ramp and plant your nexus
-pylon by your ramp
-take the 2 gasses preemptively when the nexus is about 40-50%
-forge next to the pylon
-2 stargates in a tucked away corner
-4th gateway next to the forge, 2 canons wherever you feel they are needed. Youcan get -a 3rd but it's preferential.
-Once stargates finish, voidray, phoenix
-once you start those two air units +1 ground weapons and +1 air weapons, upgrade +1 ground armor and +1 air armor when they finish
-send your voidray wherever you feel it's most useful, leave your base with phoenix when you have 4, rally the other phoenix to the others and harass, pick up queens 1st
-pylons,probes constantly
-Warp in gateway units when you have the money, zelaots mostly but you can fit stalkers in where you want. When you're done with phoenix production make 4-6 voidrays. Now if the phoenix harass does a ton of damage you canjust go and kill them with the voidray timing, otherwise take your 3rd and plant down a twilight council and fleet beacon
-canons at your 3rd and begin carrier production


Why it Works
1) Map control
+ Show Spoiler +
This build gains early map control over all Zerg Compositions simply because phoenix keep overlords off the map and can lift units off watchtowers, a zerg in the dark is not nearly as dangerous as one with vision everywhere.


2) Harassment
+ Show Spoiler +
DT's and Phoenix give protoss harassment potential all game and since phoenix are so fast they can harass and still be recalled to defend. Phoenix also act like marauders in the fact that if you try and run from them they will lift the units and kill alot of them for free


3) Zerg anti air is quite lackluster

+ Show Spoiler +
Hydras - Extremely slow, and fragile, even if someone were to push using hydras, well placed forcefields and voidrays + phoenix lift can easily defend.

Corrupters - Zerg must have a metric ton of these to beat carrier, voidray, stalker. Since zealots just draw fire while everything else kills corrupters.

Queens - Only viable against 1-2 voidrays, phoenix negate them almost completely as anti air.

Mutalisks - Phoenix just shred these, it's not even worth trying.

From there, notice:

Zerg can't really make a good attack
Hydra - Too slow and fragile
Queen - Too slow and phoenix have usually killed 4-5 of them already
Corrupters - quite slow, don't really do the job well enough
Mutalisks - No chance against 2 stargate phoenix


4) Economic Damage
+ Show Spoiler +
Phoenix can literally just kill infinite queens, overlords, drones and run away since they are so fast, while DT's add a late game option


4) Forcing responses
+ Show Spoiler +
You force Hydras or spore crawlers or the zerg loses, simply put.


Reacting to Zerg Openings
+ Show Spoiler +
Since it uses the 3 gate expand, you can use the same strategies as your colossus strategy to defend 1 base all ins, and it can defend early roach pressure with void rays and phoenix, it can defend vs ling + hydra pushes with zealots, ff's, voidrays and pheonix.

Here's some basic principles:
1) You must be as active as possible with the phoenix to fully utilize them
2) Do not be afraid to build zealots, they soak up a TON of damage and they stall
3) Do not forget upgrades, the forge and core should always be upgrading
4) Once Carriers are out, you are in control, carriers are quite underestimated, unknown in SC2


Lategame Compositions
+ Show Spoiler +
Carriers are better than colossus for a couple reasons as an end game unit:

1) 6+ colossus become redundant as they cannot usually form a good enough concave. Carriers just become exponentially better as their numbers increase

2) Carriers have massive range just like colossus, but the intercepters wreak havoc with the targeting AI, and Zealots keep Hydras from crawling forward to hit the carriers.

3) Zerg T3 CANNOT ATTACK AIR UNITS!


Tips and Tricks

When you get a high phoenix count you can just fly through fields of overlords and just watch them evaporate.

Replays

Myself

These games aren't the best, but they demonstrate what this build accomplishes:

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/151330-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk (Actually is on Shattered Temple)

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/150168-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/149442-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch (Actually is on Typhon Peaks)

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/151934-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk (Actually is on Shattered Temple)

Gemini_19

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I have more, but they are just custom games versus my friend while I worked on the build

I'm mainly looking for feedback and to see if this build would be viable at high level PvZ, I am not looking for comments on my play as I know I'm not that good :D

Edit #1 Mass Hydralisk does not do well against a carrier composition, they are too slow and just get melted before they can slither up to hit the carriers, I've had this tried against me many times, and others in this thread have echoed my findings. IF you don't believe it then go test it.

