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This is a very gas heavy build especially when you want to throw in the colossi, which I believe means you need either 2 base + extended period of time with no loses or 3+ bases with full gas saturation. I mean all toss air units are 100+ gas, collois are 200 each, each gate is 150, a robo is 100, and beacon/bay both are 200, so even if this does manage to come out their will be very little upgrades since most gas would go to production.
SO as zerg the way to defend against this is definitely by using spore crawlers, extra queens, and hydra, while being aggressive with speedlings/speed banes. If the Zerg can make a solid T2 push during the mid game between 15-20mins with tons of hydras supported by lings and creep high way he can win.
Spores = assist queens/hydra with defense and provides detection for DTs
Extra Queens = counter to early phoenix/void ray pushes and eventually can be used to further assist in creep spread for final attack
Hydra =Use initially for defense and later for game ending push. Hydra are basically the best anti-air unit in this case due to their DPS, good range with upgrade, decent hp, and lack of not being flying or massive unit to avoid phoenix damage(unless lifted) and the void bonus.
Ling/banes = Cheap, numerous, and mobile unit used to harass, distract, kill zealots, deactivate buildings, kill probes, and scout map. Due to the cost, speed, and numbers lings are easy to repopulate your army making attacks possible at any point. Then with banes and only zealots on the ground can easily do damage to the toss macro since after the zealots where does their damage go? The fact is the zerg will lose his units but in such great numbers that for a period of time during an attack the zerg can ignores the air units and if needed retreat with superior mobility. Carriers are slow units, which can easily be retreated from, the voids are single target attacking units, and the phoenixes can lift but the number of units would this make that much of a difference and worth the energy? Basically these are your throw away units used to delay, harass, distract and contain as much as possible.
TLDR = Queens/spore defense, use lings/banes to harass/delay/distract/contain, tech to hydra, build creep high way, attack with hydra/ling/bane during midgame, and prevent toss from getting 3+ bases so he does not have enough gas intake to support mass stargate + robo.
Just my thoughts
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Someone tried that on me at diamond level. Maybe his timings were off but it dies to a mid-game two hatch hydra only bust with aggressive creep.
The idea is that you defend until you have enough hydras. Hydras prevent any attack from the protoss air so you can take a 3rd quick or go on the offensive as you have a decent amount. Toss can't really kill your creep (no observer :S) and on xelnaga for exemple, the highway comes very fast to the protoss door. Push with hydras, spread creep while you push, win. That was the outcome. Carriers made me laugh when he had them, you need to not target fire with hydra and you'll kill the interceptors in no time. And 4/5 carriers with 1 interceptor each is kinda bad against 20 hydras.
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We need more carriers in games. They are just too expensive though, and tale too long to build. Maybe they will be buffed in patch 1.4!
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On March 26 2011 01:49 Ageless wrote:
We need more carriers in games. They are just too expensive though, and tale too long to build. Maybe they will be buffed in patch 1.4!
Agreed, when it takes 350 gas alone to get the structures to build a 250 gas unit that takes for ever to get out, I don't see much use for it after the first attack/defend with them since it is not like you can reinforce your army any time soon with them.
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I see a few problems with this build that will IMHO make it completely unplayable:
1) 3-gate into Expand and then into Air-Units is very susceptible to 2+ Base Speedling-Baneling attacks (No all-in, just Sauron-Zerg the hell out of the Toss...). If I'm able to execute this strat without having to adapt too much to maybe 4-warpgates into expansion etc. the only thing that really works against mass-base Speedling/Baneling+later on drops etc. is mass-gateway-play (Blinkstalkers+Archons+HT's).
2) Hydras alone will totally pwn anything from the Toss if he does not have any AoE whatsoever. I can maybe see that heavy Armor-Upgraded Zealots with Legs could could tank the Hydras and hold them on distance to the Carriers/VR's, but you'd have to extensively playtest that.
3) You wouldn't have to make Corruptors, cuz the Hydras are incredibly good against Air and Gateway-Units from the Toss, so theres no risk of over- or underproducing Corruptors.
