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p and t have to pressure zerg. I think this is a basic concept of the game.
P can expo for free since his production facilities are also his bases. On 4 hatcheries with queens zerg can produce 28 drones in 45 seconds to saturate another base. Can toss or terran do this? If u leave a zerg unpressured he will get ahead in eco very very fast. 3 or 4 base protoss can be scary - but tier 3 zerg with tons of ressources and the ability to instantly remax is scary too.
In the game i posted i loose a maxed sling, roach, infestor, broodlord army to the protoss and when he pushes 30 seconds after this fight i kill all his air and colossus with 25 corruptors and clean up the remaining forces.
If anyone wants to put double stargate opening after sentry expand or forge expand vs zerg to the test i wil be only for the next couple of hours on eu server: HerrTrichter.
I will go for sling hydra push of you forge expand and i will go for sling, roach, infestor, queen mass eco if u go sentry expand.
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A zerg with good scouting + infestors would crush this I think.
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I've liked carrier transitions in PvZ for a long time. A build I often use looks something like:
3gate expo>robo+stargate>third base>carrier transition while using a colo/void/stalker/sentry ball to defend/set up a 4th.
Once you get a mothership out it seems unstoppable. Carrier collossus mothership stalker voidray sentry. Working in high templars since you'll be on 8 gas makes corrupters a completely impossible response, and I honestly think if you get into a position like that with all three tech trees open and a decent number of carriers you're unstoppable.
Builds like this (especially with pheonix harass) really pressure zergs into the aggressive position IMO, because otherwise they'll just lose to superior tech no matter what they build, although a ton of zergs haven't figured this out yet it seems.
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Infestors seem the most dangerous thing for this build to deal with. It seems you are relying mainly on phoenix with a few voids thrown in to keep the Zerg under alot of pressure early game, but if they can fungal a pack of raiding phoenix, a handful of hydras can just rip them apart. At this point, the Zerg could cut back on infestors and power air production; if you lose very many of those early phoenix, the mutas bounce makes it hard for even pheonix to deal with once the ball is up. Sentry support will negate that, but sentries would siphon massive amounts of gas, plus you would then have the highly mobile air force alongside what one of your least mobile units.
Basically, how do you prevent fungal play from either shutting down your harass or just straight up killing a chunk of your airfleet?
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Im definatly going to try this build next time I have a pvz
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On March 21 2011 20:28 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:
Don't know if this has been mensioned yet, sorry if it has, but wouldn't Roach (to shield the hydras from zealots), Hydra and infestor counter this quite well? FG the zealots and then infested terran under the carriers/ voidrays, or NP a carrier or two, or the mothership if it comes. Get some overseers to spot obs, DT's and units under the Mothership cloak. Then once the obs are out the way, burrow everything and move the roaches into a good possition, same with infestors, spawn infested terran from underground and then unburrow everything as they pop
So basically Roach Hydra Infestor and maybe some corruptors
If I see that many infesters, I would have transitioned into HT, and feedback would easily make sure I wouldn't have to deal with NP or FG and would probably be killing infesters also. If your only anti air is Hydra's then carriers would just win that fight since as you said the roaches would be in front of the hydras. Sure the hydras would be killing intercepters but I can replace those for 25 minerals while your hydras would just be dieing, or with some well placed ff's I could just separate your roaches and hydras and then the major engagement becoems my army vs a bunch of roaches and some hydras getting some shots in as opposed to your whole army.
Also, how are you dealing with phoenix harass? How many early game hydras are you going to have? Cause the more you make means the less gas you're going to have later for infesters. Phoenix can also fly in and lift infesters, making them useless spectators.
I agree that infester play could be strong but I feel that it will come down to HT vs infester, like HT vs Ghost. Also since I'd be going HT storm would be an obvious transition, and storm just owns Hydras.
On March 21 2011 22:51 Herr_Trichter wrote:
p and t have to pressure zerg. I think this is a basic concept of the game.
