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By placing a pylon at the bottom of your opponent's ramp slightly skewed off to the side, it's possible to warp in units over a forcefield and into your opponent's main without vision. Your units on the low ground have vision on the ramp, so you warp in a unit as far up as you can, immediately gaining a small area of vision in the main which you use to warp in the rest of your units. If your opponent has invested in sentries to defend your 4 gate, your 4 warped in zealots along with your stalkers firing from the low ground is usually enough to push him back from the ramp. Your stalkers then flood in and it's gg.
Because of this trick, almost anything with 2 gas and relies on sentries for defense loses to a hard 4 gate. The only thing that really handles a hard 4 gate well is a 4 gate without as much probe cutting. Of course, you can't scout a 4 gate until it's too late to adapt.
When I 4 gate, I'm happy to see sentries because it means I get to set up my pylon right outside his base uncontested and the army up the ramp will be weak when I get up there.
IMO, when the only way to defend a 4 gate is to 4 gate, the build is limiting the match-up too much and needs to be nerfed to improve strategic diversity. Should this trick for warping units over a forcefield up a ramp without vision should be eliminated?
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I wondered why I was losing to 4 warp-gates....god I hate PvP so much right now due to this.
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I'll love you so much if I learn to do this <3
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Man that sucks. I'll be on tonight testing this I think. I assume a more traditional 3gate with stalkers (heading down the blinkstalker route) would be able to hold this as they'd snipe the pylon, but will test this this evening.
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If you go quick immortal the range of the immortal should be able to always reach the warping in pylon. I would just not let the pylon finish.
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can you post a replay please? i think i know what you mean but am not entirely sure. i played a game last night where someone warped zealots in my base even though i ff'd the bottom of the ramp before he got a chance to run any units up. he probably did this T_T
unfortunetly i played a ton of games last night and it would take forever to find that one game
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An immortal does not arrive in time to prevent a 4gate attack.
See the latest GSL match between choyaFou and Tester on scrap station.
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what if you FF the middle of the ramp instead of the top or the bottom ?
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its not 4 gate that needs to be nerfed... the ramp issue is just broken imo
2 gas builds can still hold off a hard 4 gate, but ive only been able to do it by 10 gating and getting faster wg than my opponent. you can hold off the ramp warp ins but you need to be VERY flawless in your micro or you lose
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On January 13 2011 08:51 MarshalClaw wrote:
An immortal does not arrive in time to prevent a 4gate attack.
See the latest GSL match between choyaFou and Tester on scrap station.
Link please? I have a really hard time finding a watching GSL matches. Are you sure a 1 gate robo can't get one out in time? Chrono immortals come out pretty quickly.
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It's the same trick as when you use blink stalkers and blink one onto the ramp for vision then the rest into their base. This is worse though because any sort of tech build will 100% not have enough units to hold a 4 gate if their units get into your base and this makes it like 100x harder to prevent that. Basically all you can do is at least 3 gate before tech if they're 4 gating and have enough units to either stop a pylon from going up or do significant damage to their units during the warp in time, enough that you will be able to stay close enough to your ramp to FF again as well as kill all of their warped in units before their gates are off cooldown.
This is SUPER FUCKING ANNOYING
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On January 13 2011 08:51 Azide wrote:
what if you FF the middle of the ramp instead of the top or the bottom ?
It's definitely possible to prevent this trick with 2 forcefields (1 at top of ramp, 1 at bottom), but it's impossible to have enough sentries to continuously maintain 2 forcefields. As for whether you can use 1 forcefield to both deny the warp in at the top and prevent units at the bottom from getting far enough up to get vision of the high ground, I don't think a forcefield is big enough to cover both spots, but it might be. Seems unlikely, but it's worth testing.
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Does it work against any force field placement ? People usually force field at the very bottom of their ramp, perhaps 1-2 boxes up can do the trick ? I'll try to test it.
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On January 13 2011 08:51 MarshalClaw wrote:
An immortal does not arrive in time to prevent a 4gate attack.
See the latest GSL match between choyaFou and Tester on scrap station.
It can, Testers build order was messed up because he got confused, if you robo early (when warpgate is 20% done) then you will have an immortal out. 4 sentrys is enough to stop a 4gate because you can ff the ramp, and they still wont have vision to warp in into your base.
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On January 13 2011 08:56 Shifft wrote:
It's the same trick as when you use blink stalkers and blink one onto the ramp for vision then the rest into their base. This is worse though because any sort of tech build will 100% not have enough units to hold a 4 gate if their units get into your base and this makes it like 100x harder to prevent that. Basically all you can do is at least 3 gate before tech if they're 4 gating and have enough units to either stop a pylon from going up or do significant damage to their units during the warp in time, enough that you will be able to stay close enough to your ramp to FF again as well as kill all of their warped in units before their gates are off cooldown.
This is SUPER FUCKING ANNOYING
3 gates before tech doesn't cut it. I've been killing 3 gate robo builds with regularity. If they're mining both gas, they're relying on sentries to hold the ramp, and if they've built sentries, they won't be able to kill my warped in zealots quickly enough.
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On January 13 2011 08:58 Juxx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:51 MarshalClaw wrote:
An immortal does not arrive in time to prevent a 4gate attack.
See the latest GSL match between choyaFou and Tester on scrap station. It can, Testers build order was messed up because he got confused, if you robo early (when warpgate is 20% done) then you will have an immortal out. 4 sentrys is enough to stop a 4gate because you can ff the ramp, and they still wont have vision to warp in into your base.
How do you expect to have 4 sentries out by the time a 4gate hits? If you opened Sentry, you lose it to the first Stalker + Zealot. If you don't, you're going to have 1 Sentry before your warpgate finishes and their warpgate is nearly guaranteed to be quicker. If you do 1gate robo, you will have a maximum of 2 Sentries, if that.
By the way I just tested, there's 3 positions to FF your ramp. With the bottom one, you warp above, then inside main. With mid, same thing. With the top one you can just walk a unit to the FF and warp inside, it's the worst FF of them all.
On January 13 2011 09:02 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:56 Shifft wrote:
It's the same trick as when you use blink stalkers and blink one onto the ramp for vision then the rest into their base. This is worse though because any sort of tech build will 100% not have enough units to hold a 4 gate if their units get into your base and this makes it like 100x harder to prevent that. Basically all you can do is at least 3 gate before tech if they're 4 gating and have enough units to either stop a pylon from going up or do significant damage to their units during the warp in time, enough that you will be able to stay close enough to your ramp to FF again as well as kill all of their warped in units before their gates are off cooldown.
This is SUPER FUCKING ANNOYING 3 gates before tech doesn't cut it. I've been killing 3 gate robo builds with regularity. If they're mining both gas, they're relying on sentries to hold the ramp, and if they've built sentries, they won't be able to kill my warped in zealots quickly enough. Yep, 3 gates dont have nearly enough units unless they chrono warpgate just as much and pull every probe, and then they lose in attrition.
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There was a thread a couple days ago discussing the 4 gate vs. 3 gate robo. The proponents of the 4 gate claim that no robo build can stop a properly executed 4 gate. I disagree. I believe if the FF's are properly used and the right timing / unit comp is used, the 3 gate robo can defend against this. In order to test this I have pretty much been doing 4 gate against every PvP matchup i get where I cut probes at 21 and go for the 1 gas 4 gate. I still have trouble against properly executed FF's and my own timing. I think, mainly I need to work on my 4 gate timing and when to buidl the pylon at their ramp. I think if you're going 1 gas 4 gate, you really have to be on point against a skilled player with a couple sentries.
Btw, you can't have 4 sentries out by the time the 4 gate gets there. A proper 1 gas 4gate arrives at 5:40 - 6 and if you built a robo you will NOT have 4 sentries if even 2.
However, I don't think PvP is as totally restrictive as you might think. Give the adelscott build a try:
12/17 Gate build 4 zealots / 2 stalkers, pressure, forge and expand behind it then throw up 2 more gates with a cannon at the natural. If you don't feel comfortable with the expand, then just throw up your 2 gates first and then expand. Just search for adelscott on sc2rep.com and find some PvP action. Otherwise, I'll upload one of my replays soon.
Haha, or you could always cannon rush ; ). And I'm still of the opinion that a 3 gate robo can hold the 4 gate.
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On January 13 2011 09:02 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:56 Shifft wrote:
It's the same trick as when you use blink stalkers and blink one onto the ramp for vision then the rest into their base. This is worse though because any sort of tech build will 100% not have enough units to hold a 4 gate if their units get into your base and this makes it like 100x harder to prevent that. Basically all you can do is at least 3 gate before tech if they're 4 gating and have enough units to either stop a pylon from going up or do significant damage to their units during the warp in time, enough that you will be able to stay close enough to your ramp to FF again as well as kill all of their warped in units before their gates are off cooldown.
This is SUPER FUCKING ANNOYING 3 gates before tech doesn't cut it. I've been killing 3 gate robo builds with regularity. If they're mining both gas, they're relying on sentries to hold the ramp, and if they've built sentries, they won't be able to kill my warped in zealots quickly enough.
Sorry, I meant 3 gate and build units, then tech after you're sure a 4 gate isn't coming. I haven't had this build done to me for a few days but I'm fairly sure that 3 gates pumping units will hold off a 4 gate done this way, since if you kill the first round of warp-ins you should be ahead in unit count for a few cycles.
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I'm theorycrafting this time. The problem is the second round of zealots, the ones warping in directly into the main, so why not limit the space ?
A standard wall gate+ cyber + another gate on the other side (+whatever needed, depends on the map) might be enough to deny in-main warping.
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interesting idea but if they see it and go 3 gate robo with obs bye bye buildings. free food for stalkers
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On January 13 2011 09:14 Valefort wrote:
I'm theorycrafting this time. The problem is the second round of zealots, the ones warping in directly into the main, so why not limit the space ?
A standard wall gate+ cyber + another gate on the other side (+whatever needed, depends on the map) might be enough to deny in-main warping.
Most likely it won't, and on a lot of maps such as delta quadrant they have so many different workable places to put their pylon that this has no chance at all of working.
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On January 13 2011 09:07 Shifft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 09:02 kcdc wrote:On January 13 2011 08:56 Shifft wrote:
It's the same trick as when you use blink stalkers and blink one onto the ramp for vision then the rest into their base. This is worse though because any sort of tech build will 100% not have enough units to hold a 4 gate if their units get into your base and this makes it like 100x harder to prevent that. Basically all you can do is at least 3 gate before tech if they're 4 gating and have enough units to either stop a pylon from going up or do significant damage to their units during the warp in time, enough that you will be able to stay close enough to your ramp to FF again as well as kill all of their warped in units before their gates are off cooldown.
This is SUPER FUCKING ANNOYING 3 gates before tech doesn't cut it. I've been killing 3 gate robo builds with regularity. If they're mining both gas, they're relying on sentries to hold the ramp, and if they've built sentries, they won't be able to kill my warped in zealots quickly enough. Sorry, I meant 3 gate and build units, then tech after you're sure a 4 gate isn't coming. I haven't had this build done to me for a few days but I'm fairly sure that 3 gates pumping units will hold off a 4 gate done this way, since if you kill the first round of warp-ins you should be ahead in unit count for a few cycles.
Maybe. You don't often kill the first round of warp-ins for free tho. Executed properly, a 4 gate builds a pylon on the opponent's side of the map reasonably close to the opponent's main to warp in 4 stalkers at completion of warpgate research. You start a pylon at the bottom of their ramp as soon as you can (while attacking with your 1 zealot and 6 stalkers) to time the pylon's completion with the cooldown after your first round of stalkers. Then you warp in your 4 zealots up the ramp. Against a player defending with forcefields, you'll always have a big advantage in stalker count, so if he tries to attack your zealots with zealots, his zealots die more quickly than yours do. The defender won't have more than a stalker or 2 and sentries don't do damage, so it's really hard for the forcefield player to kill those 4 zealots without losing units himself.
Maybe 3 gate robo can defend a perfect 4 gate. Maybe. It's definitely much more difficult than 4 gating tho, so at equal skill, the 4 gater will win most of the time.
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On January 13 2011 09:23 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 09:07 Shifft wrote:On January 13 2011 09:02 kcdc wrote:On January 13 2011 08:56 Shifft wrote:
It's the same trick as when you use blink stalkers and blink one onto the ramp for vision then the rest into their base. This is worse though because any sort of tech build will 100% not have enough units to hold a 4 gate if their units get into your base and this makes it like 100x harder to prevent that. Basically all you can do is at least 3 gate before tech if they're 4 gating and have enough units to either stop a pylon from going up or do significant damage to their units during the warp in time, enough that you will be able to stay close enough to your ramp to FF again as well as kill all of their warped in units before their gates are off cooldown.
This is SUPER FUCKING ANNOYING 3 gates before tech doesn't cut it. I've been killing 3 gate robo builds with regularity. If they're mining both gas, they're relying on sentries to hold the ramp, and if they've built sentries, they won't be able to kill my warped in zealots quickly enough. Sorry, I meant 3 gate and build units, then tech after you're sure a 4 gate isn't coming. I haven't had this build done to me for a few days but I'm fairly sure that 3 gates pumping units will hold off a 4 gate done this way, since if you kill the first round of warp-ins you should be ahead in unit count for a few cycles. Maybe. You don't often kill the first round of warp-ins for free tho. Executed properly, a 4 gate builds a pylon on the opponent's side of the map reasonably close to the opponent's main to warp in 4 stalkers at completion of warpgate research. You start a pylon at the bottom of their ramp as soon as you can (while attacking with your 1 zealot and 6 stalkers)
I really don't get why you don't just make 2 Zealots and 6 Stalkers >_< The initial push is so much stronger that way and it doesn't even come later
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if they put it juz barely enough to warp in unit. i am sure 2 stalker block or so will prevent that from happening. His army should be smaller than yours so your existing army would be able to clear any units that move up the ramp before you manage to FF). Which is why i believe we do not need 4 gate to counter 4 gate. In fact i have been trying to get 2 gate before zealot to crank up units. It's would produce the same number of units as a standard 3 gate for the first warp in.
Another point to of interest would be i find zealot more useful to stop 4 gate with a couple of sentry and 2/3 stalkers. As zealots are tanks, they are able to focus down the warping in units while restanding the abuse of the enemy stalkers. Correct me if i'm wrong that warping in units take extra dmg from your zealot too. Spoting for such pylons are important too so place 1/2 pylon at possible locations for spotting.
Which set of warp-in did he did on you? Normally after the first 1/2 set you shld have enough stalker/sentry to destroy the pylon before it's done. When i lose to 4 gate it's either i screw up my build abit (getting sentry first for instance, thks skiyo for letting me know the reason i lost) or get caught offguard with his pylon.
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It's be nice to see some pictures as I've never seen this in action.
Wouldn't the best fix to just require vision for warp-in (which is already the case and this sounds like a bug?)