4) If you don't have to make Roaches, cuz Hydras get pwned so hard by Collossi, the Zerg will actually have a strong maxed-out Army and could win in a straight-up fight, just cuz Hydras are so effective against anything but Toss-AoE.
So if the Zerg scouts well and reacts by just massing Hydras, Speedlings and maybe some Infestors, I don't see a chance for this build to be effective.
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On March 25 2011 20:16 MaryJoana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 07:55 Hierarch wrote:In the GSTL + Show Spoiler +SlayerS Alicia showed how you could stop a baneling bust effectively and then punish it using Double Stargate play so all the people saying that early baneling pressure would break my strategy it has been shown defendable on a pro level He also used a very nicely played out proxy void ray + warp-in in PvT. Still not seeing carriers tho. :<
I mean in that situation I wouldn't have made carriers either since voids win the game lol
On March 25 2011 20:21 Dommk wrote:New infestors shut this down so hard now :/ You need Voidrays to combat Corruptors but with new Infestors, they can kill your Voidrays without even engaging with their Corruptors  It could work if you have Templar, but that is so hard to do if you are going pure Stargate tech.
What's the range on infesters FG? Also it's not that expensive to get the templar archives and then not research storm and mix in 4-5 templar, I think Feedback range is higher than infester FG range. Also Infesters are incredibly gas intensive, so to be fair they won't have nearly the same amount of corrupters and/or hydras they could have had.
On March 25 2011 23:12 gertg wrote:
this is a great build, i'm enjoying sc2 alot more without the colossus right now! and also, now i can win against those mutas. thx for sharing your strategy
No problem, glad you're enjoying it, the game does seem more fun without colossus :D
On March 25 2011 23:50 Whitewing wrote:
Infestors aren't that big a concern, I've had a lot of success over the past couple of days utilizing high templar drops for feedbacking them before running my phoenix in to pick off more ovies.
I should point out, that the new infestors are actually worse against phoenix harass: they do the same damage but the stun duration is cut in half. Their previous strength was to stun the phoenix, then hydras would kill them all before you could run. Now, you have a much better chance of getting them away. The difference is that zerg is now more likely to blindly get infestors as part of his plan.
This is true, another good part about less stun duration is that phoenix can then run and pick up the infesters, infesters get killed by phoenix quite fast due to their low hp, and HT can always feedback them.
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On March 26 2011 01:22 P0ckets wrote:
This is a very gas heavy build especially when you want to throw in the colossi, which I believe means you need either 2 base + extended period of time with no loses or 3+ bases with full gas saturation. I mean all toss air units are 100+ gas, collois are 200 each, each gate is 150, a robo is 100, and beacon/bay both are 200, so even if this does manage to come out their will be very little upgrades since most gas would go to production.
SO as zerg the way to defend against this is definitely by using spore crawlers, extra queens, and hydra, while being aggressive with speedlings/speed banes. If the Zerg can make a solid T2 push during the mid game between 15-20mins with tons of hydras supported by lings and creep high way he can win.
Spores = assist queens/hydra with defense and provides detection for DTs
Extra Queens = counter to early phoenix/void ray pushes and eventually can be used to further assist in creep spread for final attack
Hydra =Use initially for defense and later for game ending push. Hydra are basically the best anti-air unit in this case due to their DPS, good range with upgrade, decent hp, and lack of not being flying or massive unit to avoid phoenix damage(unless lifted) and the void bonus.
Ling/banes = Cheap, numerous, and mobile unit used to harass, distract, kill zealots, deactivate buildings, kill probes, and scout map. Due to the cost, speed, and numbers lings are easy to repopulate your army making attacks possible at any point. Then with banes and only zealots on the ground can easily do damage to the toss macro since after the zealots where does their damage go? The fact is the zerg will lose his units but in such great numbers that for a period of time during an attack the zerg can ignores the air units and if needed retreat with superior mobility. Carriers are slow units, which can easily be retreated from, the voids are single target attacking units, and the phoenixes can lift but the number of units would this make that much of a difference and worth the energy? Basically these are your throw away units used to delay, harass, distract and contain as much as possible.
