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[Eternal]Phoenix
United States333 Posts
The only way you could hold this is with 2 forcefields at a time? It still sounds retarded. PvP is forever the broken retarded mirror. I really hate warpgates. They just seem to break all the rules of RTS and make every MU stupid, but this is absolutely ridiculous. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:04 4kmonk wrote: There is a spot on the ramp you can forcefield to prevent warpins into your base approximately half the time, around the top of the ramp. It depends on the positioning on his units on the bottom of the ramp and what vision they have, but at least it's one semi effectively way to prevent warpins. Do you have a picture? I've tried all sorts of high ramp FF but it only results in opponent walking up the ramp to gain vision... | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On January 13 2011 20:04 4kmonk wrote: There is a spot on the ramp you can forcefield to prevent warpins into your base approximately half the time, around the top of the ramp. It depends on the positioning on his units on the bottom of the ramp and what vision they have, but at least it's one semi effectively way to prevent warpins. Untrue. I spent 15 minutes of nothing but placed forcefields and vision warpin to determine every possible forcefield spot leaves vision enough to warp in zealots above it. It may be that your opponent did not have his pylon close enough (sometimes you place a second closer for better top-of-ramp warpins). Refer to my pictures on Page 4 for the placement of second pylon for added damage. | ||
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Durp
Canada3117 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On January 13 2011 21:50 Danglars wrote: Untrue. I spent 15 minutes of nothing but placed forcefields and vision warpin to determine every possible forcefield spot leaves vision enough to warp in zealots above it. It may be that your opponent did not have his pylon close enough (sometimes you place a second closer for better top-of-ramp warpins). Refer to my pictures on Page 4 for the placement of second pylon for added damage. I tried it a few days ago and as I said, it kinda works half the time. I had pylons at the right places and half the time I could warp in by forcing units up the ramp while spamming zealots at the ledge. The other half, I couldn't. I think it has to do with exactly where your stalkers are on the ramp below the forcefield. However, you're probably right as you've tested it for 15 minutes. | ||
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dtz
5834 Posts
On January 13 2011 15:49 Anihc wrote: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-180421.jpg) I think you showed the spot but actually when you did the over ramp warpin , didnt you have a zealot on top so you had vision anyway. | ||
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confusedcrib
United States1307 Posts
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RabidSeagull
United States220 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On January 13 2011 22:08 confusedcrib wrote: Are you sure that you can warp in on a ramp? This is true. I seen this in a pro match before, but I don't remember who against who. The only thing I remembered was it was either 4 gate vs 3 gate robo or 4 gate vs 4 gate. The offensive 4 gater won. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13407 Posts
Also, this warp in above FF is kinda dumb tbh but then again maybe we as Protoss players have come to rely upon the Forcefield too much in stopping early rushes. Then again, sometimes I feel we have to rely on the forcefield  I really like Protoss and I think the spellcasting is the best part but I hate how reliant we as a race are on forcefield and then in mirror, when this one spell can't help us unless we mirror the exact build it creates issues for us as well. EDIT: and thank you coLrsvp for the replay (its on p3 and 4) it really was helpful to see the pylon in place in a game and in action, though the zealot being on the highground did kinda make it more difficult for me to see the warp in thing I see the concept in play and thats good enough for me atm. Also a thanks to Danglars (on p.4) for posting the multiple ff positions and how they dont help block the ramp at all in order to prevent the wall in. I cannot help but think that it is the fact that a FF is hexagonal that does this wherein a stalker can put a small bit of themselves further up the ramp where the hex cuts in on the forcefield. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/3aJnZ.jpg) | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On January 13 2011 19:29 Danglars wrote: Okay for those of you, like me, that like pictures =). ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/07tB7.jpg) Figure 1: Forcefield is in exact middle on the bottom, zealots warped in above it using vision from units below the forcefield ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/iQEN5.jpg) Figure 2: Forcefield is in exact middle of the top, zealots can warp in with the same pylon above the forcefield. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/jx1yg.jpg) Figure 3: Second Pylon is placed closer to allow multiple units to be warped in on the top. Figured it was true, thank you for the replay Anihc. You can also get the job done with 1 pylon by placing the first pylon a little closer and skewed to the side a bit. The position rsvp used is good because it's almost impossible to snipe from the high ground, but if the defender doesn't have a good stalker count, you can put your first pylon in a more aggressive position to start warping in all of your units up the ramp faster. | ||
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TheResidentEvil
United States991 Posts
Also if you watch the NSPGenius game where he stops the blink stalkers from getting up his ramp. it would work for this also. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 13 2011 11:02 Anihc wrote: There are many variations of 4 gate, and any decent protoss is going to scout and adapt to their opponent's build. A 4 gate isn't strictly just 1 zealot 6 stalkers at 5:40 (or whenever the timing is). If you scout 2 gate, you adapt and drop your own 2nd gate and get more units to match his. Then you eventually get 2 more gates and you still end up 4 gating. The cyber for a K4G comes right before/with the 2nd gate. Thus, it's entirely reactionary. Basically, if I scout a 10 gate, I know what's coming, and I put down 2 gates. The end result is usually pretty micro intensive, but it's really easy to hold the bottom of your ramp when you've made units out of your 2 gateways while the opponent has chronoboosted tech and made 2 zealots at most. The end result is that it's impossible for the 4-gater to get a pylon down, since you can kill his probe and protect your ramp so easily. He'll have to warp at home, and that walk time of 30 or so seconds is enough for you to have a significant advantage. Alternatively against a regular 12 gate variation you can be offensive. Precisely the reason 1 gate robo builds and any 1 gate core builds can't hold a K4G is because you can't control your own ramp. With a 2 gate core the scout probe is shooed, and with practice you can learn to keep it away. With time, IMO, K4G in PvP will become cheese just like 4 gate dragoon in BW, and builds like 2 gate expand and 2 gate robo will become more standard. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On January 14 2011 00:50 wherebugsgo wrote: The cyber for a K4G comes right before/with the 2nd gate. Thus, it's entirely reactionary. Basically, if I scout a 10 gate, I know what's coming, and I put down 2 gates. The end result is usually pretty micro intensive, but it's really easy to hold the bottom of your ramp when you've made units out of your 2 gateways while the opponent has chronoboosted tech and made 2 zealots at most. The end result is that it's impossible for the 4-gater to get a pylon down, since you can kill his probe and protect your ramp so easily. He'll have to warp at home, and that walk time of 30 or so seconds is enough for you to have a significant advantage. Alternatively against a regular 12 gate variation you can be offensive. Precisely the reason 1 gate robo builds and any 1 gate core builds can't hold a K4G is because you can't control your own ramp. With a 2 gate core the scout probe is shooed, and with practice you can learn to keep it away. With time, IMO, K4G in PvP will become cheese just like 4 gate dragoon in BW, and builds like 2 gate expand and 2 gate robo will become more standard. Who's talking about K4G? Also, zealots are useless for holding the bottom of your ramp. They get picked off for free by stalkers. | ||
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FenneK
France1231 Posts
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ChaosWielder
United States166 Posts
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Anomandaris
Afghanistan440 Posts
I actually think that 4 gate vs 4 gate is pretty cool. Micro is so important in this matchup. | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
On January 13 2011 10:59 iChau wrote: If he doesn't 4 gate, then it's a different story. However, 2 gate works well in close positions, though, as it'll disrupt his BO. I agree with your point here, but nobody in their right mind would continue to try and 4 gate if they scouted a double 10 gate or 10-12 gate zealot rush in close positions. I find that I MUST react to a 2 gate with either a cannon or a 2 gate or I just lose. | ||
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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
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