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On March 22 2011 07:08 WoolySheep wrote:
Thank you for this post!
Last weekend I started trying to go carriers in both T and Z matchups. I won some and lost some (got too excited and tried rushing for them), but what I really like about carriers is that I am having fun again. Even if I lose, it is so much more exciting trying to get carriers then the standard colossus. I think carriers are under used and tend to scare/confuse some opponents.
I'm glad you're enjoying it, I only use Carriers against terran if they are going for Mech, since Thors aren't like Goliaths for anti-armored air. :D
Post any other feedback you discover also, I just want to evolve this build and explore the possibilities :D
On March 22 2011 07:15 Gemini_19 wrote:
@Hierarch: Not yet. I'm slowly easing into the style. I'll try more carrier based play today.
You can also put under "Tips and Tricks" running into fields of overlords like I did ^^
Added :D
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On March 21 2011 22:51 Herr_Trichter wrote:
p and t have to pressure zerg. I think this is a basic concept of the game.
P can expo for free since his production facilities are also his bases. On 4 hatcheries with queens zerg can produce 28 drones in 45 seconds to saturate another base. Can toss or terran do this? If u leave a zerg unpressured he will get ahead in eco very very fast. 3 or 4 base protoss can be scary - but tier 3 zerg with tons of ressources and the ability to instantly remax is scary too.
In the game i posted i loose a maxed sling, roach, infestor, broodlord army to the protoss and when he pushes 30 seconds after this fight i kill all his air and colossus with 25 corruptors and clean up the remaining forces.
If anyone wants to put double stargate opening after sentry expand or forge expand vs zerg to the test i wil be only for the next couple of hours on eu server: HerrTrichter.
I will go for sling hydra push of you forge expand and i will go for sling, roach, infestor, queen mass eco if u go sentry expand.
I stopped reading when you said tier 3. Please name a tier 3 unit that can attack air.
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On March 22 2011 06:13 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 05:06 zLnoEk wrote:
ill get my friend to try this sometime so i can see if there's a way to beat it
but right now, i feel like speedlingbaneling can end the game early for you~ I feel it could also, but as long as I survive with a base, a counter push with zealot/stalker/voidray will win the game. It all depends on how many probes I lose. Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:41 Shiladie wrote:
2 options for zerg, I don't know which would work better:
roach+hydra+infestor, leaning a lot heavier on the hydra as roaches are just there to tank the zealots. This would be off of 3-4base play, as it is extremely hard to prevent expanding with this comp until your carrier numbers are up.
muta+corruptor+roach, I've had a lot of success with this vs Ps who go mass phoenix, the key is to use it as a harass force. If the phoenix come in to try and pick at mutas, corruptors get free shots off, focus the mutas on probe lines and killing pylons, dodging any stalker balls he has and sniping off VRs that get too out of position. If the phoenix+VR try a pitched fight without stalker or cannon support, they lose. The roaches are just there for defence, after a good amount of harass, P will get fed up and push out vs you. macro up everything into roaches as he crosses the map and crush his ground army. This would rely a lot on the carrier timing window, as that is something I really have no idea on, but it feels like if the P was going for carriers, there'd be a very obvious window where the first round of carriers are still in production that the Z has free reign over the P's base with muta+corruptor (dancing around a lot to keep corrupts between phoenix and muta)
My success with this may just be due to bad P players, but the flaw of the phoenix is that when they are doing their moving shot, they attack the closest thing, simply make that the corrupts. If they fly in and stop to kill mutas, your mutas rape them anyways. Roach/Infester/Hydra, in which order? Are you going for super early Infesters? Also Carriers will be off 3 bases for me, I can delay a 3rd for you with a voidray and 3-4 phoenix. Also to prevent late game expansions, DT's allow me to delay or outright deny 4th or 5th expansions. Muta/Corrupter/Roach just outright loses to a gateway/voidray push seeing as stalker,sentry just can plow through that. Now if you go to harass my base with muta/corrupter here's a few problems, you won't have nearly as many mutas as you would if you were going pure muta, 3 canons in my mineral lines and running 3-4 stalkers back there just nullifies this harassment. Macroing everything into roaches wouldn't work if I just pushed out with my forces once I see a muta/corrupter harass attempt. Also that's a lot of gas going into muta/corrupter so I don't understand how you'd have enough roaches to defend a push at that timing.