TLDR = Queens/spore defense, use lings/banes to harass/delay/distract/contain, tech to hydra, build creep high way, attack with hydra/ling/bane during midgame, and prevent toss from getting 3+ bases so he does not have enough gas intake to support mass stargate + robo.
Just my thoughts
Your points are fine except for the fact that this build is designed not to build colossus, so I don't understand why you even mentioned colossus in my strategy.
On March 26 2011 01:31 Bellygareth wrote:
Someone tried that on me at diamond level. Maybe his timings were off but it dies to a mid-game two hatch hydra only bust with aggressive creep.
The idea is that you defend until you have enough hydras. Hydras prevent any attack from the protoss air so you can take a 3rd quick or go on the offensive as you have a decent amount. Toss can't really kill your creep (no observer :S) and on xelnaga for exemple, the highway comes very fast to the protoss door. Push with hydras, spread creep while you push, win. That was the outcome. Carriers made me laugh when he had them, you need to not target fire with hydra and you'll kill the interceptors in no time. And 4/5 carriers with 1 interceptor each is kinda bad against 20 hydras.
I started getting my robo a lot earlier for this reason just for an observer or two. As long as I keep the creep back enough that Hydras can't attack me with creep close by I feel it's manageable.
On March 26 2011 02:00 P0ckets wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 01:49 Ageless wrote:
We need more carriers in games. They are just too expensive though, and tale too long to build. Maybe they will be buffed in patch 1.4! Agreed, when it takes 350 gas alone to get the structures to build a 250 gas unit that takes for ever to get out, I don't see much use for it after the first attack/defend with them since it is not like you can reinforce your army any time soon with them.
The point of them is use as a support/siege unit like the colossus, and with voidrays and 4 or so carriers after you win a major battle you can refill your army from 4 stargates with carriers and hit that critical mass.
But I personally would LOVE a carrier buff in the next patch :D
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On March 26 2011 02:18 kickinhead wrote:
I see a few problems with this build that will IMHO make it completely unplayable:
1) 3-gate into Expand and then into Air-Units is very susceptible to 2+ Base Speedling-Baneling attacks (No all-in, just Sauron-Zerg the hell out of the Toss...). If I'm able to execute this strat without having to adapt too much to maybe 4-warpgates into expansion etc. the only thing that really works against mass-base Speedling/Baneling+later on drops etc. is mass-gateway-play (Blinkstalkers+Archons+HT's).
2) Hydras alone will totally pwn anything from the Toss if he does not have any AoE whatsoever. I can maybe see that heavy Armor-Upgraded Zealots with Legs could could tank the Hydras and hold them on distance to the Carriers/VR's, but you'd have to extensively playtest that.
3) You wouldn't have to make Corruptors, cuz the Hydras are incredibly good against Air and Gateway-Units from the Toss, so theres no risk of over- or underproducing Corruptors.
4) If you don't have to make Roaches, cuz Hydras get pwned so hard by Collossi, the Zerg will actually have a strong maxed-out Army and could win in a straight-up fight, just cuz Hydras are so effective against anything but Toss-AoE.
So if the Zerg scouts well and reacts by just massing Hydras, Speedlings and maybe some Infestors, I don't see a chance for this build to be effective.
you are very on hydras.a good toss will want to fight vs hydras.cause they dont own gw units not that effective.just watch mc games vs july.pure blink stalkers owned hydras bad.hydras are good if you are going to bust.
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On March 26 2011 02:18 kickinhead wrote:
I see a few problems with this build that will IMHO make it completely unplayable:
1) 3-gate into Expand and then into Air-Units is very susceptible to 2+ Base Speedling-Baneling attacks (No all-in, just Sauron-Zerg the hell out of the Toss...). If I'm able to execute this strat without having to adapt too much to maybe 4-warpgates into expansion etc. the only thing that really works against mass-base Speedling/Baneling+later on drops etc. is mass-gateway-play (Blinkstalkers+Archons+HT's).
