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[G] PvZ FE to Void Ray

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
GoldenH
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1115 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-22 04:21:42
January 22 2011 01:57 GMT
#1
Hi, I decided to share this build with other people in the hopes that it is useful, and also for feedback on the build since I haven't seen it used too much. I'm a 2700 point Diamond player and I've had good success with this build. I originally did 1 gate VR fast expand, but after the 1.1.2 patch I had troubles making it work, but I still wanted to use VRs in my build because of a perceived weakness in gateway units if you miss critical timing windows. Fortunately, it is possible to cannon FE against Zerg, so I was able to still use VRs, just a little bit later. This guide tells you how.

[image loading]

This is a very solid build that depends heavily on your rush timing and scouting ability and has adaptations to every zerg play except Infestors because I haven't seen them in a game yet. At my best I have seen an 85% win rate, though after a slump where I got too cannon heavy, currently I am only 70% against Zerg.

EDIT:
TLDR version (VOD) added: http://livestre.am/Ab7b or http://blip.tv/file/4665322
I had to redo it because it didnt get video the first time, so the audio is out of sync.

Problems of FE / VR

+ Show Spoiler +

The problem with it is that it is basically a rush strategy and zerg is excellent on putting on pressure. If the zerg puts on too much pressure, and delays your teching while also teching himself, he can be on even footing or even beat you.
It also suffers of a weakness from backdoors and requires you to be able to defend your main and your natural with the same cannon line.
You are going to have difficulty scouting as you have no observers and handful of speedlings can deny any scouting probe or stalker, so you must make the most out of limited information. Many times reaching his base with your army will be the initial contact with his army and you will have to react from there.
Because you have a small high-tech army it can only be in one place at once, so you will have to rely on static defenses, and later, warped in units, to defend your bases, sometimes you may even have to pull probes.
Also because you are FE, any weakness of your FE can be exploited.


The Opening:

+ Show Spoiler +

You do the fastest PvZ FE, so use whatever tricks you know. My current strategy is to scout for his pool, put down a forge when you see his pool and then a Nexus on 21, or a Nexus on 17. Put down 2 cannons to start, three if he goes gas pool. Your first cannon should defend your ramp, your second should prevent zerglings from hitting your nexus, and the third should prevent zerglings from hitting your assimilators while covering another cannon.. All your cannons should be in range of as many other cannons so that 2 cannons will hit any zergling attacking a cannon. Build a gateway ASAP, before your third cannon if possible, then scout him while building 2 assimilators in your main. If you see a mass of zerglings or roaches, get more cannons. If you see banelings try walling off your cannons with more gateways or getting sentries for forcefield. If he's just building drones just build 2 more assimilators and a cyber core. Keep pumping probes, Void Rays are expensive and you need the minerals in case your rush fails or more cannons are needed. It's not an all in if you do it right.


Scouting:

+ Show Spoiler +

Try and scout his base to see when he gets gas and a lair. A fast lair means a fast nydus, one gas means roaches, more means hydra/muta. If he has a lair is pretty hard to tell. Lairs morph faster than zergling speed, so there's no way to know if he has a lair but to go see it for yourself. If you can't see if he has a lair you have no choice but to patrol your base for a nydus worm. If you see one you have to kill it with your probes or you are dead. The earliest a nydus worm can appear in your base is when you are starting your stargates. So you won't even have a zealot in most cases, and he'll have no units to scout - a single round of larvae injects of roach and zerglings in a nydus is enough to kill you.. so scout his army like your life depends on it and make the minimum number of cannons needed to live or else.


Teching up:

+ Show Spoiler +

As soon as your cyber core finishes you should start the air weapons upgrade. Then look at your gas. If you have ~300 gas then start building your stargates, you should have enough for 3 of them by the time you get your first 2 down. If you have more, try and consider how much extra gas you have. If you have over 700 gas you should probably get 4 stargates. If you have more. you should get some sentries (guardian shield <3) and strongly consider abandoning this build. But if you insist, you can get a fleet beacon and then shield upgrade from the forge. If you have extra minerals, build a zealot and some more cannons or try and sneak an expand.

