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In theorycrafting the strengths of this build and it's weaknesses, IMO the people in this thread have to stop theorycrafting unit compositions, and remember that there's timings involved.
Sure, mass voidray/carrier is strong... If I could get 3/3 hydra queen infester corrupter ultralisk, baneling I'd probably roll you too.
It's the getting there that bothers me.
The "deny his third and take your own" line killed it for me. If toss takes a 3rd, it's basically gg anyways, esp if you let toss tech and get a third.
My question is how yo plan on teching to carriers and DTs while having a substantial ground army to hold off a zerg who throws just as much money at killing you as you do in saturating your expansion and teching to tier 3 in two completely perpendicular tech paths. The answer is that you don't rush for it, but you already have ended up in a comfortable enough position where you can get to it; but by no means is getting to it a means to an end.
If the zerg never attacks, or is just held down so much by the phoenix play that you basically won with phoenix, how does that let the carrier even enter the picture? Basically if you pull off the prerequisites for this build, you've already won, and carrier's just a spice to the mix.
If the zerg doesn't scout, and lets you get to tier 3 AND get even bases, why do we even need to speculate on a unit composition; you've already won.
Same thing for Zerg, if they get to tier 3 And get an economy lead... I'd say it's safe to say they're in a pretty good position.
There's SO much money being thrown at tech here, I'd say that you're very fragile, as much as you'd like to tote the cannons that keep you alive, you're short on forcefield, and a well-timed baneling/roach/queen all-in or drop would probably kill you. Not that that's popular right now, but it's something I've been working on, and I've found decent success with it. (also frustrated how much you under-estimated well-controlled queens throughout your post)
What would you do to react to a roach/queen drop in your main, with re-enforcements of roach/ling at your front? Phoenix don't do didley squat to roaches; they can lift them, but it takes forever to kill one. Voidrays will definitely help you defend, but you'll still lose the ground war most-likely; also queens and voidrays are about on-par in terms of combat efficiency against eachother. (exception being that queens build faster and are substantially cheaper)
The phoenix opening's strong, no matter what you tech to; logically if you stick to 1 tech path and you have good synergy with what you invest in, coming from a position of strength, is it any wonder that you win games?
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not bad man but honestly those zergys kinda sucked, none of em even scouted ur base after the intial scout, no saced ovys nothing
also jello had u beat but after that huge engagement he just sat there with his maxed army and let u rebuild, hes the only one that was pretty ok the other 2 had like 30 probes on 3 bases, toss should almost never out drone zerg. Also id like to see how this would work against some nydus/drop plays from zerg, ill usually nydus a protoss and when they send their entire army have like 20-30 lings go take out and expo and a bunch of probes.
Most zergs will throw down 2 spore crawlers and get their hatches building an extra queen the SECOND they see a stargate or even a phoenix if theyre that late. Id like to see how this would work against some other players.
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On March 18 2011 17:28 DeCiBle wrote:
In theorycrafting the strengths of this build and it's weaknesses, IMO the people in this thread have to stop theorycrafting unit compositions, and remember that there's timings involved.
Sure, mass voidray/carrier is strong... If I could get 3/3 hydra queen infester corrupter ultralisk, baneling I'd probably roll you too.
It's the getting there that bothers me.
The "deny his third and take your own" line killed it for me. If toss takes a 3rd, it's basically gg anyways, esp if you let toss tech and get a third.
My question is how yo plan on teching to carriers and DTs while having a substantial ground army to hold off a zerg who throws just as much money at killing you as you do in saturating your expansion and teching to tier 3 in two completely perpendicular tech paths. The answer is that you don't rush for it, but you already have ended up in a comfortable enough position where you can get to it; but by no means is getting to it a means to an end.
If the zerg never attacks, or is just held down so much by the phoenix play that you basically won with phoenix, how does that let the carrier even enter the picture? Basically if you pull off the prerequisites for this build, you've already won, and carrier's just a spice to the mix.
If the zerg doesn't scout, and lets you get to tier 3 AND get even bases, why do we even need to speculate on a unit composition; you've already won.
Same thing for Zerg, if they get to tier 3 And get an economy lead... I'd say it's safe to say they're in a pretty good position.
