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On March 23 2011 04:50 Euronyme wrote:
So are there so far any progamer who's tried this build out? I'd be thrilled to see a refined version of this build. It reminds me of HuK's old funday monday stuff, where you had to build a carrier before you were allowed to expand.
You mean Day[9]'s Funday Monday? Also that's a carrier rush, this is by no means a carrier rush.
After watching the GSTL Twilight fOu did a double stargate play against Fruitdealer except he messed up a lot. + Show Spoiler +
On March 22 2011 10:41 songers wrote:
I've been trying this strategy and it is a lot of fun. I was actually getting tired of SC because it seems like the typical thing for protoss to do in all three match ups is to get colossus.
Like a previous poster said, I'm having fun again!
And I win too. That's a good bonus!
Glad you're enjoying it :D
On March 22 2011 14:35 Pwere wrote:
I think you should begin Carrier production first, and then start the mothership, as Carriers take a looong time to build, while you can only have one Mothership.
And yeah, whoever asked, Carriers with some sort of upgrades destroy upgraded hydras. Throw in a handful of chargelots and it's a carnage.
I don't begin carrier production until i get a 3rd up and running, cause you really need 6 gas to support carriers and gateway units and all the upgrades. But ya I make a ton of zealots, they are so good at their jobs and now that the patch has buffed their charge they'll do their jobs even better :D
On March 22 2011 15:35 Douillos wrote:
Funnily enough I played someone who did this against me yesterday ^^
That massive phenix ball is just so hard to get rid of!
But after thinking and watching the replay, i think infestor/hydra is the key. One single funghal and your phenix ball is dead! Then you just need to hit a 3 base timing attack with Z and go out there and fucking kill him ^^
You will hit him before he can really mass up any carriers or void rays
Well I don't personally go for the phoenix ball, I go for 6-10 phoenix and then I switch into voidray production, but I do think infesters are going to be the bane of this stargate play, especially with the new patch.
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On March 23 2011 03:57 Gemini_19 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 11:02 Hierarch wrote:On March 22 2011 10:06 Gemini_19 wrote:
So I've faced a problem..
Muta/Corruptor
Muta's in large numbers massacre phoenix as it is...but now corruptors are in the fight as well just making the zerg not back up when he sees the phoenix. I can't kill nearly enough muta's and then he just rolls over me.
I can't attack either since he has a giant wall of spine crawlers across the map as well as lings. If they're turtling with spines that bad just tech to HT and canon up hard, or honestly when I've seen muta/corrupter I just push at their base before they can mass too many, lings fail ahrd vs zealots and sentrys and your couple voidrays should help you just nuke the spine crawlers, I personally don't make as many phoenix as you guys are, I stop anywhere form 6-10 and then i pump voidrays until i have about 6 or so. That's what I tried. I'll rewatch the replay later today and see what I could have done where.
I just feel that a strong voidray/gateway push would break a spine crawler defense, and you can put 4 canons in each of your mineral lines and muta/corrupter won't do enough damage anytime fast.
On March 22 2011 14:57 LAN-f34r wrote:
I don't see this working against a roach with burrow push. They come in, target your two cannons down, then start killing buildings then regening for the next building. Also, this build seems built around the fact that hydras suck... they dont! Really, if you don't have collosi, mass hydras really will kill you (ie once they realise there is too much gas going into air for you to go collosi, they dont need to make roaches)
Roach speed/burrow movement and then burrow itself is quite expensive, it means most of your tech is going to be in roaches, and when is this attack coming? as soon as I see mass roach rallying in your base or moving across the map, I throw up another canon or 2, and start a robotics. My main army of zealots/sentrys/stalkers along with 1-3 voidrays will be at the front of my base near my canons. When your roaches attempt to sneak in my base they get detected by my canons and get zapped and attacked by all my units, are you saying you'd continue on and ignore the losses of a lot of your roaches to attempt to kill my 2-4 canons? Hardly seems effective, all the while I can be picking drones up in your base with my phoenix.
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On March 22 2011 13:49 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I really like the concept of this build. What I like about it a lot is that instead of the Zerg trying to react to the Protoss (which is what usually happens) the Protoss is reacting to the Zerg by basically opening up with a strategy that forces a reaction. With Phoenix harass I think it's pretty clear that the Zerg player has a multitude of avenues to take in order to deal with it... Hydras, Corrupters, Infestors... You name it. But the key to this build is not simply just saying "I'm going to make this unit composition and I will be unstoppable vs Zerg!". No, it's not that at all... Instead the Protoss opens with one of the safest openings possible (Btw, that last game you posted Hierarch I feel that you would have benefited from more Sentries as you were strapped for minerals and had WAYYYYY too much gas when you were getting your second base started up. Either start the 3rd and 4th gas geysers later or make more sentries would be my suggestion for the future).