Also, I never meant for this build to be better than a colossus strategy, or to be used every game. I just found it a refreshing twist that can be implemented with a standard 3 gate expand.

Edit #2 I will add replays of myself and anyone else who is using this strategy to this OP for more reference points.
MC|NonY|HerO|NaDa|MVP|DRG|Ret|Sen|Dimaga|Leenock
MERLIN.
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada546 Posts
March 18 2011 04:25 GMT
#2
So let me get this straight... The zealot is the pilot of the pheonix, but after crashing after killing a few overlords gets promoted into a void ray later to transform into a carrier like the cripples on Family guy who created the "crippletron"?


User was warned for this post
"A bullet to the head will solve your problems."
KillerPenguin
Profile Joined June 2004
United States516 Posts
March 18 2011 04:44 GMT
#3
The damage of a Carrier is 3 times less per cost assuming a Collosus is hitting 3 things with it's beams. Everything else ends up being about equal so unless this is an island map I would not produce carriers even if I had already made double stargate. I feel as though if your really going to go carriers u need mass cannons, hope he doesn't scout it and 3 stargate attack with Carrier after Pheonix harass and hope he made too much ground, I could see that working against diamond and lower.
http://www.escapeintolife.com/
CCalms
Profile Joined November 2010
United States341 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 04:50:41
March 18 2011 04:48 GMT
#4
The reason this works a lot is because zergs get super scared of moving out when they are having trouble getting their third up, but the sad truth is that this build was just DIE to any 2 base roach hydra push. Smarter opponents are really good about identifying times when you are relying on harass alone and will just kill you for it. I can only see this working after a 3 gate expand.

EDIT: Ohp, it does use the 3gate expand. I assumed you opened VR+phoenix harass or something. Nice build, I've been going carriers lately in PvZ and after some practice I've found that in a big fight the carriers are totally safe from hydras but you HAVE to have void rays for corruptors, stalkers won't cut it.
Hierarch
Profile Joined February 2011
United States2197 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 04:51:42
March 18 2011 04:49 GMT
#5
On March 18 2011 13:44 KillerPenguin wrote:
The damage of a Carrier is 3 times less per cost assuming a Collosus is hitting 3 things with it's beams. Everything else ends up being about equal so unless this is an island map I would not produce carriers even if I had already made double stargate. I feel as though if your really going to go carriers u need mass cannons, hope he doesn't scout it and 3 stargate attack with Carrier after Pheonix harass and hope he made too much ground, I could see that working against diamond and lower.


True on the colossus, but carriers offer the targeting nightmare that broodlords offer as well, if you watch the replays mass corrupter really doesn't even work as well as you would think.

Could you give me an example where you would need more than 2-3 canons? I'm not carrier rushing, it's a transition. But thanks for the input.

On March 18 2011 13:48 CCalms wrote:
The reason this works a lot is because zergs get super scared of moving out when they are having trouble getting their third up, but the sad truth is that this build was just DIE to any 2 base roach hydra push. Smarter opponents are really good about identifying times when you are relying on harass alone and will just kill you for it. I can only see this working after a 3 gate expand.


It does come from a 3 gate expand as my 1st post states, Do you think a hydra, roach push could crack 2-3 canons, 5-6 phoenix and 2-3 voidrays with some ff's? Since phoenix can pick hydras up and kill them relatively fast?
MC|NonY|HerO|NaDa|MVP|DRG|Ret|Sen|Dimaga|Leenock
Audi309
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States90 Posts
March 18 2011 04:50 GMT
#6
would loooove to see some top level players extensively try to refine this strategy. the question is can you effectively deal harass so zerg can't get those hoards of units they're known for. since you wont have those aoe dealing units, this could get very tricky. will be interesting to see what comes of this.
Hierarch
Profile Joined February 2011
United States2197 Posts
March 18 2011 04:58 GMT
#7
On March 18 2011 13:50 Audi309 wrote:
would loooove to see some top level players extensively try to refine this strategy. the question is can you effectively deal harass so zerg can't get those hoards of units they're known for. since you wont have those aoe dealing units, this could get very tricky. will be interesting to see what comes of this.