2) Hydras alone will totally pwn anything from the Toss if he does not have any AoE whatsoever. I can maybe see that heavy Armor-Upgraded Zealots with Legs could could tank the Hydras and hold them on distance to the Carriers/VR's, but you'd have to extensively playtest that.
3) You wouldn't have to make Corruptors, cuz the Hydras are incredibly good against Air and Gateway-Units from the Toss, so theres no risk of over- or underproducing Corruptors.
4) If you don't have to make Roaches, cuz Hydras get pwned so hard by Collossi, the Zerg will actually have a strong maxed-out Army and could win in a straight-up fight, just cuz Hydras are so effective against anything but Toss-AoE.
So if the Zerg scouts well and reacts by just massing Hydras, Speedlings and maybe some Infestors, I don't see a chance for this build to be effective.
I'll answer point by point:
1) I have started getting hallucination now to get a much earlier scout in, and when I see high eco ling/bling I actually don't do this strategy, I go into standard colossus play and canon up. I had a game on xel naga where this happened to me, and I agree that 2 stargate play doesn't work against it effectively. But that's the beauty of using this standard opener, you can transition into basically anything you want.
2) I have extensively tested against hydras and unless on creep they don't stand a chance, they die too quickly to zealots with legs, archons, and carriers. They also are outranged by carriers and archons and zealots provide great buffers, also zealots cost no gas which makes them awesome.
3) I've had people try just 100% pure hydra and it works to defend, but it doesn't provide a very mobile offensive, and once you attack with hydras off creep you are committed to that attack.
4) Maxed hydras are actually not that good since they are so slow they have a hard time forming a concave in battles and ff's exacerbate that problem even more. Also if I see 100% pure hydra I will get storm instead of DT's.
This last line could be said of any race against any strategy, if you scout well and build counters it will have a good chance to beat the opposing strategy, it doesn't make the enemies strategy invalid or unviable.
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I am so excited to try this my pvz has been so boring and predictable I feel like every zerg could just blind counter it so something unusual is just what I am after.
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I've been experimenting with this on ladder and here's what I found. A roach/hydra push is defendable with good forcefields. Split the army in half and your voids/pheonices will clean up. The danger comes when your pheonices(that correct grammar?) are halfway across the map. Hydra/ling works well against this, especially with banes. However, if your pheonices pick up the banes then it can work out. Lastly, if they get roaches, you can usually win with the void ray timing. Also, when should I get my robo and my Dark Shrine? Anyways, very cool build!
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I've got a question for the OP:
Why would you first go for ground weapons +1 attack? I feel that (in my theorycrafting opinion) that you may want to put the emphasis on ground armor to keep zealots alive longer. Maybe even shield research would be worthwhile since it would benefit both your air and ground units.
Just a thought, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts
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On March 26 2011 03:07 ZoneofEnders wrote:
I am so excited to try this my pvz has been so boring and predictable I feel like every zerg could just blind counter it so something unusual is just what I am after.
Hope you enjoy it and have fun :D
On March 26 2011 03:19 ntvarify wrote:
I've been experimenting with this on ladder and here's what I found. A roach/hydra push is defendable with good forcefields. Split the army in half and your voids/pheonices will clean up. The danger comes when your pheonices(that correct grammar?) are halfway across the map. Hydra/ling works well against this, especially with banes. However, if your pheonices pick up the banes then it can work out. Lastly, if they get roaches, you can usually win with the void ray timing. Also, when should I get my robo and my Dark Shrine? Anyways, very cool build!
ya, always being mindful of where your phoenixes are and knowing when they are needed is something that is learned through experience, I usually get my robo When my natural is fully saturated, since a lot of zergs will burrow units at your 3rd and you need to start pushing the creep back. I get my Dark Shrine as more of a "feel" building, like when I feel it will be worth getting, but most of the time that timing is around when my 3rd is complete, but sometimes I get it later,DT's are the ultimate in "Surprise!" if zerg isn't on the ball they can lose hatches and a ton of drones to like 3-4 DT's.
