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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 19 2011 15:30 Aterons_toss wrote: What do you do if the zerg just produces corruptors and some mutas to pick off the zealots :p ? Mutas get melted by phoenix/stalkers/voidrays in small numbers which is what it sounds like you're suggesting, also zealots don't really die that fast from mutalisk fire, is that what you meant? | ||
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Splendour
Bulgaria129 Posts
Also the thread is largely about phoenix-based armies - as we've seen from moon vs ace in the finals of iem, hydra corruptor armies crush that pretty badly. And if zerg makes an infestor you can no longer harass with the phoenixes. Opting for a 3 gate expansion before starting the stargates is really...inefficient. Not to mention that it relies too much on zerg not scouting them in time. | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 19 2011 15:41 Splendour wrote: I don't see carriers ever coming into the metagame of pvz. It's just that voidrays are better as they don't take bonus damage from corruptors. Also the thread is largely about phoenix-based armies - as we've seen from moon vs ace in the finals of iem, hydra corruptor armies crush that pretty badly. And if zerg makes an infestor you can no longer harass with the phoenixes. Opting for a 3 gate expansion before starting the stargates is really...inefficient. Not to mention that it relies too much on zerg not scouting them in time. Where in my posts did I say anything about phoenix based armys? Other players have been talking about phoenix balls, but I just use them to consistently scout and keep zerg off the map. I make about 5-9 in my games and just use them to harass, the only way zerg is going to scout it is to fly an overlord through my base and look for the corner the stargates are in. If zerg gets an infester and catches me with a fungal and i lose those phoenix it's unfortunate but it's usually going to be after I've accomplished enough damage where my army and economy is strong enough to beat the zerg. Carriers are a transition because Carrier/Voidray will beat corrupter/hydra Carriers just offer a ton of DPS and they are quite durable. Also how is opening 3gate into 2 stargates inefficient? It's a safe build that allows for a fast expansion that can defend quick pressure but also gives an option of harassment. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
Mass queens will shit on 3/3 max supply air (not saying that's viable at all or that you'd stick with your strat if you saw that), and how do you deal with mass baneling/ling? Do carriers have the dps to stop an attack like this? Also, how about corrupter/bling/ling/queen or something similar? Thanks for your reply. | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 19 2011 16:20 michaelhasanalias wrote: I apologize if someone has asked this in the 9 pages of discussion, but how do you respond to ling/baneling/queen heavy play? Mass queens will shit on 3/3 max supply air (not saying that's viable at all or that you'd stick with your strat if you saw that), and how do you deal with mass baneling/ling? Do carriers have the dps to stop an attack like this? Also, how about corrupter/bling/ling/queen or something similar? Thanks for your reply. ling/baneling queen I'd just respond with a heavy heavy zealot gateway composition with voidrays, 3-4 voidrays with 5-6 phoenix can kill sooooo many queens. Then using ff's to zone the lings and blings then just pull my air units back and let my gateway army kill the queens. Also mass queens gets destroyed by carrier/voidray, my friend has tried mass mass queen 3-4 times, with like 15+ queens even with transfusions they don't do enough damage fast enough, and they just get melted by carriers. When are you talking about mass baneling/ling? Like a bust? or a midgame timing? | ||
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
On March 19 2011 15:28 Hierarch wrote: You blindly make hydras? How many hydras will you have and at what time are you attempting to attack (off creep since you won't have creep up to my base)? Also I don't even get carriers until my 3rd base is up so that won't be a problem. Yeah I always make hydras against toss. Lately I have been skipping roaches completely to get faster lair and more hydras instead. With enough hydras I can attack off creep and still succeed because you wont have that deadly forcefield/colossi combo. | ||
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DiaBoLuS
Germany1638 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