Carriers DPS is actually insane when they get +2 or +3 air attack, and to replace the aoe for late game the intercepters help by messing up targeting AI, the 1st replay I posted demonstrates this quite well.

I also would love to see some players fool around with this as it can give some good variance in play after a 3gate expand you can go colossus or stargate.

On March 18 2011 13:48 CCalms wrote:
EDIT: Ohp, it does use the 3gate expand. I assumed you opened VR+phoenix harass or something. Nice build, I've been going carriers lately in PvZ and after some practice I've found that in a big fight the carriers are totally safe from hydras but you HAVE to have void rays for corruptors, stalkers won't cut it.


I actually have found that zergs neglect air upgrades other than maybe +1 air attack while you can easily power 3/1 air or 3/2 air with chronoboost and then carriers just beat corrupters.
MC|NonY|HerO|NaDa|MVP|DRG|Ret|Sen|Dimaga|Leenock
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
March 18 2011 05:10 GMT
#8
I've been trying mass Phoenix into Voidray/Carrier for the last two weeks, ever since I fucked up a 3gate expand one game and built 2cybernetics cores. and went "fuck it" powered air upgrades with 20 phoenix into voidray/Carrier...and had it work surprisingly well

I think i've tried this around 15 times now, majority of it wins because I don't think Zerg have ever seen a Carrier in PvZ before.

Anyway, few things I've found help:

- Rally your first Voidray to your opponents third (I wait till I have 2 Phoenix to send it out), so you can deny any greedy plays

- Keep Phoenixes alive in favor of doing eco damage early. You don't have to do too much damage, the real damage comes in when the Zerg tries to take a third and you have 15-20 Phoenixes with Voidrays building (and most likely close to 2-2).

-When Zerg takes his third then you can go in and kill mineral lines. If you ever wanted to see Zerg's 1 control group syndrome put to the test, this is it. Just fly between two bases then instantly split your group in half and send them to each expo. Most Zergs squirm at this point, because if they split their hydras and you didn't split your Phoenixes, you can go in and kill all their hydras sometimes

- Cannon your third (and ever expo after that) like your life depends on it, because it does

- You need a decent amount of Voidrays before you can go Carriers otherwise you just lose to Corruptors

- Don't try this close position Meta/Shattered. You need a third, doesn't matter if it is a bit late but you really need one to cross the line where you you can only win fights where you are defending to where you can comfortably engage the Zerg.

- Suicide Zealots at creep tumors. Hydras on creep do super well on Phoenixes, but if they step off they turn into a giant conga line and you can mangetout around and snipe the hydra without taking the full DPS of the hydra ball. Mid game just grab a warp prism with an observer and go around killing Tumors where possible

- DT's work great as amazing base defense against a Drop-Happy/Aggressive Zerg. Your Phoenix snipe all the overseers then you just run away and let all the DT's rip apart the Hydra/Roach. Just use the Phoenix to then intercept any more overseers that come

- Complete wall offs tend to bite you in the butt sometimes, because until you have Carriers you don't have a lot of range on Hydra and you don't want to stream Zealots through a tiny hole into the Hydralist meat grinder

- Think about getting Templar with speed Prisms lategame, a Smart Zerg started to Neural Parasite charged Voidrays which actually hurt since they rip apart Carriers

- Get a Mothership. Just because you can.
(but seriously, keep it at your base and mass recall your fleet if it looks bad)
LesPhoques
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada782 Posts
March 18 2011 05:13 GMT
#9
I think this will die to early roach+speedling attack off 2 bases. You wouldn't be able to hold that with 4-5 sentries and zealots only.
Hierarch
Profile Joined February 2011
United States2197 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 05:19:24
March 18 2011 05:18 GMT
#10
On March 18 2011 14:10 Dommk wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I've been trying mass Phoenix into Voidray/Carrier for the last two weeks, ever since I fucked up a 3gate expand one game and built 2cybernetics cores. and went "fuck it" powered air upgrades with 20 phoenix into voidray/Carrier...and had it work surprisingly well

I think i've tried this around 15 times now, majority of it wins because I don't think Zerg have ever seen a Carrier in PvZ before.