P can expo for free since his production facilities are also his bases. On 4 hatcheries with queens zerg can produce 28 drones in 45 seconds to saturate another base. Can toss or terran do this? If u leave a zerg unpressured he will get ahead in eco very very fast. 3 or 4 base protoss can be scary - but tier 3 zerg with tons of ressources and the ability to instantly remax is scary too.
In the game i posted i loose a maxed sling, roach, infestor, broodlord army to the protoss and when he pushes 30 seconds after this fight i kill all his air and colossus with 25 corruptors and clean up the remaining forces.
If anyone wants to put double stargate opening after sentry expand or forge expand vs zerg to the test i wil be only for the next couple of hours on eu server: HerrTrichter.
I will go for sling hydra push of you forge expand and i will go for sling, roach, infestor, queen mass eco if u go sentry expand.
How am I not pressuring zerg? Phoenix harass forces 2 spores at each base, maybe more. That's 6 drones, every gas you take, that's 6 drones. Every tech building and extra hatchery you make, those are drones. That's why Zerg can make drones so fast, they use them for everything other than combat (and sometimes they're used to fight). Also if you spend every single larva on drones, you'll die. I scout your bases, see the saturation and just go kill you. FF's and gateway units with my small air support can just run you over at that point.
Tier 3 zerg doesn't bother me at all with this build, broodlords and ultras are just a waste of supply and resources since they cannot shoot up. The game you posted was a horrible example, the guy opened with a 4gate and transitioned out of an all-in opening, of course you were going to win that game. He made like 6 stalkers early also instead of the cheaper sentrys and zealots. His expansion was late, and he went COLOSSUS, I have no idea why you keep bringing the colossus into this, the whole point of this build is to not make COLOSSUS...
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On March 21 2011 22:55 tubasteve wrote:
A zerg with good scouting + infestors would crush this I think.
HT nullify infesters, and if infesters were so good against gateway units and protoss in general like everyone seems to think they are, why aren't more people making them vs protoss? As soon as I see early infestation pit I make voidrays and just push with voids and gateway units.
On March 21 2011 23:47 Drunkasarous wrote:
Im definatly going to try this build next time I have a pvz
Please give some feedback if you can :D
On March 21 2011 23:41 salehonasi wrote:
Infestors seem the most dangerous thing for this build to deal with. It seems you are relying mainly on phoenix with a few voids thrown in to keep the Zerg under alot of pressure early game, but if they can fungal a pack of raiding phoenix, a handful of hydras can just rip them apart. At this point, the Zerg could cut back on infestors and power air production; if you lose very many of those early phoenix, the mutas bounce makes it hard for even pheonix to deal with once the ball is up. Sentry support will negate that, but sentries would siphon massive amounts of gas, plus you would then have the highly mobile air force alongside what one of your least mobile units.
Basically, how do you prevent fungal play from either shutting down your harass or just straight up killing a chunk of your airfleet?
If I see early early infesters like you're suggesting, that means all your gas is going into infesters soyour defending units will be a small amount of roaches, speed lings and queens. All I have to do is pull my remaining phoenix back, dual pump voidrays and do a 3 voidray or 5 voidray timing attack with gateway reinforcements. Even if you did go to transition into mutas, your spire takes a super long time to complete, and you won't have a high count of mutas since your infesters hogged all your early gas. Not to mention mutas certainly don't help you stop my attack. That's what I feel about early infesters for defensive purposes.
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the good thing about this build is that you have a natural mothership to make with a fleet beacon already down
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Well, Hierarch, I tried this a few times on the ladder yesterday, and the results are promising.
One game on xelnaga caverns, one on backwater.
xelnaga was interesting, he saw me going for 3 gate expo and attacked with lings and roaches. I had no problems holding it with a couple of cannons and heavy zealot/sentry with a couple of stalkers warped in (pausing phoenix production during the push) I then moved out with 12-15 phoenix and harassed him at his natural, killing the queen and taking 4-5 drones. He tried mutas which failed and switched to corruptors and hydras. But it was too little too late, I pushed him, FF'd the lings and roaches and picked up the handful of hydras. he GG's.