you have no scouting info until you get your phoenix, thus never can properly react to what you oponnent may throw at you. your friend doesn't seem to be an aggressiv type, which allows you to safely expand and transition into air, he then again does the mistake of staying the defender against harass type play. I want to see you holding an aggressiv gameplay with that before beliving it beeing viable. | ||
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Gemini_19
United States1262 Posts
On March 19 2011 19:23 freetgy wrote: well i don't see you holding any decent early aggression i.e. burrow roach timing you have no scouting info until you get your phoenix, thus never can properly react to what you oponnent may throw at you. your friend doesn't seem to be an aggressiv type, which allows you to safely expand and transition into air, he then again does the mistake of staying the defender against harass type play. I want to see you holding an aggressiv gameplay with that before beliving it beeing viable. 3gate expansions involve getting hallucination in case you didn't know. You can use a hallucinated phoenix, purposefully have it vanish in their vision (so they know what it is) and then come in a little bit later with like 4 real phoenix's and destroy. Look at my replay on about page 5 for how to deal with holding off roach/ling aggressive openings. @DiaBoLuS: Who said it needs to? | ||
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Herr_Trichter
15 Posts
I assume a typical game where toss goes 3 gate sentry expand and zerg goes 14 pool 16 hatch 17 gas queen and then get lingspeed and some roaches. If z doenst make any lings but 6-7 roaches and a spine p cant apply any pressure with his zealot sentry army at all so z will get a huge dronelead (when expo is up its like 30-35 probes to 40-50 drones). Zerg will poke with a pair of lings and see army composition. If he doesnt see a good stalker count by the time he will assume robo or stargate (if there are cannons stargate is more likely=- with oversser or overlordspeed he can get a full scout on protoss base. Toss can get hallucination to get a full scout aswell. So both players know what the other is doing by that point (8-9 min or something) Thats the basis for the midgame where p has the plan to go heavy phenix, voidray into carrier. I am a 3.5k master zerg and i would do the following: after scouting 2 stargates ill get a 3rd, alot extra queens (i am at 2 or 3 and will get another 4 or 6 or even more if p just masses air and doenst attacks), 4+ infestors, double evo,1 spore each in the minerals (mb another one in the front of my base if i expect voidrays) and spread creep towards my 3rd. Have u ever tried to micro phenix vs infestors  ? U wont get even close to the zergs creep cuz one fungal growth can make u loose all your phenix - and if this happens though its game over!! (zerg will take 4th denie your 3rd and will kill u with whatever he likes). 1 Infestor at each base burrowed will just shut down any phenix herass completly and make u loose everything if u dare to get to close to the mineral line even once.Have u ever tried to use Voidrays vs queens and infestor? Its not a good idea! Queens outrange voidrays and its almost impossible to kill queens with voids only when zerg uses transfuse (assuming something like 5-6 queens vs 4-6 voids). If zerg player casts one fungal on your voidrays the will just die miserable without even fighting back (in the 8 seconds the fungal lasts other infestors can arrive and continue casting it). If u loose your initial voidrays its game over - p wont come back from that. And on top of that: Chargelots are not as good vs roach or hydra when they have a shitload of mushrooms on theire heads and wont move an inch. The infestor just couners every single unit of your composition until u get hightemplar or colossus.... Herasse based stargate play gets killed so hard by infestors its not even funny. I think that 4 phenix herass is a very good opening after forge expand and i think that phenix are a very very strong counter to mutalisks. But mass phenix herassment wont work on zerg that know how to press the f key for inFestor and Fungal. I dont have any replay cuz no toss ever tried to do that vs me yet. But fell free to challenge me  | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 19 2011 19:23 freetgy wrote: well i don't see you holding any decent early aggression i.e. burrow roach timing you have no scouting info until you get your phoenix, thus never can properly react to what you oponnent may throw at you. your friend doesn't seem to be an aggressiv type, which allows you to safely expand and transition into air, he then again does the mistake of staying the defender against harass type play. I want to see you holding an aggressiv gameplay with that before beliving it beeing viable. Roach burrow timing isn't a problem because canons detect, and since i havedetection, roach burrow timing becomes a slightly better roach push which is easily held off. Also