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First of all, you can't hold a 4 gate without at least 3 gates of your own. It just isn't doable. As soon as you see the other toss not CBing his nexus, that is your window to start CBing your gateways. You should be able to get out 3 more units than him when his warp gate tech finishes. His warp gate tech will be a good 30 seconds ahead of yours, so he will have full round of units when he reaches your base, and be 1 unit ahead+what he warps in on your ramp. That means that your stalkers are going to have to hold off 1 full round of zealots warping in before you can catch up. Be SURE that all your stalkers and sentries are as far back from the ramp as possible and still able to shoot units warping in at the top. If you do it properly, you'll just be getting your 1st warp in and 1st tech unit/blink when you finish off his 1st wave of zealots. From there, you should be able to hold reasonably safely.
If you scouted him opening something super aggressive like a 10 gate, you'll have to adapt accordingly by cutting probes.
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one sign i looking out for is if his nexus is making more probe. if i notice he has only 1 gas and his nexus stopped producing probe as it should... it's a huge sign he's 4 gating. look at the crystal above the nexus:D
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On January 13 2011 09:32 Skyro wrote:
It's be nice to see some pictures as I've never seen this in action.
Wouldn't the best fix to just require vision for warp-in (which is already the case and this sounds like a bug?)
You wind up with vision. Don't have pictures, but it's in every high level 4 gate. A pylon at the bottom of a ramp gets vision of the entire ramp, so you warp in a unit at the top of the ramp for vision of the high ground. Then you warp in the rest.
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This really isn't a "trick" and isn't new, it's actually been discussed before in the multitude of other PvP threads out there.
That being said, you're right and it is the reason why PvP is all about 4 gate vs 4 gate - which again, has been stated in the numerous other PvP threads out there.
I've seen a 3 gate 2 gas build hold off a 4 gate though, but it's definitely really really hard to do so.
For those people saying to get a lot of sentries or get an immortal out fast - that's the surest way to lose - tech too fast or invest too much in sentries and not have enough gateway firepower. An immortal isn't insta-win when half of the 4 gater's army consists of zealots.
The only solid way to winning is to do 4 gate yourself and defend, but getting slightly better eco. This can lead to some stupid mind games - both players can 4 gate and then try to defend, ending up with both players just sitting in their base. Whoever dares to build more probes wins. Or the other way around, risk building too many probes and if your opponent attacks with his 4 gate then you lose.
TL;DR: pvp sucks
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On January 13 2011 09:34 doggywarrior wrote:
one sign i looking out for is if his nexus is making more probe. if i notice he has only 1 gas and his nexus stopped producing probe as it should... it's a huge sign he's 4 gating. look at the crystal above the nexus:D
If I plan to 4 gate and his probe is sticking around in my main until my stalker finishes, I build probes and cancel them right before they finish so it looks like my nexus is working while I'm actually spending very little money and no supply. I also start my second gas for him to scout and cancel after my stalker chases the probe off. I probably wind up wasting 30-40 minerals on the decoy, but the denied information is much more valuable. They can't know what you're doing (they usually suspect tech), and if they go for a tech build, you win.
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I have been having problems defending this strat (actually you did it to me kcdc and lost), and is very very hard to stop if you dont 4 gate.
Like others said, you have to FF the bottom AND top of your ramp, because if you..
1.- FF the bottom they warp a zealot at the top of the ramp, and then they have total vision to warp the rest.
2.- FF the top, they send a zealot to the bottom/middle of the ramp, and that grant them vision so they can warp inside your base.
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On January 13 2011 09:40 Anihc wrote:
This really isn't a "trick" and isn't new, it's actually been discussed before in the multitude of other PvP threads out there.
That being said, you're right and it is the reason why PvP is all about 4 gate vs 4 gate - which again, has been stated in the numerous other PvP threads out there.
I've seen a 3 gate 2 gas build hold off a 4 gate though, but it's definitely really really hard to do so.
For those people saying to get a lot of sentries or get an immortal out fast - that's the surest way to lose - tech too fast or invest too much in sentries and not have enough gateway firepower. An immortal isn't insta-win when half of the 4 gater's army consists of zealots.
The only solid way to winning is to do 4 gate yourself and defend, but getting slightly better eco. This can lead to some stupid mind games - both players can 4 gate and then try to defend, ending up with both players just sitting in their base. Whoever dares to build more probes wins. Or the other way around, risk building too many probes and if your opponent attacks with his 4 gate then you lose.
TL;DR: pvp sucks
Agree with everything. It's certainly not new. It's standard at high levels. PvP would be better (tho still bad) if it wasn't possible.
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So what does a typical 4 gate look like these days? I stopped doing it a few months ago because I thought it was a crappy way to play, but I'm kind of interested in mixing it into my used strats while laddering. Sry if his is off topic (?)
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Protoss A goes 10 gate, gets 1 gas, cyber, and constantly CBs his gateway tech. He gets out 1 zealot, 1 stalker, and picks off Protoss B's sentry if he didn't open zealot stalker also. He cuts probes around 26, puts down 3 more gates, and builds his 26 pylon someplace out of the way. Then he just makes 1 more stalker saves up for when warp gates are done, warps in 4 stalkers at the proxy, and attacks with 6 stalkers and a zealot (some versions get a sentry somewhere along the way to have guardian shield, and warp in 3 stalkers and a zealot). They get to the front, build a proxy pylon, warp in 4 zealots on the ramp/high ground and Protoss B has a total of 5-6 units from his gateways, while Protoss A has 6 stalkers shooting from the bottom, +4 zealots attacking at the top
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couldn't you just forcefield the very bottom of the ramp and have 4+stalkers hold position at the top of the ramp and shoot zealots warping in? Even if he got one or two completely warped in they would be killed in a matter of seconds...
I 4 gated and someone did this to me...they stalled until they got a colossus out and I just died.
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On January 13 2011 10:09 dwightasian wrote:
couldn't you just forcefield the very bottom of the ramp and have 4+stalkers hold position at the top of the ramp and shoot zealots warping in? Even if he got one or two completely warped in they would be killed in a matter of seconds...
I 4 gated and someone did this to me...they stalled until they got a colossus out and I just died.
Well, due to the necessary 4-5 sentries that can easily be sniped from the bottom due to the warping zealots, and if you make 4 stalkers, you might not be able to afford replacement sentries + colossi.
In fact, you won't be able to get the robotic's bay for another minute (if you warp-in 4 stalkers), and if he somehow, just somehow, snipes 1 sentry, that all-important bay is delayed for around 30 seconds.
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On January 13 2011 09:40 Anihc wrote:
This really isn't a "trick" and isn't new, it's actually been discussed before in the multitude of other PvP threads out there.
That being said, you're right and it is the reason why PvP is all about 4 gate vs 4 gate - which again, has been stated in the numerous other PvP threads out there.
I've seen a 3 gate 2 gas build hold off a 4 gate though, but it's definitely really really hard to do so.
For those people saying to get a lot of sentries or get an immortal out fast - that's the surest way to lose - tech too fast or invest too much in sentries and not have enough gateway firepower. An immortal isn't insta-win when half of the 4 gater's army consists of zealots.
The only solid way to winning is to do 4 gate yourself and defend, but getting slightly better eco. This can lead to some stupid mind games - both players can 4 gate and then try to defend, ending up with both players just sitting in their base. Whoever dares to build more probes wins. Or the other way around, risk building too many probes and if your opponent attacks with his 4 gate then you lose.
TL;DR: pvp sucks
I agree with this post completely
btw i saw a bunch of euro PvP reps - dude, europeans play PvP so weird lol!
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You can 2 gate and hold off a 4 gate. The key is in knowing your opponent's warpgate timing and pressuring him early. If you can force a mistake or two, you can do serious damage before he can even do anything because his tech isn't finished. During the time before the tech finishes, most 4-gaters are not prepared to handle anything more than 2 zealots.
If you push with 2 zealots and a probe, you can target a pylon. At home, you should be able to clear your ramp with the second round of units, so that there's no proxy. At that point your opponent is forced to be defensive, you're economically ahead, and you can match his production.
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On January 13 2011 10:46 wherebugsgo wrote:
You can 2 gate and hold off a 4 gate. The key is in knowing your opponent's warpgate timing and pressuring him early. If you can force a mistake or two, you can do serious damage before he can even do anything because his tech isn't finished. During the time before the tech finishes, most 4-gaters are not prepared to handle anything more than 2 zealots.
If you push with 2 zealots and a probe, you can target a pylon. At home, you should be able to clear your ramp with the second round of units, so that there's no proxy. At that point your opponent is forced to be defensive, you're economically ahead, and you can match his production.
If he doesn't 4 gate, then it's a different story.
However, 2 gate works well in close positions, though, as it'll disrupt his BO.
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On January 13 2011 10:46 wherebugsgo wrote:
You can 2 gate and hold off a 4 gate. The key is in knowing your opponent's warpgate timing and pressuring him early. If you can force a mistake or two, you can do serious damage before he can even do anything because his tech isn't finished. During the time before the tech finishes, most 4-gaters are not prepared to handle anything more than 2 zealots.
If you push with 2 zealots and a probe, you can target a pylon. At home, you should be able to clear your ramp with the second round of units, so that there's no proxy. At that point your opponent is forced to be defensive, you're economically ahead, and you can match his production.
There are many variations of 4 gate, and any decent protoss is going to scout and adapt to their opponent's build. A 4 gate isn't strictly just 1 zealot 6 stalkers at 5:40 (or whenever the timing is). If you scout 2 gate, you adapt and drop your own 2nd gate and get more units to match his. Then you eventually get 2 more gates and you still end up 4 gating.
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Grunch: I'm pretty sure I saw some koreans on HuK's stream placing force fields like 1 hex above the bottom and this prevents the zealots warping in above them. Could be wrong, though.
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Does anybody have a replay of this ramp warp-in?
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On January 13 2011 08:40 kcdc wrote:
By placing a pylon at the bottom of your opponent's ramp slightly skewed off to the side, it's possible to warp in units over a forcefield and into your opponent's main without vision. Your units on the low ground have vision on the ramp, so you warp in a unit as far up as you can, immediately gaining a small area of vision in the main which you use to warp in the rest of your units. If your opponent has invested in sentries to defend your 4 gate, your 4 warped in zealots along with your stalkers firing from the low ground is usually enough to push him back from the ramp. Your stalkers then flood in and it's gg.
Wow KcDc u did it again!! I'm in masters and dont even know this trick. You just broke PvP. Better to close this treat to let less people know. Lol. Majority I'll say 95% of Protoss players do not know this and I just knew it from you. This is mainly due to the way Force Field is being created a hexagon shape, where opponent can still warp in from the edges. Good info mate!! We'll see pure 4 gating from now on.
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Somethings for consideration:
They'res a couple builds I do in PvP:
1. Adelscott 12/17 Gate, making 4 zealots / 2 stalkers, and pressuring your opponents base. From this you can transition into forge expand and then 2 more gates. Or, if you could not do enough dmg in the small early push you can put up forge and 2 gates and then expand.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/126850-1v1-protoss-jungle-basin#rd:buildorder
2. I do a more econ friendly 4 gate where I never stop makin probes. What I do is not such a fast warpgate research and I make more earlier units. While cyber is finishing I make a zealot, then chrono boost the stalker and the cyber when cyber finishes. Make another stalker and a 2nd gateway at same time. As I'm doing this, I'm patrolling the map for map control and checking for proxies, killing probes and such. My warpgate tech finishes a little later and when it finishes I pressure his ramp. If he's done an aggressive 4 gate I'm ahead. If he techs I get a couple sentries out, make a concave around his ramp while I expand. These tend to work pretty well for me. I'm 2700 diamond. Maybe a little bit low, but I think the difference is just the number of mistakes people make.
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On January 13 2011 12:36 Acridice wrote:
2. I do a more econ friendly 4 gate where I never stop makin probes. What I do is not such a fast warpgate research and I make more earlier units. While cyber is finishing I make a zealot, then chrono boost the stalker and the cyber when cyber finishes. Make another stalker and a 2nd gateway at same time. As I'm doing this, I'm patrolling the map for map control and checking for proxies, killing probes and such. My warpgate tech finishes a little later and when it finishes I pressure his ramp. If he's done an aggressive 4 gate I'm ahead. If he techs I get a couple sentries out, make a concave around his ramp while I expand. These tend to work pretty well for me. I'm 2700 diamond. Maybe a little bit low, but I think the difference is just the number of mistakes people make.
Yes, it is because you are a bit low. There's nothing wrong with getting later warp gate tech but a 4 gate that cuts probes at 20 will absolutely destroy you if you don't cut probes at all.
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On January 13 2011 12:41 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 12:36 Acridice wrote:
2. I do a more econ friendly 4 gate where I never stop makin probes. What I do is not such a fast warpgate research and I make more earlier units. While cyber is finishing I make a zealot, then chrono boost the stalker and the cyber when cyber finishes. Make another stalker and a 2nd gateway at same time. As I'm doing this, I'm patrolling the map for map control and checking for proxies, killing probes and such. My warpgate tech finishes a little later and when it finishes I pressure his ramp. If he's done an aggressive 4 gate I'm ahead. If he techs I get a couple sentries out, make a concave around his ramp while I expand. These tend to work pretty well for me. I'm 2700 diamond. Maybe a little bit low, but I think the difference is just the number of mistakes people make. Yes, it is because you are a bit low. A 4 gate that cuts probes at 20 will absolutely destroy you if you don't cut probes.
yes, I understand that. I believe a 10gate deserves a different reaction, like the 2 gate zealot pressure strat. However, a standard 12 gate warpgate I believe I can beat with econ friendly 4 gate. here is why. If I can control the map and prevent the proxy doesn't that buy me enough time to get my warpgate tech up? plus I have the extra units I was producing out of the gateways before the warpgate comes up.
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totally agree with this thread. When the defending protoss player gets a centered Forcefield on his ramp the opposing player should not be able to warp up over the forcefield. Fix this and the matchup becomes much more diverse.
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On January 13 2011 12:47 Acridice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 12:41 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 12:36 Acridice wrote:
2. I do a more econ friendly 4 gate where I never stop makin probes. What I do is not such a fast warpgate research and I make more earlier units. While cyber is finishing I make a zealot, then chrono boost the stalker and the cyber when cyber finishes. Make another stalker and a 2nd gateway at same time. As I'm doing this, I'm patrolling the map for map control and checking for proxies, killing probes and such. My warpgate tech finishes a little later and when it finishes I pressure his ramp. If he's done an aggressive 4 gate I'm ahead. If he techs I get a couple sentries out, make a concave around his ramp while I expand. These tend to work pretty well for me. I'm 2700 diamond. Maybe a little bit low, but I think the difference is just the number of mistakes people make. Yes, it is because you are a bit low. A 4 gate that cuts probes at 20 will absolutely destroy you if you don't cut probes. yes, I understand that. I believe a 10gate deserves a different reaction, like the 2 gate zealot pressure strat. However, a standard 12 gate warpgate I believe I can beat with econ friendly 4 gate. here is why. If I can control the map and prevent the proxy doesn't that buy me enough time to get my warpgate tech up? plus I have the extra units I was producing out of the gateways before the warpgate comes up.
Any probe after the 16th on minerals takes about 3-4 minutes to pay for itself. Stopping proxy pylons buys you half a minute of time at most, depending on the map.
