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On March 19 2011 05:40 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote:
A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
So this strategy is only for lower level play and can only be discussed by lower levels? And your handful of replays where you simply outplay your opponent are proof that it's uncounterable by hydras? The unit that... is supposed to destroy gateway and air compositions? Well... I guess your strategy is unstoppable then, good job.
Hydras fail against air. Test it. This thread has already discussed it. Also, you're trying to compare a 3000 diamond player against a korean player. Who wins? derp.
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On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote:
A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
Okay, so basically you're saying that people who don't play the game a lot and don't know what they are talking about should be the ones to expand build horizons.
Also you're admitting that a good player would defeat this strategy, a good player wouldn't use this strategy.
Which brings us back to: Team Liquid strat forums have so many bad posts with so many bad builds. The reason we don't see carriers as an end-game unit from any serious player is because they aren't very good. You can theorycraft as much zealot and phoenix harass as you like, I've never lost to carriers on the ladder even on maps which favor them heavily, and I'm nobody. You can bet your last vespene that if it were viable, top players would do it.
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Oh my God, it's the stove! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173369
:p
All joking aside though, I have a couple questions to ask you coming from a Zerg perspective:
It seems that phoenix play will prompt the Zerg to make spore crawlers, so how effective is your DT harass, as the Zerg will most likely have detection up?
how would this deal with infestor/hydra play? It seems a well-placed FG can put a serious dent in your phoenix numbers if there are hydra around, same thing with the interceptors.
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On March 19 2011 05:43 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote:
A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
Okay, so basically you're saying that people who don't play the game a lot and don't know what they are talking about should be the ones to expand build horizons. Also you're admitting that a good player would defeat this strategy, a good player wouldn't use this strategy. Which brings us back to: Team Liquid strat forums have so many bad posts with so many bad builds. The reason we don't see carriers as an end-game unit from any serious player is because they aren't very good. You can theorycraft as much zealot and phoenix harass as you like, I've never lost to carriers on the ladder even on maps which favor them heavily, and I'm nobody. You can bet your last vespene that if it were viable, top players would do it.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 18 2011 15:30 darkscream wrote:
I play zerg and I found protoss using this strategy on Shakuras Plateau a lot. I learned a few things.
A) If they don't have any phoenix with their carriers, A good ball of muta-corruptor rapes them. Corruptors focus fire/corruption the carriers, mutalisks a-move and fight the interceptors (mutalisks destroy interceptors).
B) Neural Parasite. If I have more infestors than you have carriers and void rays, I win, especially if you make a mothership because I will make that baby mine. Fungal growth also does funny things to phoenix and to interceptors.
C) Phoenix Harass isn't really that annoying in the early game, I skip hydras and go straight to corruptors usually. So by making Phoenix you already made me build the counter to your endgame.
D) Also, by the sounds of things you skip robo bay and don't get any detection, so I would likely use burrowed units to harass you as much as I could. In fact if I scout a fleet beacon, I might just max with roaches and do a 300-food push on you.
That's how I've reacted to carrier builds the times i've encountered them. This might be really strong on a map which ends up being close by air but even then, Carriers really need a "critical mass" before they are scary.
A) If a protoss sees mutalisks, that tells the protoss to go phoenixes.
B) No.
C) It's not annoying because you're probably not that high in the ladder. You don't care about a mineral line being wiped out. Also, a spire takes 100 seconds. If phoenixes scout this, we can assume a) lol mutas or b) corrupters. As soon as I see corrupters, I instantly throw up more gates (2 bases --> 6 gates total, 3 bases --> 12 gates total) and go murder you. Going pure zerg air is not the same as going pure toss air.
D) If you scout, you won't have problems. If you're going to 300 food push, you're going to need a lot of bases, which is the goal of this protoss build.
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On March 19 2011 02:55 LilClinkin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 01:23 mamuto wrote:
OP, thank you so much for posting this, I started thinking air vs. zerg again after doing deathball for so long and there you go with this beautiful post.
A few tips and tricks I came up with, augmenting your strategy a touch:
+1 air upgrade means your phoenix are doing 11x2 damage vs light. Larva has 25 hp and 10 armor. See where im going with this? 2 damage per phoenix equals dead larva very very quickly. 13-14 phoenix killing one larva in ~1.1 seconds? 5 - 6 seconds and all that hard work the zerg put in to injecting/macro is gone. Why protoss don't do this already I don't know. I know I am going to do this every game now...