Anyway, few things I've found help:

- Rally your first Voidray to your opponents third (I wait till I have 2 Phoenix to send it out), so you can deny any greedy plays

- Keep Phoenixes alive in favor of doing eco damage early. You don't have to do too much damage, the real damage comes in when the Zerg tries to take a third and you have 15-20 Phoenixes with Voidrays building (and most likely close to 2-2).

-When Zerg takes his third then you can go in and kill mineral lines. If you ever wanted to see Zerg's 1 control group syndrome put to the test, this is it. Just fly between two bases then instantly split your group in half and send them to each expo. Most Zergs squirm at this point, because if they split their hydras and you didn't split your Phoenixes, you can go in and kill all their hydras sometimes

- Cannon your third (and ever expo after that) like your life depends on it, because it does

- You need a decent amount of Voidrays before you can go Carriers otherwise you just lose to Corruptors

- Don't try this close position Meta/Shattered. You need a third, doesn't matter if it is a bit late but you really need one to cross the line where you you can only win fights where you are defending to where you can comfortably engage the Zerg.

- Suicide Zealots at creep tumors. Hydras on creep do super well on Phoenixes, but if they step off they turn into a giant conga line and you can mangetout around and snipe the hydra without taking the full DPS of the hydra ball. Mid game just grab a warp prism with an observer and go around killing Tumors where possible

- DT's work great as amazing base defense against a Drop-Happy/Aggressive Zerg. Your Phoenix snipe all the overseers then you just run away and let all the DT's rip apart the Hydra/Roach. Just use the Phoenix to then intercept any more overseers that come

- Complete wall offs tend to bite you in the butt sometimes, because until you have Carriers you don't have a lot of range on Hydra and you don't want to stream Zealots through a tiny hole into the Hydralist meat grinder

- Think about getting Templar with speed Prisms lategame, a Smart Zerg started to Neural Parasite charged Voidrays which actually hurt since they rip apart Carriers

- Get a Mothership. Just because you can.
(but seriously, keep it at your base and mass recall your fleet if it looks bad)


- I don't quite make that many phoenix, but powering out 12-15 could work since they are just an all around good unit, build fast and don't cost that much.

- Ya, I need to work on getting my robo down faster for an obs to deny creep

- Yup, once I have DT's or a mothership I just target overseers

- I do a semi wall off at my natural with my ramp connecting to my nexus, but I agree that full walls are suicide.

- I haven't found any point in my games where I have any gas to spare, I'm always mineral heavy which is why I make so many zealots, and I always canon my 3rd+ expos hard

- I haven't gotten to try this in close pos on those maps, but thanks for the advice

- I usually get 5-7 Voidrays before I even start my 1st carrier

- Do you go for drones or queens 1st when harassing with phoenix?

- Glad to see someone else trying the stargate play over colossus ball, thanks for the input :D

On March 18 2011 14:13 LesPhoques wrote:
I think this will die to early roach+speedling attack off 2 bases. You wouldn't be able to hold that with 4-5 sentries and zealots only.


Not even with 2-3 canons? Also around what time does this attack come usually? Cause with 1 voidray out I can easily survive.
MC|NonY|HerO|NaDa|MVP|DRG|Ret|Sen|Dimaga|Leenock
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 05:25:34
March 18 2011 05:19 GMT
#11
On March 18 2011 14:13 LesPhoques wrote:
I think this will die to early roach+speedling attack off 2 bases. You wouldn't be able to hold that with 4-5 sentries and zealots only.

It is 50/50. If you see it coming then you can stop making Phoenixes and switch to Voidrays for the attack. If it is a map like Typhon then I don't think it is possible to do this style of play. There are too many paths into every base and your naturals are super open. Shattered Temple/Delta Quad/Scrap Station/Cross or Close by air on Meta work fine.

Probably don't want to do it on Xel'Naga/Close position ST and Meta/Slagpits/Typhon. Backwater is up in the air really, I veto that map so I wouldn't know.

- Do you go for drones or queens 1st when harassing with phoenix?


If you can get a queen early it is worth it, but most people mass Queens as well hydra. I try to not prioritize harassing over Phoenixes because you really need them if Zerg attacks you.