There's SO much money being thrown at tech here, I'd say that you're very fragile, as much as you'd like to tote the cannons that keep you alive, you're short on forcefield, and a well-timed baneling/roach/queen all-in or drop would probably kill you. Not that that's popular right now, but it's something I've been working on, and I've found decent success with it. (also frustrated how much you under-estimated well-controlled queens throughout your post)
What would you do to react to a roach/queen drop in your main, with re-enforcements of roach/ling at your front? Phoenix don't do didley squat to roaches; they can lift them, but it takes forever to kill one. Voidrays will definitely help you defend, but you'll still lose the ground war most-likely; also queens and voidrays are about on-par in terms of combat efficiency against eachother. (exception being that queens build faster and are substantially cheaper)
The phoenix opening's strong, no matter what you tech to; logically if you stick to 1 tech path and you have good synergy with what you invest in, coming from a position of strength, is it any wonder that you win games?
It's not a fast tech to carriers, you get your fleet beacon and dark shrine when your 3rd is saturated, and DT's are easily accessible since you get a twilight council to further your upgrades. Also, it's not like it's easy for zerg to scout with phoenix controlling the map, which is one of the strengths of this build.
Well controlled queens are good and all but against 6-10 phoenix it doesn't matter how well you can control them if i just pick them up. I do feel like this build is weak to all in type of plays since you cut some of the sentrys, and I guess I'd just have to experience those all-ins to see how I would react. Against the all in you described, wouldn't it be obvious what your intention is if i see a clump of overlords crossing the map? Giving my phoenix ample time to kill a couple of those overlords. Voidrays would clean that push up, phoenix can pick up the queens and then there's no anti air. You'd do some good damage probably but it sounds like a super all in strategy so the counter push would win the game I believe. But I'm not 100% sure.
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On March 18 2011 17:35 pyth0n wrote:
not bad man but honestly those zergys kinda sucked, none of em even scouted ur base after the intial scout, no saced ovys nothing
also jello had u beat but after that huge engagement he just sat there with his maxed army and let u rebuild, hes the only one that was pretty ok the other 2 had like 30 probes on 3 bases, toss should almost never out drone zerg. Also id like to see how this would work against some nydus/drop plays from zerg, ill usually nydus a protoss and when they send their entire army have like 20-30 lings go take out and expo and a bunch of probes.
Most zergs will throw down 2 spore crawlers and get their hatches building an extra queen the SECOND they see a stargate or even a phoenix if theyre that late. Id like to see how this would work against some other players.
Well they were the same skill level as me matchmaking wise, so that's why I'm hoping some higher level players will try this out.
Counter play can be quite effective, but without 1 button syndrome it's quite easy to defend ling attacks with the voids and cannons while sending the gateway units to deal with the nydus.
I would have more replays, but honestly I just have had those 3 PvZ's since I came up with this build lol, been a lot of PvP's lately.
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Currently im trying out to tech directly to carriers after the phoenix harass - of course only if the zerg transitions into hydras. In small numbers, carriers own hydras hardcore and a lot of zergs push with their hydras after they fend off the phoenix. From the cost point of view and the time needed to build them there isnt a big difference for the first two carriers and the first two colossus on the field after a double stargate opening:
Resources:
2x Robo + Robotics Bay: 2x 200M,100G, 1x 200M,200G | 2x colossus 300M,200G
Total: 1200M, 800G
Fleet beacon 300M,200G | 2x Carrier 350M,250G + 100M Interceptors
Total: 1200M, 700G
Time needed:
Robo 65 secs, Robobay 65 secs, colossus 75 secs
Total: 205 secs
Fleet beacon 60 secs, carrier 120 secs
Total: 180 secs
After that carrier are more expensive of course. But two carriers can cause a lot of havok that early in the game and give you time to transition into something else.
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On March 18 2011 17:40 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 17:28 DeCiBle wrote:
In theorycrafting the strengths of this build and it's weaknesses, IMO the people in this thread have to stop theorycrafting unit compositions, and remember that there's timings involved.
Sure, mass voidray/carrier is strong... If I could get 3/3 hydra queen infester corrupter ultralisk, baneling I'd probably roll you too.
It's the getting there that bothers me.
The "deny his third and take your own" line killed it for me. If toss takes a 3rd, it's basically gg anyways, esp if you let toss tech and get a third.
