EPTAs a further observation, no unit in this build hard counters Hydras like Collosi do.
I'm sure I could be thwarted by another clever thinker out there, but hey, I'm just thinking out loud...er...out internet.
"Carrier Has Arrived" Refreshing New PvZ Strategy - Page 6
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Xylarthen
United States137 Posts
As a further observation, no unit in this build hard counters Hydras like Collosi do. I'm sure I could be thwarted by another clever thinker out there, but hey, I'm just thinking out loud...er...out internet. | ||
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scatmango2
United States408 Posts
Edit: Phoenix are not as good as people think they are vs zerg (at least at high level play). | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On March 19 2011 07:28 scatmango2 wrote: Too much theorycrafting going on in this thread. Hydra/roach drop into the protoss base = gg. Sorry but a few Phoenix will not stop 4-5 overlords full of Hydras from reaching their destination. I'm a 4070 rated Master Protoss on the EU server and I can tell you this will not work at high level on any map except for Delta Quadrant. It works on Delta Quadrant because you can turtle on 2 bases 100% safely because the choke into your main can be easily Force Fielded. I know it works because I played this style about 3 months ago. Except you go Mothership/Void Ray/Carrier/ Zealot. Edit: Phoenix are not as good as people think they are vs zerg (at least at high level play). You're theory-crafting. This uses a 3 gate sentry expo, not a forge fe, which means you can defend the drops by paying attention. | ||
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Gemini_19
United States1257 Posts
On March 19 2011 07:28 scatmango2 wrote: Too much theorycrafting going on in this thread. Hydra/roach drop into the protoss base = gg. Sorry but a few Phoenix will not stop 4-5 overlords full of Hydras from reaching their destination. I'm a 4070 rated Master Protoss on the EU server and I can tell you this will not work at high level on any map except for Delta Quadrant. It works on Delta Quadrant because you can turtle on 2 bases 100% safely because the choke into your main can be easily Force Fielded. I know it works because I played this style about 3 months ago. Except you go Mothership/Void Ray/Carrier/ Zealot. Edit: Phoenix are not as good as people think they are vs zerg (at least at high level play). You make it sound like you have no units but air... There is such a thing called adaptability, you of all people should know this Random 4070 Master EU player. | ||
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scatmango2
United States408 Posts
Can you point out where I said forge fast expand? You act as if arguing with me with your theory-crafting some how makes it more viable... LOL. The proof is in the pudding that you don't see this in pro-play because IT DOES NOT WORK. | ||
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Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
On March 19 2011 07:33 scatmango2 wrote: You're theory-crafting. This uses a 3 gate sentry expo, not a forge fe, which means you can defend the drops by paying attention. Can you point out where I said forge fast expand? You act as if arguing with me with your theory-crafting some how makes it more viable... LOL. The proof is in the pudding that you don't see this in pro-play because IT DOES NOT WORK. I have yet to see a single person on the internet use this phrase correctly. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" means that something must be experienced for its quality to be properly appreciated. What you stated is simply an argument from authority. </melvin> | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 19 2011 06:59 iChau wrote: a) You scout for an all-in. b) You put up defenses to defend the all-in. c) You win because he all-ined. It's seriously that simple, just get up defenses and more sentries to defend (8 max) if you feel unsafe. If the choke is fairly small (such as shattered temple, assuming you are using sim-city), you can easily hold pushes with less sentries. Exactly, and you will have the added benefit of a couple voidrays On March 19 2011 06:56 majestouch wrote: i stopped reading after 3gate expand w/ less sentries about half way thru: a roach sling timing push or roach sling all-in would rape this. no doubt about it, ESPECIALLY with less sentries than a normal 3gate expand, no stalkers now conversely, a roach sling allin or timing push can be held off w/ sentries[well placed FF] and cannons only but I stopped reading to see how your minerals are allocated and thus even be viable in the build. edit: and to me the only reason i think the carriers are effective is because phoenixes do so much damage and give complete map control--both air and ground, thus allowing you to safely get carriers which honestly aren't even that strong but when a zerg is battered so much they are. yes, their interceptors attack 2x for a base of 5dmg or w/e and upgs help A LOT but still you need a critical mass and a large number of hydras can snipe them. Less as in 2-3 less, which is 200-300 gas. A roach/ling all-in would lose since you just need 1 voidray and ff's to delay and then 2 more voidrays would come and end the push since voids/canons/zealots and 2-3 stalkers would be able to defend the push. My minerals are allocated into zealots and canons it doesn't mean I never build stalkers, I build quite a few of them to be honest. Just when you're on 2 stargates and constantly getting upgrades zealots are easier to consistently fit in production cycles. Hydras off creep will never be able to snipe carriers, range 8 ends that chance ever, since to slither up they are so slow and if they are trying to slowly move up and hit carriers they are getting decimated by everything, especially zealots. On March 19 2011 06:49 Gemini_19 wrote: So upon seeing this thread, I became inspired to try a little bit of air play in my PvZ. Here's my first go at it. I didn't feel comfortable doing a 100% change in play just because I'm not sure how well it would work, so you will see some colossus and blink stalkers etc. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-196670.jpg) I open with a 3gate expand with phoenix's to scout/harass and eventually get void rays and then carriers once I get 3 bases. I didn't go hardcore into the air play, but I continued to use it throughout the game. I found that the carriers seem to be more effective than I had perceived. Take it for what it's worth. Some more discussion for what it may be like used at a more top level of play. Both players are 3200+ Masters. I also use blink stalkers in my air composition, but if you had stopped colossus, carrier production and gone like 3 stargate voidray you would have won since he started going corrupter/roach/ling. Also the 2nd forge and templar archives were wasted buildings I feel. Also when zerg was trying to push with roaches you could have lifted 3-4 of them with your idle phoenix and just gotten free kills. Another key point is if you had gone up to 6-7 phoenix instead of the 4-5 you had you could have killed all those queens instead of having to run away. I also take my 3rd a lot sooner than youdid, but that could have been due to that pesky zergling. Another point is that if you had kept up the air upgrades your carriers and voidrays would have done even better, the voidrays especially vs those corrupters. But glad to see people are trying it out :D | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 19 2011 07:11 Xylarthen wrote: Just as an out of the loop observation...this assumes that Zerg player would not be, by default, going Roach/Hydra. In addition to having Hydras which basically own gateway units with Roachs (unless Immortals or Collosi show up) and sucessfully stop the Phoenix harass (and lets not get started on Hydra vs Void Rays [unless they are fully charged or at a critical mass of about 1 to 1 Voids to Hydras]) the endgame unit (Carriers if it has been lost in the thread) is also a unit that is successfully stopped by Hydras? (This is because the targeting AI works wonders against the Interceptors nowadays while the Roaches would be battling the gateway army and winning as it has no immortals or collosi) As a further observation, no unit in this build hard counters Hydras like Collosi do. I'm sure I could be thwarted by another clever thinker out there, but hey, I'm just thinking out loud...er...out internet. The point is not to be engaging a roach hydra army out on creep, if the zerg maxes on roach/hydra then they either sit there and my army composition becomes better, or they attack into where I want them to and get ff'd and defended, I may never kill the whole army but I can defend until my tech kicks in. Voidrays defended by ff's can kill Hydra/Roach, also when are you talking about this push? Because an early push with just a handful of hydras with roaches can be thwarted by just lifting your hydras with my phoenix and since phoenix kill hydras extremely fast that ends the push because 1-2 voidrays will kill all your roaches. On March 19 2011 07:00 majestouch wrote: whats the point of learning//learning to execute a build that is only capable on lower levels, you are basically telling yourself "hey i'll never be masters so i'll just pick up on gimmicky builds that only work on lower levels". to me, that seems like a colossal waste of time. Please point out where this build is gimmicky? It's a strong solid strategy, that doesn't rely on luck or catching the zerg off guard, it just becomes better if you catch them off guard. I never stated anywhere that "I will never get to masters" I just don't have the time to consistently play to get there that fast, I slowly work my way towards it. Also no one on higher levels is trying this extensively so all the discussion on this strategy is based on theory, no one knows how it performs at higher levels. If it was proven that, after some thorough usage at a high level, it doesn't work I'd accept it and go back to the drawing board. | ||
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Lochat
United States270 Posts