On March 26 2011 03:29 ShamTao wrote:
I've got a question for the OP:
Why would you first go for ground weapons +1 attack? I feel that (in my theorycrafting opinion) that you may want to put the emphasis on ground armor to keep zealots alive longer. Maybe even shield research would be worthwhile since it would benefit both your air and ground units.
Just a thought, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts
Hmm, that's a very good point, I'll start going shields on ground units 1st and see how it works, thanks for the insight :D
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Ok Ive only lost twice to this strategy. It was roach hydras. The problem is that the roaches RAPE the zealots and archons.And then the mass of hydras just absolutely rape thie interceptors. The first battle is usually a stalemate but he can remax a LOT faster.
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On March 26 2011 03:41 SkaPunk wrote:
Ok Ive only lost twice to this strategy. It was roach hydras. The problem is that the roaches RAPE the zealots and archons.And then the mass of hydras just absolutely rape thie interceptors. The first battle is usually a stalemate but he can remax a LOT faster.
When I'm maxed I usually go up to 10-12 gateways and 4 stargates, I use ff's to separate hydras and roaches since most people put roaches in front, then my carriers and voidrays kill a lot of the roaches and I keep my gateway units back and once a lot of the roach numbers have been thinned I send in my gateway units to help. Also I usually keep 2-3 DT's in my army since overseers just get caught in the carnage by my air units and then DT's just do insane damage.
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As a zerg, I find that I have a friggin MISERABLE TIME trying to beat protoss if my third base gets slowed down - something that a gateway push doesn't really accomplish (ling/roach/bane/whatever can hold it) and a colossus push is too slow for (third is up and running before colossus push is ready). A void ray lasering my third hatch while I have to build shit to deal with phoenix harass would make me shit bricks - sure, I'll have anti air to deal with phoenix harass... but IN MY BASE, and not AT MY THIRD unless it's like tal'darim altar and my third is close enough to my base that I dont have to move that far off creep to get hydras/queens there.
I honestly feel like that's one of the major strengths - the ability to slow 3rd+ bases of the zerg. Less sure about the DT transition, but it would probably work OK since overseers have to fear for their lives and the zerg might not be able to handle taking a 4th/5th base against Air+DT.
upgraded Chargelots actually do pretty decently against hydras, too, without a roach front for them, and this play is going to make the zerg want to skew more heavily towards super-squishy hydras. Maybe adding storm at some point just to murder hydras even MORE, though storm is less helpful against corruptors (though corruptors won't save the zerg from the zealot heavy ground comp)
In terms of remaxing, if the zerg can only kill interceptors and not the carriers themselves, those "remax" basically instantly. (well, in time for the next fight for sure) Food for thought.
On March 26 2011 01:22 P0ckets wrote:
This is a very gas heavy build especially when you want to throw in the colossi, which I believe means you need either 2 base + extended period of time with no loses or 3+ bases with full gas saturation. I mean all toss air units are 100+ gas, collois are 200 each, each gate is 150, a robo is 100, and beacon/bay both are 200, so even if this does manage to come out their will be very little upgrades since most gas would go to production.
A) Colossi are nowhere in the game plan. Literally nowhere. Reread the game plan.
A.5) It's actually cheaper (in all 3: gas/mins/time) to go Stargate opening -> tech to carriers with catapult upgrade than it is to go Stargate -> Tech to colossi with range upgrade.
B) The build is designed for 3 bases with full gas saturation, and has a well-thought-out plan to get there on even terms.
On March 26 2011 02:18 kickinhead wrote:
I see a few problems with this build that will IMHO make it completely unplayable:
1) 3-gate into Expand and then into Air-Units is very susceptible to 2+ Base Speedling-Baneling attacks (No all-in, just Sauron-Zerg the hell out of the Toss...). If I'm able to execute this strat without having to adapt too much to maybe 4-warpgates into expansion etc. the only thing that really works against mass-base Speedling/Baneling+later on drops etc. is mass-gateway-play (Blinkstalkers+Archons+HT's).