My question is how yo plan on teching to carriers and DTs while having a substantial ground army to hold off a zerg who throws just as much money at killing you as you do in saturating your expansion and teching to tier 3 in two completely perpendicular tech paths. The answer is that you don't rush for it, but you already have ended up in a comfortable enough position where you can get to it; but by no means is getting to it a means to an end.
If the zerg never attacks, or is just held down so much by the phoenix play that you basically won with phoenix, how does that let the carrier even enter the picture? Basically if you pull off the prerequisites for this build, you've already won, and carrier's just a spice to the mix.
If the zerg doesn't scout, and lets you get to tier 3 AND get even bases, why do we even need to speculate on a unit composition; you've already won.
Same thing for Zerg, if they get to tier 3 And get an economy lead... I'd say it's safe to say they're in a pretty good position.
There's SO much money being thrown at tech here, I'd say that you're very fragile, as much as you'd like to tote the cannons that keep you alive, you're short on forcefield, and a well-timed baneling/roach/queen all-in or drop would probably kill you. Not that that's popular right now, but it's something I've been working on, and I've found decent success with it. (also frustrated how much you under-estimated well-controlled queens throughout your post)
What would you do to react to a roach/queen drop in your main, with re-enforcements of roach/ling at your front? Phoenix don't do didley squat to roaches; they can lift them, but it takes forever to kill one. Voidrays will definitely help you defend, but you'll still lose the ground war most-likely; also queens and voidrays are about on-par in terms of combat efficiency against eachother. (exception being that queens build faster and are substantially cheaper)
The phoenix opening's strong, no matter what you tech to; logically if you stick to 1 tech path and you have good synergy with what you invest in, coming from a position of strength, is it any wonder that you win games?
It's not a fast tech to carriers, you get your fleet beacon and dark shrine when your 3rd is saturated, and DT's are easily accessible since you get a twilight council to further your upgrades. Also, it's not like it's easy for zerg to scout with phoenix controlling the map, which is one of the strengths of this build. Well controlled queens are good and all but against 6-10 phoenix it doesn't matter how well you can control them if i just pick them up. I do feel like this build is weak to all in type of plays since you cut some of the sentrys, and I guess I'd just have to experience those all-ins to see how I would react. Against the all in you described, wouldn't it be obvious what your intention is if i see a clump of overlords crossing the map? Giving my phoenix ample time to kill a couple of those overlords. Voidrays would clean that push up, phoenix can pick up the queens and then there's no anti air. You'd do some good damage probably but it sounds like a super all in strategy so the counter push would win the game I believe. But I'm not 100% sure.
What's frustrating is the over-confidence and single-mindedness of this.
Queens don't instantly die when you pick them up; for every ling you clean off of a xel naga tower or pluck from out front your base, you just lost a graviton beam (i.e. - I just saved a drone's life); and how do you plan on having a sufficient ground army, cannon coverage, 5-6 phoenix, and a void ray by the time I have overlord speed and drop, along with a handful of roaches?
There's no counter push when I snipe all the tech in your main. Also: I bring ALL my overlords and have them spread creep. Your phoenix might pick off 1, maybe 2, but that just brings an element of chance: Some are empty decoys.
The point isn't to end the game there; it's to reset your tech while I maintain an economic equilibrium with you; potentially crippling you if I clean up your ground forces without too many losses. (1 voidray may very well be able to kill ...mmm let's say 12 roaches?... but they'll do their fair share of damage and supply blockage before they die.)
My approach to ZvP's really aggressive though, so if you hit tier 3 at all vs me, it was gg a LONG time ago.
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The interceptors really don't mess up targeting AI in SC2. They do absorb some shots that would otherwise preferably be directed against the carrier, but killing interceptors is a lot easier in this game than in BW and is actually a somewhat viable tactic for dealing with carriers.
As to the overall viability of this strategy, I will agree that it does seem like a solid plan, however, my key problem with it is that the carriers don't actually appear in the game until you have already taken your third and denied the Zerg a third or at least denied the Zerg a fourth. This is a position of strength for a Protoss player vs a Zerg, and while Carriers may be a transition you could make work, its pretty hard to make the argument that they'd be outright better than a Colossus transition. Colossus/Stalker armies are just so good that its hard to justify using any other strategy unless your primary goal is to just "not go colossus" rather than actually using the best plan available.