Once the Protoss is on two base, the Zerg is either going to have to try and bust it down right here right now or take a third. Stargate helps immensely with both those situations, as either you have Void Rays to defend early aggression (even if the Zerg went quick Hydras, they wouldn't be in any significant number at that particular point) or to delay their third base. Then with Phoenix flying around, the Zerg then goes "Okay, I need X in order to deal with this harass."
Once the Protoss sees which avenue the Zerg is going, he adapts his unit composition accordingly. If there is an abundance of Hydras, Carriers seems to be the method of choice in dealing with them (I don't know personally, but Carriers don't seem like they are "hard countered" by Hydras). Lots of Corrupters? Void Rays. Infestors? Go for High Templar. Admittedly it sounds easy (since every game of SC2 you should be thinking about how to respond to the opponent in the best way) but because the Phoenix force a response while at the same time scouting said response, it gives you a bit of a window to get the units you need before the big clash occurs. Even though you don't know what's going to hatch out of those eggs, a quick click on that tech building in construction always let you know what's coming (and again, you're flying around at warp speed inside his base).
I don't think the strength of the build is so much it's raw unit composition, as it is it's ability to adapt easily to varying Zerg strategies. Since Zerg don't possess any kind of super amazing stealth unit, the role of Observers is not nearly as needed as you have some "airborn zerglings" scouting around, and the only area where detection is absolutely needed is at your base, where you have some cannons set up.
I definitely intend to test this out. I think Carrier is a truly neglected unit, and they can still be beastly vs Corrupters if you make sure to keep upgrading. And though they don't completely mop the floor with the entire ground army once they reach critical mass like Colossus do, they are also not quite AS easily countered. I've been seeing a lot of pro games where the once "imba unstoppable Protoss Colossus/Voidray combo" be steamrolled by a ton of corrupters. This build is not quite as fragile as its tier 3 facesmasher is at least able to fight back vs. the corrupter. Anyways, I've rambled on enough I think. Nice build, I like it... Definitely needs some tweaks and further testing... But I would not (and am not) dismissing this as a viable build as it has a lot of "wiggle room" which allows for easy adaptation to what your opponent is going.
Also, if I were playing this I would definitely try and get a Mothership out before Carrier production began. Mothership offers SO much mobility it's crazy. I usually just keep her parked at home, go all in vs an expansion of an opponent, and if their forces are going to destroy mine or if they're going for a counterattack, Mass Recall is just soooooo good. Usually you're able to snipe an expo with minimal losses while at the same time being completely able to come back at a moments notice to either retreat or defend your base. Mothership is a highly unused unit but I love it a LOT. If I were you, I would test it out a little bit and see how it goes.
Couldn't have said it better myself, hope you enjoy this strategy and feel free to post feedback :D
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On March 23 2011 05:01 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 04:50 Euronyme wrote:
So are there so far any progamer who's tried this build out? I'd be thrilled to see a refined version of this build. It reminds me of HuK's old funday monday stuff, where you had to build a carrier before you were allowed to expand. You mean Day[9]'s Funday Monday? Also that's a carrier rush, this is by no means a carrier rush. After watching the GSTL Twilight fOu did a double stargate play against Fruitdealer except he messed up a lot. + Show Spoiler +
I mean the funday monday HuK was on. I don't know anyone but day9 doing funday mondays, so that ought to be obvious :p It was admittedly a bit clumsily written though.
So far I've only seen carriers against terran in the highest levels of play, and only once successfully (the hongun gsl game way back).
It'll be interesting to check out the replays, but still. I feel like it's required to be tested, refined and approved by a progamer to be considered a solid, good build.
Dunno, just my opinion though.