Yeah I think I might be making too many Phoenixes, I don't know, there isn't really any kind of standard for this so I've just been winging it every game
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
March 18 2011 05:21 GMT
#12
Mutas are actually extremely good against Phoenix as long as there are a decent number of them. Definitely not worth dismissing that.

Good build, though. I've long thought that Carriers were incredibly underused, especially given the huge delays that Phoenix builds can cause in Zerg's ability to mass and push out.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
Selkie
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States530 Posts
March 18 2011 05:24 GMT
#13
This looks good and interesting, but I'm wondering how well it'd do against pure hydras. Something terran can do (And as a terran player, I'm looking at it from their POV) is simply stim marines, and kill the interceptors to win. Have you ever had a zerg go pure hydra, and attempt to do this, or do they tend not to/pure hydra loses? (assumption: 3/3 hydras, since zerg tends to get double ups and this would be very late, against a almost maxed army of yours)

Otherwise, I like it =) I offrace toss, and love stargate play- I resort to it to get out of bad situations ^_^
Hierarch
Profile Joined February 2011
United States2197 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 05:30:04
March 18 2011 05:28 GMT
#14
On March 18 2011 14:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Mutas are actually extremely good against Phoenix as long as there are a decent number of them. Definitely not worth dismissing that.

Good build, though. I've long thought that Carriers were incredibly underused, especially given the huge delays that Phoenix builds can cause in Zerg's ability to mass and push out.


If I see mutas being made I can outproduce zerg and keep air dominance with 2 chronoboosted stargate phoenix, maybe not worth dismissing entirely, but to be fair like 90% of zergs won't bother with the investment into mutas if they see 4-5 phoenix already. Thanks for the input though, but do you think a zerg could fight for air dominance against phoenix? Even if they did get equal numbers how would zerg hold off a push of zealot/sentry/stalker/phoenix?

On March 18 2011 14:24 Selkie wrote:
This looks good and interesting, but I'm wondering how well it'd do against pure hydras. Something terran can do (And as a terran player, I'm looking at it from their POV) is simply stim marines, and kill the interceptors to win. Have you ever had a zerg go pure hydra, and attempt to do this, or do they tend not to/pure hydra loses? (assumption: 3/3 hydras, since zerg tends to get double ups and this would be very late, against a almost maxed army of yours)

Otherwise, I like it =) I offrace toss, and love stargate play- I resort to it to get out of bad situations ^_^


Watch the 1st replay I posted, mass hydras is my opponents unit composition choice :D
MC|NonY|HerO|NaDa|MVP|DRG|Ret|Sen|Dimaga|Leenock
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
March 18 2011 05:30 GMT
#15
On March 18 2011 14:24 Selkie wrote:
This looks good and interesting, but I'm wondering how well it'd do against pure hydras. Something terran can do (And as a terran player, I'm looking at it from their POV) is simply stim marines, and kill the interceptors to win. Have you ever had a zerg go pure hydra, and attempt to do this, or do they tend not to/pure hydra loses? (assumption: 3/3 hydras, since zerg tends to get double ups and this would be very late, against a almost maxed army of yours)

Otherwise, I like it =) I offrace toss, and love stargate play- I resort to it to get out of bad situations ^_^

If they go pure Hydra I usually end up winning. When you have a lot of Carriers you have some crazy DPS and you can start ripping through Hydra quickly, when it looks like hes taken out half the interceptors you can recall/back out then engage him again.

I was playing around with the unit Tester, cost for cost, Hydra don't do well against Carriers especially offcreep where it is near impossible for them to even target Carriers. Try it your self, you will be surprised.

But yeah, this doesn't work against Terran. The Marine counters every single unit in this build..lol
Hierarch
Profile Joined February 2011
United States2197 Posts
March 18 2011 05:31 GMT
#16
On March 18 2011 14:30 Dommk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2011 14:24 Selkie wrote:
This looks good and interesting, but I'm wondering how well it'd do against pure hydras. Something terran can do (And as a terran player, I'm looking at it from their POV) is simply stim marines, and kill the interceptors to win. Have you ever had a zerg go pure hydra, and attempt to do this, or do they tend not to/pure hydra loses? (assumption: 3/3 hydras, since zerg tends to get double ups and this would be very late, against a almost maxed army of yours)

Otherwise, I like it =) I offrace toss, and love stargate play- I resort to it to get out of bad situations ^_^

If they go pure Hydra I usually end up winning. When you have a lot of Carriers you have some crazy DPS and you can start ripping through Hydra quickly, when it looks like hes taken out half the interceptors you can recall/back out then engage him again.