It takes 20 volleys to kill an overlord, ~23 volleys to kill a queen, and about 25 to kill an overseer.
I'm thinking going heavy heavy phoenix (like 25 to 30) to one shot the above mentioned units.
-One shotting overlords that might be all bundled together in the main is brutal.
-One shotting queens completely shuts down Zerg's macro. If there is no other AA around, why not pick up the larva and kill that off too, two at a time?
-One shotting overseers not only lowers pop cap but if you have DTs on the field it makes them that much stronger.
25-30 phoenix will completely prevent muta's. This isn't even debatable, it'd be pure suicide. 120hp, light, takes longer to build than a chrono'd phoenix?
Which brings me to a good point, a chronoboosted phoenix comes out in 25 seconds. Thats marine build time. That is insane. to get 30 of them out of two stargates would take a little over 6 minutes, so probably right around the 12-13 minute mark. 30 graviton beams? That shuts down any push the zerg will throw at you. You cannoned your third and they attacked? Lift EVERYTHING in range of cannons and laugh.
Hydra's are light and have 80 hp. lift one, and 4 phoenix each do 20 damage to it. So something like 30 phoenix could instantly snipe 6 hydra's if your micro can handle that.
One last point, OP, instead of getting +1 ground attack right away, get shields +1. Phoenix are all about dat harass and you usually fly off when shields get depleted. +1 to that will increase the potency of harass and applies to both ground and air AND cannons. get +1 attack after that.
I know some of this might be common sense and already known and whatnot, but I want you all to think about how awesome Phoenix really are, especially at that magic number of 25+
I just realized this is sounding like zerg's muta/ling strat. Awesome.
edit: holy shit just realized hallucination can be useful as well. Hallucinate yourself 6-7 extra phoenix, collossi, archons... With no detection, awesome meat shields. With those 6 sentries sitting at 200/200 energy, this is excellent. Why kill larva when there are drones right next to the hatchery collecting minerals?
Because killing three larva is the equivalent to killing three roaches/hydras/corruptors/mutas/ultras/drones. Larva are a resource pinch point, just like minerals. Though you could go after the Zerg's income, you could just as easily go after his production, and let his income go to waste. It'd kind of be like if Phoenix could pick up and snipe barracks.
Obviously, picking off as many drones -and- larva as you can is a good idea, but I don't see a reason to prioritize one over the other.
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On March 19 2011 03:03 Sewi wrote:I tried a build very similar to this a few times at around 3000Masters level. It doesnt work very often because if Zerg gets a lot of Hydras, they shoot down the interceptors too quickly. You could go for HTs with Carriers but than you lose your mobility. Warpprism dont work because they die as soon as a corruptor gets into its vision  Anyways, if you play at lower levels were Zergs dont scout your base at proper timings, you can get a lot of wins with builds like that. GL HF experimenting with it 
Thanks! I hope others will experiment with it as well so I can get some feedback.
Here's a thought though, if you keep zergs creep in check, how are they going to engage you with mass hydra? If they try ff's + the range of carriers would just shred them, or you can vortex half of them and kill part of them and then re engage, it's not like zerg can stream hydras across the map since they are so slow.
If Zerg doesn't attack with all those hydras, your army just becomes exponentially better as you start getting extra resources and can tech to HT and use them defensively and then push once you've killed their army. It seems intuitivethat mass hydra does really well against carriers, butthey do mediocre at best since they just die so fast. I really hope some higher protoss players try this to reinforce my thoughts, or to show me how Hydras will work against this, as I can only speak from experience.
On March 19 2011 05:40 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote:
A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
So this strategy is only for lower level play and can only be discussed by lower levels? And your handful of replays where you simply outplay your opponent are proof that it's uncounterable by hydras? The unit that... is supposed to destroy gateway and air compositions? Well... I guess your strategy is unstoppable then, good job. Edit: Carrier strats are simply not viable in the current game/meta-game. I'm not even entirely sure they're broken, if mech ever becomes mainstream I could see carriers coming back or something, I just find it silly to claim that carrier/gateway isn't hard countered by hydra/roach/ling corrupter/roach, infestors, etc. And I open stargate in about 50% of the games I play...