Again this may be due to playing bad Ps, but I just sit on 2-base with a spam of spine crawlers at my nat due to gas limiting my army. with P on 2-3 base, it's easy to dance between them out running stalkers. The general flaw I see in the air-dom P is that corruptors and mutas win in all straight up fights while being more mobile then all but the phoenix.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 22 2011 07:46 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 06:13 Hierarch wrote:On March 22 2011 05:06 zLnoEk wrote:
ill get my friend to try this sometime so i can see if there's a way to beat it
but right now, i feel like speedlingbaneling can end the game early for you~ I feel it could also, but as long as I survive with a base, a counter push with zealot/stalker/voidray will win the game. It all depends on how many probes I lose. On March 22 2011 04:41 Shiladie wrote:
2 options for zerg, I don't know which would work better:
roach+hydra+infestor, leaning a lot heavier on the hydra as roaches are just there to tank the zealots. This would be off of 3-4base play, as it is extremely hard to prevent expanding with this comp until your carrier numbers are up.
muta+corruptor+roach, I've had a lot of success with this vs Ps who go mass phoenix, the key is to use it as a harass force. If the phoenix come in to try and pick at mutas, corruptors get free shots off, focus the mutas on probe lines and killing pylons, dodging any stalker balls he has and sniping off VRs that get too out of position. If the phoenix+VR try a pitched fight without stalker or cannon support, they lose. The roaches are just there for defence, after a good amount of harass, P will get fed up and push out vs you. macro up everything into roaches as he crosses the map and crush his ground army. This would rely a lot on the carrier timing window, as that is something I really have no idea on, but it feels like if the P was going for carriers, there'd be a very obvious window where the first round of carriers are still in production that the Z has free reign over the P's base with muta+corruptor (dancing around a lot to keep corrupts between phoenix and muta)
My success with this may just be due to bad P players, but the flaw of the phoenix is that when they are doing their moving shot, they attack the closest thing, simply make that the corrupts. If they fly in and stop to kill mutas, your mutas rape them anyways. Roach/Infester/Hydra, in which order? Are you going for super early Infesters? Also Carriers will be off 3 bases for me, I can delay a 3rd for you with a voidray and 3-4 phoenix. Also to prevent late game expansions, DT's allow me to delay or outright deny 4th or 5th expansions. Muta/Corrupter/Roach just outright loses to a gateway/voidray push seeing as stalker,sentry just can plow through that. Now if you go to harass my base with muta/corrupter here's a few problems, you won't have nearly as many mutas as you would if you were going pure muta, 3 canons in my mineral lines and running 3-4 stalkers back there just nullifies this harassment. Macroing everything into roaches wouldn't work if I just pushed out with my forces once I see a muta/corrupter harass attempt. Also that's a lot of gas going into muta/corrupter so I don't understand how you'd have enough roaches to defend a push at that timing. Again this may be due to playing bad Ps, but I just sit on 2-base with a spam of spine crawlers at my nat due to gas limiting my army. with P on 2-3 base, it's easy to dance between them out running stalkers. The general flaw I see in the air-dom P is that corruptors and mutas win in all straight up fights while being more mobile then all but the phoenix.
I haven't had this issue, I've played games where I go almost entirely air play (mostly on scrap station) against zerg and just flat out crush large groups of hydras and corrupters with no ground support. Void rays do very very well against corrupters, phoenix annihilate mutas as long as they aren't horribly outnumbered, and carriers do very well vs. hydras, and okay vs. mutas and corrupters. Air upgrades for toss are also very very good, and most zergs don't upgrade both their hydras and their air well.
Also, as a potential late game transition once you figure out that they are focusing on beating your air entirely, add in some archons. They rip mutas and corrupters to shreds, and tank hydras exceptionally well. Use DT's to save gas vs. high templar, and you get the added benefit of DT/phoenix being awesome against zerg (snipe the overseers with the phoenix really quick then let your dt's go to town).