as Gemini has states hallucination allows for faster scouting, and can throw the opponent off. It also allows you to hallucinate carriers or colossus in the late game. On March 19 2011 18:56 DiaBoLuS wrote: you can try to defend your build, but it wont work after all on a competetive lvl twice. Why won't it work twice? It's not like the colossus build where it must follow the same path, it can go into a voidray timing, I could make 1 stargate and switch to colossus, I could go into a gateway timing attack. On March 19 2011 18:48 DaCruise wrote: Yeah I always make hydras against toss. Lately I have been skipping roaches completely to get faster lair and more hydras instead. With enough hydras I can attack off creep and still succeed because you wont have that deadly forcefield/colossi combo. Fair enough :D | ||
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Hetz
196 Posts
On March 19 2011 22:54 Herr_Trichter wrote: I read through the first 4 Pages on this thread and there was almost no comment on the fact that zerg has infestors!! I assume a typical game where toss goes 3 gate sentry expand and zerg goes 14 pool 16 hatch 17 gas queen and then get lingspeed and some roaches. If z doenst make any lings but 6-7 roaches and a spine p cant apply any pressure with his zealot sentry army at all so z will get a huge dronelead (when expo is up its like 30-35 probes to 40-50 drones). Zerg will poke with a pair of lings and see army composition. If he doesnt see a good stalker count by the time he will assume robo or stargate (if there are cannons stargate is more likely=- with oversser or overlordspeed he can get a full scout on protoss base. Toss can get hallucination to get a full scout aswell. So both players know what the other is doing by that point (8-9 min or something) Thats the basis for the midgame where p has the plan to go heavy phenix, voidray into carrier. I am a 3.5k master zerg and i would do the following: after scouting 2 stargates ill get a 3rd, alot extra queens (i am at 2 or 3 and will get another 4 or 6 or even more if p just masses air and doenst attacks), 4+ infestors, double evo,1 spore each in the minerals (mb another one in the front of my base if i expect voidrays) and spread creep towards my 3rd. Have u ever tried to micro phenix vs infestors ? U wont get even close to the zergs creep cuz one fungal growth can make u loose all your phenix - and if this happens though its game over!! (zerg will take 4th denie your 3rd and will kill u with whatever he likes). 1 Infestor at each base burrowed will just shut down any phenix herass completly and make u loose everything if u dare to get to close to the mineral line even once.Have u ever tried to use Voidrays vs queens and infestor? Its not a good idea! Queens outrange voidrays and its almost impossible to kill queens with voids only when zerg uses transfuse (assuming something like 5-6 queens vs 4-6 voids). If zerg player casts one fungal on your voidrays the will just die miserable without even fighting back (in the 8 seconds the fungal lasts other infestors can arrive and continue casting it). If u loose your initial voidrays its game over - p wont come back from that. And on top of that: Chargelots are not as good vs roach or hydra when they have a shitload of mushrooms on theire heads and wont move an inch. The infestor just couners every single unit of your composition until u get hightemplar or colossus.... Herasse based stargate play gets killed so hard by infestors its not even funny. I think that 4 phenix herass is a very good opening after forge expand and i think that phenix are a very very strong counter to mutalisks. But mass phenix herassment wont work on zerg that know how to press the f key for inFestor and Fungal. I dont have any replay cuz no toss ever tried to do that vs me yet. But fell free to challenge me this | ||
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 19 2011 22:54 Herr_Trichter wrote: I read through the first 4 Pages on this thread and there was almost no comment on the fact that zerg has infestors!! I assume a typical game where toss goes 3 gate sentry expand and zerg goes 14 pool 16 hatch 17 gas queen and then get lingspeed and some roaches. If z doenst make any lings but 6-7 roaches and a spine p cant apply any pressure with his zealot sentry army at all so z will get a huge dronelead (when expo is up its like 30-35 probes to 40-50 drones). Zerg will poke with a pair of lings and see army composition. If he doesnt see a good stalker count by the time he will assume robo or stargate (if there are cannons stargate is more likely=- with oversser or overlordspeed he can get a full scout on protoss base. Toss can get hallucination to get a full scout aswell. So both players know what the other is doing by that point (8-9 min or something) Thats the basis for the midgame where p has the plan to go heavy phenix, voidray into carrier. I am a 3.5k master zerg and i would do the following: after scouting 2 stargates ill get a 3rd, alot extra queens (i am at 2 or 3 and will get another 4 or 6 or even more if p just masses air and doenst attacks), 4+ infestors, double evo,1 spore each in the minerals (mb another one in the front of my base if i expect voidrays) and spread creep towards my 3rd. Have u ever tried to micro phenix vs infestors ? U wont get even close to the zergs creep cuz one fungal growth can make u loose all your phenix - and if this happens though its game over!! (zerg will take 4th denie your 3rd and will kill u with whatever he likes). 