No my point was that it's highly unproven at high levels, and comparing me using this strategy against a korean zerg would be like comparing a recreational basketball team with an NBA team. The rec team may have amazing plays drawn up, but obviously an NBA team will beat them anyway. However if you gave those plays to another NBA team then it would be a different story.
If you want to use a korean zerg as an example you would need to use an equivalent protoss. Go test it for yourself, Hydras do not beat carriers. As much as it logically makes sense that they should, they do not. I only have a handful of replays because I wasn't laddering a lot, I was smoothing the build order and transitions out in customs with one of my friends.
You say you open stargate 50% of the time, go double stargate and try this strategy, it sounds like you've never built carriers like I'm suggesting based that they logically would get countered. Voidray/carrier/zealot/stalker and the handful of sentrys you have will beat roach/hydra/ling.
On March 19 2011 05:43 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote:
A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
Okay, so basically you're saying that people who don't play the game a lot and don't know what they are talking about should be the ones to expand build horizons. Also you're admitting that a good player would defeat this strategy, a good player wouldn't use this strategy. Which brings us back to: Team Liquid strat forums have so many bad posts with so many bad builds. The reason we don't see carriers as an end-game unit from any serious player is because they aren't very good. You can theorycraft as much zealot and phoenix harass as you like, I've never lost to carriers on the ladder even on maps which favor them heavily, and I'm nobody. You can bet your last vespene that if it were viable, top players would do it.
See my NBA analogy, you can't compare me to a korean zerg, I obviously don't have the mechanics, timing sense, game knowledge of a pro. Which is why I'm suggesting people who do have those qualities or who are better than me to try this a good amount and give me feedback.
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How would you deal with infestors when using this build? if you overmake phoenixes you can lose them all quite easily to a few fungals + hydra or corrupter. And once carriers hit you can either fungal interceptors or NP the carriers themselves. I think infestor/corrupter/hydra could make this strat challenging to use, though it'd be a fun as hell game to watch.
EDIT: not to mention the fact that if you fungal the phoenixes you can suddenly pump a round of mutas and do some sick harass while they rebuild, and mutas are pretty good against VRs too.
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On March 19 2011 03:01 junemermaid wrote:
Hmmm... zerg doesn't have to go hydras. Corruptors are very good against 2 out of the 3 stargate units that you'll be producing. Phoenix and carrier both take double penalties for their attack and thus can never really scale into late game. Coupled with the fact that corruptors have a base of two armor, both units are doing pitiful damage to corruptors.
Also, sling/bling would do well versus whatever your ground unit composition since there wouldn't be many sentries or stalkers, and the only unit that could kill them at a reasonable rate would be carriers.
Hydras is NOT the correct response nor is it forced.
Corrupters have 1 base armor I think? I could be wrong though, let me go check
Edit: Oh wow, you're right they have 2 base armor, this makes me think if I see more corrupters than a hydra response I should make more voidrays, thanks for the info.
On March 19 2011 06:07 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 06:04 Hierarch wrote:On March 19 2011 03:01 junemermaid wrote:
Hmmm... zerg doesn't have to go hydras. Corruptors are very good against 2 out of the 3 stargate units that you'll be producing. Phoenix and carrier both take double penalties for their attack and thus can never really scale into late game. Coupled with the fact that corruptors have a base of two armor, both units are doing pitiful damage to corruptors.
Also, sling/bling would do well versus whatever your ground unit composition since there wouldn't be many sentries or stalkers, and the only unit that could kill them at a reasonable rate would be carriers.
Hydras is NOT the correct response nor is it forced. Corrupters have 1 base armor I think? I could be wrong though, let me go check 2
Ya, just went and checked
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On March 19 2011 06:04 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 03:01 junemermaid wrote:
Hmmm... zerg doesn't have to go hydras. Corruptors are very good against 2 out of the 3 stargate units that you'll be producing. Phoenix and carrier both take double penalties for their attack and thus can never really scale into late game. Coupled with the fact that corruptors have a base of two armor, both units are doing pitiful damage to corruptors.