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On March 22 2011 07:46 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 06:13 Hierarch wrote:On March 22 2011 05:06 zLnoEk wrote:
ill get my friend to try this sometime so i can see if there's a way to beat it
but right now, i feel like speedlingbaneling can end the game early for you~ I feel it could also, but as long as I survive with a base, a counter push with zealot/stalker/voidray will win the game. It all depends on how many probes I lose. On March 22 2011 04:41 Shiladie wrote:
2 options for zerg, I don't know which would work better:
roach+hydra+infestor, leaning a lot heavier on the hydra as roaches are just there to tank the zealots. This would be off of 3-4base play, as it is extremely hard to prevent expanding with this comp until your carrier numbers are up.
muta+corruptor+roach, I've had a lot of success with this vs Ps who go mass phoenix, the key is to use it as a harass force. If the phoenix come in to try and pick at mutas, corruptors get free shots off, focus the mutas on probe lines and killing pylons, dodging any stalker balls he has and sniping off VRs that get too out of position. If the phoenix+VR try a pitched fight without stalker or cannon support, they lose. The roaches are just there for defence, after a good amount of harass, P will get fed up and push out vs you. macro up everything into roaches as he crosses the map and crush his ground army. This would rely a lot on the carrier timing window, as that is something I really have no idea on, but it feels like if the P was going for carriers, there'd be a very obvious window where the first round of carriers are still in production that the Z has free reign over the P's base with muta+corruptor (dancing around a lot to keep corrupts between phoenix and muta)
My success with this may just be due to bad P players, but the flaw of the phoenix is that when they are doing their moving shot, they attack the closest thing, simply make that the corrupts. If they fly in and stop to kill mutas, your mutas rape them anyways. Roach/Infester/Hydra, in which order? Are you going for super early Infesters? Also Carriers will be off 3 bases for me, I can delay a 3rd for you with a voidray and 3-4 phoenix. Also to prevent late game expansions, DT's allow me to delay or outright deny 4th or 5th expansions. Muta/Corrupter/Roach just outright loses to a gateway/voidray push seeing as stalker,sentry just can plow through that. Now if you go to harass my base with muta/corrupter here's a few problems, you won't have nearly as many mutas as you would if you were going pure muta, 3 canons in my mineral lines and running 3-4 stalkers back there just nullifies this harassment. Macroing everything into roaches wouldn't work if I just pushed out with my forces once I see a muta/corrupter harass attempt. Also that's a lot of gas going into muta/corrupter so I don't understand how you'd have enough roaches to defend a push at that timing. Again this may be due to playing bad Ps, but I just sit on 2-base with a spam of spine crawlers at my nat due to gas limiting my army. with P on 2-3 base, it's easy to dance between them out running stalkers. The general flaw I see in the air-dom P is that corruptors and mutas win in all straight up fights while being more mobile then all but the phoenix.
I don't see how spine crawlers will help vs zealot/stalker/sentry/voidray. Dividing your units between mutas and corrupters means you're not gonna have that many attacking units that hit ground. I just feel that spine crawlers just give my voidrays a chance to charge up before your air army shows up, you may end up killing all my voids and phoenix, but your muta count will be to low to engage my ground army and I can just waltz into your main from there, that's how I feel about a 2 base muta/corrupter play, correct me if you think you could hold that kind of push? and how you would.
Also I could just match you on static defense and put 4-5 canons at each mineral line.
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I present you with my first replay:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197306.jpg)
I have never played this fast (nearing 100apm) lol I remember when i could barely break 60.
No carriers in this game, like Gemini I'm easing into it. There's way too much to do when you have phoenix on the field -___-
I supply capped him as well haha, flying around sniping overlords is so much fun. I then transition into HT (barely survived hahah need to work on that >.<) and hold his army.
I realized something interesting this game, and its that as you upgrade air attack, you need less and less phoenix to snipe overlords/drones/larva unless he's getting armor upgrades. So maybe start with 15-20 but with constant upgrades losing 5-10 isn't even going to matter, freeing up the stargates for voids or carriers. I'm still scared to tech to carriers :/
But my god 10-15 phoenix flying around dropping zergs supply from 200 to 150 or lower is ridiculous. Perhaps a late game strat (if you still have 10+ phoenix) would be to suicide them into a field of ovies, warp in, and push at the same time. He won't be able to reinforce, and you win. *evil grin*
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So I've faced a problem..