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i prefer to use a stalker blink but this technique is actually pretty nice what happens though if the force field is up too high?
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United States2806 Posts
I think a 3 gate with very late 2nd gas can hold it off. Someone had a screenshot of 8 stalkers 5 zealots at 6:25, though the best I've managed was 8 stalkers 4 zealots.
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On January 13 2011 13:18 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 12:47 Acridice wrote:On January 13 2011 12:41 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 12:36 Acridice wrote:
2. I do a more econ friendly 4 gate where I never stop makin probes. What I do is not such a fast warpgate research and I make more earlier units. While cyber is finishing I make a zealot, then chrono boost the stalker and the cyber when cyber finishes. Make another stalker and a 2nd gateway at same time. As I'm doing this, I'm patrolling the map for map control and checking for proxies, killing probes and such. My warpgate tech finishes a little later and when it finishes I pressure his ramp. If he's done an aggressive 4 gate I'm ahead. If he techs I get a couple sentries out, make a concave around his ramp while I expand. These tend to work pretty well for me. I'm 2700 diamond. Maybe a little bit low, but I think the difference is just the number of mistakes people make. Yes, it is because you are a bit low. A 4 gate that cuts probes at 20 will absolutely destroy you if you don't cut probes. yes, I understand that. I believe a 10gate deserves a different reaction, like the 2 gate zealot pressure strat. However, a standard 12 gate warpgate I believe I can beat with econ friendly 4 gate. here is why. If I can control the map and prevent the proxy doesn't that buy me enough time to get my warpgate tech up? plus I have the extra units I was producing out of the gateways before the warpgate comes up. Any probe after the 16th on minerals takes about 3-4 minutes to pay for itself. Stopping proxy pylons buys you half a minute of time at most, depending on the map.
Ok, but even so, the minute of time it buys me gets my warpgate tech up, and I don't think my extra probes are going to interfere with my production.
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I've been saying since beta that PvP: if you expand or tech, you lose. Yay for the stupidest MU ever. (Worse than BW ZvZ)
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They'res nothing stupid about it. It's a bit restrictive, but that's just how the matchup goes. You do NOT have to 4gate everytime. There ARE other options. And no, you can't expand early but you CAN expand. And if you go 3 gates 1 production cycle and then robo you CAN tech.
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On January 13 2011 13:21 Acridice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 13:18 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 12:47 Acridice wrote:On January 13 2011 12:41 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 12:36 Acridice wrote:
2. I do a more econ friendly 4 gate where I never stop makin probes. What I do is not such a fast warpgate research and I make more earlier units. While cyber is finishing I make a zealot, then chrono boost the stalker and the cyber when cyber finishes. Make another stalker and a 2nd gateway at same time. As I'm doing this, I'm patrolling the map for map control and checking for proxies, killing probes and such. My warpgate tech finishes a little later and when it finishes I pressure his ramp. If he's done an aggressive 4 gate I'm ahead. If he techs I get a couple sentries out, make a concave around his ramp while I expand. These tend to work pretty well for me. I'm 2700 diamond. Maybe a little bit low, but I think the difference is just the number of mistakes people make. Yes, it is because you are a bit low. A 4 gate that cuts probes at 20 will absolutely destroy you if you don't cut probes. yes, I understand that. I believe a 10gate deserves a different reaction, like the 2 gate zealot pressure strat. However, a standard 12 gate warpgate I believe I can beat with econ friendly 4 gate. here is why. If I can control the map and prevent the proxy doesn't that buy me enough time to get my warpgate tech up? plus I have the extra units I was producing out of the gateways before the warpgate comes up. Any probe after the 16th on minerals takes about 3-4 minutes to pay for itself. Stopping proxy pylons buys you half a minute of time at most, depending on the map. Ok, but even so, the minute of time it buys me gets my warpgate tech up, and I don't think my extra probes are going to interfere with my production.
It has nothing to do with warpgate tech. Basically every 2 probes you make for awhile is going to be an extra zealot for the other player. Given that the defender's advantage is small enough as is, that extra 2 or so zealots or stalkers that your opponent has more than you is more than enough to give him the edge to win the game.
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On January 13 2011 13:31 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 13:21 Acridice wrote:On January 13 2011 13:18 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 12:47 Acridice wrote:On January 13 2011 12:41 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 12:36 Acridice wrote:
2. I do a more econ friendly 4 gate where I never stop makin probes. What I do is not such a fast warpgate research and I make more earlier units. While cyber is finishing I make a zealot, then chrono boost the stalker and the cyber when cyber finishes. Make another stalker and a 2nd gateway at same time. As I'm doing this, I'm patrolling the map for map control and checking for proxies, killing probes and such. My warpgate tech finishes a little later and when it finishes I pressure his ramp. If he's done an aggressive 4 gate I'm ahead. If he techs I get a couple sentries out, make a concave around his ramp while I expand. These tend to work pretty well for me. I'm 2700 diamond. Maybe a little bit low, but I think the difference is just the number of mistakes people make. Yes, it is because you are a bit low. A 4 gate that cuts probes at 20 will absolutely destroy you if you don't cut probes. yes, I understand that. I believe a 10gate deserves a different reaction, like the 2 gate zealot pressure strat. However, a standard 12 gate warpgate I believe I can beat with econ friendly 4 gate. here is why. If I can control the map and prevent the proxy doesn't that buy me enough time to get my warpgate tech up? plus I have the extra units I was producing out of the gateways before the warpgate comes up. Any probe after the 16th on minerals takes about 3-4 minutes to pay for itself. Stopping proxy pylons buys you half a minute of time at most, depending on the map. Ok, but even so, the minute of time it buys me gets my warpgate tech up, and I don't think my extra probes are going to interfere with my production. It has nothing to do with warpgate tech. Basically every 2 probes you make for awhile is going to be an extra zealot for the other player. Given that the defender's advantage is small enough as is, that extra 2 or so zealots or stalkers that your opponent has more than you is more than enough to give him the edge to win the game.
I'm sorry, I'm still having trouble understanding this. If I can produce off all 4 gates as I build probes, how is this not even. Are you saying that if I make extra probes, I can't continue to produce on 4 gates?
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Like sweeps said you can get your units out but the micro of those units that you get out is key to defending this type of 4gate all in. If you are not 4gating yourself the safest build is a 1.5 gate robo aka 1 gate into robo and another gate asap this is to improve your production until you manage to get those immortals out get your firstzellot and you want to focus on getting 3-4 sentries out asap and ff bottom of ramP keeping your eyes on it if he manage to sneak in you want to make sure you units are on hold especially your zelot this causes more micro mistake on his end give you units free hits on his btw you have 3 warp gates a few bedew this point just get stalkers and immortals and you can even miss ff on Purpose to get more unit kills when you feel you have the game
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On January 13 2011 13:50 sGmKana wrote:
Like sweeps said you can get your units out but the micro of those units that you get out is key to defending this type of 4gate all in. If you are not 4gating yourself the safest build is a 1.5 gate robo aka 1 gate into robo and another gate asap this is to improve your production until you manage to get those immortals out get your firstzellot and you want to focus on getting 3-4 sentries out asap and ff bottom of ramP keeping your eyes on it if he manage to sneak in you want to make sure you units are on hold especially your zelot this causes more micro mistake on his end give you units free hits on his btw you have 3 warp gates a few bedew this point just get stalkers and immortals and you can even miss ff on Purpose to get more unit kills when you feel you have the game
Dude.... sentences and punctuation. You may have good ideas. But I cannot understand you
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On January 13 2011 13:50 sGmKana wrote:
Like sweeps said you can get your units out but the micro of those units that you get out is key to defending this type of 4gate all in. If you are not 4gating yourself the safest build is a 1.5 gate robo aka 1 gate into robo and another gate asap this is to improve your production until you manage to get those immortals out get your firstzellot and you want to focus on getting 3-4 sentries out asap and ff bottom of ramP keeping your eyes on it if he manage to sneak in you want to make sure you units are on hold especially your zelot this causes more micro mistake on his end give you units free hits on his btw you have 3 warp gates a few bedew this point just get stalkers and immortals and you can even miss ff on Purpose to get more unit kills when you feel you have the game
Punctuation. Please.
The point of a 4gate is that it overwhelms you with units, even if you have higher tech. Micro is key, yes, but numbers just as much. Also, you're not going to be able to get 3-4 sentries, a robo, and an immortal when a 4gate hits. Holding a 4gate off is not easy.
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Actually, it's possible to deny vision and warpgate warping with a ff at the top of the ramp with the top of the ff level with the top edge of the ramp.
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On January 13 2011 13:57 BlackMesa wrote:
Actually, it's possible to deny vision and warpgate warping with a ff at the top of the ramp with the top of the ff level with the top edge of the ramp.
Yup, that's how i usually stop this. I had to practice this with a friend ~10 times to get the FF right to block vision.
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On January 13 2011 13:38 Acridice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 13:31 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 13:21 Acridice wrote:On January 13 2011 13:18 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 12:47 Acridice wrote:On January 13 2011 12:41 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 12:36 Acridice wrote:
2. I do a more econ friendly 4 gate where I never stop makin probes. What I do is not such a fast warpgate research and I make more earlier units. While cyber is finishing I make a zealot, then chrono boost the stalker and the cyber when cyber finishes. Make another stalker and a 2nd gateway at same time. As I'm doing this, I'm patrolling the map for map control and checking for proxies, killing probes and such. My warpgate tech finishes a little later and when it finishes I pressure his ramp. If he's done an aggressive 4 gate I'm ahead. If he techs I get a couple sentries out, make a concave around his ramp while I expand. These tend to work pretty well for me. I'm 2700 diamond. Maybe a little bit low, but I think the difference is just the number of mistakes people make. Yes, it is because you are a bit low. A 4 gate that cuts probes at 20 will absolutely destroy you if you don't cut probes. yes, I understand that. I believe a 10gate deserves a different reaction, like the 2 gate zealot pressure strat. However, a standard 12 gate warpgate I believe I can beat with econ friendly 4 gate. here is why. If I can control the map and prevent the proxy doesn't that buy me enough time to get my warpgate tech up? plus I have the extra units I was producing out of the gateways before the warpgate comes up. Any probe after the 16th on minerals takes about 3-4 minutes to pay for itself. Stopping proxy pylons buys you half a minute of time at most, depending on the map. Ok, but even so, the minute of time it buys me gets my warpgate tech up, and I don't think my extra probes are going to interfere with my production. It has nothing to do with warpgate tech. Basically every 2 probes you make for awhile is going to be an extra zealot for the other player. Given that the defender's advantage is small enough as is, that extra 2 or so zealots or stalkers that your opponent has more than you is more than enough to give him the edge to win the game. I'm sorry, I'm still having trouble understanding this. If I can produce off all 4 gates as I build probes, how is this not even. Are you saying that if I make extra probes, I can't continue to produce on 4 gates?
... but you can't. You can't even fully support 3 gateways constantly with a full mining base (30 probes), much less 4 gateways and a nexus off of not fully saturated base.
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[/QUOTE]
... but you can't. You can't even fully support 3 gateways constantly with a full mining base (30 probes), much less 4 gateways and a nexus off of not fully saturated base.
[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry man, I'm having trouble believing this. And, it is inconsistent. Not only that but I have been able to produce out of 4 gateways on one base. And there is no way you can't support 3 gateways on a fully saturated base. Please, what league / level are you at?
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I'm glad you posted this because I was starting to feel the same way.
I've been trying to do 3 gate robo into expand but a high econ 4 gate ( sometimes even 5 ) just keeps on with wave after wave, and most bases have easy places to warp in units into your base. I'm sure if I had better micro I might be able to hold it off, but i'm finding it pretty difficult in a lot of games ( platinum ).
The last time I had any real success pvp was when i just went 4 gate every game, maybe it's time to just go back to that and take my chances.
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United States2806 Posts
On January 13 2011 14:24 Acridice wrote:
I'm sorry man, I'm having trouble believing this. And, it is inconsistent. Not only that but I have been able to produce out of 4 gateways on one base. And there is no way you can't support 3 gateways on a fully saturated base. Please, what league / level are you at?
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2055009#blog
#9
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On January 13 2011 14:24 Acridice wrote:
I'm sorry man, I'm having trouble believing this. And, it is inconsistent. Not only that but I have been able to produce out of 4 gateways on one base. And there is no way you can't support 3 gateways on a fully saturated base. Please, what league / level are you at?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162717#15
Ok I lied, you can support 3 gateways with a fully saturated base if you don't count chrono boost or having to build pylons. I guess pylons may not really be a factor when your constantly attacking and losing your army but there's no reason not to factor in chrono boost, so my statement still stands. There has been nothing inconsistent to what I have said, the only thing that's inconsistent is a player's macro.
And why does it matter what league I'm in? Just look at the math.
EDIT: damnit Lagrangian :p
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Well, this is terrifying. At least the adelscott won't care either way, really, because of they way it deals with 4 gate
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On January 13 2011 14:49 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 14:24 Acridice wrote:
I'm sorry man, I'm having trouble believing this. And, it is inconsistent. Not only that but I have been able to produce out of 4 gateways on one base. And there is no way you can't support 3 gateways on a fully saturated base. Please, what league / level are you at? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162717#15Ok I lied, you can support 3 gateways with a fully saturated base if you don't count chrono boost or having to build pylons. I guess pylons may not really be a factor when your constantly attacking and losing your army but there's no reason not to factor in chrono boost, so my statement still stands. There has been nothing inconsistent to what I have said, the only thing that's inconsistent is a player's macro. And why does it matter what league I'm in? Just look at the math. EDIT: damnit Lagrangian :p
Would you agree that when you are attacking someone's base during a 4 gate it's really important to micro your units well since the loss of one unit can make the difference in a game. If so, isn't it worth 150 minerals to allow your macro to slip a little so you can micro as efficiently as possible?
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On January 13 2011 15:19 Khaladas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 14:49 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 14:24 Acridice wrote:
I'm sorry man, I'm having trouble believing this. And, it is inconsistent. Not only that but I have been able to produce out of 4 gateways on one base. And there is no way you can't support 3 gateways on a fully saturated base. Please, what league / level are you at? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162717#15Ok I lied, you can support 3 gateways with a fully saturated base if you don't count chrono boost or having to build pylons. I guess pylons may not really be a factor when your constantly attacking and losing your army but there's no reason not to factor in chrono boost, so my statement still stands. There has been nothing inconsistent to what I have said, the only thing that's inconsistent is a player's macro. And why does it matter what league I'm in? Just look at the math. EDIT: damnit Lagrangian :p Would you agree that when you are attacking someone's base during a 4 gate it's really important to micro your units well since the loss of one unit can make the difference in a game. If so, isn't it worth 150 minerals to allow your macro to slip a little so you can micro as efficiently as possible?
Oh I'm in full support of 4 gate, my argument is just that you can't indiscriminately produce probes non-stop.
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Can you post a replay of you doing this? i'll love you
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On January 13 2011 08:40 kcdc wrote:
By placing a pylon at the bottom of your opponent's ramp slightly skewed off to the side, it's possible to warp in units over a forcefield and into your opponent's main without vision. Your units on the low ground have vision on the ramp, so you warp in a unit as far up as you can, immediately gaining a small area of vision in the main which you use to warp in the rest of your units.