Also, sling/bling would do well versus whatever your ground unit composition since there wouldn't be many sentries or stalkers, and the only unit that could kill them at a reasonable rate would be carriers.
Hydras is NOT the correct response nor is it forced. Corrupters have 1 base armor I think? I could be wrong though, let me go check
2
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On March 19 2011 05:46 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Oh my God, it's the stove! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173369:p All joking aside though, I have a couple questions to ask you coming from a Zerg perspective: It seems that phoenix play will prompt the Zerg to make spore crawlers, so how effective is your DT harass, as the Zerg will most likely have detection up? how would this deal with infestor/hydra play? It seems a well-placed FG can put a serious dent in your phoenix numbers if there are hydra around, same thing with the interceptors.
I thought about that, as it seems counter intuitive to run DT's into spores, but sending 1-2 to a couple later expansions while engaging their main army leaves just a queen and drones to fight a DT or two and the DT will kill the queen and then just kill drones, just because it is detected doesn't mean it can't do damage. This will force spine crawlers also which just adds more static defense at the cost of 2-4 DT's, also DT's can patrol bases that haven't been taken by zerg and kill drones attempting to build there, delaying expos.
Infester/Hydra seems interesting, i never thought about FG, that would definitely be a good idea vs phoenix since they are so fast and can run. I haven't seen FG vs interecepters, how does it work? Do the intercepters just sit there and not shoot? Or do they sit there and shoot? If it's the former then FG could be amazing vs this.
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protoss should really make use of sentries, even if its just for guardian shield, its a huge deal, if you could fit them in somewhere like 2-3 early game, it would go a long way.
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On March 19 2011 05:55 Staboteur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 02:55 LilClinkin wrote:On March 19 2011 01:23 mamuto wrote:
OP, thank you so much for posting this, I started thinking air vs. zerg again after doing deathball for so long and there you go with this beautiful post.
A few tips and tricks I came up with, augmenting your strategy a touch:
+1 air upgrade means your phoenix are doing 11x2 damage vs light. Larva has 25 hp and 10 armor. See where im going with this? 2 damage per phoenix equals dead larva very very quickly. 13-14 phoenix killing one larva in ~1.1 seconds? 5 - 6 seconds and all that hard work the zerg put in to injecting/macro is gone. Why protoss don't do this already I don't know. I know I am going to do this every game now...
It takes 20 volleys to kill an overlord, ~23 volleys to kill a queen, and about 25 to kill an overseer.
I'm thinking going heavy heavy phoenix (like 25 to 30) to one shot the above mentioned units.
-One shotting overlords that might be all bundled together in the main is brutal.
-One shotting queens completely shuts down Zerg's macro. If there is no other AA around, why not pick up the larva and kill that off too, two at a time?
-One shotting overseers not only lowers pop cap but if you have DTs on the field it makes them that much stronger.
25-30 phoenix will completely prevent muta's. This isn't even debatable, it'd be pure suicide. 120hp, light, takes longer to build than a chrono'd phoenix?
Which brings me to a good point, a chronoboosted phoenix comes out in 25 seconds. Thats marine build time. That is insane. to get 30 of them out of two stargates would take a little over 6 minutes, so probably right around the 12-13 minute mark. 30 graviton beams? That shuts down any push the zerg will throw at you. You cannoned your third and they attacked? Lift EVERYTHING in range of cannons and laugh.
Hydra's are light and have 80 hp. lift one, and 4 phoenix each do 20 damage to it. So something like 30 phoenix could instantly snipe 6 hydra's if your micro can handle that.
One last point, OP, instead of getting +1 ground attack right away, get shields +1. Phoenix are all about dat harass and you usually fly off when shields get depleted. +1 to that will increase the potency of harass and applies to both ground and air AND cannons. get +1 attack after that.