Muta/Corruptor
Muta's in large numbers massacre phoenix as it is...but now corruptors are in the fight as well just making the zerg not back up when he sees the phoenix. I can't kill nearly enough muta's and then he just rolls over me.
I can't attack either since he has a giant wall of spine crawlers across the map as well as lings.
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On March 19 2011 09:14 atribone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 08:41 GoldenH wrote:On March 19 2011 08:19 Hierarch wrote:On March 19 2011 08:11 GoldenH wrote:Looks like you're doing some experimenting, good luck. At higher levels I think you'll discover that hydras really aren't a problem, the problem is corruptor mixes and roach timings. Here's a similar thread I posted a while back. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186599 Ya I definitely feel that corrupter roach timings can be quite effective, but how would a corrupter roach timing do against a gateway/voidray composition? Considering normally when people make voidrays they aren't working on upgrades for them. I'll check out that thread for sure :D Well corruptor/roach isn't much of a problem, in fact, that's pretty much the best thing for you if you're building void rays, the thing is that there are timings with just roaches, or roach/hydra mixes, or going hydra then switching to corruptors, that can be hard to scout and deal with when your core unit takes 2 whole minutes to produce. I'm pretty sure you don't understand. The build has a lot of flexibility based on what you are scouting. Having a build where you just blindly go any unit is pretty stupid at any level of play. Plus, he's not going carriers until his third is up and the timings that you are talking about seem to be well before that.
Nah, I understand just fine, but when you are building units that take 2 minutes to come out, it doesn't matter how good you scout, you ARE blindly going that unit and hoping things don't change 3-4 production cycles later.
On March 19 2011 09:11 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 08:41 GoldenH wrote:On March 19 2011 08:19 Hierarch wrote:On March 19 2011 08:11 GoldenH wrote:Looks like you're doing some experimenting, good luck. At higher levels I think you'll discover that hydras really aren't a problem, the problem is corruptor mixes and roach timings. Here's a similar thread I posted a while back. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186599 Ya I definitely feel that corrupter roach timings can be quite effective, but how would a corrupter roach timing do against a gateway/voidray composition? Considering normally when people make voidrays they aren't working on upgrades for them. I'll check out that thread for sure :D Well corruptor/roach isn't much of a problem, in fact, that's pretty much the best thing for you if you're building void rays, the thing is that there are timings with just roaches, or roach/hydra mixes, or going hydra then switching to corruptors, that can be hard to scout and deal with when your core unit takes 2 whole minutes to produce. I feel that this build is getting put into a corner like the colossus builds, in a colossus build the protoss must go colossus to survive. You don't have to get carriers at all in this build, but it's the end game transition from a 2 stargate midgame. You could just pump voidrays and/or more phoenix and push out with a gateway composition.
Well, if that works, that's great. My experience has been that carriers own hydras though, while hydras are great against phoenix, void rays, and gateway units. 1 carrier > 4 hydras, even if they're directly attacking the carrier. Carriers has actually become my default response to seeing a zerg go hydras. It's the potential for them to instantly build 12 corruptors when they've been going mass hydras that's the danger there, and you can't tell what's in the egg until it pops (and he can just take a look at the Stargate). Anything that's "if I scout X, I build carriers" ... just doesn't work, because by the time you have your carriers, the battlefield is completely different. You're either getting carriers or you're not.
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I've been trying this strategy and it is a lot of fun. I was actually getting tired of SC because it seems like the typical thing for protoss to do in all three match ups is to get colossus.
Like a previous poster said, I'm having fun again!
And I win too. That's a good bonus!
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On March 22 2011 10:06 Gemini_19 wrote:
So I've faced a problem..
Muta/Corruptor
Muta's in large numbers massacre phoenix as it is...but now corruptors are in the fight as well just making the zerg not back up when he sees the phoenix. I can't kill nearly enough muta's and then he just rolls over me.
I can't attack either since he has a giant wall of spine crawlers across the map as well as lings.
If they're turtling with spines that bad just tech to HT and canon up hard, or honestly when I've seen muta/corrupter I just push at their base before they can mass too many, lings fail ahrd vs zealots and sentrys and your couple voidrays should help you just nuke the spine crawlers, I personally don't make as many phoenix as you guys are, I stop anywhere form 6-10 and then i pump voidrays until i have about 6 or so.