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On March 18 2011 17:46 moonylo wrote:
Currently im trying out to tech directly to carriers after the phoenix harass - of course only if the zerg transitions into hydras. In small numbers, carriers own hydras hardcore and a lot of zergs push with their hydras after they fend off the phoenix. From the cost point of view and the time needed to build them there isnt a big difference for the first two carriers and the first two colossus on the field after a double stargate opening:
Resources:
2x Robo + Robotics Bay: 2x 200M,100G, 1x 200M,200G | 2x colossus 300M,200G
Total: 1200M, 800G
Fleet beacon 300M,200G | 2x Carrier 350M,250G + 100M Interceptors
Total: 1200M, 700G
Time needed:
Robo 65 secs, Robobay 65 secs, colossus 75 secs
Total: 205 secs
Fleet beacon 60 secs, carrier 120 secs
Total: 180 secs
After that carrier are more expensive of course. But two carriers can cause a lot of havok that early in the game and give you time to transition into something else.
Also you should add the cost of the intercepter speed upgrade and the extended thermal lance.
However I feel that getting a couple voidrays and taking a 3rd while defending is smarter than getting carriers that fast since your economy is strong enough to support carriers and constantly using your gateways. But that's not a bad idea, using 2 carriers to defend.
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New something like this would come out, corruptors just arent up to it lategame vs T3. But all the possibilities havent been explored yet, who knows.
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On March 18 2011 17:52 DeCiBle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 17:40 Hierarch wrote:On March 18 2011 17:28 DeCiBle wrote:
In theorycrafting the strengths of this build and it's weaknesses, IMO the people in this thread have to stop theorycrafting unit compositions, and remember that there's timings involved.
Sure, mass voidray/carrier is strong... If I could get 3/3 hydra queen infester corrupter ultralisk, baneling I'd probably roll you too.
It's the getting there that bothers me.
The "deny his third and take your own" line killed it for me. If toss takes a 3rd, it's basically gg anyways, esp if you let toss tech and get a third.
My question is how yo plan on teching to carriers and DTs while having a substantial ground army to hold off a zerg who throws just as much money at killing you as you do in saturating your expansion and teching to tier 3 in two completely perpendicular tech paths. The answer is that you don't rush for it, but you already have ended up in a comfortable enough position where you can get to it; but by no means is getting to it a means to an end.
If the zerg never attacks, or is just held down so much by the phoenix play that you basically won with phoenix, how does that let the carrier even enter the picture? Basically if you pull off the prerequisites for this build, you've already won, and carrier's just a spice to the mix.
If the zerg doesn't scout, and lets you get to tier 3 AND get even bases, why do we even need to speculate on a unit composition; you've already won.
Same thing for Zerg, if they get to tier 3 And get an economy lead... I'd say it's safe to say they're in a pretty good position.
There's SO much money being thrown at tech here, I'd say that you're very fragile, as much as you'd like to tote the cannons that keep you alive, you're short on forcefield, and a well-timed baneling/roach/queen all-in or drop would probably kill you. Not that that's popular right now, but it's something I've been working on, and I've found decent success with it. (also frustrated how much you under-estimated well-controlled queens throughout your post)
What would you do to react to a roach/queen drop in your main, with re-enforcements of roach/ling at your front? Phoenix don't do didley squat to roaches; they can lift them, but it takes forever to kill one. Voidrays will definitely help you defend, but you'll still lose the ground war most-likely; also queens and voidrays are about on-par in terms of combat efficiency against eachother. (exception being that queens build faster and are substantially cheaper)
The phoenix opening's strong, no matter what you tech to; logically if you stick to 1 tech path and you have good synergy with what you invest in, coming from a position of strength, is it any wonder that you win games?