This pylon placement needs a screenshot to continue the discussion well. Also, a screenshot of the offending forcefield. The upper placed forcefield I seem to never be able to get over, but the bottom of ramp forcefield I can.
Sorry, words don't cut it for me ><
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Warpgates make pvp such a huge pain in the ass simply because 4gate is SOOOO easy to execute and so difficult to stop without going 4gate yourself. Maybe every nexus could have a psi field of some sort, and with every pylon, that field grows and every pylon within range of that field could sustain the warpin mechanic. But that's just a passing daydream for balancing pvp.
Personally I've just given up all hope in any build not 4gate because it's just too hard to defend with sentries and pray to survive til immortal comes out. Until a method to stop 4gate consistently appears, pvp will suck.
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zealot - stalker - sentry gives you 2 ffs for a 4 warpgate push.
If you make pure stalker off 3 gate (while heading for blink or robo) from there you are spending all your money because 1 base stalker can really only support 3 gates with pylons.
Just make sure you have 2 ff's left at all time and 1-2 zealots (warp in replacements/extra sentries).
When he warps onto your ramp/straight into base just pull your units back so his stalkers can't hit anything and pick off zealots with stalkers, using your 1 zealot to tank if necessary. And you just traded 1 zealot + damaged stalker shields for 4 zealots. Just make sure you know how to click your sentries and run them away if they get target fired by the zealots (sounds so basic but so many people herpderp and just stare at the screen watching the pretty stalkers shoot). If the zealots split to your probes just throw down that 2nd forcefield and you have 15 game seconds to kill the zealots which should not be hard.
I see people ff the ramp then stand there and just a click and wonder why they lose to a 4gate when they are letting the 5-6 stalkers get free hits on their units. The simple pulling units back sort of destroys 4 gate 4 zealot warpin.
Once immortals/blink is up 4 gate sort of just loses.
I haven't really lost to a 4 gate pvp in a really long time, but I don't really have a replay right now--if I remember I'll post one next time someone four gates me.
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On January 13 2011 15:49 Anihc wrote:![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-180421.jpg)
How did that game last so long when you were a full gateway up on him and him on 11 probes for half the battle?
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pvp is why I switched to terran, it's worse than zvz in bw.
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On January 13 2011 10:14 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 10:09 dwightasian wrote:
couldn't you just forcefield the very bottom of the ramp and have 4+stalkers hold position at the top of the ramp and shoot zealots warping in? Even if he got one or two completely warped in they would be killed in a matter of seconds...
I 4 gated and someone did this to me...they stalled until they got a colossus out and I just died. Well, due to the necessary 4-5 sentries that can easily be sniped from the bottom due to the warping zealots, and if you make 4 stalkers, you might not be able to afford replacement sentries + colossi. In fact, you won't be able to get the robotic's bay for another minute (if you warp-in 4 stalkers), and if he somehow, just somehow, snipes 1 sentry, that all-important bay is delayed for around 30 seconds.
4-5 sentries? Just make 1, FF ramp when his initial ground army shows up, if he warps units onto your high ground while the ramp is ff, just pull your stalkers back a bit and own the warping in units while the other ground units are locked out... should be basically 4 free kills at least, which is enough difference to hold off easily if you had 3 gateways.
Kind of sucks that pvp is the new zvz though. Warped in gateway units are the new speedlings and colossi are the new mutalisks. Almost everything else seems to be unviable =[ Blizzard never did find a way to make zvz interesting in BW though if you played zvz on maps that would be too large for any other matchup you'd have a much better chance of seeing hive tech and getting interesting games more often. Obviously that's not practical for serious tourneys/ladders. And larger maps probably wouldn't help pvp anyways since warping in is instant.
My suggested fix (at least for warpgate rush): You cannot warp into an enemy player's energy field. His pylon's energy field blocks your pylon's energy field (and vice versa). Then you could use pylons to more easily block units from warping onto your main's high ground, and use chained sentries to hold your ramp with a small army against gateway units long enough to get out your tech, like you can against the other races. EDIT-- as an added bonus, this blocks the lame-ass cannon rushes that are terrorizing the lower ranks too.
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can't they shoot the pylon down from their side with stalkers or no?
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On January 13 2011 17:49 .kv wrote:
can't they shoot the pylon down from their side with stalkers or no?
1) pylons warp in faster than a small number of stalkers can take them down. But if you have enough stalkers to prevent 1 pylon from warping in, he can just build 2 or even 3 and cancel the ones that are more hurt anyways.
2) He will already have 5 or 6 stalkers on the low ground trying to climb your ramp while this is happening, which if you went for a tech build outnumber you. While you are wasting shots on his pylon, his stalkers are shooting you. Unless of course you have a sentry and have awesome enough reaction time to get a ff off on the bottom of your ramp before even 1 of his units starts climbing the ramp and gives vision. If you pull back a little and kill that one unit you have now wasted more than enough time for his pylon(s) to finish warping in.
Theoretically with perfect play and a large enough stalker count you might be able to slow down his pylon warp-in and waste some of his money by forcing him to make 2 or 3 pylons but there's no way you could actually stop him from getting a pylon up and warping into your main base without having gone 4 gate yourself. The only thing you can do is have enough units and good enough micro to stop him even though he will be able to warp into your main basically no matter what you do.
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people that think that you can only defend 4 gate with a 4 gate must lack of creativity or are really brainwashed by "standards".
I defend with just 2 gates and I´am rather concerned if the opponents just contains me than sacrificing half of his army on my ramp
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Okay for those of you, like me, that like pictures =).
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/07tB7.jpg)
Figure 1: Forcefield is in exact middle on the bottom, zealots warped in above it using vision from units below the forcefield
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/iQEN5.jpg)
Figure 2: Forcefield is in exact middle of the top, zealots can warp in with the same pylon above the forcefield.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/jx1yg.jpg)
Figure 3: Second Pylon is placed closer to allow multiple units to be warped in on the top.
Figured it was true, thank you for the replay Anihc.
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Wow. So this is why people are complaining. I haven't played much PvP recently so I didn't really know about this, but now I feel stupid.
The only way you could hold this is with 2 forcefields at a time? It still sounds retarded.
PvP is forever the broken retarded mirror. I really hate warpgates. They just seem to break all the rules of RTS and make every MU stupid, but this is absolutely ridiculous.
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United States8476 Posts
There is a spot on the ramp you can forcefield to prevent warpins into your base approximately half the time, around the top of the ramp. It depends on the positioning on his units on the bottom of the ramp and what vision they have, but at least it's one semi effectively way to prevent warpins.
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On January 13 2011 20:04 4kmonk wrote:
There is a spot on the ramp you can forcefield to prevent warpins into your base approximately half the time, around the top of the ramp. It depends on the positioning on his units on the bottom of the ramp and what vision they have, but at least it's one semi effectively way to prevent warpins.
Do you have a picture? I've tried all sorts of high ramp FF but it only results in opponent walking up the ramp to gain vision...
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On January 13 2011 20:04 4kmonk wrote:
There is a spot on the ramp you can forcefield to prevent warpins into your base approximately half the time, around the top of the ramp. It depends on the positioning on his units on the bottom of the ramp and what vision they have, but at least it's one semi effectively way to prevent warpins.
Untrue. I spent 15 minutes of nothing but placed forcefields and vision warpin to determine every possible forcefield spot leaves vision enough to warp in zealots above it. It may be that your opponent did not have his pylon close enough (sometimes you place a second closer for better top-of-ramp warpins). Refer to my pictures on Page 4 for the placement of second pylon for added damage.
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Can the OP please post a replay?
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United States8476 Posts
On January 13 2011 21:50 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 20:04 4kmonk wrote:
There is a spot on the ramp you can forcefield to prevent warpins into your base approximately half the time, around the top of the ramp. It depends on the positioning on his units on the bottom of the ramp and what vision they have, but at least it's one semi effectively way to prevent warpins. Untrue. I spent 15 minutes of nothing but placed forcefields and vision warpin to determine every possible forcefield spot leaves vision enough to warp in zealots above it. It may be that your opponent did not have his pylon close enough (sometimes you place a second closer for better top-of-ramp warpins). Refer to my pictures on Page 4 for the placement of second pylon for added damage.
I tried it a few days ago and as I said, it kinda works half the time. I had pylons at the right places and half the time I could warp in by forcing units up the ramp while spamming zealots at the ledge. The other half, I couldn't. I think it has to do with exactly where your stalkers are on the ramp below the forcefield. However, you're probably right as you've tested it for 15 minutes.
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On January 13 2011 15:49 Anihc wrote:
I think you showed the spot but actually when you did the over ramp warpin , didnt you have a zealot on top so you had vision anyway.
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United States1307 Posts
Are you sure that you can warp in on a ramp?
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I've been having the same exact qualms, kcdc. This is the exact build I use in every one of my PvP's now simply because if the opponent isn't 4gating . . . you pretty much win. On the flip side, I'm not about to give the other person the opportunity to use this against me. I almost feel bad for the opponent if they open with any type of 2gas build as it's basically impossible to stop the warp-in-up-the-ramp-thingy or whatever you wanna call it. If anyone has had success stopping this build against a competent protoss player, please post a replay.
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On January 13 2011 22:08 confusedcrib wrote:
Are you sure that you can warp in on a ramp?
This is true. I seen this in a pro match before, but I don't remember who against who. The only thing I remembered was it was either 4 gate vs 3 gate robo or 4 gate vs 4 gate.
The offensive 4 gater won.
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On January 13 2011 19:29 Danglars wrote:Okay for those of you, like me, that like pictures =). Figure 1: Forcefield is in exact middle on the bottom, zealots warped in above it using vision from units below the forcefieldFigure 2: Forcefield is in exact middle of the top, zealots can warp in with the same pylon above the forcefield.Figure 3: Second Pylon is placed closer to allow multiple units to be warped in on the top.Figured it was true, thank you for the replay Anihc.
You can also get the job done with 1 pylon by placing the first pylon a little closer and skewed to the side a bit. The position rsvp used is good because it's almost impossible to snipe from the high ground, but if the defender doesn't have a good stalker count, you can put your first pylon in a more aggressive position to start warping in all of your units up the ramp faster.
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I do this. What i do though is move the pylon farther away. Then i send 1 zealot up the ramp to get vision and warp in zealots on the top. When they go to fight the zealots then i run up the ramp. I have seen this done in the GSL.
Also if you watch the NSPGenius game where he stops the blink stalkers from getting up his ramp. it would work for this also.
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On January 13 2011 11:02 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 10:46 wherebugsgo wrote:
You can 2 gate and hold off a 4 gate. The key is in knowing your opponent's warpgate timing and pressuring him early. If you can force a mistake or two, you can do serious damage before he can even do anything because his tech isn't finished. During the time before the tech finishes, most 4-gaters are not prepared to handle anything more than 2 zealots.
If you push with 2 zealots and a probe, you can target a pylon. At home, you should be able to clear your ramp with the second round of units, so that there's no proxy. At that point your opponent is forced to be defensive, you're economically ahead, and you can match his production. There are many variations of 4 gate, and any decent protoss is going to scout and adapt to their opponent's build. A 4 gate isn't strictly just 1 zealot 6 stalkers at 5:40 (or whenever the timing is). If you scout 2 gate, you adapt and drop your own 2nd gate and get more units to match his. Then you eventually get 2 more gates and you still end up 4 gating.
The cyber for a K4G comes right before/with the 2nd gate. Thus, it's entirely reactionary. Basically, if I scout a 10 gate, I know what's coming, and I put down 2 gates. The end result is usually pretty micro intensive, but it's really easy to hold the bottom of your ramp when you've made units out of your 2 gateways while the opponent has chronoboosted tech and made 2 zealots at most.
The end result is that it's impossible for the 4-gater to get a pylon down, since you can kill his probe and protect your ramp so easily. He'll have to warp at home, and that walk time of 30 or so seconds is enough for you to have a significant advantage.
Alternatively against a regular 12 gate variation you can be offensive.
Precisely the reason 1 gate robo builds and any 1 gate core builds can't hold a K4G is because you can't control your own ramp. With a 2 gate core the scout probe is shooed, and with practice you can learn to keep it away. With time, IMO, K4G in PvP will become cheese just like 4 gate dragoon in BW, and builds like 2 gate expand and 2 gate robo will become more standard.
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On January 14 2011 00:50 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 11:02 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 10:46 wherebugsgo wrote:
You can 2 gate and hold off a 4 gate. The key is in knowing your opponent's warpgate timing and pressuring him early. If you can force a mistake or two, you can do serious damage before he can even do anything because his tech isn't finished. During the time before the tech finishes, most 4-gaters are not prepared to handle anything more than 2 zealots.
If you push with 2 zealots and a probe, you can target a pylon. At home, you should be able to clear your ramp with the second round of units, so that there's no proxy. At that point your opponent is forced to be defensive, you're economically ahead, and you can match his production. There are many variations of 4 gate, and any decent protoss is going to scout and adapt to their opponent's build. A 4 gate isn't strictly just 1 zealot 6 stalkers at 5:40 (or whenever the timing is). If you scout 2 gate, you adapt and drop your own 2nd gate and get more units to match his. Then you eventually get 2 more gates and you still end up 4 gating. The cyber for a K4G comes right before/with the 2nd gate. Thus, it's entirely reactionary. Basically, if I scout a 10 gate, I know what's coming, and I put down 2 gates. The end result is usually pretty micro intensive, but it's really easy to hold the bottom of your ramp when you've made units out of your 2 gateways while the opponent has chronoboosted tech and made 2 zealots at most. The end result is that it's impossible for the 4-gater to get a pylon down, since you can kill his probe and protect your ramp so easily. He'll have to warp at home, and that walk time of 30 or so seconds is enough for you to have a significant advantage. Alternatively against a regular 12 gate variation you can be offensive. Precisely the reason 1 gate robo builds and any 1 gate core builds can't hold a K4G is because you can't control your own ramp. With a 2 gate core the scout probe is shooed, and with practice you can learn to keep it away. With time, IMO, K4G in PvP will become cheese just like 4 gate dragoon in BW, and builds like 2 gate expand and 2 gate robo will become more standard.
Who's talking about K4G? Also, zealots are useless for holding the bottom of your ramp. They get picked off for free by stalkers.
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Good points brought up, but I'm pretty sure anyone watching high level PvP has seen this trick a multitude of times.
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Yeah, I've seen this a few times. The real issue is whether or not this is constraining the matchup. I happen to think it is--not to mention colossi wars--but I guess it's a matter of whether or not Blizzard thinks this is worth addressing. I assume they're aware of this issue, but have they made any comments on it?
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Did the OP mensioned something new?
I actually think that 4 gate vs 4 gate is pretty cool. Micro is so important in this matchup.
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On January 13 2011 10:59 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 10:46 wherebugsgo wrote:
You can 2 gate and hold off a 4 gate. The key is in knowing your opponent's warpgate timing and pressuring him early. If you can force a mistake or two, you can do serious damage before he can even do anything because his tech isn't finished. During the time before the tech finishes, most 4-gaters are not prepared to handle anything more than 2 zealots.