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Here's a game of me defending early ling, baneling aggression, no idea it was coming since my stargates had just started. For those who were wondering how I'd hold it.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197328.jpg)
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I really like the concept of this build. What I like about it a lot is that instead of the Zerg trying to react to the Protoss (which is what usually happens) the Protoss is reacting to the Zerg by basically opening up with a strategy that forces a reaction. With Phoenix harass I think it's pretty clear that the Zerg player has a multitude of avenues to take in order to deal with it... Hydras, Corrupters, Infestors... You name it. But the key to this build is not simply just saying "I'm going to make this unit composition and I will be unstoppable vs Zerg!". No, it's not that at all... Instead the Protoss opens with one of the safest openings possible (Btw, that last game you posted Hierarch I feel that you would have benefited from more Sentries as you were strapped for minerals and had WAYYYYY too much gas when you were getting your second base started up. Either start the 3rd and 4th gas geysers later or make more sentries would be my suggestion for the future).
Once the Protoss is on two base, the Zerg is either going to have to try and bust it down right here right now or take a third. Stargate helps immensely with both those situations, as either you have Void Rays to defend early aggression (even if the Zerg went quick Hydras, they wouldn't be in any significant number at that particular point) or to delay their third base. Then with Phoenix flying around, the Zerg then goes "Okay, I need X in order to deal with this harass."
Once the Protoss sees which avenue the Zerg is going, he adapts his unit composition accordingly. If there is an abundance of Hydras, Carriers seems to be the method of choice in dealing with them (I don't know personally, but Carriers don't seem like they are "hard countered" by Hydras). Lots of Corrupters? Void Rays. Infestors? Go for High Templar. Admittedly it sounds easy (since every game of SC2 you should be thinking about how to respond to the opponent in the best way) but because the Phoenix force a response while at the same time scouting said response, it gives you a bit of a window to get the units you need before the big clash occurs. Even though you don't know what's going to hatch out of those eggs, a quick click on that tech building in construction always let you know what's coming (and again, you're flying around at warp speed inside his base).
I don't think the strength of the build is so much it's raw unit composition, as it is it's ability to adapt easily to varying Zerg strategies. Since Zerg don't possess any kind of super amazing stealth unit, the role of Observers is not nearly as needed as you have some "airborn zerglings" scouting around, and the only area where detection is absolutely needed is at your base, where you have some cannons set up.
I definitely intend to test this out. I think Carrier is a truly neglected unit, and they can still be beastly vs Corrupters if you make sure to keep upgrading. And though they don't completely mop the floor with the entire ground army once they reach critical mass like Colossus do, they are also not quite AS easily countered. I've been seeing a lot of pro games where the once "imba unstoppable Protoss Colossus/Voidray combo" be steamrolled by a ton of corrupters. This build is not quite as fragile as its tier 3 facesmasher is at least able to fight back vs. the corrupter. Anyways, I've rambled on enough I think. Nice build, I like it... Definitely needs some tweaks and further testing... But I would not (and am not) dismissing this as a viable build as it has a lot of "wiggle room" which allows for easy adaptation to what your opponent is going.
Also, if I were playing this I would definitely try and get a Mothership out before Carrier production began. Mothership offers SO much mobility it's crazy. I usually just keep her parked at home, go all in vs an expansion of an opponent, and if their forces are going to destroy mine or if they're going for a counterattack, Mass Recall is just soooooo good. Usually you're able to snipe an expo with minimal losses while at the same time being completely able to come back at a moments notice to either retreat or defend your base. Mothership is a highly unused unit but I love it a LOT. If I were you, I would test it out a little bit and see how it goes.
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I think you should begin Carrier production first, and then start the mothership, as Carriers take a looong time to build, while you can only have one Mothership.
And yeah, whoever asked, Carriers with some sort of upgrades destroy upgraded hydras. Throw in a handful of chargelots and it's a carnage.