It's not a fast tech to carriers, you get your fleet beacon and dark shrine when your 3rd is saturated, and DT's are easily accessible since you get a twilight council to further your upgrades. Also, it's not like it's easy for zerg to scout with phoenix controlling the map, which is one of the strengths of this build. Well controlled queens are good and all but against 6-10 phoenix it doesn't matter how well you can control them if i just pick them up. I do feel like this build is weak to all in type of plays since you cut some of the sentrys, and I guess I'd just have to experience those all-ins to see how I would react. Against the all in you described, wouldn't it be obvious what your intention is if i see a clump of overlords crossing the map? Giving my phoenix ample time to kill a couple of those overlords. Voidrays would clean that push up, phoenix can pick up the queens and then there's no anti air. You'd do some good damage probably but it sounds like a super all in strategy so the counter push would win the game I believe. But I'm not 100% sure. What's frustrating is the over-confidence and single-mindedness of this. Queens don't instantly die when you pick them up; for every ling you clean off of a xel naga tower or pluck from out front your base, you just lost a graviton beam (i.e. - I just saved a drone's life); and how do you plan on having a sufficient ground army, cannon coverage, 5-6 phoenix, and a void ray by the time I have overlord speed and drop, along with a handful of roaches? There's no counter push when I snipe all the tech in your main. Also: I bring ALL my overlords and have them spread creep. Your phoenix might pick off 1, maybe 2, but that just brings an element of chance: Some are empty decoys. The point isn't to end the game there; it's to reset your tech while I maintain an economic equilibrium with you; potentially crippling you if I clean up your ground forces without too many losses. (1 voidray may very well be able to kill ...mmm let's say 12 roaches?... but they'll do their fair share of damage and supply blockage before they die.) My approach to ZvP's really aggressive though, so if you hit tier 3 at all vs me, it was gg a LONG time ago.
5-6 Phoenix kill a queen pretty fast, and I don't go for lings on towers 1st, maybe when i leave your base the 1st time i'll grab em. If you're having overlord speed and drops then I should have atleast 3 voidrays out, also it seems like you're just leaving your base undefended doing that start which means i get free pickings at your drones.
I'm not saying this strategy would beat what you are sugggesting, but in theory it could. Plus if you have 12 roaches my smaller ground army of like 6 zealots, 2-3 stalkers and 4-5 sentrys an 1-3 voidrays can win if i just use my phoenix to pick up 6 of your 12 roaches and negate them from combat.
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6+ colossus become redundant
Made me lol :D.
Great post though defenetly gonna try this. I feel like corruptor might be abit too strong vs carriers for this strat to be effective trough a whole game. I'd imagine you need to transistion pure ground after your carriers get steamrolled. Also, if you dont get any aoe damage, hydras are going to become very powerful against ya aswell. When I do this build, I'll tech to tempelar, blink and charge, get out alot of gateways, and push out after so that i can reinforce quick and take out any corruptor heavy army should my first army lose.
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On March 18 2011 18:01 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 17:52 DeCiBle wrote:On March 18 2011 17:40 Hierarch wrote:On March 18 2011 17:28 DeCiBle wrote:
In theorycrafting the strengths of this build and it's weaknesses, IMO the people in this thread have to stop theorycrafting unit compositions, and remember that there's timings involved.
Sure, mass voidray/carrier is strong... If I could get 3/3 hydra queen infester corrupter ultralisk, baneling I'd probably roll you too.
It's the getting there that bothers me.
The "deny his third and take your own" line killed it for me. If toss takes a 3rd, it's basically gg anyways, esp if you let toss tech and get a third.
My question is how yo plan on teching to carriers and DTs while having a substantial ground army to hold off a zerg who throws just as much money at killing you as you do in saturating your expansion and teching to tier 3 in two completely perpendicular tech paths. The answer is that you don't rush for it, but you already have ended up in a comfortable enough position where you can get to it; but by no means is getting to it a means to an end.
If the zerg never attacks, or is just held down so much by the phoenix play that you basically won with phoenix, how does that let the carrier even enter the picture? Basically if you pull off the prerequisites for this build, you've already won, and carrier's just a spice to the mix.
If the zerg doesn't scout, and lets you get to tier 3 AND get even bases, why do we even need to speculate on a unit composition; you've already won.
Same thing for Zerg, if they get to tier 3 And get an economy lead... I'd say it's safe to say they're in a pretty good position.
There's SO much money being thrown at tech here, I'd say that you're very fragile, as much as you'd like to tote the cannons that keep you alive, you're short on forcefield, and a well-timed baneling/roach/queen all-in or drop would probably kill you. Not that that's popular right now, but it's something I've been working on, and I've found decent success with it. (also frustrated how much you under-estimated well-controlled queens throughout your post)
What would you do to react to a roach/queen drop in your main, with re-enforcements of roach/ling at your front? Phoenix don't do didley squat to roaches; they can lift them, but it takes forever to kill one. Voidrays will definitely help you defend, but you'll still lose the ground war most-likely; also queens and voidrays are about on-par in terms of combat efficiency against eachother. (exception being that queens build faster and are substantially cheaper)
The phoenix opening's strong, no matter what you tech to; logically if you stick to 1 tech path and you have good synergy with what you invest in, coming from a position of strength, is it any wonder that you win games?