The other game was worse  he went muta ling (blind, I think) and while they didn't kill probes, they kept my phoenix count down which is something i never considered. After the initial few confrontations (including me wiping out 30-40 lings with mass zealot/sentry/cannon) we both took our third and he went for a fourth which i denied. I didn't tech switch quickly enough to HT's and he ended up rolling me with ling/muta/hydra. It was completely my fault for losing, if I researched storm and had 4-5 templar, I could have easily stormed all of it and if you notice, all three units die ridiculously well to storm. So I gg'd, lesson learned.
I need to refine this build and learn my phoenix timing. Getting 20 of them isn't as easy as i initially thought..
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On March 22 2011 04:24 mamuto wrote:Well, Hierarch, I tried this a few times on the ladder yesterday, and the results are promising. One game on xelnaga caverns, one on backwater. xelnaga was interesting, he saw me going for 3 gate expo and attacked with lings and roaches. I had no problems holding it with a couple of cannons and heavy zealot/sentry with a couple of stalkers warped in (pausing phoenix production during the push) I then moved out with 12-15 phoenix and harassed him at his natural, killing the queen and taking 4-5 drones. He tried mutas which failed and switched to corruptors and hydras. But it was too little too late, I pushed him, FF'd the lings and roaches and picked up the handful of hydras. he GG's. The other game was worse he went muta ling (blind, I think) and while they didn't kill probes, they kept my phoenix count down which is something i never considered. After the initial few confrontations (including me wiping out 30-40 lings with mass zealot/sentry/cannon) we both took our third and he went for a fourth which i denied. I didn't tech switch quickly enough to HT's and he ended up rolling me with ling/muta/hydra. It was completely my fault for losing, if I researched storm and had 4-5 templar, I could have easily stormed all of it and if you notice, all three units die ridiculously well to storm. So I gg'd, lesson learned. I need to refine this build and learn my phoenix timing. Getting 20 of them isn't as easy as i initially thought..
I'll respond to each game:
The game on xel naga, you only need 8-12 phoenix unless he's going mutas, when he stops muta production just start pumping void rays to deal with the inevitable corrupters, or transition into carriers to deal with the hydras. 1 Voidray also immensely helps defend that roach/ling push.
Ya If my opponent does something like muta/ling/hydra then I get HT instead of DT's since Archons and storm just own all those things, but if you had kept chronoboosting double stargate phoenix you should have been able to beat his mutas, as long as you upgraded your air. Did you just stop phoenix production? Also a gateway/phoenix push will beat a muta/ling composition, and if he goes to counter your base with the mutas, you can fly the phoenix back and use canons + phoenix to kill the mutas, do you have some replays?
I'm glad you're enjoying the build :D
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2 options for zerg, I don't know which would work better:
roach+hydra+infestor, leaning a lot heavier on the hydra as roaches are just there to tank the zealots. This would be off of 3-4base play, as it is extremely hard to prevent expanding with this comp until your carrier numbers are up.
muta+corruptor+roach, I've had a lot of success with this vs Ps who go mass phoenix, the key is to use it as a harass force. If the phoenix come in to try and pick at mutas, corruptors get free shots off, focus the mutas on probe lines and killing pylons, dodging any stalker balls he has and sniping off VRs that get too out of position. If the phoenix+VR try a pitched fight without stalker or cannon support, they lose. The roaches are just there for defence, after a good amount of harass, P will get fed up and push out vs you. macro up everything into roaches as he crosses the map and crush his ground army. This would rely a lot on the carrier timing window, as that is something I really have no idea on, but it feels like if the P was going for carriers, there'd be a very obvious window where the first round of carriers are still in production that the Z has free reign over the P's base with muta+corruptor (dancing around a lot to keep corrupts between phoenix and muta)
My success with this may just be due to bad P players, but the flaw of the phoenix is that when they are doing their moving shot, they attack the closest thing, simply make that the corrupts. If they fly in and stop to kill mutas, your mutas rape them anyways.