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I don't see this working against a roach with burrow push. They come in, target your two cannons down, then start killing buildings then regening for the next building. Also, this build seems built around the fact that hydras suck... they dont! Really, if you don't have collosi, mass hydras really will kill you (ie once they realise there is too much gas going into air for you to go collosi, they dont need to make roaches)
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Since you can only have one Mothership that's why I would go for it first. Having that energy buildup makes her so much more useful than just a freshly build Mothership... Nevermind that there are all sorts of things you can do ranging from making a hidden expo (I've done this before in team games... Park a Mothership above a new expo and cloak it up... Sometimes it takes a bit before the opponent(s) will catch onto the fact that there is indeed some action going on there. Nevermind that it helps with covering your bases as this army isn't very mobile. You can cover a weak spot with a Mothership and Vortex whatever's assaulting it, buying you enough time to deal with either another attack or at least move into position.
Nevermind it is much trickier to save up that 400 gas when you start pumping those Carriers. I tend to try and get the "big investments" out of the way first, freeing you up to make the smaller stuff more consistently right after the fact.
EDIT @Above: Well, what timing are we talking here? A lot of people will say "This will fail to X timing push..." But what timing are we talking? A two base roach burrow push? Three base? It's very ambiguous and I feel like a lot of people are willing to try and disprove a strategy in order to "be correct" as opposed to trying to find the strengths within a strategy. Not saying this this strategy isn't flawed (because every strategy is flawed)... But just saying you'll waltz in with some burrowed Roaches at some indetermined time where you also managed to conjure up enough Hydras to keep the forces that are killing those roaches while getting to the cannons busy... It just seems very very situational. "Yeah, my best reaction to a fast expand is by having a bunch of Blue Flame Hellions since they won't have much in the ways to defend it!"
That's what some of these comments feel like to me... A lot of the solutions are things that the Zerg player would have to have gearing towards right off the bat instead of going "Oh gee... He's got Stargates... I know! Burrowed roaches! BAM!". Because the time needed to get all those crucial upgrades simply buys the Protoss time to either do the economic damage he needed and/or build up forces to a sufficient level that it would almost be moot. Don't get me wrong, burrowed roaches are great... But lets face it, when they're burrowed they aren't killing anything. So even if you can't detect them they aren't directly killing you. If your Roach numbers dwindle too much each time they unburrow, then even if they can't detect them you won't be able to do significant enough damage.
Like I said, we can all come up with magical scenarios all we want... But when there is no timestamp offered on the scenario, it really is just fantasy. It's like saying I'm going to transition from a ton of Barracks the whole game into Battlecruisers... It takes time and resources to get those Battlecruisers and that's why if you're going with a ton of Barracks aggression that it probably wouldn't mesh very well. My point is you can't just go for such a specialized strategy immediately unless you were gearing towards it in the first place, or if you happen to have enough components running anyway that you could feasibly transition into it with relative ease.
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Funnily enough I played someone who did this against me yesterday ^^
That massive phenix ball is just so hard to get rid of!
But after thinking and watching the replay, i think infestor/hydra is the key. One single funghal and your phenix ball is dead! Then you just need to hit a 3 base timing attack with Z and go out there and fucking kill him ^^
You will hit him before he can really mass up any carriers or void rays
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So i tried it against my teamm8 on terminus re and it worked pretty well... I used early mothership to prevent battles and it safed my ass, also it was first time i tried it so i did mistakes... http://screplays.com/replays/freizy/17643
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On March 22 2011 11:02 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 10:06 Gemini_19 wrote:
So I've faced a problem..
Muta/Corruptor
Muta's in large numbers massacre phoenix as it is...but now corruptors are in the fight as well just making the zerg not back up when he sees the phoenix. I can't kill nearly enough muta's and then he just rolls over me.
I can't attack either since he has a giant wall of spine crawlers across the map as well as lings. If they're turtling with spines that bad just tech to HT and canon up hard, or honestly when I've seen muta/corrupter I just push at their base before they can mass too many, lings fail ahrd vs zealots and sentrys and your couple voidrays should help you just nuke the spine crawlers, I personally don't make as many phoenix as you guys are, I stop anywhere form 6-10 and then i pump voidrays until i have about 6 or so.
That's what I tried. I'll rewatch the replay later today and see what I could have done where.
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So are there so far any progamer who's tried this build out? I'd be thrilled to see a refined version of this build. It reminds me of HuK's old funday monday stuff, where you had to build a carrier before you were allowed to expand.
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EPT