I was playing around with the unit Tester, cost for cost, Hydra don't do well against Carriers especially offcreep where it is near impossible for them to even target Carriers. Try it your self, you will be surprised.

But yeah, this doesn't work against Terran. The Marine counters every single unit in this build..lol


Yup, I don't even bother trying this vs Terran, stimmed marines and turrets just own stargate play lol. Although I've seen KiWiKaKi doing some cool gateway into lategame carrier plays vs terran.
MC|NonY|HerO|NaDa|MVP|DRG|Ret|Sen|Dimaga|Leenock
Aequos
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada606 Posts
March 18 2011 05:34 GMT
#17
Out of curiosity, what happens when the opponent reacts by pumping corruptors to deal with the Phoenix/1 VR harass, especially if that was his plan originally? The corruptors can deal with void rays as long as they outnumber them fairly soundly, and he can then fly the corruptors to your Stargates to kill newly made VRs.
I first realized Immortals were reincarnated Dragoons when I saw them dancing helplessly behind my Stalkers.
Maynarde
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia1286 Posts
March 18 2011 05:37 GMT
#18
Interesting... I don't know I can't see how a reasonably high level player would be stunted by this. I will almost always make corruptors against Protoss, and they're not that hard to mass. With corruption and target fire the carriers will evaporate, so will void rays. Plus, pros would be keeping close to perfect macro / harassment which would make it difficult to get to carrier tech untouched.
CommentatorAustralian SC2 Caster | Twitter: @MaynardeSC2 | Twitch: twitch.tv/maynarde
Hierarch
Profile Joined February 2011
United States2197 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 05:42:22
March 18 2011 05:39 GMT
#19
On March 18 2011 14:34 Aequos wrote:
Out of curiosity, what happens when the opponent reacts by pumping corruptors to deal with the Phoenix/1 VR harass, especially if that was his plan originally? The corruptors can deal with void rays as long as they outnumber them fairly soundly, and he can then fly the corruptors to your Stargates to kill newly made VRs.


My friend actually tried that for like 5 games, he went corrupters to deal with the VR and phoenix, but If I see that I just up my gateway count, and I either stop stargate production or I just start massing VR's in a corner. If I stop stargate production I throw down two robos and pump immortals. But corrupters aren't cheap and they don't actually do anything other than deter harass. Also a very important fact to remember is that phoenix are faster than corrupters, so you can just raid drone lines and leave before the corrupters can even get a volley or two off.

On March 18 2011 14:37 Maynarde wrote:
Interesting... I don't know I can't see how a reasonably high level player would be stunted by this. I will almost always make corruptors against Protoss, and they're not that hard to mass. With corruption and target fire the carriers will evaporate, so will void rays. Plus, pros would be keeping close to perfect macro / harassment which would make it difficult to get to carrier tech untouched.


The protoss is the harasser in this build by a long shot, phoenix and DT's make the zerg play a lot more defensively than they would want to normally, and teching to carriers off 3 bases is actually quite easy, all you need to do is put down a fleet beacon, and since 2 stargates cost 300/300 off 2 base while colossus play costs 600/500 off 2 base means you save a good amount of resources. Also I think you're overestimating corrupters, they really aren't that good, from my experience and I've had people just mass corrupters because they didn't know what else to do vs this build.
MC|NonY|HerO|NaDa|MVP|DRG|Ret|Sen|Dimaga|Leenock
DarthXX
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia998 Posts
March 18 2011 05:44 GMT
#20
Mutas shread phoenix when they hit a nice number, however with this build you will be able to produce a lot more phoeinx than we normally see. What I mean is we usually see things like 5-6 phoenix getting taken out by 25+ mutas, but I think if you had like 15 phoenix it would be a different story. But its hard to say since we've never seen this in a pro game.
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