If you push with 2 zealots and a probe, you can target a pylon. At home, you should be able to clear your ramp with the second round of units, so that there's no proxy. At that point your opponent is forced to be defensive, you're economically ahead, and you can match his production. If he doesn't 4 gate, then it's a different story. However, 2 gate works well in close positions, though, as it'll disrupt his BO.
I agree with your point here, but nobody in their right mind would continue to try and 4 gate if they scouted a double 10 gate or 10-12 gate zealot rush in close positions. I find that I MUST react to a 2 gate with either a cannon or a 2 gate or I just lose.
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damn, my Random play is so weak aside from Terran. Looks like I got a lot of replays to watch. Sorry for OT.
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I've already gotten used to it. A one dimensional build isn't that bad. I'd rather have this than back in beta when there were (seemingly) 5+ viable builds.
And more often than not, a high level pvp (e.g. two that I had in the past few days vs Time & Azz) will evolve from the four gate into a late game with robo and/or stargate tech.
The key is to fit in probes when you can and sneak your second gas in when you can.
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On January 14 2011 02:44 Anomandaris wrote:
Did the OP mensioned something new?
I actually think that 4 gate vs 4 gate is pretty cool. Micro is so important in this matchup.
No, nothing new. Micro is cool I suppose, but having multiple strategic options would be cooler.
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I'm watching response's channel right now and they are testing this live.
In their testing they are generally able to hold off the 4 gate with zealot, sentry, stalker, sentry sentry off 3 gates then just sentry/stalker, and work on getting your robo up while pumping probes. You need a lot of sentries so you can Double FF the ramp so they don't have any place to warp in units or visibility to warp to higher ground. It's kind of touchy and if you miss a FF it's GG, but it seems possible anyway.
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I actually do not mind having to 4gate, it sort of removes the randomness that was present in the beta where PvP felt like playing a elaborate game of rock paper scissors. In the games i had where both players 4gated and did not cripple the other it sort of evolved into mass zealot/stalker/colossus, which is what would happen anyways if you wanted to go 3gate robo. In my opinion going robo and being greeted by void rays was the worst thing ever. I would rather lose in a micro war where one zealot sneaking into your mineral line could mean everything because it was not completely out of my control.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
You can place forcefields so that no units can be warped over them and blick stalkers can not blink up.
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On January 14 2011 00:14 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 19:29 Danglars wrote:Okay for those of you, like me, that like pictures =). Figure 1: Forcefield is in exact middle on the bottom, zealots warped in above it using vision from units below the forcefieldFigure 2: Forcefield is in exact middle of the top, zealots can warp in with the same pylon above the forcefield.Figure 3: Second Pylon is placed closer to allow multiple units to be warped in on the top.Figured it was true, thank you for the replay Anihc. You can also get the job done with 1 pylon by placing the first pylon a little closer and skewed to the side a bit. The position rsvp used is good because it's almost impossible to snipe from the high ground, but if the defender doesn't have a good stalker count, you can put your first pylon in a more aggressive position to start warping in all of your units up the ramp faster.
Yeah I wanted to demonstrate both, because a defensive 4warpgate with high stalker count can get good snipes. So the last picture has an example second pylon positioning in a more aggressive style.
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This hasn't happened to me yet in any of the PvPs I've played. Granted, I'm low diamond, but I open games with a delayed gas, two gates, and then pressuring with a handful of zealots and a couple of stalkers. I can normally get ahead economically enough that the game turns into colossi v colossi.
I feel like earlier pressure circumvents the warping into your base, as long as you can hit before their warpgates kick in.
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On January 14 2011 06:01 Khaladas wrote:
I'm watching response's channel right now and they are testing this live.
In their testing they are generally able to hold off the 4 gate with zealot, sentry, stalker, sentry sentry off 3 gates then just sentry/stalker, and work on getting your robo up while pumping probes. You need a lot of sentries so you can Double FF the ramp so they don't have any place to warp in units or visibility to warp to higher ground. It's kind of touchy and if you miss a FF it's GG, but it seems possible anyway.
So they found a way to get those sentries and survive a zealot/stalker poke early on? I'd be interested to see this.
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Umm, control your sentries well? It is possible to FF right at the bottom of the ramp (as oGsMC and other tosses have done) so that your opponent can't gain vision up your ramp.
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On January 16 2011 16:07 EnderPR wrote:
Umm, control your sentries well? It is possible to FF right at the bottom of the ramp (as oGsMC and other tosses have done) so that your opponent can't gain vision up your ramp.
... did you even read OP?
It's definitely possible to hold with 3 gate (and possibly 2 gate can stall long enough to get an immortal out and trade favorably), though, since you can force field and when they warp in a zealot follow by 2-3 more zealots you focus them down while not losing units to their stalkers at the bottom of the ramp, and keep the ramp force fielded.
If you successfully do this to 1-2 rounds of zealot warp ins it's an auto-win; you can't afford to trade 3-4 zealots for about 1 unit and 2 force fields more than once before you get completely overwhelmed.
EDIT: Personally I've had success holding 4 gates with 2 gate going zealot sentry sentry out of the first gate. I haven't tested it a whole lot, though. Against the standard 20 probe 4 gate that comes with 1 zealot+2 stalkers you can easily force field them out forever, and by the time they warp in their second round (to gain vision using the mechanic described in OP) you will have 4 sentries+3 zealots to focus down the zealots warped in above the force field. They have 6 stalkers able to shoot up at you from below the ramp, though, so it's very close, definitely helps if they get a stalker caught from the first 3 units.
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this is new to you people? i've been doing this for ages...
but it seems i must come back to 4 gating PvP - it's the only thing that's holding me back from masters. i almost lose every PvP no matter what strategy i go or my opponent goes, i only win when their micro is terrible.
does everyone else just 4 gate all-in each time? i'm sick and tired of losing.
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that's pretty much how it goes silidons, a "standard" "normal" match of pvp involves both players 4 gating and intense micro until one player makes too many mistakes and loses. Occasionally you get games where the attacking player gets repelled, but the defending player didn't manage to get a proxy pylon in a good position before getting attacked so the defender can't immediately counter. In that situation, both players should immediately start to tech and continue to mass gateway units. After observers are out, the players can decide to expand or not.
However, 3 gate builds that rely on sentries to cut the enemy army in half and achieve advantage that way are increasingly popular.
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Despite this old trick I still think the defender has a pretty sizeable advantage. You just can't invest in too many sentries and you need a significant amount of stalkers to defend.
The trick for the defender is just not to place the forcefield too early. Let a few (2 or 3) units come up the ramp and then cut off the rest with FF. Then focus fire anything on top of the ramp, especially the units that get warped in, and make sure to hold the zealots back a little bit. The biggest reason people defending a 4 gate usually lose is that they let the aggresive player use their stalkers on your zealots, if you just use stalkers and sentries only it is easy to pick off the units that get warped in while losing nothing.
Having more then 1 or 2 sentries in your army at any time in PvP is bad and often an autoloss though. Either the aggressor just gets up the ramp by using one of many tricks (blink, pylon near the edge or hallucinated colossus all do the job) or the other player has a significant tech advantage. Just never ever make more then 1 sentry early but rely on units instead to defend and you'll have a much easier time defending against 4 gate's.
I do think at some point warping in near the other should be slightly nerfed to slightly nerf P's aggresive options. For example let the warpin procedure last 3 more secs so the units are vulnerable for a longer time but keep the length of a warp cycle (time between warping zealot#1 and #2) the same.
Never the less it's really easy to beat 4 gate's if you want. DT tech for example with 1 sentry to hold the ramp for a small while (just need to buy some time only) does really well. THey might get up the ramp slightly before DT finish but when they do they immediately give control of the game. Also with good stalker usage you can often snipe the pylon near the ramp before it gets up while still being able to control the ramp with FF. It is definately not hard to tech at all in PvP, the real problem lies with the fact that a 4 gate is VERY hard to scout 100%. If they delay boosting the warpgate tech just a little till after your scout is dead there is almost no way to know if they 4 gate, a 1 gate FE for example has the same exact build as a 4 gate early on.
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Have you tried to forcefield but block the space right behind it so warping isn't possible? Genius did it in a game this season (I think it was against anypro) and blick stalkers couldn't blink in, even if they had the vision of the base. The things is not to deny the vision (wich is hard to do since you don,t know what your opponent see), but to block the space your opponent can use with your army. So you block your ramp at the top (not at the bottom), rally your army right next to it to avoided being blunk/warped in, and it should do the trick. I would really want to see a replay of it failing.
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Warp-in should be removed from game (or nerfor for example to warp-in only fo pylon that power up you gate) because it removes defenders advantage.
In TvT you can defend 3 rax with 2 rax easy simply because it takes 50sec to get on other side of map (attacking with ~6 less units), sometimes even 1 rax if you scout and play good (and opponent attacks early).
Same goes for TvZ or ZvZ, because defenders advantage exists there.
However in PvZ, PvT and PvP protoss always have advantage no matter whether they are attacking or defending, and this advantage completely overrides defenders advantage so you can beat perfect 4gate with only perfect 4game and you as defender wont even have advantage. Its such a stupid gamebreaking skill, it should have been kept for LoV campaign similar to Tech Reactors.
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neh there is still a defenders advantage. The aggressor has to put pylons in vulnerable places (meaning he can't retreat easily) and the aggressor still has to get up the ramp which still puts him at a disadvantage.
It isn't hard at all to beat a 4 gate. It's hard to scout and be sure a 4 gate is coming while still being able to counter it..
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On January 16 2011 21:52 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Warp-in should be removed from game (or nerfor for example to warp-in only fo pylon that power up you gate) because it removes defenders advantage.
In TvT you can defend 3 rax with 2 rax easy simply because it takes 50sec to get on other side of map (attacking with ~6 less units), sometimes even 1 rax if you scout and play good (and opponent attacks early).
Same goes for TvZ or ZvZ, because defenders advantage exists there.
However in PvZ, PvT and PvP protoss always have advantage no matter whether they are attacking or defending, and this advantage completely overrides defenders advantage so you can beat perfect 4gate with only perfect 4game and you as defender wont even have advantage. Its such a stupid gamebreaking skill, it should have been kept for LoV campaign similar to Tech Reactors. \
That's an ignorant idea.
Warp-in is basically a protoss mechanic, same as the hatchery's larvae / creep or the terran's reactor / cheap tech-lab.
Warp-in is vulnerable when the units are warped in, and that's where you can destroy the units.
It's not game-breaking, and if we were forced to use our slow gateways EVERY match-up. We would honestly have a hard time. Zealots take years to get there.
Terrans have stim, so when they stim, they ALWAYS stim + kite back to their reinforcements.
Stalkers can do that, too, but you have to keep on micro-ing as they're not as fast ALLLLL the way to the slow zealots.
The only thing that should be nerfed is the ramp warp-in.
Also, sentries would be hard to get. OUR HERO UNITS.
15 seconds to cast a forcefield and around 42+ seconds to create a sentry.
We can barely create enough sentries to save our asses.
If you want to take away warp-in, take away your mules.
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People have already known about this. I was watching Response's stream the other day and he found out that if you ff twice (one at the bottom and one in the middle of the ramp) you can no longer warp in units at the top. You just have to be perfect with your ffs.
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the way warpgates work just breaks pvp, and the fact that forge builds so much faster than gateway breaks it even more...
i think the only way to prevent 4wg from crushing anything that is not 4wg is to make the time it takes to convert gateways into warpgates way longer. that way you dont get such an immediately huge unit advantage
ofc, right now this would be very hard to change since balance is really good and this would fuck up other matchups, but i really see no other way to ever fix pvp 
also, a metagame question: 3gate sentry might beat 4wg, but it loses to 2gate faster robo. so its basically rock paper scissors again?
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On January 16 2011 23:40 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 21:52 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Warp-in should be removed from game (or nerfor for example to warp-in only fo pylon that power up you gate) because it removes defenders advantage.
In TvT you can defend 3 rax with 2 rax easy simply because it takes 50sec to get on other side of map (attacking with ~6 less units), sometimes even 1 rax if you scout and play good (and opponent attacks early).
Same goes for TvZ or ZvZ, because defenders advantage exists there.
However in PvZ, PvT and PvP protoss always have advantage no matter whether they are attacking or defending, and this advantage completely overrides defenders advantage so you can beat perfect 4gate with only perfect 4game and you as defender wont even have advantage. Its such a stupid gamebreaking skill, it should have been kept for LoV campaign similar to Tech Reactors. \ That's an ignorant idea. Warp-in is basically a protoss mechanic, same as the hatchery's larvae / creep or the terran's reactor / cheap tech-lab. Warp-in is vulnerable when the units are warped in, and that's where you can destroy the units. It's not game-breaking, and if we were forced to use our slow gateways EVERY match-up. We would honestly have a hard time. Zealots take years to get there. Terrans have stim, so when they stim, they ALWAYS stim + kite back to their reinforcements. Stalkers can do that, too, but you have to keep on micro-ing as they're not as fast ALLLLL the way to the slow zealots. The only thing that should be nerfed is the ramp warp-in. Also, sentries would be hard to get. OUR HERO UNITS. 15 seconds to cast a forcefield and around 42+ seconds to create a sentry. We can barely create enough sentries to save our asses. If you want to take away warp-in, take away your mules.
Remove warp-in, make bigger maps and reduce gateway production time (and return cheaper and faster dark shrine) = big step towards balance.
Tell me, you dont want longer macro games where better players will win? Because as long as warp-in will remain in game, that is not possible.
So Im not asking for protoss nerf, im asking for removing warp-in and rebalancing gateway units. So games more affected by defender advantage and winners ae really better players, not players that can abuse ignoring map size.
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On January 16 2011 21:32 PatouPower wrote:
Have you tried to forcefield but block the space right behind it so warping isn't possible? Genius did it in a game this season (I think it was against anypro) and blick stalkers couldn't blink in, even if they had the vision of the base. The things is not to deny the vision (wich is hard to do since you don,t know what your opponent see), but to block the space your opponent can use with your army. So you block your ramp at the top (not at the bottom), rally your army right next to it to avoided being blunk/warped in, and it should do the trick. I would really want to see a replay of it failing.
This is indeed an interesting idea - use forcefield for blocking the ramp and not deny vision but deny warp-in-space.
The problem is though, the standard 4-gate has 1 zealot and 6 stalkers, ready to warp in 4 zealots. Even if you block the ramp, you will have 6 stalkers shooting at your stuff that tries to block the space for the warp in. If you get a sentry and NOT get 4 gates, then you simply won't have 6 stalkers, so you will simply lose the straight-up fight between the ranged units.
The core problem with going 3 gate robo is, that the immortal is actually bad vs zealots. This means, even if you delay the zealot-warp-in and get an immortal out, 4 more zealots will crush through this immortal. You can't really do much kiting with the immortal, it's too slow.
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wow I just tried it and it works so well it's annoying me.