1 Infestor at each base burrowed will just shut down any phenix herass completly and make u loose everything if u dare to get to close to the mineral line even once.Have u ever tried to use Voidrays vs queens and infestor? Its not a good idea! Queens outrange voidrays and its almost impossible to kill queens with voids only when zerg uses transfuse (assuming something like 5-6 queens vs 4-6 voids). If zerg player casts one fungal on your voidrays the will just die miserable without even fighting back (in the 8 seconds the fungal lasts other infestors can arrive and continue casting it). If u loose your initial voidrays its game over - p wont come back from that. And on top of that: Chargelots are not as good vs roach or hydra when they have a shitload of mushrooms on theire heads and wont move an inch. The infestor just couners every single unit of your composition until u get hightemplar or colossus.... Herasse based stargate play gets killed so hard by infestors its not even funny. I think that 4 phenix herass is a very good opening after forge expand and i think that phenix are a very very strong counter to mutalisks. But mass phenix herassment wont work on zerg that know how to press the f key for inFestor and Fungal. I dont have any replay cuz no toss ever tried to do that vs me yet. But fell free to challenge me I don't ever poke with my voidrays after the initial one, and at what point can you have infesters out, because from the sounds of your plan you have no anti air except queens until you get the infesters, 5 phoenix and a voidray can kill infinite queens at that point in the game. Also if I saw infester play, I'd just put up more gateways and do a gateway + voidray push. I do agree that infesters are probably the best counter to stargate harass, but that's a lot of gas to be allocating, and you'll be on 2 bases nonetheless taking a 3rd so your army will be mostly roach/ling otherwise. | ||
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Elean
689 Posts
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 20 2011 00:30 Elean wrote: Why not forge FE instead of 3 gate expend ? I personally am not comfortable forge expanding on most maps due to the ability to just get broken, I feel that a 3gate expand is much safer. Although on a map like terminus I might consider forge expanding. | ||
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worldsnap
Canada222 Posts
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 20 2011 02:37 worldsnap wrote: I can't test this because I'm at work, but does fungal grown affect interceptors? I'll test it really quick now and get back to you, as long as fungal can hit friendly units XD otherwise I'm gonna have to wait for someone to get on. I also added another replay from a ladder game I just did an hour ago, if anyone else is doing this strategy and wants to show replays, either winning or losing then just PM me or post here. | ||
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-Jacob-
358 Posts
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Hierarch
United States2197 Posts
On March 20 2011 02:37 worldsnap wrote: I can't test this because I'm at work, but does fungal grown affect interceptors? After testing, Fungal Growth stops intercepters in mid air, but it doesn't do enough damage with 1 fungal to kill them. However it only hits like 3-5 intercepters on average per fungal, most i hit with one was 6. But it definitely adds some possibilities. :D On March 20 2011 02:47 -Jacob- wrote: Carriers work out great for Zerg. I've started opening with 3 gate stalkers + expand then straight into carriers.If you can hide your stargates and get 2 carriers out before you attack with a stalker army it really throws your opponent off gaurd and usually results in a win. I tend to go for void rays in the mid game as i like to take a 3rd instead of going for a two base timing, but hiding 2 stargates and doing a 2 base timing with 2 carriers and a gateway army could be interesting. | ||
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Ruyguy
Canada988 Posts
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