It's not a fast tech to carriers, you get your fleet beacon and dark shrine when your 3rd is saturated, and DT's are easily accessible since you get a twilight council to further your upgrades. Also, it's not like it's easy for zerg to scout with phoenix controlling the map, which is one of the strengths of this build. Well controlled queens are good and all but against 6-10 phoenix it doesn't matter how well you can control them if i just pick them up. I do feel like this build is weak to all in type of plays since you cut some of the sentrys, and I guess I'd just have to experience those all-ins to see how I would react. Against the all in you described, wouldn't it be obvious what your intention is if i see a clump of overlords crossing the map? Giving my phoenix ample time to kill a couple of those overlords. Voidrays would clean that push up, phoenix can pick up the queens and then there's no anti air. You'd do some good damage probably but it sounds like a super all in strategy so the counter push would win the game I believe. But I'm not 100% sure. What's frustrating is the over-confidence and single-mindedness of this. Queens don't instantly die when you pick them up; for every ling you clean off of a xel naga tower or pluck from out front your base, you just lost a graviton beam (i.e. - I just saved a drone's life); and how do you plan on having a sufficient ground army, cannon coverage, 5-6 phoenix, and a void ray by the time I have overlord speed and drop, along with a handful of roaches? There's no counter push when I snipe all the tech in your main. Also: I bring ALL my overlords and have them spread creep. Your phoenix might pick off 1, maybe 2, but that just brings an element of chance: Some are empty decoys. The point isn't to end the game there; it's to reset your tech while I maintain an economic equilibrium with you; potentially crippling you if I clean up your ground forces without too many losses. (1 voidray may very well be able to kill ...mmm let's say 12 roaches?... but they'll do their fair share of damage and supply blockage before they die.) My approach to ZvP's really aggressive though, so if you hit tier 3 at all vs me, it was gg a LONG time ago. 5-6 Phoenix kill a queen pretty fast, and I don't go for lings on towers 1st, maybe when i leave your base the 1st time i'll grab em. If you're having overlord speed and drops then I should have atleast 3 voidrays out, also it seems like you're just leaving your base undefended doing that start which means i get free pickings at your drones. I'm not saying this strategy would beat what you are sugggesting, but in theory it could. Plus if you have 12 roaches my smaller ground army of like 6 zealots, 2-3 stalkers and 4-5 sentrys an 1-3 voidrays can win if i just use my phoenix to pick up 6 of your 12 roaches and negate them from combat.
i agree with decible man, while you have 5-6 phoenix a GOOD zerg will have 4 queens 2 on the way and possibly hydras.
also with 2 of those guys in the replays they take their 2nd even 3rd REALLY late, a lot of good zergs will go 15 hatch the gas then pool even.
If im playing a toss and im not getting 4 gated, im teching to lair and putting a overseer at every base and 1 over my army plus a hydra den and usually a extra queen per base, i dont think ull be sneaking into any bases with a dt that way. on top of that when i dont see a giant army when i poke with my lings, im throwing up a nydus instant.
I feel like it would work better then the usual death ball which is beat with just corruptors, roach and hydra but far from good enough for top level game play
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I think the entire point of this thread is trying to argue that phoenix harass can carry you into carrier play vs Zerg. I'm just not sure that's true unless your opponent was one who doesn't know how to react to/is caught completely off guard by Phoenix harass. A korean zerg would just roll you over with ling/roach while you were trying to tech.
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On March 18 2011 18:29 darkscream wrote:
I think the entire point of this thread is trying to argue that phoenix harass can carry you into carrier play vs Zerg. I'm just not sure that's true unless your opponent was one who doesn't know how to react to/is caught completely off guard by Phoenix harass. A korean zerg would just roll you over with ling/roach while you were trying to tech.
Well, you need to react to your opponent. Imo, you should scout with your first phoenix, and if you see strong 2 base play, get out void rays. 2-3 void rays + canons in range of your probe line to defend lings running past your void rays will deal with ling roach 2 base all in.
It's not a blind build that works against anything, but if you scout you can adapt with it.
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I just had a nice game with this build, though I just went for 6 phoenix and then went straight to carriers, because he already had a hydra den up.