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On March 22 2011 04:34 Hierarch wrote:
I'll respond to each game:
The game on xel naga, you only need 8-12 phoenix unless he's going mutas, when he stops muta production just start pumping void rays to deal with the inevitable corrupters, or transition into carriers to deal with the hydras. 1 Voidray also immensely helps defend that roach/ling push.
Ya If my opponent does something like muta/ling/hydra then I get HT instead of DT's since Archons and storm just own all those things, but if you had kept chronoboosting double stargate phoenix you should have been able to beat his mutas, as long as you upgraded your air. Did you just stop phoenix production? Also a gateway/phoenix push will beat a muta/ling composition, and if he goes to counter your base with the mutas, you can fly the phoenix back and use canons + phoenix to kill the mutas, do you have some replays?
I'm glad you're enjoying the build :D
It being a new build for me, I'm still struggling to refine it and get my macro in order. having 25 second build times on CB'd phoenix is still a bit funky. So I end up floating way too much and lose due to inferior macro. Also, you seem to know the proper times to push when you know Zerg is weak, that is something I lack overall (other than the 200/200 deathball push but thats easymode)
So I'm trying to get a feel for it, I am going to play this more and watch my replays and see when zerg is weak. Not going to post any replays until I'm sure I'm playing my best so that variable is taken out of the equation of the strategy. Only a 2.8k diamond here :S
Still unsure of the carriers though.. Only because if they go hydra/corruptor, its basically like marine/viking in PvT against carriers. You lose the interceptors to hydra, and you lose the carriers to corruptor with the damage buff. You really do tech right into a hard counter... What are you feelings on this?
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ill get my friend to try this sometime so i can see if there's a way to beat it
but right now, i feel like speedlingbaneling can end the game early for you~
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On March 22 2011 05:06 zLnoEk wrote:
ill get my friend to try this sometime so i can see if there's a way to beat it
but right now, i feel like speedlingbaneling can end the game early for you~
I feel it could also, but as long as I survive with a base, a counter push with zealot/stalker/voidray will win the game. It all depends on how many probes I lose.
On March 22 2011 04:41 Shiladie wrote:
2 options for zerg, I don't know which would work better:
roach+hydra+infestor, leaning a lot heavier on the hydra as roaches are just there to tank the zealots. This would be off of 3-4base play, as it is extremely hard to prevent expanding with this comp until your carrier numbers are up.
muta+corruptor+roach, I've had a lot of success with this vs Ps who go mass phoenix, the key is to use it as a harass force. If the phoenix come in to try and pick at mutas, corruptors get free shots off, focus the mutas on probe lines and killing pylons, dodging any stalker balls he has and sniping off VRs that get too out of position. If the phoenix+VR try a pitched fight without stalker or cannon support, they lose. The roaches are just there for defence, after a good amount of harass, P will get fed up and push out vs you. macro up everything into roaches as he crosses the map and crush his ground army. This would rely a lot on the carrier timing window, as that is something I really have no idea on, but it feels like if the P was going for carriers, there'd be a very obvious window where the first round of carriers are still in production that the Z has free reign over the P's base with muta+corruptor (dancing around a lot to keep corrupts between phoenix and muta)
My success with this may just be due to bad P players, but the flaw of the phoenix is that when they are doing their moving shot, they attack the closest thing, simply make that the corrupts. If they fly in and stop to kill mutas, your mutas rape them anyways.
Roach/Infester/Hydra, in which order? Are you going for super early Infesters? Also Carriers will be off 3 bases for me, I can delay a 3rd for you with a voidray and 3-4 phoenix. Also to prevent late game expansions, DT's allow me to delay or outright deny 4th or 5th expansions.
Muta/Corrupter/Roach just outright loses to a gateway/voidray push seeing as stalker,sentry just can plow through that. Now if you go to harass my base with muta/corrupter here's a few problems, you won't have nearly as many mutas as you would if you were going pure muta, 3 canons in my mineral lines and running 3-4 stalkers back there just nullifies this harassment.