I know some of this might be common sense and already known and whatnot, but I want you all to think about how awesome Phoenix really are, especially at that magic number of 25+
I just realized this is sounding like zerg's muta/ling strat. Awesome.
edit: holy shit just realized hallucination can be useful as well. Hallucinate yourself 6-7 extra phoenix, collossi, archons... With no detection, awesome meat shields. With those 6 sentries sitting at 200/200 energy, this is excellent. Why kill larva when there are drones right next to the hatchery collecting minerals? Because killing three larva is the equivalent to killing three roaches/hydras/corruptors/mutas/ultras/drones. Larva are a resource pinch point, just like minerals. Though you could go after the Zerg's income, you could just as easily go after his production, and let his income go to waste. It'd kind of be like if Phoenix could pick up and snipe barracks. Obviously, picking off as many drones -and- larva as you can is a good idea, but I don't see a reason to prioritize one over the other.
This is just an awesome idea lol, I'll have to experiment with it, I honestly didn't even know you could lift larva, lifting a queen at the main and then quickly killing all the larva could definitely stunt zerg's production. Also good idea on getting +1 shields instead of ground armor, since it synergizes with a lot more of my build, thanks for the input, I will definitely try more phoenixes
On March 19 2011 06:21 Warrice wrote:
protoss should really make use of sentries, even if its just for guardian shield, its a huge deal, if you could fit them in somewhere like 2-3 early game, it would go a long way.
I get about 4-6 early game for defensive purposes and they usually get 200/200 energy when the battles come, I usually throw up 2 guardian shields to cover most of my army and then i use ff's to help in the battle.
On March 19 2011 06:04 SilverJohnny wrote:
How would you deal with infestors when using this build? if you overmake phoenixes you can lose them all quite easily to a few fungals + hydra or corrupter. And once carriers hit you can either fungal interceptors or NP the carriers themselves. I think infestor/corrupter/hydra could make this strat challenging to use, though it'd be a fun as hell game to watch.
EDIT: not to mention the fact that if you fungal the phoenixes you can suddenly pump a round of mutas and do some sick harass while they rebuild, and mutas are pretty good against VRs too.
Ya, infester play sounds like it could be a real thorn in the side of this build, although you'd need to keep an eye on them cause they become prime targets to lift and snipe by phoenix fly by's, I guess I'll suggest it to my friend for when we play our customs, definitely something to keep in mind. Thanks!
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I love the idea but heres why it can't work:
1) You'll simply die to a roach attack to your natural. Going zealot heavy with a few sentries won't do much, even if the zerg is polite enough to wait for your cannons to finish before he attacks you. Lets not even discuss the type of carnage that would follow from a high economy ling/baneling attack.
2) There's this unit called the corruptor. Its pretty good against everything you're making. Zerg doesn't have to go Hydra simply because you showed up with some phoenixes and a void ray. In fact many zergs will skip hydra completely since they expect you to follow up with colossus - roach/corruptor becomes a serious problem.
3) Harassing with DT and phoenix makes no sense. Make unit that forces spore crawlers ---> make cloaked units for harass? wut?
4) While you may be able to delay the 3rd, you certainly will not be able to deny it. Assuming that Zerg will let you get your third up uncontested doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
5) Even if Z does go hydra and plays into your hands, you are still relying on him to not scout your fleet beacon. If he does he will sure make a spire and some corruptors, in which case I gotta ask again... what are you going to do? They are amazing against literally everything you're making.
6) You will not have the economy to make void rays *and carriers*. If Z is not afk he'll make a ton of corruptors and roaches before you could conceivably build up a critical mass of voids. He can produce 4-12 at a time while you can produce 2 at a time. He'll be on 6-8 gas while you're on 4. The math is not in your favour.
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On March 18 2011 14:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Mutas are actually extremely good against Phoenix as long as there are a decent number of them. Definitely not worth dismissing that.
Good build, though. I've long thought that Carriers were incredibly underused, especially given the huge delays that Phoenix builds can cause in Zerg's ability to mass and push out.
What do you mean lol? Phoenix are faster than mutas AND have higher range, I killed 20-30 mutas with 4-6 phoenix, of course it took most of my attention, but thats besides the point. I agree carriers are way underutilized vs Zerg, against terran rines just lol at interceptors though....
This build seems really good, I have been tweaking with a build that just powers out pure phoenix of fast 2 stargate vs Terran, toss air is just sooo good. You will usually have so many excess minerals you can cannon hard and build a shit ton of cannons.
Fastest Phoenix build I could do with a build order optimizer while still playing it reasonably safe.
At then end of this build you have about 450 minerals meaning you can probably squeak in some more gateways and zealots and cannons and a forge.