On March 19 2011 07:46 Xujhan wrote: I have yet to see a single person on the internet use this phrase correctly. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" means that something must be experienced for its quality to be properly appreciated. What you stated is simply an argument from authority. </melvin> What he did was not actually an argument from authority. | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 19 2011 07:28 scatmango2 wrote: Too much theorycrafting going on in this thread. Hydra/roach drop into the protoss base = gg. Sorry but a few Phoenix will not stop 4-5 overlords full of Hydras from reaching their destination. I'm a 4070 rated Master Protoss on the EU server and I can tell you this will not work at high level on any map except for Delta Quadrant. It works on Delta Quadrant because you can turtle on 2 bases 100% safely because the choke into your main can be easily Force Fielded. I know it works because I played this style about 3 months ago. Except you go Mothership/Void Ray/Carrier/ Zealot. Edit: Phoenix are not as good as people think they are vs zerg (at least at high level play). You're talking about a zerg getting fast overlord speed and drops, along with a good amount of drones/hydras/roaches whilefending off 6+ phoenixes harassing you. I'm also not talking about a few phoenix I'm talking about 6+ which can defend a drop since a clump of overlords moving across the map is the most obvious thing ever, Phoenix can also lift your hydras in that fight and since phoenix kill hydras extremely quickly it lets the rest of my army win that fight. Also how many hydras are you going to have at that point, and what arethey going to attack? The gateway units? The voidray(s)? Or the phoenix? On March 19 2011 07:33 scatmango2 wrote: Can you point out where I said forge fast expand? You act as if arguing with me with your theory-crafting some how makes it more viable... LOL. The proof is in the pudding that you don't see this in pro-play because IT DOES NOT WORK. How many pros have tried this? or even experimented with it? Almost every pro, or high level player I see is on the colossus track 100% of the time, their plans all transition into colossus eventually. I can't fathom how people can come in here and blindly state that "this can't/won't work" without using it or playing against it a decent amount. | ||
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
I need to work on my phoenix timing. Theres a window where there isnt alot of hydras on the map to defend against phoenix harass. I hope someone will take the time to refine this build. Carriers off 3 base is so good lol. edit: I think with better zerg scouting they will be able to break this before the carriers are out. The zerg saw my 3 gate expand with 5 sentries and assumed i was going the colossus death ball. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
 Thread bookmarked. | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 19 2011 08:15 Ownos wrote: Sweet! I've done some carrier/stargate play in PvZ and loved it. Will try this out if it's more refined than the slop I usually put together. Thread bookmarked.Thanks :D On March 19 2011 08:11 GoldenH wrote: Looks like you're doing some experimenting, good luck. At higher levels I think you'll discover that hydras really aren't a problem, the problem is corruptor mixes and roach timings. Here's a similar thread I posted a while back. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186599 Ya I definitely feel that corrupter roach timings can be quite effective, but how would a corrupter roach timing do against a gateway/voidray composition? Considering normally when people make voidrays they aren't working on upgrades for them. I'll check out that thread for sure :D On March 19 2011 08:08 recklessfire wrote: i just tried this on cross position on shattered temple. The zerg went roach hydra with 2/2 upgrades and i had carriers at that point. He pushed and took out my 2nd and 3rd but i took out everything. The hydras couldnt reach the carriers off creep. I instantly rebuilt my nat and 3rd and he went mass corrupters. Mass corrupter didnt work so well against heavily upgraded carriers (i was 3/2 upgrades). He didnt have enough gas to fund another corrupter wave so gg..... I need to work on my phoenix timing. Theres a window where there isnt alot of hydras on the map to defend against phoenix harass. I hope someone will take the time to refine this build. Carriers off 3 base is so good lol. edit: I think with better zerg scouting they will be able to break this before the carriers are out. The zerg saw my 3 gate expand with 5 sentries and assumed i was going the colossus death ball. I feel if they attack sooner you can discourage them from trying to kill you with good ff's at a choke and using your voidrays. Exactly, lategame heavily upgraded protoss units just become so hard to deal with for zerg, and the carrier I feel is a unit that improves exponentially with upgrades due to how it's attack works. Glad to see people trying it out. The entire reason I transition from a 3 gate expand is to make zerg feel like they know what I'm doing, but it's such a safe and stable opening that it allows you to safely get carriers as long as you do some harassment with phoenix. When that window where there aren't that many hydras on the field arrives, if you have like 8-10 phoenix I just go and kill the hydras, it's quite funny how fast they die. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On March 19 2011 07:11 Xylarthen wrote: Just as an out of the loop observation...this assumes that Zerg player would not be, by default, going Roach/Hydra. In addition to having Hydras which basically own gateway units with Roachs (unless Immortals or Collosi show up) and sucessfully stop the Phoenix harass (and lets not get started on Hydra vs Void Rays [unless they are fully charged or at a critical mass of about 1 to 1 Voids to Hydras]) the endgame unit (Carriers if it has been lost in the thread) is also a unit that is successfully stopped by Hydras? (This is because the targeting AI works wonders against the Interceptors nowadays while the Roaches would be battling the gateway army and winning as it has no immortals or collosi) As a further observation, no unit in this build hard counters Hydras like Collosi do. I'm sure I could be thwarted by another clever thinker out there, but hey, I'm just thinking out loud...er...out internet. In straight fight, yes. I thought that at first. From my experience, hydras do not hard counter the carriers. Hydras are slow and if you got any sort of pathing blocker like a cliff or zealots you can kite them around using the graviton catapult to pick them off and pull back, pick them off, pull back, repeat. Sure, they could hold position and shoot your interceptors, but if you're killing 3-4 hydras at a time and losing maybe 8 interceptors that's a fair trade. 3 carriers and a just small handful of zealots/sentries will kill an equal amount in resources of hydras. You can try that yourself in a unit tester. | ||
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zozkA
Denmark33 Posts
On March 18 2011 14:21 oOOoOphidian wrote: Mutas are actually extremely good against Phoenix as long as there are a decent number of them. Definitely not worth dismissing that. Good build, though. I've long thought that Carriers were incredibly underused, especially given the huge delays that Phoenix builds can cause in Zerg's ability to mass and push out. It's nothing personal dude, but that is like saying "roaches are extremely good against immortals as long as there are a decent number of them". You can make any unit beat any other unit if you've got an overwhelming amount, but you have to measure cost effeciency aswell, right? Phoenix > Mutas, even in lesser numbers, go test for yourself. | ||
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On March 19 2011 07:33 scatmango2 wrote: You're theory-crafting. This uses a 3 gate sentry expo, not a forge fe, which means you can defend the drops by paying attention. Can you point out where I said forge fast expand? You act as if arguing with me with your theory-crafting some how makes it more viable... LOL. The proof is in the pudding that you don't see this in pro-play because IT DOES NOT WORK.[/QUOTE] You really need to pay attention to the mistakes. You think map-control and the ground army consisting of 8 sentries and many stalkers can't stop a drop from coming? "You make it sound like this build only consists of air units." < This man is correct. If you were 4000 masters for real, you would read and pay attention carefully to what this build has, which is a 3 gate sentry expand army, capable of defending from overlords if you pay attention with observers, hallucination, etc. 3 gate sentry expos has constant hallucination scouting, what makes you think we can't scout 200000 overlords coming towards our base? | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
On March 19 2011 08:19 Hierarch wrote: Ya I definitely feel that corrupter roach timings can be quite effective, but how would a corrupter roach timing do against a gateway/voidray composition? Considering normally when people make voidrays they aren't working on upgrades for them. I'll check out that thread for sure :D Well corruptor/roach isn't much of a problem, in fact, that's pretty much the best thing for you if you're building void rays, the thing is that there are timings with just roaches, or roach/hydra mixes, or going hydra then switching to corruptors, that can be hard to scout and deal with when your core unit takes 2 whole minutes to produce. | ||
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mamuto
United States88 Posts
oh. my. god. It completely destroys everything other than a 50 hydra ball. I flew into a cloud of overlords and they all died. I didn't attack move, i was just flying away from hydra/corruptor. They melted. I was constantly supply capping my friend and he was 30-40 under the cap too. I tried the larva killing trick, and 20 phoenix make short work of it. I am not sure, but it seems like you dont even need the +1 air attack to damage the larva (you are guaranteed 1 damage no matter the armor amount). Not too sure about this, maybe someone can confirm. This is far more deadly than a muta ball harass. I could outrun his hydras on creep, and his corruptors. I hit his 3rd, natural, and main with minimal losses other than to spore crawlers. Now, I'm sure a masters/pro will be able to split his army properly to defend everywhere, but if you got 20 phoenix up against 5-10 hydras, lift those bad boys up. Or hit the main with air, and the 3rd with zealots. Seriously, 20 phoenix is brutal. Very quick to get them, too. And I noticed I was floating gas more than minerals, but that might be because I wasn't upgrading consistently. Problems arose in big battles. he had pure hydra corruptor (max upgrades) vs. my archon/void/carrier and it stomped me. He still had about 6-7 hydras left over and I had nothing. Hierarch, what do you think about HT's? You're getting charge as soon as possible already, HT's will be very effective against pure hydra balls, corruptors are useless, and something like infestors can and will be feedback'd. I guess it'd depend on what the zerg chooses to do, but mass hydra/corruptor is not pleasant to deal with. You can always morph into archons, too. A bit off from your general strategy, but something like a zealot/HT/voidray/phoenix mix (with 20+ phoenix) might be totally killer. Thoughts? | ||
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