2) Hydras alone will totally pwn anything from the Toss if he does not have any AoE whatsoever. I can maybe see that heavy Armor-Upgraded Zealots with Legs could could tank the Hydras and hold them on distance to the Carriers/VR's, but you'd have to extensively playtest that.
3) You wouldn't have to make Corruptors, cuz the Hydras are incredibly good against Air and Gateway-Units from the Toss, so theres no risk of over- or underproducing Corruptors.
4) If you don't have to make Roaches, cuz Hydras get pwned so hard by Collossi, the Zerg will actually have a strong maxed-out Army and could win in a straight-up fight, just cuz Hydras are so effective against anything but Toss-AoE.
So if the Zerg scouts well and reacts by just massing Hydras, Speedlings and maybe some Infestors, I don't see a chance for this build to be effective.
1) What? Sentries have the ability to shut down speedling/baneling attacks like, entirely. This build has A) the ability to adapt to such aggression and B) Cannons/At least 1 void ray to assist in this defense.
The weakest point in a 3gate expand, IMO, is when the protoss pressures the zerg with their sentry-zealot mix. The goal of such pressure is to force the zerg to quit droning without cares, but toss runs a risk of losing that push in the middle of the map. This build doesn't need to pressure as hard with this because it has void ray and phoenix en route which can pressure with pretty much zero risk of the retreat being cut off.
2) Carriers vs Hydras is skewed towards carriers. No really. Especially off-creep. Worst thing that happens is you lose some interceptors but kill some hydras and back off (hydras can't chase effectively) and interceptors are way cheaper than hydras.
which brings us to 3:
You do have to build corruptors, hydras can't handle carriers with no air support, as mentioned in 2.
4) Chargelots (the assigned mineral dump) will murder hydras cost for cost if you don't make any roaches.
Your theorycrafting has holes everywhere. I wants me some other people trying this out. I'm a mid diamond zerg looking to practice against this!
@OP - stick with the +1 attack for ground, IMO. It brings Zealot vs Hydralisk (a matchup you are expecting) from 6 hits (81 HP effectively.. 1 hp regens immediately) to 5 hits. From there, shields might be nice if the zerg doesn't get carapace.
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On March 26 2011 03:46 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 03:41 SkaPunk wrote:
Ok Ive only lost twice to this strategy. It was roach hydras. The problem is that the roaches RAPE the zealots and archons.And then the mass of hydras just absolutely rape thie interceptors. The first battle is usually a stalemate but he can remax a LOT faster. When I'm maxed I usually go up to 10-12 gateways and 4 stargates, I use ff's to separate hydras and roaches since most people put roaches in front, then my carriers and voidrays kill a lot of the roaches and I keep my gateway units back and once a lot of the roach numbers have been thinned I send in my gateway units to help. Also I usually keep 2-3 DT's in my army since overseers just get caught in the carnage by my air units and then DT's just do insane damage.
I like it, I like it. But if you separate the hydras cant they still pick off the interceptors?
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Mass void ray would probably be more effective against virtually all zerg unit compositions except infestor/hydra play.
Corruptor is the best counter in the game to the carrier because of its +massive damage and because of its base 2 armor. At even upgrades interceptors do 6 damage per volley to a corruptor.
Yes you can mix in void rays, but even if zerg loses battle one he'll outproduce you on the 2nd round.
Carriers are viable in virtually every MU until the opponent overproduces the counter unit to kill them.
What really should be mentioned is archons. Archons guarding the carriers will do tremendous damage to clumped corruptors, and magic boxing corruptors is not what zerg wants to do going into a carrier fight. It doesn't even require that many archons. Psi storm works in theory but in practice zerg can move his corruptors on top of your army to prevent you from storming.