+ Show Spoiler +
9 Pylon
13 Assimilator
14 Gateway
14 Move Probe To Gas
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
16 Gateway
16 Move Probe To Gas
17 Move Probe To Gas
17 Cybernetics Core
18 Move Probe To Gas
18 Zealot
21 Pylon
21 Move Probe To Gas
21 Move Probe To Gas
22 Sentry
24 Chrono Gateway
25 Chrono Gateway
25 Sentry
27 Chrono Gateway
28 Stalker
30 Stalker
33 Chrono Gateway
33 Chrono Gateway
33 Move Probe To Gas
33 Pylon
34 Air Weapons 1
36 Chrono Nexus
38 Stargate
39 Chrono Nexus
39 Stargate
39 Pylon
40 Nexus
41 Pylon
42 Phoenix
45 Phoenix
48 Phoenix
50 Chrono Stargate
51 Chrono Stargate
7:55.23 game time 449Minerals 89Gas 51/ 58 Supply
Income: 856M 228G
Buildings: 1 Nexus 2 Assimilator 6 Pylon 2 Gateway 1 Cybernetics Core 2 Stargate
Units: 34 Probe 1 Zealot 2 Stalker 2 Sentry 3 Phoenix
Upgrades: Air Weapons 1
Courtesy of: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168348
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On March 19 2011 06:28 Reason.SC2 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I love the idea but heres why it can't work:
1) You'll simply die to a roach attack to your natural. Going zealot heavy with a few sentries won't do much, even if the zerg is polite enough to wait for your cannons to finish before he attacks you. Lets not even discuss the type of carnage that would follow from a high economy ling/baneling attack.
2) There's this unit called the corruptor. Its pretty good against everything you're making. Zerg doesn't have to go Hydra simply because you showed up with some phoenixes and a void ray. In fact many zergs will skip hydra completely since they expect you to follow up with colossus - roach/corruptor becomes a serious problem.
3) Harassing with DT and phoenix makes no sense. Make unit that forces spore crawlers ---> make cloaked units for harass? wut?
4) While you may be able to delay the 3rd, you certainly will not be able to deny it. Assuming that Zerg will let you get your third up uncontested doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
5) Even if Z does go hydra and plays into your hands, you are still relying on him to not scout your fleet beacon. If he does he will sure make a spire and some corruptors, in which case I gotta ask again... what are you going to do? They are amazing against literally everything you're making.
6) You will not have the economy to make void rays *and carriers*. If Z is not afk he'll make a ton of corruptors and roaches before you could conceivably build up a critical mass of voids. He can produce 4-12 at a time while you can produce 2 at a time. He'll be on 6-8 gas while you're on 4. The math is not in your favour.
1) I'll see roaches coming across the map, and I make my canons shortly after my forge is done since this build has extra minerals it isn't a problem to build them. Also zealot/sentry with 2-3 stalkers and my 1 voidray I will have + the 3-4 phoenix lifting roaches can hold an early roach push.
How high of an economy would a ling/bling attack have after losing half the drones, sure you'd probably kill my natural, but the counter of 3-4 voids/phoenix and some zealot/stalker would kill you. (In Theory, I haven't had experience vs ling/bling)
2) Corrupters are horrendous against voidrays, and if you skip hydras I can just do a gateway/voidray push and kill you. Carriers aren't mandatory, it's just a transition.
3) Just because a DT is detected doesn't mean it can't do damage, when it comes to 4th and 5th base times, I'll have DT's patroling the spots to kill drones who would be making hatchery's and then later I can send 2 to those expos and kill the queen and just kill drones, which forces spine crawlers also. Another nice reason to have access to DT's is that Archons are amazing against zerg
4) This is true, but delaying it is what I'm intending, keeping the zerg on even timed bases helps tremendously, and when I put my 3rd up I put like 5-6 canons to zone one area since I have a lot of extra minerals and canons at that time are better than more zealots. But I agree that zerg won't let me have a 3rd base easily.
5) If I see mass corrupter, I just stop carrier production and pump voidrays, the fleet beacon also allows for one other key component other than making carriers, it allows me to make a mothership and to continue my air upgrades.