Macroing everything into roaches wouldn't work if I just pushed out with my forces once I see a muta/corrupter harass attempt. Also that's a lot of gas going into muta/corrupter so I don't understand how you'd have enough roaches to defend a push at that timing.
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On March 22 2011 05:00 mamuto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:34 Hierarch wrote:
I'll respond to each game:
The game on xel naga, you only need 8-12 phoenix unless he's going mutas, when he stops muta production just start pumping void rays to deal with the inevitable corrupters, or transition into carriers to deal with the hydras. 1 Voidray also immensely helps defend that roach/ling push.
Ya If my opponent does something like muta/ling/hydra then I get HT instead of DT's since Archons and storm just own all those things, but if you had kept chronoboosting double stargate phoenix you should have been able to beat his mutas, as long as you upgraded your air. Did you just stop phoenix production? Also a gateway/phoenix push will beat a muta/ling composition, and if he goes to counter your base with the mutas, you can fly the phoenix back and use canons + phoenix to kill the mutas, do you have some replays?
I'm glad you're enjoying the build :D It being a new build for me, I'm still struggling to refine it and get my macro in order. having 25 second build times on CB'd phoenix is still a bit funky. So I end up floating way too much and lose due to inferior macro. Also, you seem to know the proper times to push when you know Zerg is weak, that is something I lack overall (other than the 200/200 deathball push but thats easymode) So I'm trying to get a feel for it, I am going to play this more and watch my replays and see when zerg is weak. Not going to post any replays until I'm sure I'm playing my best so that variable is taken out of the equation of the strategy. Only a 2.8k diamond here :S Still unsure of the carriers though.. Only because if they go hydra/corruptor, its basically like marine/viking in PvT against carriers. You lose the interceptors to hydra, and you lose the carriers to corruptor with the damage buff. You really do tech right into a hard counter... What are you feelings on this?
My timings on when zerg is weak is based on scouting, as you are harassing with phoenix you can just get a general idea of how many units zerg has made by counting:
- How many expansions they have
- The drone saturation
- How many units you spot and which units
It's very subtle, but drone saturation tells you a lot about what the zerg is doing. Ya learning to produce out of two stargates and the gateways is kind of odd, I'm almost always producing from my stargates while warping from 4 gateways when on two bases.
The difference between Hydra/Corrupter and Marine/Viking is that Marines cost 50 minerals, and are easier to mass, and they can stim. Also vikings have 9 range while corrupters have 6 (iirc) I'm also not making just carriers, if they make an army composition of pure hydra/corrupter then I'm fine because:
- chargelots get free hits on the hydras if they're shooting intercepters
- Voidrays demolish corrupters, and i'd only get about 6 carriers and then pump voidrays
- I'd also morph a good amount of archons from DT's 250/250 for a unit that can hit hydras and corrupters with 47 splash damage is amazing.
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So I tried out some more double starport openings while getting a crapton of phoenix. I must say...this is unbelievably fun.
This is the first game I played yesterday with it.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197115.jpg)
Even though I did end up losing in the end due to not getting out colossus in time, the harassment part of the game was really fun and felt good. This game was me trying to figure out a good time when to switch into colossus, so I didn't mind if I lost. In fact, I could have probably won had I just gotten colossus a tad bit earlier.
Here is the 2nd game.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197114.jpg)
This one goes much better. I was able to do damage with the phoenix's as well as transition into colossi at a good time. I did some double pronged attacks with a warp prism and phoenix harass on two separate bases as well.
I ended up just going for void/colossus and was able to run over the zerg.
Now for the 3rd game..
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-197116.jpg)
This game is just down right stupid...lol. I do the phoenix opening once again, however he went for a super fast tech to muta's. This caused for some interesting back and forth air battles. He eventually was able to get hyra's without me noticing.
This guy obviously isn't the best player...but I said I would put whatever games I played using this style up for discussion. He ends up just sitting on his 3rd base while not expanding at all with a crapton of hydras/lings/corruptors. I was able to max out with phoenix, colossi, gateway.