This build only worked, because I got a ton of damage done with the phoenix though (after scouting with a hallucinated phoenix.. maybe thats why he was caught offguard). After getting 4 carriers I immediatelly switched to full ground (mainly stalkers, some immortals).
So in my opinion this build only works if you do a significant amount of damage with the phoenix, are not close by ground and get a quick mothership aswell. The fast mothership actually is way more worth than the carriers are though.
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I still don't see the point of carriers being better then colossi..
Colossi are cheaper, do way more DPS (if they hit at least 2 units which they will 95% of the time) share upgrades with your ground units and are about as mobile as carriers (i'd rather have more speed and cliffwalking then flying).
Importantly colossi demolish hydra's and die to corruptors while carriers die to corruptors and are only decent against hydra's.
Overall there is just no point in making carriers instead of colossi, you need ground units anyway so focussing entirely on ground with a little air support just makes more sense. The composition still gets countered by mass corruptors...
What entirely makes colossi better then carriers is that you easy into them more easily as well. You can just go 1 robo + 1 bay colossi and be fine vs any hydra pushes, this build however will crumble to a good hydra push (on the third or in the main by drop) because 1 carrier doesn't do as well as 1 colossus vs hydra...
1 stargate into 1 robo colossi > 2 stargate into carriers all the time..
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What entirely makes colossi better then carriers is that you easy into them more easily as well. You can just go 1 robo + 1 bay colossi and be fine vs any hydra pushes, this build however will crumble to a good hydra push (on the third or in the main by drop) because 1 carrier doesn't do as well as 1 colossus vs hydra...
1 stargate into 1 robo colossi > 2 stargate into carriers all the time..
If you get Carriers off two base then you are obviously going to lose, you just cant support that. You will also die to Corruptors, you need Voidrays in the mix.
1Stargate 1Robo isn't quite the same as Pheonix, Voidrays and Carriers all share the same upgrades so as you progress, each upgrade you get is worth quite a bit.
With mass Carrier you can also attack with full DPS from a single point, mass Colossus eventually trips over each other and fights very inefficiently because of that, but Carriers can all be stacked onto a single point and attack very efficiently.
I think eventually the most optimum setup would be to include 3/3/3 Colossus into the mix as well, somewhere around 6~ would be the magic number, but this is an alternative and Carrier/Void is MUCH much stronger than Colossus/Voidray end game provided you have the economy to support it.
Engaging a late game 3/3/3 Carrier/Voidray army is very difficult. All your DPS can attack both air and ground with Carriers having great DPS, so if they get cold feet in an engagement then end up taking some serious damage.With Colossus/Voidray, too many of either one can be quite bad for you, it is quite easy to have too little Voidrays and end up with Corruptors taking out all the voids whilst even though your Colossus may have cleaned up the Hydra you are gonna lose them. Carriers don't share that problem, the only thing they need is a good economy.
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I don't get why mass upgraded hydras don't counter this.. Add roaches to tank zealots.
I think it will be easier for zerg to deal with this combo than with collosus cause your overall army dps isn't that insane and your hydras won't melt in seconds.
Hydra / corruptor and few roach is best way to fight this build.
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On March 18 2011 20:53 Alpina wrote:
I don't get why mass upgraded hydras don't counter this.. Add roaches to tank zealots.
I think it will be easier for zerg to deal with this combo than with collosus cause your overall army dps isn't that insane and your hydras won't melt in seconds.
Hydra / corruptor and few roach is best way to fight this build.
Grab a unit tester and try it out for yourself. Match Air upgrade if you want (I'm usually a head in upgrades since I start early and double core). If you think mass hydra counters Carriers then you will be in for a shock 
Also, Carrier/Voidray does better vs Corruptor/Hydra than pure Carrier or pure Voidray.
Anyway, I think people are getting the wrong idea with this. I don't think the OP intended (ever) for this type of play to be better than regular Colossus/Gateway or Colossus/Void, just DIFFERENT.
No one has done this before so it isn't as refined as Void/Colossus or Colossus/Gateway. But it isn't so terrible that you will lose every time, it actually works quite decently, maybe the more it is used the quicker Zerg fill find a way to crush it, but until then just have some fun with non-Colossus play that allows you to be aggressive.
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I dont think you can defeat a zergling/baneling/muta composition with this effectively :/
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EPT