Has anyone tried setting up a cannon at the ramp after double gas (not as a reaction)? (stalkers can't kill pylons fast enough it seems)
If so, is it enough to do anything?
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nvm i just tried it, pylons can be built outside of cannon range and still do the trick, ridiculous.
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i'm pretty sure you can stop it by FFing the top of the ramp....
had it happen to me several times in 2800+ master league pvp's and i did the 4 gate perfectly
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On January 17 2011 03:54 lasershark wrote:
i'm pretty sure you can stop it by FFing the top of the ramp....
had it happen to me several times in 2800+ master league pvp's and i did the 4 gate perfectly
I tried this, but doesn't FFing at the top of the ramp allow you to move your units partially onto the ramp and giving vision to everything above the ramp?
any screenshots to clarify?
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Why we Protoss gotta do this to each other, we all say we hate PvP but we're the ones making it so bad
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On January 19 2011 05:14 Barca wrote:
Why we Protoss gotta do this to each other, we all say we hate PvP but we're the ones making it so bad
Because winning is winning and right now 4 gate is the easiest way to win pvp especially on scrap where it has a wide ramp. I'm not saying you can't win with other builds, I'm just saying this is probably the easiest. I remember Tyler saying he does a defensive pvp build with robo. Sry for no links on this
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There's a lot of talk about how two forcefields are necessary, but I thought I would add this: When going against blink stalker, a perfectly placed forcefield can completely cut off vision from the top of the ramp, and at the same time not allowing stalkers the room necessary to move up to gain vision 0 it has to be perfect though. I do know that if you use a probe to poke around at the forcefield, you can gain vision, even on a perfectly placed forcefield, but stalkers are 100% unable to gain the vision by themselves. I don't know if a zealot can poke around to gain the vision also, but I know for an absolute face that stalkers cannot.
When I get home I'll do some testing.
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I think with a proper concave atop your ramp its never worth it to build even one sentry. Do an economic, defensive 4 gate, and drop a robo off one base. Its the only truly safe build. In theory since gas is the limiting factor on one base you could do 3 gates and a forge and expand fairly early, but im guessing good blink stalker play would do work vs this. Maybe you could construct your base in a way that the cannons protect most or all of your structures.
it would rely on checking for their expansion often with a probe to time your expansion as I dont see whats stopping them from just putting down a nexus when they see you have two well placed cannons.
tldr, sentries suck in this MU early game, dont get them ever early on if you want to win in PvP
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On January 16 2011 21:52 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Warp-in should be removed from game (or nerfor for example to warp-in only fo pylon that power up you gate) because it removes defenders advantage.
In TvT you can defend 3 rax with 2 rax easy simply because it takes 50sec to get on other side of map (attacking with ~6 less units), sometimes even 1 rax if you scout and play good (and opponent attacks early).
Same goes for TvZ or ZvZ, because defenders advantage exists there.
However in PvZ, PvT and PvP protoss always have advantage no matter whether they are attacking or defending, and this advantage completely overrides defenders advantage so you can beat perfect 4gate with only perfect 4game and you as defender wont even have advantage. Its such a stupid gamebreaking skill, it should have been kept for LoV campaign similar to Tech Reactors.
This is not the place for balance discussion, take it elsewhere. It only serves to derail the thread with posts arguing the strength of the Protoss arsenal and not how to use it in its current form. From the Strategy Forum Guidelines:
Also keep in mind:
- Nothing is imba. If you found something imba, it's most likely not. Find a counter.
- This is no place for balance discussion.
- B.net league placements aren't that relevant. Your Platinum spot doesn't mean anything.
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You can easily beat offensive 4 gate with warp-up-ramp pylons with a 3 gate and a delayed robo. Don't miss your forcefield timings, don't let too many units up (thus, allowing your opponent to warp in too many units with the extensive vision they get), and stop at ~5 sentries or once you feel they stopped reinforcing.
Abuse the fact that forcefield lasts longer than the time it takes to warp a sentry in.
When i do this, I come out even or a bit ahead even though I spent lots of gas on sentries. The key is to get the sentries at the last possible second and to judge their army well on what you see. If they transition to robo and you make two more sentries for no reason (you don't see more units or more pylons being made), then of course you will lose.
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FWIW, I ran into David Kim on ladder and asked if they were going to nerf 4 gate in PvP. He said, "We're not sure yet." I do think Protoss players everywhere would be happy if pylons could only warp in downhill rather than uphill. The uphill warp is mainly used for PvP and wouldn't hurt us much, if any, in the other MU's.
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United States2806 Posts
WhiteRa and naniwa both did robo openings vs each other so I assume players have figured out a way to win vs this.
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On January 22 2011 03:04 iamke55 wrote:
WhiteRa and naniwa both did robo openings vs each other so I assume players have figured out a way to win vs this.
Dang you beat me to it. Here's an interesting defence on a hard map to defeat a 4 gate on between Naniwa and WhiteRa: http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4655569/
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The 4 gate can be stopped by a 2 or 3 gate robo build despite this trick...
People somehow think that sentries are made obsolete by the warping on top of the ramp trick, this is totally untrue.
The trick to defend is just to have mostly stalkers, 2 sentries and perhaps 1 zealot. If you have mostly ranged units you can defend the warp in on top of the ramp by ffing the ramp and shooting at everything on top from a distance. If you ff well, cutting off 1 or 2 units, he will have 2 units + 4 warping in on top at most. By keeping your stalkers back he cant use his stalkers on the bottom and you only have to focus at killing his 6 max units on top. With 2 sentries and a couple stalkers that really isn't a problem at all..
Every time he tries to get up you can cut off 1 or 2 units and whittle him down that way till you have a huge defensive advantage.
If he tries to contain you'll have a lead in the colossus war and more gas available so you'll be at advantage as well.
2 gate robo is definately a viable answer to 4 gate. It just takes very good micro and doesn't neccesarily put you ahead alot (if the other expo's instead of pushes for example). That's why the 4 gate could have a very slight nerf but honestly it isn't really needed.
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On January 22 2011 03:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 03:04 iamke55 wrote:
WhiteRa and naniwa both did robo openings vs each other so I assume players have figured out a way to win vs this. Dang you beat me to it. Here's an interesting defence on a hard map to defeat a 4 gate on between Naniwa and WhiteRa: http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4655569/
Ow that daily is horrible by the way. Day 9 can talk for ages about these stupid simple games and then he completely misses the point as well.
In that daily he talks about naniwa vs ra at xel naga.
Naniwa goes blind 2 gate stargate, ra goes robo. Naniwa then wins with a phoenix stalker zealot attack vs ra's zealot stalker sentry. Day9 talks for ages about small things, like if he didn't make this forge here etc etc.. It was just a fucking build order loss, stargate units counter robo units hardcore in small battles (1.2 voidray demolishes colossi and phoenix are great vs immortals) and ra had too many sentries which aboslutely suck vs phoenix. Yet day9 doesn't mention this at all...
Seriously day 9 is the most overrated caster there is, he talks for ages about simple things like he is addressing 5 year olds and then even misses the most obvious stuff.
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On January 13 2011 08:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:51 Azide wrote:
what if you FF the middle of the ramp instead of the top or the bottom ? It's definitely possible to prevent this trick with 2 forcefields (1 at top of ramp, 1 at bottom), but it's impossible to have enough sentries to continuously maintain 2 forcefields. As for whether you can use 1 forcefield to both deny the warp in at the top and prevent units at the bottom from getting far enough up to get vision of the high ground, I don't think a forcefield is big enough to cover both spots, but it might be. Seems unlikely, but it's worth testing.
You can do it with just 1 at the top of the ramp, but it has to be perfect. Any units on the ramp underneath will not give vision.
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I have been able to hold this off recently, and people have beaten me with 3 gates when i went for the 4 gate 1 gas.
It is tricky and micro-intensive. The mistake i think is too make too many sentries and not cut probes a bit too put up your gates.
Make 2 sentries. Cut his army in half with a forcefield and with 3 gates you should be able to defeat him. It is also pretty easy to scout, so you can always add a 4th gate when u see a proxy pylon being built.
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On January 22 2011 02:38 kcdc wrote:
FWIW, I ran into David Kim on ladder and asked if they were going to nerf 4 gate in PvP. He said, "We're not sure yet." I do think Protoss players everywhere would be happy if pylons could only warp in downhill rather than uphill. The uphill warp is mainly used for PvP and wouldn't hurt us much, if any, in the other MU's.
A nerf is not needed. We just need some time to figure it all out.
Ow that daily is horrible by the way. Day 9 can talk for ages about these stupid simple games and then he completely misses the point as well.
He is a pretty fun guy, but his analysis is ment for low level players. U won't get better by watching his dailies.
Edit:spelling
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Force Field closer to the top of your ramp.
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I don't think a nerf is needed per se, but if you couldn't warp up a ramp, it would allow for a lot more creativity. Terran can bunker and defend a 4 gate while teching or expanding. Zerg can make spine crawlers and roaches and defend a 4 gate with an expansion. Protoss has to cut probes and mass T1 units to defend a 4 gate. Teching and expanding are out of the question. It'd be nice to have a little more flexibility.
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The entire statement that a 4 gate can only be defended by a 4 gate is so completely unfounded.
First of all the warpin can be stopped with a perfectly placed forcefield, so tech builds with good execution, like DT tech for example, can actually beat a 4 gate.
Also 2 or 3 gate robo builds can work just as well, not being able to stop the warpin doesn't mean you cant stop the push. Units being warped in are still more vulnerable and take 5 secs to materialize so the defender does have a definite advantage. You just need to use mostly ranged units to defend so you don't involve their stalkers sitting at the bottom of the ramp into the fight.
That said I do think 2 changes could be made for PvP:
- warping on top could indeed be removed though I would say it also affects other matchups (perhaps buff warp prism to 150m in return?)
- some maps need to be changed or removed fromt the map pool: blistering sands because it is retarded in every matchup, jungle basin because it is inherently unfair in PvZ and ZvT while also sucking in PvP, DQ because it just sucks and scrap station could use a smaller ramp. Stopping 4 gates on those maps is indeed impossible without a 4gate itself imo.
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problem is that zergs only need pool for spines, and terrans only need racks for bunkers...we need f****** forge for static defense
EDIT: plus bunkers can be salvage and spines can be replace. cannons not
this is why in pvp FE are not viable
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why not just get hallu and get a VR or Colo for vision?
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On January 22 2011 07:04 siri wrote:problem is that zergs only need pool for spines, and terrans only need racks for bunkers...we need f****** forge for static defense EDIT: plus bunkers can be salvage and spines can be replace. cannons not this is why in pvp FE are not viable
yeah, but do you know how stupidly easy it would be to cheese with P if you didn't need a forge for cannons?
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3Gate forge beats a 4 gate.
I have dont it several times
Basically your 3 zealots arrive before the 6 minute and you cannon their mineral line. They wont have enough stuff to stop both the cannons and the zealot pressure
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2 gate robo can always stop 4 gate. i skip an early zealot. get 2 stalkers and scout the shit out of your nat and surrounding area in an attempt to pop their probe. this greatly effects their warpgate timing. then after getting your two stalkers get your sentry and chrono out your immortal you should now be building. upon seeing there units ff the ramp and if they are building a pylon just shove your units to the side of ur base and shoot it down. then once you have immortal ur wg should be done so you just get 1 sentry and a stalker and ff again. if u want u can split there army a smidge hear. then if u need to get a second immortal and keep pumping gateway units. once u shut down there 4 gate just tech to collosus and gg. however i find 2 gate robo to be total fail on maps like jungle basin or delta quadrant or scrap. as they have 2 accesible ramps or just a huge ramp on scrap.
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I just used this tactic
its impossible for the defender to kill the pylon as some ppl suggest here blindly because its too far away so you have to go down the ramp. which you do not want to do against a 4gate. It really makes the 4gate harder to defend because you simply cannot deny the zealot warpins with 1 FF.
On January 22 2011 11:13 Tiamat wrote:
3Gate forge beats a 4 gate.
I have dont it several times
Basically your 3 zealots arrive before the 6 minute and you cannon their mineral line. They wont have enough stuff to stop both the cannons and the zealot pressure
since this is a pretty uncommon build I suggest to provide a replay.
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United States8476 Posts
There's a lot of bs in this thread. The one thing people have to learn is that there's about 20 different types of 4 gates. Yes, 2 gate robo and 3 gate robo can stop some 4 gates, but neither can stop the standard 4 gate. If you invest any money into a robo before the standard 4 gate comes, you will get crushed by a standard 4 gate. 3 gateways can hold off a 4 gate with perfect forcefields, but not if you make a robo for no reason.
3 gate forge will hold off a 4 gate, but you'll be behind as long as he doesn't sac his units into your cannons.
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On January 22 2011 12:25 4kmonk wrote:
There's a lot of bs in this thread. The one thing people have to learn is that there's about 20 different types of 4 gates. Yes, 2 gate robo and 3 gate robo can stop some 4 gates, but neither can stop the standard 4 gate. If you invest any money into a robo before the standard 4 gate comes, you will get crushed by a standard 4 gate. 3 gateways can hold off a 4 gate with perfect forcefields, but not if you make a robo for no reason.
3 gate forge will hold off a 4 gate, but you'll be behind as long as he doesn't sac his units into your cannons.
if you get the +1/+1 relatively early with this then your not so much behind. letz say you force him to retreat because you build 2 cannons. he then has too many gateways to support unit production + probes + an expansion. you in the other hand only get the upgrades, expand and produce from your 3 gates.
Ive done 3gate forge only a couple times so I dont have that much of a knowledge. but theoretically it really doesnt set you behind if you build only as many cannons so he has to retreat. the problem occurs rather if you build them blindly just because theres a 4gate timing. i can give you a 2gate forge expand rep if you want but I defended a delayed 3gate robo immortal with it so it doesnt fit so well in this thread.
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Im not a pro but a 1 gate robo into 3 gate can defend 4 gate. im diamond and have beat masters with that build. Im not saying that this works every time but neither does a 4 gate. This is not the only counter to 4gate but besides a 10 gate12gate zealot opening this is the only other build i have got to work against the 4gate. People can say what they want but there is more to pvp then just 4 gate vs 4 gate. Also 4gate vs 4gate is pretty fun and very intense. Good way to learn how to multi task and micro.
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This is so annoying to deal with, and is part of the reason 4gate is often only counterable by another 4gate.
Can you imagine if back in beta when the PvP korean warpgate strategy was running rampant, if instead of fixing it by just nerfing the warpgate research time, if they had instead taken the community's suggestion and made it so units warp in slower (aka take longer to warp in) the farther they are from one of your nexuses?
Not only would this help in dealing with the current version of the korean warpgate, but it would also help balance PvP in soooo many ways, including nerfing the stupid amount of power 4gating has.
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On January 22 2011 13:56 -orb- wrote:
This is so annoying to deal with, and is part of the reason 4gate is often only counterable by another 4gate.
Can you imagine if back in beta when the PvP korean warpgate strategy was running rampant, if instead of fixing it by just nerfing the warpgate research time, if they had instead taken the community's suggestion and made it so units warp in slower (aka take longer to warp in) the farther they are from one of your nexuses?