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On March 23 2011 10:24 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 05:01 Hierarch wrote:On March 23 2011 04:50 Euronyme wrote:
So are there so far any progamer who's tried this build out? I'd be thrilled to see a refined version of this build. It reminds me of HuK's old funday monday stuff, where you had to build a carrier before you were allowed to expand. You mean Day[9]'s Funday Monday? Also that's a carrier rush, this is by no means a carrier rush. After watching the GSTL Twilight fOu did a double stargate play against Fruitdealer except he messed up a lot. + Show Spoiler + I mean the funday monday HuK was on. I don't know anyone but day9 doing funday mondays, so that ought to be obvious :p It was admittedly a bit clumsily written though. So far I've only seen carriers against terran in the highest levels of play, and only once successfully (the hongun gsl game way back). It'll be interesting to check out the replays, but still. I feel like it's required to be tested, refined and approved by a progamer to be considered a solid, good build. Dunno, just my opinion though.
Sure, I'm just trying to validate the strategy as a viable build :D
I also have found that a pretty late transition into carriers works wonders, and a lot of voidrays with good ff's + chargelots work wonders, I mean like 10+ voids lol :D
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197539.jpg)
A really fun and epic game (in my opinion) I played against my friend. This game does show how well carriers do vs hydras and corrupters. Enjoy :D
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I feel I must say this as I mentioned it before... Imagine in any one of those epic battles how different it would have been if you'd had a Mothership in the mix. Nevermind the necessity of needing a couple of Overseers to spot the army (you can easily keep big momma at the back of the engagement... Especially since she's super fat and slow). Also consider if you were able to send a fleet of Carriers to one of the outlying expos and recall back if he decided to counter. I really feel like Mothership is absolutely key in this matchup, as the tech to it is 100% natural and it is such a potent unit vs Zerg. Even if you can't Archon toilet anymore, theres something to be said about throwing a ton of Zealots into the Vortex and having them ready to dish out some pain when they pop out.
Plus the added bonus is that it keeps your Carriers alive long enough to do the critical damage they need to do, since even with detection, the opponent is likely going to target the Mothership in the battle. I'm a huge believer in big momma, as she is so difficult to deal with when you have a nice army to support her.
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197545.jpg)
I got them carriers, and I gotta say.... awesome.
Both of us didn't play our best, and I floated like 3k minerals at one point, but this was a fun game. We were basically dead even until the last couple of minutes when my upgrades overpowered anything he had. He threw everything at me that game, infestors, banelings, mutas, corruptors, ultras, hydras, roaches... that was probably his error..should have massed one unit over another..
watched your game, hierarch, that looked really fun. I think we've proven that it can work, with adjustments to what the zerg is doing, but I don't think this build is refined as well as it should be. Even you float 1k 1k numerous times. Also, I think if carriers is the end game unit of choice, its better to get 10+ of them with +3 attack, anything less can get stomped by a competent player.
I'll spend the better part of tomorrow racking my brain for a good flow of buildings/units on 2+ bases. Something tells me fast +3 shields with archons can be devastating >:D
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On March 23 2011 13:49 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:
I feel I must say this as I mentioned it before... Imagine in any one of those epic battles how different it would have been if you'd had a Mothership in the mix. Nevermind the necessity of needing a couple of Overseers to spot the army (you can easily keep big momma at the back of the engagement... Especially since she's super fat and slow). Also consider if you were able to send a fleet of Carriers to one of the outlying expos and recall back if he decided to counter. I really feel like Mothership is absolutely key in this matchup, as the tech to it is 100% natural and it is such a potent unit vs Zerg. Even if you can't Archon toilet anymore, theres something to be said about throwing a ton of Zealots into the Vortex and having them ready to dish out some pain when they pop out.
Plus the added bonus is that it keeps your Carriers alive long enough to do the critical damage they need to do, since even with detection, the opponent is likely going to target the Mothership in the battle. I'm a huge believer in big momma, as she is so difficult to deal with when you have a nice army to support her.