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On March 26 2011 03:02 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 02:18 kickinhead wrote:
I see a few problems with this build that will IMHO make it completely unplayable:
1) 3-gate into Expand and then into Air-Units is very susceptible to 2+ Base Speedling-Baneling attacks (No all-in, just Sauron-Zerg the hell out of the Toss...). If I'm able to execute this strat without having to adapt too much to maybe 4-warpgates into expansion etc. the only thing that really works against mass-base Speedling/Baneling+later on drops etc. is mass-gateway-play (Blinkstalkers+Archons+HT's).
2) Hydras alone will totally pwn anything from the Toss if he does not have any AoE whatsoever. I can maybe see that heavy Armor-Upgraded Zealots with Legs could could tank the Hydras and hold them on distance to the Carriers/VR's, but you'd have to extensively playtest that.
3) You wouldn't have to make Corruptors, cuz the Hydras are incredibly good against Air and Gateway-Units from the Toss, so theres no risk of over- or underproducing Corruptors.
4) If you don't have to make Roaches, cuz Hydras get pwned so hard by Collossi, the Zerg will actually have a strong maxed-out Army and could win in a straight-up fight, just cuz Hydras are so effective against anything but Toss-AoE.
So if the Zerg scouts well and reacts by just massing Hydras, Speedlings and maybe some Infestors, I don't see a chance for this build to be effective. I'll answer point by point: 1) I have started getting hallucination now to get a much earlier scout in, and when I see high eco ling/bling I actually don't do this strategy, I go into standard colossus play and canon up. I had a game on xel naga where this happened to me, and I agree that 2 stargate play doesn't work against it effectively. But that's the beauty of using this standard opener, you can transition into basically anything you want. 2) I have extensively tested against hydras and unless on creep they don't stand a chance, they die too quickly to zealots with legs, archons, and carriers. They also are outranged by carriers and archons and zealots provide great buffers, also zealots cost no gas which makes them awesome. 3) I've had people try just 100% pure hydra and it works to defend, but it doesn't provide a very mobile offensive, and once you attack with hydras off creep you are committed to that attack. 4) Maxed hydras are actually not that good since they are so slow they have a hard time forming a concave in battles and ff's exacerbate that problem even more. Also if I see 100% pure hydra I will get storm instead of DT's. This last line could be said of any race against any strategy, if you scout well and build counters it will have a good chance to beat the opposing strategy, it doesn't make the enemies strategy invalid or unviable.
You're not considering an hydra "allin" kicking before you can get archons and maybe even speed for your zealots. On the smallest maps (2v2 maps), I see your strat fail to that hydra attack, which can be allin but it doesn't matter because it'll work and kill you right there.
I have no experience against it on the largest maps, but then again on largest maps zerg probably have other options and can try to harrass with lings against your slow carriers for ex. < I have yet to see how it plays out.
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On March 26 2011 04:17 SkaPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 03:46 Hierarch wrote:On March 26 2011 03:41 SkaPunk wrote:
Ok Ive only lost twice to this strategy. It was roach hydras. The problem is that the roaches RAPE the zealots and archons.And then the mass of hydras just absolutely rape thie interceptors. The first battle is usually a stalemate but he can remax a LOT faster. When I'm maxed I usually go up to 10-12 gateways and 4 stargates, I use ff's to separate hydras and roaches since most people put roaches in front, then my carriers and voidrays kill a lot of the roaches and I keep my gateway units back and once a lot of the roach numbers have been thinned I send in my gateway units to help. Also I usually keep 2-3 DT's in my army since overseers just get caught in the carnage by my air units and then DT's just do insane damage. I like it, I like it. But if you separate the hydras cant they still pick off the interceptors?
Hydras aren't like marines against interecepters, I think it has to do with the fact that they shoot a projectile while marines do damage instantaneously with their rifles, however I may be wrong but I feel like my intercepters survive longer vs hydras. Also if they're busy shooting intercepters, which do damage themselves, the rest of my army isn't being hit :D
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EPT