Not only would this help in dealing with the current version of the korean warpgate, but it would also help balance PvP in soooo many ways, including nerfing the stupid amount of power 4gating has.
The korean 4 gate is already extremely easy to stop. Just make a zealot while the core is building and chrono a couple stalkers. Kill the probe and pylons and at most they get in 1 round of zealots which arent too hard to deal with.
The suggestion of not being able to warp on top of ramps seems a much better fix, though i'm not even that sure a fix is needed.
Defensive 4 gate's already do a fine job vs the msot aggresive 4 gates (probe cutting, 1 gas etc.) and there are several builds that work fine vs a 4 gate with more probes and 2 gas.
If you want to play it safe now you can always do a 2 gas 4 gate vs someone with 1 gas and some other build lke 2 gate robo vs a 2 gas 4 gate.
The biggest problem in the game by far is maps really. They make some matchups imbalanced and PvP lame (DQ and jungle basin especially).
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Check into Responses 3g pvp, he gets zeal - sentry - sentry and does just fine. The key though is to put the FF at the bottom and the top. to prevent warp in, however its more important to cut the army. There is no sense in FF if your not going to kill anything, and your opponent is going to outnumber you 10 seconds later. Only let up the ramp what you can handle,
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On January 22 2011 14:33 DanceSC wrote:
Check into Responses 3g pvp, he gets zeal - sentry - sentry and does just fine. The key though is to put the FF at the bottom and the top. to prevent warp in, however its more important to cut the army. There is no sense in FF if your not going to kill anything, and your opponent is going to outnumber you 10 seconds later. Only let up the ramp what you can handle,
I had a really hard time learning this, but it definitely works if you execute properly. I recommend practicing it a bunch before attempting it in a real match. In the mean time just 4 gate in response and you will be at least on even footing and probably ahead if you make good choices with splitting his forces.
One point of clarification. Be VERY careful about letting any units up your ramp, make absolutely to just let a few up at a time. As soon as they have vision on the high ground if he has a pylon in range, there is potentially 4 more units warping into your base. So now you have to deal with those without losing any sentries, continue to warp in units, and throw down perfect force fields at the bottom and top of your ramp. One small slip up and you have his whole army breathing down your neck. Remember also that if he has hallucinate he'll have the vision he'll need as well.
One thing that is a huge help is to make sure he doesn't have any pylons in range. The key is to put stalkers at the edge of your base on 'hold' to pick off pylons (and any other units that he's got too close) while you are double force fielding the ramp.
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United States8476 Posts
Again, gate robo gate gate gate does not hold off the standard 4 gate.
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On January 22 2011 16:01 4kmonk wrote:
Again, gate robo gate gate gate does not hold off the standard 4 gate.
Why 4 gats and a robo... Also a 3 gate CAN hold off a standard 4 gate.
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My best success rate beating a 4 gate comes from applying early pressure and killing probes before they get all their gates up. Then I expand pretty fast and throw up more gates and a forge to be ready to defend. This strategy makes you strong early, then a little vulnerable while you try to defend your expo, but if you hold it off you are in great shape.
This is one of those threads where it's hard for me to separate the good advice from the bad advice but I see a few names I trust anyway.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 22 2011 16:12 MuffinFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 16:01 4kmonk wrote:
Again, gate robo gate gate gate does not hold off the standard 4 gate. Why 4 gats and a robo... Also a 3 gate CAN hold off a standard 4 gate.
Sorry, was replying to someone about 3 posts above me.
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No build is full-proof. Please stop trying to find the magic bullet with these threads.
In my experience, the best thing we can do in PvP is to NEVER EVER EVER let your 9 pylon scout probe die until after your opponents first stalker is out. And then escape with that probe intact. If you can micro your probe constantly while dropping your opening buildings, success will come.
Also, match your opponent's initial gateway production and then kill that damn probe before it gets to drop it's pylon.
It's a shame that PvP seems like a micro nightmare because of the 4 gate, but just think about how much this practice/expertise could improve our PvT and PvZ...i hope >
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On January 22 2011 11:07 Pobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 07:04 siri wrote:problem is that zergs only need pool for spines, and terrans only need racks for bunkers...we need f****** forge for static defense EDIT: plus bunkers can be salvage and spines can be replace. cannons not this is why in pvp FE are not viable yeah, but do you know how stupidly easy it would be to cheese with P if you didn't need a forge for cannons?
it would be very op
but still the reason why pvp there is no fe is because if we really on cannons, the most efficient defense, we have to wait 45 to build a forge and 40 for the cannons. while for example if a zerg see a rush coming he can just put down a couple of spines
and in every mirror matchup there wouldnt be FE without static defense, especially pvp since warp in practically eliminates the defensor advantage
thats the problem on pvp, not if the 4gate is to strong or not
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edited: did NOT see all the pages to this thread. sorry, was on my phone.
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In my opinion the half way up the ramp should not provide vision yet, would this change actually hurt balance in some MU ? I don't think so although i am not sure. Still gonna test if there indeed is a perfect FF placement, as far as i know zealots are able to get vision when they walk into the nooks of the FF
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Tiamat, I watched one of the games... And I don't understand what it has to do with the OP. At all.
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op wrote:
IMO, when the only way to defend a 4 gate is to 4 gate.
I was just providing a solution to his problem.
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On January 23 2011 12:41 Tiamat wrote:I was just providing a solution to his problem.
Please, at least quote the post you are replaying to and put the replays & discussion in a "Spoiler" tag. Your discussion is very far afield, offtopic, generally only deserving of inclusion in a different thread focused on the builds that require adjustment to the 4warpgate.
In the replays, your opponents showed poor scouting and poor adjustment to what you were doing. Clearly, if somebody considers themselves born to 4warpgate attack at 5:40 and never adjust to the odd build out there, they'll stay in lower leagues where people like you beat them. If my opponent is chronoing his gateways, I need to chrono mine. If he jumps to 3gates fast, and makes clear signs he's proxied more (Hello, no gas!) I need to drop my remaining 3 gateways earlier than I might otherwise like. In perhaps another perspective, you could say cannon rush defeats 4warpgate, simply assuming it's also, like your replays, unscouted and barely reacted to! As a final aside, you're not "scouting" a 4warpgate and adjusting, you're opening up with a build blind to your opponent's build knowing he must change what he's doing (if he's good) to properly repel it and gain an advantage.
Yes there are maps with close rush distances (Steppes, close-ground LT and Meta to name a few) where a 2gating player in the style of Adelscott will force different actions from you with his 3 zealots or so. On far distances, and in favorable maps (Delta Quadrant, Jungle Basin, Scrap Station), I'm still climbing to 4 warpgates and climaxing in warp-in up the ramp.
As to the original topic: I really liked Response's chrono'd sentry defense, 3 gates before tech with adequate sentry+stalker to kill from range. Link here, courtesy of Response and Khaladas. Maps like Xel'Naga are perfect for this because no backdoor warpins.
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I've been using a modified 3-gate robo to defend this as of late. It only works on maps w/ a normal sized ramp and no way to warp-in through another area (i.e. don't try this on Scrap Station or DQ).
• 9 Pylon
• 13 Gate (chrono Probes)
• 14 Gas
• 16 Pylon
• 17 Core
• 19 Gate
• 20 Stalker (chrono Warpgate)
• 23 Pylon (chrono Warpgate)
• 24 Stalker
• 27 Stalker (chrono)
• 29 Gate
• 30 Gas
• 31 Pylon (chrono Warpgate)
• 32 Sentry + Stalker
• 36 Pylon
Your 2nd and 3rd stalkers pop out ~30 seconds before a standard 4-gate finishes their warpgate tech (FYI don't use this build if you scout a K4G either) so push out right away and delay their proxy pylons. If you can kill the probe you essentially just stopped the 4-gate, but any damage or stalling you can do at this point is good. It should be no problem since it'll likely be your 3 stalkers vs zealot + stalker.
If you get pushed back (i.e. he spends a round of warps away from your base and pushes back, just keep chrono'ing your 3 warpgates and pumping out stalkers with maybe 1 extra sentry if needed. You should be able to hold from this point with proper micro and forming an arc w/ your sentries around the top of ramp. Once he falls back throw down your robo and proceed as normal.
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*sigh* well I guess that's why I always lose to 4 gates, I get a lot of sentries to try to stop it. It really sucks how guys that only know how to 4 gate get into masters and I'm stuck in diamond, getting owned by them. Well then, Always 4gate in PvP, got it.
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On March 21 2011 06:00 DoctorPhil wrote:
*sigh* well I guess that's why I always lose to 4 gates, I get a lot of sentries to try to stop it. It really sucks how guys that only know how to 4 gate get into masters and I'm stuck in diamond, getting owned by them. Well then, Always 4gate in PvP, got it.
Now you need to learn the different variations of them too
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On March 21 2011 06:00 DoctorPhil wrote:
*sigh* well I guess that's why I always lose to 4 gates, I get a lot of sentries to try to stop it. It really sucks how guys that only know how to 4 gate get into masters and I'm stuck in diamond, getting owned by them. Well then, Always 4gate in PvP, got it.
Fast immortal + Show Spoiler +I use this, always win against 4 gate, you just need to have good scouting after beating it because he will have sentries, so you gotta most likely get 1-2 observers for dts, and a stargate to counter his most likely one while ONLY pumping out zealots
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i can't wait to test this strategy hard tonight! thanks man! x
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I'm using kcdc's gate-robo-gate at the moment. You won't hold well executed 4gates with zealot warp-in, but if he is some seconds to late or reinforces with more stalkers, your still in the game and should be ahead in probes and gas.
I try to rush 2 ranged colossi then, chronoboost thermal lances first and put every single gas you don't need for 2 colossi in stalker and zeals of course.
I don't like PvP much, so I'm content with this strategy to give me a decent win ratio.
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One thing that has gone lacking in this thread appears to be the suggestion that warping in on ramps is removed?
This would completely fix PvP. All players would need to do is FF the lower part of their ramp and BOOM 4gate is shutdown directly. Alternatively, increase the distance you need to go up a ramp to gain vision of the high ground by 1 square. The FF at the top of the ramp now stops a 4gate from gaining vision.
Thoughts?
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Hey guys, I'm just a zerg player, and this is something that i was just curious about. But when a protoss defends against a six pool, he makes the two buildings so that only a zealot/zergling/marine can go through at the ramp. If you combine this building placement with a forcefield just touching the two buildings on the ramp, wouldn't this deny basically warp in space that your opponent can potential have.
I'm on my mac, I will try to show what I mean tomorrow with screen shots, but this is just in theory, and I'm not sure if this can even work as there may be warp in locations to the sides of the buildings, not to mention being unable to walk your stalkers out later on.
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As to the original topic: I really liked Response's chrono'd sentry defense, 3 gates before tech with adequate sentry+stalker to kill from range. Link here, courtesy of Response and Khaladas. Maps like Xel'Naga are perfect for this because no backdoor warpins.
One thing that helped my thinking in this is to remember not everyone 4 gates, so if you have a 3 gate robo opening in mind you shouldn't be thinking "OMG if he 4gates i'll auto lose". You should be thinking if this guy does ANYTHING except 4 gate me i'll win because i'll have detection, and my colossi will be out before him ( or at worst at the same time as him ).
Also you can pretty much see the tell tale signs of a 4 gate, and if you use your early units wisely you can more often than not delay that 4 gate just enough. I feel like a 30 second delay is more than enough to get an immortal out and have your 3 warpgates done and a huge economy lead. At that point you should have a huge advantage, especially from the high ground. If you pump out one early sentry it will have enough energy for 2 FF, which can buy you a lot of seconds.
Worst case if you fail to delay him, then you do your best to stop him from warping in pylons at your ramp as your fall back plan.
Even with all this you might still lose to a perfect 4 gate, you just gg and move on.
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I think what makes 4 gate so frustrating at the higher levels is just how hard it is to get map control in the matchup in general. Its strategy poker because there's no reliable scouting in the matchup. You can only get as much information as you need to determine if they get a second gas (maybe).
+ Show Spoiler +Watching HuK at TSL makes me cringe. You can just sense his lack of understanding of the matchup when you compare his PvP to say.. the PvP of MC (whom Ive seen HuK beat on ladder countless times, but its just ladder so who cares). He looked lost at TSL and even the game he won he made some mistakes and it boils down to not being able to move around the map.
HuK has excellent control, but when its army clash vs. army clash in a 4 gate setting the control can sometimes go by the wayside and you have a harder time creating an edge than in small skirmishes. He seems best when its constant pressure all over the place and hes either dictating it or responding to it, but thats just not viable in this matchup or you could get caught with your pants down.
+ Show Spoiler +Oh and regarding the scouting conundrum and strategy poker just look at Game 1 from TSL where Hasu held off the 4 gate with his own gate and then transitions. If HuK did any other build he gets a huge advantage and probably wins, particularly robo.
Game 2 HuK blind counters blink with robo as Hasu stupidly reveals blink a little bit early.
Face it, Protoss is the hardest race to scout against. Its true for zergs and terrans trying to scout protoss as well. The only thing making it even viable to compete with out sheer number of similar looking openings is the fact that if we don't get certain units at a certain point in time we flat out die. If protoss was unrestricted by those needs, we would be unstoppable.
Defensive 4 gate is where its at, but its just as risky as the 3 gate defense in terms of where it puts you on the tech path. The reason higher tier players don't like PvP is because the best player doesn't always win. That can be said for any matchup but its so much more finicky in PvP.
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@ Jayrod - protoss is actually the easiest to scout early game considering out worker killing unit comes out much later than zerg/terran.
Defensive 4-gate doesn't solve the 4-gate problem, it exacerbates it. When I first read Tiamit's post I thought, great idea! 3-gate forge to stop it! Then I watched his replays and realized that he had no idea what he was talking about, but the idea was still there.
Ive been playing around with it and 1 defensive cannon really does help against those high ground warped zealots, especially if placed perfectly to protect the top of your ramp but still be out of range of low ground stalkers. Going fairly heavy sentry, with 1-2 cannons and stalkers can hold a 4-gate (at least at plat/diamond) And I'm sure the pro's could refine a build like this to possibly work at the pro level. Its at least worth trying right? Can transition to phx or expand or blink and upgrades pretty well.
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The problem is, Forge + cannons is 300 minerals plus, and none of the cannons are likely to be useful later. It is actually far more useful to get another Gateway (for only 150 minerals), and be able to use it later on. Which brings you back to 4gate vs 4gate.
Oh, and from another thread I posted in:
I have thought about this for a long time, and I believe I have the rough workings for a solution.
Basically, there are two reasons why you can't nerf forcefields:
1) Protoss will just DIE to early pressure
2) Gateway tech won't be viable in midgame (eg 6gate, so Muta/ling will have more dominance)
There are two reasons why you can't buff the other Gateway units to compensate:
1) 4gates without Sentries are already good, buffing Gateway units will just exaggerate that
2) Gateway units alone are intended to die to some builds (eg Burrowed Roaches), which they wouldn't otherwise die to.
The solution to this isn't particularly wacky or weird, but will change games a lot.