Once your stargates are done build 3 VRs and start saving your chrono boost. If your stargates are scouted, immediately attack with them, otherwise, wait for another 3 VRs to attack. Use all your chrono boost on the second wave of VRs, then chrono boost out more phoenixes. Try and time your attack so your VR and phoenix arrive at his base at the same time.


Which base to choose:

+ Show Spoiler +

The third: If he took a fast third in response to your early expand kill it off if its in your way, otherwise just ignore it.

You have basically two strategies here: Kill off his expos so that you can get a economic advantage, or go to his main and kill off any tech so he can't make mobile units so you can get the economic advantage. But its not good enough to kill just one expo, he has to be reduced to one base vs your (soon) three bases.

So if his natural is in your way, feel free to blast the drones, but strongly consider going into his main to get the anti air tech.


The attack:
+ Show Spoiler +

Now you've done it. The Zerg is probably screaming about imba right now, but the fact is, that he can destroy all your units for cost or force you to fall back. The only reason he won't is if he failed to scout, and he had overlords. So here's how to make it works.

First bring a zealot along with your army. Your VRs will protect it against any speedlings. When you get near him send in the zealot first. If you're lucky the zealot will see what units he has.

The most dangerous case is mass muta; you need to pull back and wait for 6 or so phoenix or you will lose all your VR!

Best case is mass roach or zergling/baneling or a ton of spine crawlers, but many Zerg players will not even attack your base with any ground army, trying to hide their hydras in clumps of roaches so you can't micro them down or just too focused on microing their anti air.

Spore Colonies or Hydras mean you have to fall back and tech to carriers and +3 air damage. Get a third base and 4 warp gates of zealots while you store up gas to make your first round of carriers.

Mass queens is easy, just get more phoenix, then lift them all up for a GG,

A mix of say, 6 hydra 3 queens and 8 muta will be very deadly, since they will kill all your VR for sure and you won't really be able to run because of the speed of muta and hydra on creep.


Win: Hooray!

Not sure if win: How to choose your targets:

+ Show Spoiler +

If you're in his base killing his stuff while his army is streaming in, its important to know what to target first.

1 HP spore colonies are a given, since once they finish they'll be able to push you off, and killing them outright means less minerals for him to make hydra or queens or more spore colonies.

Also scare away the drones if you can, a second of 6 VRs blasting at drones will usually be enough to maynard them to the natural so you can get on with blasting the base, but if he wants to let you kill his drones, more power to him. You don't want to chase them but its best(?) if they run away.

The next is a hydra den; you can handle pure spire tech with vr/phoenix. But with hydras mixed in you are going to be out of luck and you won't be making colossus neither.

Overlords: Killing ovies is great way to start a battle, so that he can't use all his saved up larvae to kill you. But if you can't find his ovie swarm before you kill his drones, don't bother until now.

Then the spire. If there's just one evo chamber and all 6 of your VR are alive, go ahead and kill it off now too, otherwise head for his natural and kill all the drones there.

If he's just got an evo chamber and has built a ton (more than 5) of spore colonies that are actually all clustered around his hatchery and not so you can just take damage from one at a time, just fall back and do a 12 warp gate to finish the job.


Else: RETREAT!

+ Show Spoiler +

You may not be able to retreat but you should try. This is a very expensive little army, representing 2000 minerals and 900 gas. If you have to run away and hide in your cannons that's fine, you shouldn't die yet as long as you remember to expand. Your reaction should vary depending on his build.

Too many hydra: Time to get a third and go carrier/zealot. If you have good macro you can have so many zealot that they will all die and none of your carriers will.

Mix of hydra/muta: You'll need to keep going VR/phoenix but need a third base to get some high templar along with gateway units. That's because the


If you've made it this far, welcome to the midgame.
Midgame:

+ Show Spoiler +

You enter the midgame with a strange mix of air units, the ability to scout the map, and a surplus of minerals, usually around 1000. You should immediately throw down gateways, and an expansion.

If he's got mass hydra you're going to need carriers, so stop phoenix production, get a fleet beacon, and start making zealots.

If he somehow held you off with mass muta, you're going to want cannons in your mineral lines and more phoenixes before you can start making void rays again. You're going to want to try and kill him off before he can switch to hydras, as a hydra/corruptor/muta force will utterly destroy your air.