The reason this game is so funny..is because twice I run into fields of overlords, bringing him down to almost no supply. That was honestly completely mind blowing. The fact that you can do that in a real league game (neglecting the fact of how good this player was) is pretty fucking amazing. Imagine if this was on a map with a more accessible 3rd. I could have easily improved my air weapons and killed all those overlords even faster.
It wasn't until too late that I remembered about warp prisms and islands, so I only have a 3rd for a short while before he takes all he has into killing that putting himself in a terrible position as I completely clean up his entire poorly upgraded army.
Basically I'm having fun.
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YES! that overlord field killing is so delicious. You do such damage with it, its ridiculous. 100 minerals, all the larvae to rebuild them, can't reenforce an army not only whilst supply blocked, but also after they pop. pretty brutal. pair that up with taking out the queens, and HELLO NO LARVA. then push with main army for the win.
Hierarch, what's a good number of voidrays for you? Do you base it off their corruptor count? if so what ratio of void/corruptor?
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On March 22 2011 06:34 Gemini_19 wrote:So I tried out some more double starport openings while getting a crapton of phoenix. I must say...this is unbelievably fun. This is the first game I played yesterday with it. Even though I did end up losing in the end due to not getting out colossus in time, the harassment part of the game was really fun and felt good. This game was me trying to figure out a good time when to switch into colossus, so I didn't mind if I lost. In fact, I could have probably won had I just gotten colossus a tad bit earlier. Here is the 2nd game. This one goes much better. I was able to do damage with the phoenix's as well as transition into colossi at a good time. I did some double pronged attacks with a warp prism and phoenix harass on two separate bases as well. I ended up just going for void/colossus and was able to run over the zerg. Now for the 3rd game.. This game is just down right stupid...lol. I do the phoenix opening once again, however he went for a super fast tech to muta's. This caused for some interesting back and forth air battles. He eventually was able to get hyra's without me noticing. This guy obviously isn't the best player...but I said I would put whatever games I played using this style up for discussion. He ends up just sitting on his 3rd base while not expanding at all with a crapton of hydras/lings/corruptors. I was able to max out with phoenix, colossi, gateway. The reason this game is so funny..is because twice I run into fields of overlords, bringing him down to almost no supply. That was honestly completely mind blowing. The fact that you can do that in a real league game (neglecting the fact of how good this player was) is pretty fucking amazing. Imagine if this was on a map with a more accessible 3rd. I could have easily improved my air weapons and killed all those overlords even faster. It wasn't until too late that I remembered about warp prisms and islands, so I only have a 3rd for a short while before he takes all he has into killing that putting himself in a terrible position as I completely clean up his entire poorly upgraded army. Basically I'm having fun.
Have you tried transitioning into voidrays and carriers yet? I'll update the OP with these replays also. Thanks.
On March 22 2011 06:47 mamuto wrote:
YES! that overlord field killing is so delicious. You do such damage with it, its ridiculous. 100 minerals, all the larvae to rebuild them, can't reenforce an army not only whilst supply blocked, but also after they pop. pretty brutal. pair that up with taking out the queens, and HELLO NO LARVA. then push with main army for the win.
Hierarch, what's a good number of voidrays for you? Do you base it off their corruptor count? if so what ratio of void/corruptor?
If I see mass, mass corrupter I just keep pumping voidrays nonstop, if I see more of a corrupter/hyrda mix I usually get 8-12 voids and 4-6 carriers, and when I max I usually go up to 10-12 gateways and 4 stargates to help remax. It's more of a "feel" type of thing lol XD
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Thank you for this post!
Last weekend I started trying to go carriers in both T and Z matchups. I won some and lost some (got too excited and tried rushing for them), but what I really like about carriers is that I am having fun again. Even if I lose, it is so much more exciting trying to get carriers then the standard colossus. I think carriers are under used and tend to scare/confuse some opponents.
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@Hierarch: Not yet. I'm slowly easing into the style. I'll try more carrier based play today.
You can also put under "Tips and Tricks" running into fields of overlords like I did ^^
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EPT