1) Nerf the FF range/duration
2) Buff Gateway units (increase Stalker damage to Armoured, increase Zealot attack speed etc)
3) Increase the cost of Warp Gates to 100/100 or 50/100 and multiply the time taken for it to complete by 1.2 or 1.3
EDIT: I'd also like to add some input about the 4gate vs T or Z. At the moment, the problem with the 4gate is NOT the units themselves. Zealot/Stalker are relatively weak, and Sentries are only used for FF and GS. Instead, it is the mechanic of Warp Gates that gives the trouble. It comes pretty fast, and basically gives Protoss a 'free' cycle of units (time-wise) when Warp Gates finishes, and completely nullifies the reinforcement time. This would be solved using the increase to Warp Gate timing and cost, but I'd like to keep Warp Gates themselves as I think they kick ass.
Not wildly gamechanging, but will require adjusting to. Gateway units need to be able to compete with other low tech units to be viable as defense without Sentries being a 'crutch' unit (like the Colossus, but that is a whole other can of worms). Forcefields and Sentries will have to be weaker to compensate for this, as at the moment they do seem slightly exploitable. Lastly, 4gate is already too fast in PvP and the timing of it makes it extremely difficult to deal with, to the point where it is standard. Increasing the time and gas cost of it makes Korean 4gate less viable (but not impossible), and also would allow decent tech units to come out before the standard 4gate is done, so that using Immortals or Void Rays for early defense is more viable. As a side effect, the 2gate will get slightly more powerful, but that is never really a problem in higher leagues anyway (which I assume Blizzard is balancing around, E-SPORTS etc).
If there are enough responses to this, I might make a new thread about it, but at the moment I don't feel it deserves one.
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Just for reference, you can check out DuckloadRa's recent GSL game against oGsMC.... I realize MC didn't go for the 4-gate in the traditional sense, but DuckloadRa was planning/counting on oGsMC doing a 4-gate based on what he scouted.
Seems like a build to consider.... especially with warp prism harass/micro on close air maps. This is obviously pretty situational, but it's still a pretty cool idea.
Check out set 2: http://www.gomtv.net/2011championship/vod/63894
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On March 31 2011 02:32 TheGODehT wrote:Just for reference, you can check out DuckloadRa's recent GSL game against oGsMC.... I realize MC didn't go for the 4-gate in the traditional sense, but DuckloadRa was planning/counting on oGsMC doing a 4-gate based on what he scouted. Seems like a build to consider.... especially with warp prism harass/micro on close air maps. This is obviously pretty situational, but it's still a pretty cool idea. Check out set 2: http://www.gomtv.net/2011championship/vod/63894
Re-watch that game. If MC has been 4-gating, it would have hit when White-ra has 2 stalkers, 1 sentry, and an observer. Each lost a zealot so MC would have pushed with 6 stalkers and decimated him with his first round of high ground warp in zealots. That game has no bearing on this discussion.
Back to the forge/cannon comments, A forge is hardly a worthless building, and while the cannon loses its value after the rush is held, its still a build worth consideration because a defensive 4-gate doesnt always hold an aggressive one at equal skill. A cannon can tilt the odds into the defending players field making it a reasonable option.
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On March 31 2011 11:58 Mojeca wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 02:32 TheGODehT wrote:Just for reference, you can check out DuckloadRa's recent GSL game against oGsMC.... I realize MC didn't go for the 4-gate in the traditional sense, but DuckloadRa was planning/counting on oGsMC doing a 4-gate based on what he scouted. Seems like a build to consider.... especially with warp prism harass/micro on close air maps. This is obviously pretty situational, but it's still a pretty cool idea. Check out set 2: http://www.gomtv.net/2011championship/vod/63894 Re-watch that game. If MC has been 4-gating, it would have hit when White-ra has 2 stalkers, 1 sentry, and an observer. Each lost a zealot so MC would have pushed with 6 stalkers and decimated him with his first round of high ground warp in zealots. That game has no bearing on this discussion. Back to the forge/cannon comments, A forge is hardly a worthless building, and while the cannon loses its value after the rush is held, its still a build worth consideration because a defensive 4-gate doesnt always hold an aggressive one at equal skill. A cannon can tilt the odds into the defending players field making it a reasonable option.
Yeah, White-ra made a brave in-game psychic decision there. I was actually very surprised when he got obs. He just had a total read on MC I think.
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Sry if that was already discussed. Looked through, but didn't read all posts in details.
Imho Blizzard should patch such that
Pylon should not power higher ground even with vision.
That would mainly affect:
* 4 Gate rush
* Cannon rush
* Pylon powered drops, but would encourage more warp prism play.
* * 2vs2 Zerg + Protoss 5 gate zealot rush
Would not affect much general gameplay imho.
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On March 31 2011 15:34 StupidIdea wrote:
Sry if that was already discussed. Looked through, but didn't read all posts in details.
Imho Blizzard should patch such that
Pylon should not power higher ground even with vision.
That would mainly affect:
* 4 Gate rush
* Cannon rush
* Pylon powered drops, but would encourage more warp prism play.
* * 2vs2 Zerg + Protoss 5 gate zealot rush
Would not affect much general gameplay imho.
Smurf... Did you play Brood War? Maybe not the ramps but I think it definitely should be allowed to power high/low ground :/
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On March 31 2011 15:34 StupidIdea wrote:
Sry if that was already discussed. Looked through, but didn't read all posts in details.
Imho Blizzard should patch such that
Pylon should not power higher ground even with vision.
That would mainly affect:
* 4 Gate rush
* Cannon rush
* Pylon powered drops, but would encourage more warp prism play.
* * 2vs2 Zerg + Protoss 5 gate zealot rush
Would not affect much general gameplay imho.
Agreed.
Also add in
*Hallucinated Phoenix DT warpin(gg for T if you don't have Ravens)
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Having warp fields not work uphill would solve the 4-gate warp-in problem, but it seems like it would have an excessive impact on other aspects of the game. Proxy gates, cannon rushes and pylon drops are annoying and cheesy, but they're part of the game, and I think making them impossible would diminish the richness of the game.
A solution that has occurred to me is to have force fields block vision. The issue there is that it would make FFing vastly more effective in situations where you can get your enemy's army entirely behind FFs (like stalker/sentry against roach/hydra).
Another possibility that I think would have a pretty minimal effect otherwise would be to make warp fields block enemy warp-ins. Then you could defend your ramp by means of placing a pylon at the top of it. This would also make drops a bit less potent, but since you generally drop somewhere the opponent does not have vision, I don't think it would make as big an impact on gameplay beyond the 4-gate defense.
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On March 31 2011 15:55 eery1 wrote:
Smurf... Did you play Brood War? Maybe not the ramps but I think it definitely should be allowed to power high/low ground :/
Sry, don't see how BW is related to this, since it had not warp in mechanics.
Pylon of course would still power lower ground.
Somehow I don't see this change as game breaking nerf. Ant pylon behaviour would still be somewhat consistent (compared to the OP idea to prohibit warp in behind FF on the ramp).
Do you ever power buildings on higher ground (besides cannons) ?
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All that would be needed is a fix of the combination forcefield <-> ramp. It shouldn't be possible to warp "above" forcefields that are placed in the middle. Same with stalkers blinking out of fungle, this doesn't even make sense in the first place. Forcefields are supposed to protect your ramp, the ability of warping in units above it makes zero sense.
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On March 31 2011 16:11 StupidIdea wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 15:55 eery1 wrote:
Smurf... Did you play Brood War? Maybe not the ramps but I think it definitely should be allowed to power high/low ground :/ Sry, don't see how BW is related to this, since it had not warp in mechanics. Pylon of course would still power lower ground. Somehow I don't see this change as game breaking nerf. Ant pylon behaviour would still be somewhat consistent (compared to the OP idea to prohibit warp in behind FF on the ramp). Do you ever power buildings on higher ground (besides cannons) ?
Because of how most of the maps are designed at the moment, not many give you the opportunity to build onto higher ground but if people do decide to start making maps like medusa for example where your natural is on high ground it could be useful to put buildings on higher ground one day. Taking out aspects of the game, especially ones that have yet to be explored, limits opportunities for its growth. Quit changing the rules, just play the game differently. Think of the ability to warp onto different terrains as something like a drop. Also, I enjoy vision plays using hallucinations etc and the warp-in ability will become much more bland without it. Just spread out your supply depots like a protoss spreads his pylons to watch for drops. Again, you don't have to make such drastic changes to something that has hardly been in existence... At the most dont allow warpin in onto ramps but not allowing warping in onto different terrains is taking it too far. The more conservative the changes, the better.
*SUMMARY: I think warping onto ramps might need to be changed but NOT warping up onto higher ground*
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On March 31 2011 16:27 sleepingdog wrote:
All that would be needed is a fix of the combination forcefield <-> ramp. It shouldn't be possible to warp "above" forcefields that are placed in the middle. Same with stalkers blinking out of fungle, this doesn't even make sense in the first place. Forcefields are supposed to protect your ramp, the ability of warping in units above it makes zero sense.
Same for Terran wall-in, no?
Blink is different topic.
I understand how it looks like a good thing to make smallest changes possible, but I think pylon energy blocking with FF adds many questions of inconsistency. Would it be like shadow thrown of no energy? Would it cancel started to warp in units? Would it work on same level? Would it cancel power to buildings (for ex you power you cannon in base from lower ground, then opponent) FF ramp and your cannon stop working)? I know we can come up with the answers, but would it be consistent behavior?
I know this topic is mostly about 4gate, but there are other strategies. 2vs2 Zerg+Protoss 5 gate is basically OP.
And we are not making changes, we are just discussing. Kind of "what if..."
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Definitely don't change warping in on high ground. It would make the game less dynamic and isn't needed to solve this.
I think FF denying vision could pose problems unless it blocked vision for the protoss player as well. Just not being able to warp in on ramps would solve this whole issue.
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All that would have to be done imo is to disallow warp-ins on ramps. Disallowing warp-ins/buildings on high/low ground relative to the pylon would go too far and remove far too many tactics for the Protoss, but leaving it as it is is making the match-up pretty boring. By disallowing warp ins on the ramp a force field at the bottom of the ramp would become a 'money' force field, as you can only warp-in on the ramp over that FF, which would now be impossible.
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fast immortal builds can beat 4gates, even with this warping trick. as long as you have a decent mix of zealot/stalker and can split the stalker coming up the ramp in half
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On March 31 2011 16:02 mGMUSE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 15:34 StupidIdea wrote:
Sry if that was already discussed. Looked through, but didn't read all posts in details.
Imho Blizzard should patch such that
Pylon should not power higher ground even with vision.
That would mainly affect:
* 4 Gate rush
* Cannon rush
* Pylon powered drops, but would encourage more warp prism play.
* * 2vs2 Zerg + Protoss 5 gate zealot rush
Would not affect much general gameplay imho.
Agreed. Also add in *Hallucinated Phoenix DT warpin(gg for T if you don't have Ravens)
now you're just being stupid. hallucinated DT is a cool little trick.
And yeah, instant gg for T if you don't have detection vs an invisible unit? OMG NO WAY NERF BLIZZ GG KTHX
Man, Protoss denying your scouting? Must suck not to have an instant cast ability that reveals any area on the map. Oh wait...
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On March 31 2011 15:34 StupidIdea wrote:
Sry if that was already discussed. Looked through, but didn't read all posts in details.
Imho Blizzard should patch such that
Pylon should not power higher ground even with vision.
That would mainly affect:
* 4 Gate rush
* Cannon rush
* Pylon powered drops, but would encourage more warp prism play.
* * 2vs2 Zerg + Protoss 5 gate zealot rush
Would not affect much general gameplay imho.
One more idea came to mind.
Maybe pylon ability to power higher ground could be and upgrade on Nexus or somewhere else. So it would be disabled for an early game only.
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On March 31 2011 15:34 StupidIdea wrote:
Sry if that was already discussed. Looked through, but didn't read all posts in details.
Imho Blizzard should patch such that
Pylon should not power higher ground even with vision.
That would mainly affect:
* 4 Gate rush
* Cannon rush
* Pylon powered drops, but would encourage more warp prism play.
* * 2vs2 Zerg + Protoss 5 gate zealot rush
Would not affect much general gameplay imho.
I would love this change. It would hurt cheese in PvP (which everyone thinks is too cheesy) and it would have almost no impact on the other MU's. All you'd lose is sneaky warp-ins into the main with hallucination or observers, but in those cases, you can get a warp prism almost as quickly.
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4gate would be just as strong except that sentries would be able to hold it where now they can't.
I assume you would need to make pylons also not power low ground either, or else there wouldn't be any sort of elegance or consistency to the change, and Blizzard is not known for making ham-fisted balance changes solely for gameplay without considering whether its an elegant change or a blunt approach.
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Ok, I've read a couple of pages now and I cant believe that no has mentioned this: just alter the vision on ramps so you can't warp over the FF. Simple solution, won't affect anything else e.g. cannon rush.
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On April 01 2011 00:02 Karn3 wrote:
Ok, I've read a couple of pages now and I cant believe that no has mentioned this: just alter the vision on ramps so you can't warp over the FF. Simple solution, won't affect anything else e.g. cannon rush.
Not sure, what exactly are you proposing. Do you mean, that ramp should not be visible from lower ground? In that case units on the ramp would be "invisible" to attacker, and in case units cover all ramp, there is no way for attacker to see them without flying unit. Bad imho.
If you propose, to make such, that high ground is not visible from ramp, again same problems as above.
Current vision mechanics is quite elegant - ramp visible from lower ground, high ground visible from ramp. I see no better way.
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Wait a second. But nicely placed forcefields (at the lower end of the ramp) would make this not work. It's only if you can even get a unit ON the ramp that you get vision.
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The thing that does counter a 4gate, is early stalkers. The early 2-3 stalkers outnumber your early game 1 zealot 1 stalker (1 more stalker in production) and denies proxy pylons. When the other player stays in their base and does some build that tries to stop a 4gate, usually it doesnt (other than dts). The only time I feel good when I 4gate is when I get my first warp in down. The 2nd warp in on the ramp I am usually pretty confident unless he 4gated too, and then its just a micro battle
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On April 30 2011 13:02 ScythedBlade wrote:
Wait a second. But nicely placed forcefields (at the lower end of the ramp) would make this not work. It's only if you can even get a unit ON the ramp that you get vision.
Incorrect. Or incomplete, rather. There are really 3 levels wherever a ramp is included. From the low ground you have vision of the low ground and the ramp, but not the high ground. If you're on the ramp you can see the high ground as well. Hence, if you forcefield the lower end of the ramp, you can sneak a warp-in past the forcefield (on the ramp), and that unit gives you vision of the high ground. If you forcefield the higher end of the ramp, a unit can walk up on the lower end of the ramp, which also gives you vision of the high ground and allows you to warp-in. You need double forcefields to stop this, and to maintain that you need 8 sentries. Not possible.
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This is really academic now. Unless blizzard doesn't go through with the pylon radius change on PTR, it will be basically impossible to get a proxy close enough to your opponent's ramp to do this.
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EPT
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