If he already has hydra/corruptor/muta you are going to need High Templar, so be careful here and get a robo for the observer and try to deny creep spread.

Take your phoenix and scout, make sure to keep an eye on his unit composition and stomp any expos ASAP. You might want to get speed prisms for this, I haven't tried it yet but I intend to.

Motherships don't seem to help much, and you really need the gas for everything else.

If you lose your army again it becomes Lategame.


Planning for Lategame: Because it's too late to change your fate now.

+ Show Spoiler +

If you planned on getting here you should have been getting upgrades earlier, and I mean all of them. You had a forge and a cyber core, so you could have been using them but why weren't you??? Did you really need that one more stalker?! The answer may have been yes, but, that's not going to get any sympathy. If you could get four bases do it, then you'll have enough gas... otherwise, you just won't have the upgrades to win.

Stick it out though. Because you may just have a Zerg out of the blue say "Holy ****, I just can't afford to fight you anymore" and GG. You may have mined out your main and be on one base and just sacrificed 20 zealots to kill all his drones but if you have been constantly killing his stuff you might just win.


Replays

Here's a replay pack: http://hammerand.com/goldenh/FE2VRreps.zip

You can use SC2 reps to pick out ones where I win or lose with it, I tried to pull out all the reps where I didn't do this build but there might be a few in there, sorry.

You can also watch my stream, I have some VODs on it that that include this game among my other games.
"(Dudes are) not going to say "Buy this game — I cried at the end". (...) I suppose the secret is to find a game that makes you shoot eight million fuckin' dudes and then cry about how awesome it is to shoot eight million fuckin' dudes." - Tim Rogers
eGoTricKShoT
Profile Joined November 2010
United States46 Posts
January 22 2011 10:41 GMT
#2
im surprised no one commented on this...
zergs have adapted really well to most void ray styles that have been seen so far, but that doesnt mean this one wouldnt be good ^^ either way, you definitley put a lot of effort in on this and had it well thought out and organized, so i wanted to say nice job
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
January 22 2011 11:03 GMT
#3
As a roach person in ZvP, I can already rage from this. This indicates that its a good PvZ build :D .

For added 'cheesyness' , for a lack of better term, you should only put 1 voidray at the front and keep the rest way back. An unsuspected flock of 7 voidrays can so easily overwhelm me if I am not prepared its silly.

Another thing I would like to add is, doing a 2 pronged attack if he has 3 bases up. Move the voidrays into his main and target the hatch/lair. This WILL make him move his units back to defend his tech. Then attack the undefended third and retreat. If he is able to defend, which most zergs who have everything on 1 hotkey won't, he will still be under a lot of pressure.

During these attacks you can take a pretty safe third and cannon that in too. Cannons are amazing for zoning zerg units.
Pongo
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia79 Posts
January 22 2011 11:16 GMT
#4
I've just switched to Protoss and am playing with new builds now. I've starting doing a cannon FE into double sgate VR / 4 gate (gold NA) and am finding it great at this level.

I've been getting air armour and +1 shields just before pushing with 4-6 vrs and about 10-12 gateway units. Mainly I just want want the +1's and guardian shield to mitigate as much AA damage as possible.

What are your thoughts on teching armour and or shields instead of weapons?

I've figured that this would be pretty effective against muta bounce dmg and queen AA but a bit soft against hydra.
Noob3rt
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada114 Posts
January 22 2011 12:02 GMT
#5
I absolutely hate Voidrays as Zerg. It just makes me rage hard for some reason. It's like DTs, but worse.
"What is life without happiness?"
Valefort
Profile Joined December 2010
France228 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-22 12:44:01
January 22 2011 12:40 GMT
#6
I've used void rays against zergs with rougly the same strategy (fe mass voids with photon) and the mothership is really useful, i don't really use zealots though.
First it really helps to defend hydra pushes. They are really deadly, no matter the number of photons canons, but with void you can snipe overseers and have a very strong defense.
Once you have a good amount of voids it is quite feasible (very easy) to snipe an expansion and to recall the voids to safety (or to another of his base) while his units are moving around the map.
Malderon
Profile Joined September 2009
Netherlands136 Posts
January 22 2011 13:24 GMT
#7
Just noting that the RETREAT section seems incomplete:

Mix of hydra/muta: You'll need to keep going VR/phoenix but need a third base to get some high templar along with gateway units. That's because the
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
January 22 2011 13:49 GMT
#8
I prefer 1 stargate -> 1 voidray then phoenix these days.
Phoenix build so much faster that you can do it off 1 stargate and their speed is just great utility to harass. The first push is also much stronger with 1 voidray and 2 phoenix then with 2 voidray (especially as the phoenix are super fast so they catch up).
Upgrading air attack straight off the bat is a bit risky imo, investing too much into air is just not that good and will lose to a hydra push. It's better to wait a bit first and then see if you have the oppurtunity to get +1 air then go for it straight away imo, it doesn't benefit the voids that awful much anyway.
Farkinator
Profile Joined August 2010
United States283 Posts
January 22 2011 14:29 GMT
#9
Forge fast expand is such a great opening in general. There are so many different branches off of it you couldn't believe. The strength of this build, in my opinion, is its ability to deny zerg thirds. With the mobility of an air army, you can be everywhere at once denying thirds for Zerg. Zerg on three base is exponentially scarier than Zerg on two base. Also, the air control you get from phoenixes allows you to do devastating types of harass with warp prisms while expanding like storm drops. Personally, I'm becoming more of a fan of just straight to Templar tech and keeping them on their heels with DTs, but there's no sense in debating which is better. Just like in Brood War, that fast expansion opens every single tech tree the Protoss can do and it's wonderful.
Get some bases, smash some faces.
Khaladas
Profile Joined May 2010
United States223 Posts
January 22 2011 15:50 GMT
#10
Seems like a very aggressive opening with a good chance to surprise your opponent and win the game.

Have you tried using colossi instead of HT?
time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a bananna
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
January 22 2011 16:51 GMT
#11
Loving the zealot/phoenix/void ray composition. It's so powerful against 2 base zerg (since you denied the 3rd), and if he goes infestors his army will be reduced in size. There's a timing window where the zerg can exploit so you will need extra cannons to defend, along with your few phoenixes + void rays.

I only see this working in larger maps/cross position, though, and the only way to deny the 3rd early is to put a pylon and a cannon. Works well. ^_^
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
GoldenH
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1115 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-22 17:16:18
January 22 2011 17:03 GMT
#12
On January 22 2011 19:41 eGoTricKShoT wrote:
im surprised no one commented on this...
zergs have adapted really well to most void ray styles that have been seen so far, but that doesnt mean this one wouldnt be good ^^ either way, you definitley put a lot of effort in on this and had it well thought out and organized, so i wanted to say nice job


Thanks I was worried I had done something wrong with posting the guide or maybe everyone thought it was terrible

On January 22 2011 20:03 Chaosvuistje wrote:
As a roach person in ZvP, I can already rage from this. This indicates that its a good PvZ build :D .
+ Show Spoiler +

For added 'cheesyness' , for a lack of better term, you should only put 1 voidray at the front and keep the rest way back. An unsuspected flock of 7 voidrays can so easily overwhelm me if I am not prepared its silly.

Another thing I would like to add is, doing a 2 pronged attack if he has 3 bases up. Move the voidrays into his main and target the hatch/lair. This WILL make him move his units back to defend his tech. Then attack the undefended third and retreat. If he is able to defend, which most zergs who have everything on 1 hotkey won't, he will still be under a lot of pressure.

During these attacks you can take a pretty safe third and cannon that in too. Cannons are amazing for zoning zerg units.


Thanks for the suggestions they sound really good. I generally like to put all my units in his base at once if possible, scouting with a seventh air unit would be great but the time from when he sees I have ANY voidrays til the time I am in his base I like to be as small as possible. Sometimes the 3 stargates are built at staggered times so it makes perfect sense to send out one VR before the others, but if he has decent scouting he will see the others coming slightly behind so might as well just send them all at once and sac a zealot or something instead of an expensive VR.