I actually just forgot to get one lol, just slipped my mind in the heat of playing. I usually get one and I agree mothership is totally worth it and helps a ton :D
On March 23 2011 14:16 mamuto wrote:I got them carriers, and I gotta say.... awesome. Both of us didn't play our best, and I floated like 3k minerals at one point, but this was a fun game. We were basically dead even until the last couple of minutes when my upgrades overpowered anything he had. He threw everything at me that game, infestors, banelings, mutas, corruptors, ultras, hydras, roaches... that was probably his error..should have massed one unit over another.. watched your game, hierarch, that looked really fun. I think we've proven that it can work, with adjustments to what the zerg is doing, but I don't think this build is refined as well as it should be. Even you float 1k 1k numerous times. Also, I think if carriers is the end game unit of choice, its better to get 10+ of them with +3 attack, anything less can get stomped by a competent player. I'll spend the better part of tomorrow racking my brain for a good flow of buildings/units on 2+ bases. Something tells me fast +3 shields with archons can be devastating >:D
Archons are ridiculous against zerg, I should be making them more tbh lol, I forgot to get my dark shrine in my game and DT's would have helped so much. The floating money part just has to do with not as refined mechanics lol XD
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On March 23 2011 13:49 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:
I feel I must say this as I mentioned it before... Imagine in any one of those epic battles how different it would have been if you'd had a Mothership in the mix. Nevermind the necessity of needing a couple of Overseers to spot the army (you can easily keep big momma at the back of the engagement... Especially since she's super fat and slow). Also consider if you were able to send a fleet of Carriers to one of the outlying expos and recall back if he decided to counter. I really feel like Mothership is absolutely key in this matchup, as the tech to it is 100% natural and it is such a potent unit vs Zerg. Even if you can't Archon toilet anymore, theres something to be said about throwing a ton of Zealots into the Vortex and having them ready to dish out some pain when they pop out.
Plus the added bonus is that it keeps your Carriers alive long enough to do the critical damage they need to do, since even with detection, the opponent is likely going to target the Mothership in the battle. I'm a huge believer in big momma, as she is so difficult to deal with when you have a nice army to support her.
brilliant. I just found something to sink my gas/minerals on upon getting my third base :D
and, if I will be going for fast +3 air attack and +3 shields, thats +3 shields on a 350 shield unit... seems promising, CrAzEdMiKe.
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in PvZ, I go Cannon Contain into Mass Phoenix with a VR follow up. I do this since I can easily chrono out a few VR's if they use roaches to bust the contain (i'll have plenty of time between losing the cannons and the roaches arriving at my front door), and Mutas (The most common response I've seen to cannon contains in Bronze ZvP) are utterly worthless vs Phoenix. I usually have enough minerals floating around to grab my expansion and throw cannons around the mineral line/tech while I am waiting on Cyber Core and my first Stargate. If I am not forced to pump VRs prematurely, I'll usually start pumping them out after 6 or 8 Phoenix are out since this number of them are usually able to cripple the zerg economy even if Spore Cannons are laid out while I'm getting my VRs. Not sure how this style would fare at higher levels, I imagine that higher level zerg would be able to break the contain before I can get my first Stargate via their Roaches, or they are more likely to Nydus Network all-in than they are going for Mutas.
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New game from the ladder, 1st time playing this map, my build was a bit delayed/non optimal and my phoenix harass was lackluster. But lucky for me phoenix provide amazing scouting :D
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197708.jpg)
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How would you deal with mass hydra, im talking like 40-45 with equal upgrades to you?
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On March 24 2011 13:23 mamuto wrote:
How would you deal with mass hydra, im talking like 40-45 with equal upgrades to you?
Carriers, ff's, zealots and archons. Or when I scout it I could throw down a robo bay and make 2-4 colossus or I could get storm. Lots of options since phoenix give me such great scouting :D
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In the GSTL + Show Spoiler +SlayerS Alicia showed how you could stop a baneling bust effectively and then punish it using Double Stargate play so all the people saying that early baneling pressure would break my strategy it has been shown defendable on a pro level
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On March 25 2011 07:55 Hierarch wrote:In the GSTL + Show Spoiler +SlayerS Alicia showed how you could stop a baneling bust effectively and then punish it using Double Stargate play so all the people saying that early baneling pressure would break my strategy it has been shown defendable on a pro level
He also used a very nicely played out proxy void ray + warp-in in PvT.
Still not seeing carriers tho. :<
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New infestors shut this down so hard now :/
You need Voidrays to combat Corruptors but with new Infestors, they can kill your Voidrays without even engaging with their Corruptors 
It could work if you have Templar, but that is so hard to do if you are going pure Stargate tech.
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this is a great build, i'm enjoying sc2 alot more without the colossus right now! and also, now i can win against those mutas. thx for sharing your strategy
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Zerg t3 can not attack air units!
I like that. Well said sir.
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United States7483 Posts
Infestors aren't that big a concern, I've had a lot of success over the past couple of days utilizing high templar drops for feedbacking them before running my phoenix in to pick off more ovies.
I should point out, that the new infestors are actually worse against phoenix harass: they do the same damage but the stun duration is cut in half. Their previous strength was to stun the phoenix, then hydras would kill them all before you could run. Now, you have a much better chance of getting them away. The difference is that zerg is now more likely to blindly get infestors as part of his plan.
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EPT