6) Zerg will not have 6-8 vs my 4 gas he'll have 6-8 vs my 6 gas, also 2 chronoboosted stargates constantly making voidrays can get out of hand, it's not hard to keep my voidrays alive and then transition into adding a few carriers (which I probably wouldn't do, since voidrays beat corrupters and roaches). It's not that easy to mass roach/corrupter while making spores, extra queens and replacing drones from phoenix.
I understand your points, but the main point is you don't have to make carriers, in a colossus strategy you must make colossus or you die, in this strategy you can survive even if you don't make carriers. They just are the end game unit because when they get to the late game and you can get a critical mass of highly upgraded carrier/voidray it becomes really hard for the zerg to stop.
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So upon seeing this thread, I became inspired to try a little bit of air play in my PvZ.
Here's my first go at it. I didn't feel comfortable doing a 100% change in play just because I'm not sure how well it would work, so you will see some colossus and blink stalkers etc.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-196670.jpg)
I open with a 3gate expand with phoenix's to scout/harass and eventually get void rays and then carriers once I get 3 bases.
I didn't go hardcore into the air play, but I continued to use it throughout the game. I found that the carriers seem to be more effective than I had perceived.
Take it for what it's worth. Some more discussion for what it may be like used at a more top level of play.
Both players are 3200+ Masters.
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i stopped reading after 3gate expand w/ less sentries about half way thru:
a roach sling timing push or roach sling all-in would rape this.
no doubt about it, ESPECIALLY with less sentries than a normal 3gate expand, no stalkers
now conversely, a roach sling allin or timing push can be held off w/ sentries[well placed FF] and cannons only but I stopped reading to see how your minerals are allocated and thus even be viable in the build.
edit: and to me the only reason i think the carriers are effective is because phoenixes do so much damage and give complete map control--both air and ground, thus allowing you to safely get carriers which honestly aren't even that strong but when a zerg is battered so much they are.
yes, their interceptors attack 2x for a base of 5dmg or w/e and upgs help A LOT but still you need a critical mass and a large number of hydras can snipe them.
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On March 19 2011 06:56 majestouch wrote:
i stopped reading after 3gate expand w/ less sentries about half way thru:
a roach sling timing push or roach sling all-in would rape this.
no doubt about it, ESPECIALLY with less sentries than a normal 3gate expand, no stalkers
now conversely, a roach sling allin or timing push can be held off w/ sentries[well placed FF] and cannons only but I stopped reading to see how your minerals are allocated and thus even be viable in the build.
Watch the replay I posted. You'll be intrigued.
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On March 19 2011 06:56 majestouch wrote:
i stopped reading after 3gate expand w/ less sentries about half way thru:
a roach sling timing push or roach sling all-in would rape this.
no doubt about it, ESPECIALLY with less sentries than a normal 3gate expand, no stalkers
now conversely, a roach sling allin or timing push can be held off w/ sentries[well placed FF] and cannons only but I stopped reading to see how your minerals are allocated and thus even be viable in the build.
a) You scout for an all-in.
b) You put up defenses to defend the all-in.
c) You win because he all-ined.
It's seriously that simple, just get up defenses and more sentries to defend (8 max) if you feel unsafe. If the choke is fairly small (such as shattered temple, assuming you are using sim-city), you can easily hold pushes with less sentries.
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On March 19 2011 05:43 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 05:40 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:On March 19 2011 05:17 Hierarch wrote:
A korean zerg also doesn't have to worry about LSATS and Law school, it's a poor example to compare a 3000 point diamond player who is just trying to expand the protoss build horizons to a Korean who plays this game for a living.
So this strategy is only for lower level play and can only be discussed by lower levels? And your handful of replays where you simply outplay your opponent are proof that it's uncounterable by hydras? The unit that... is supposed to destroy gateway and air compositions? Well... I guess your strategy is unstoppable then, good job. Hydras fail against air. Test it. This thread has already discussed it. Also, you're trying to compare a 3000 diamond player against a korean player. Who wins? derp.
whats the point of learning//learning to execute a build that is only capable on lower levels, you are basically telling yourself "hey i'll never be masters so i'll just pick up on gimmicky builds that only work on lower levels". to me, that seems like a colossal waste of time.
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EPT