On January 22 2011 20:16 Pongo wrote:
Show nested quote +

I've just switched to Protoss and am playing with new builds now. I've starting doing a cannon FE into double sgate VR / 4 gate (gold NA) and am finding it great at this level.

I've been getting air armour and +1 shields just before pushing with 4-6 vrs and about 10-12 gateway units. Mainly I just want want the +1's and guardian shield to mitigate as much AA damage as possible.

What are your thoughts on teching armour and or shields instead of weapons?

I've figured that this would be pretty effective against muta bounce dmg and queen AA but a bit soft against hydra.


Well I would only worry about armor and shields if I was losing units. This isn't the case really if I control my units right, they are all expensive tech units. If I am not going to lose the unit I don't care if it has 1 hp left or 200. With good micro you can avoid losing units so I would rather have the attack upgrade.

Also you have to consider the cost. Air Attack upgrade costs 100/100. Air armor costs 150/150. Shields cost 200/200. Air is clearly cheaper so for the initial rush I find I can afford it without delaying my void rays. Plus VR and Phoenix attack speed are both pretty damn fast so they get more out of weapon upgrades than most units.

The reason I say to build the upgrade, THEN the stargates, is because otherwise you will just have to wait for the gas anyway to build a VR and will have delayed your attack upgrade.

Plus carriers are my fallback tech and they are the most disgusting with +3 attack as fast as possible. If you can get +3 attack on carriers while the opponent is on +1 armor then you win.

On January 22 2011 21:40 Valefort wrote:
I've used void rays against zergs with rougly the same strategy (fe mass voids with photon) and the mothership is really useful, i don't really use zealots though.
First it really helps to defend hydra pushes. They are really deadly, no matter the number of photons canons, but with void you can snipe overseers and have a very strong defense.
Once you have a good amount of voids it is quite feasible (very easy) to snipe an expansion and to recall the voids to safety (or to another of his base) while his units are moving around the map.


I really have found that it is hard to afford the gas for a mothership and it's difficult to justify the expense if you're close to winning. But if you don't make the carrier transition it is possible. That's why I use zealots all my other gas is going to upgrades and carriers.

On January 22 2011 22:24 Malderon wrote:
Just noting that the RETREAT section seems incomplete:

Show nested quote +
Mix of hydra/muta: You'll need to keep going VR/phoenix but need a third base to get some high templar along with gateway units. That's because the


thx I'll try and fix that.

On January 22 2011 22:49 Markwerf wrote:
I prefer 1 stargate -> 1 voidray then phoenix these days.
Phoenix build so much faster that you can do it off 1 stargate and their speed is just great utility to harass. The first push is also much stronger with 1 voidray and 2 phoenix then with 2 voidray (especially as the phoenix are super fast so they catch up).
Upgrading air attack straight off the bat is a bit risky imo, investing too much into air is just not that good and will lose to a hydra push. It's better to wait a bit first and then see if you have the oppurtunity to get +1 air then go for it straight away imo, it doesn't benefit the voids that awful much anyway.


I don't think it will lose to hydra push if done correctly, I have lost to hydra pushes in the past but I think I have figured it out. There is a one base hydra timing push replay in there on Scrap Station that is dangerously effective. But I don't think I could hold it off with gateway units and Colossus may not come fast enough.

There are many different ways to use the money from a FE I am just sharing this one because I have been able to make it work... I would be interested in 4gate/ 2 stargate or 6 gate/1 stargate openings if anyone has good ideas on how to do them, or how to do this build with more phoenixes or faster carriers.

On January 23 2011 00:50 Khaladas wrote:
Seems like a very aggressive opening with a good chance to surprise your opponent and win the game.

Have you tried using colossi instead of HT?


There isn't much point because the only reason I would get HT is because there are too many corruptors out to get carriers to kill his hydra. Corruptors would own any Colossi out just as much as they would own carriers.

The only game where I've had to deal with a critical mix of hydra/corruptor/muta is the DCHOPA game so, check it out.
"(Dudes are) not going to say "Buy this game — I cried at the end". (...) I suppose the secret is to find a game that makes you shoot eight million fuckin' dudes and then cry about how awesome it is to shoot eight million fuckin' dudes." - Tim Rogers
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