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By placing a pylon at the bottom of your opponent's ramp slightly skewed off to the side, it's possible to warp in units over a forcefield and into your opponent's main without vision. Your units on the low ground have vision on the ramp, so you warp in a unit as far up as you can, immediately gaining a small area of vision in the main which you use to warp in the rest of your units. If your opponent has invested in sentries to defend your 4 gate, your 4 warped in zealots along with your stalkers firing from the low ground is usually enough to push him back from the ramp. Your stalkers then flood in and it's gg.
Because of this trick, almost anything with 2 gas and relies on sentries for defense loses to a hard 4 gate. The only thing that really handles a hard 4 gate well is a 4 gate without as much probe cutting. Of course, you can't scout a 4 gate until it's too late to adapt.
When I 4 gate, I'm happy to see sentries because it means I get to set up my pylon right outside his base uncontested and the army up the ramp will be weak when I get up there.
IMO, when the only way to defend a 4 gate is to 4 gate, the build is limiting the match-up too much and needs to be nerfed to improve strategic diversity. Should this trick for warping units over a forcefield up a ramp without vision should be eliminated?
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I wondered why I was losing to 4 warp-gates....god I hate PvP so much right now due to this.
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I'll love you so much if I learn to do this <3
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Man that sucks. I'll be on tonight testing this I think. I assume a more traditional 3gate with stalkers (heading down the blinkstalker route) would be able to hold this as they'd snipe the pylon, but will test this this evening.
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If you go quick immortal the range of the immortal should be able to always reach the warping in pylon. I would just not let the pylon finish.
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can you post a replay please? i think i know what you mean but am not entirely sure. i played a game last night where someone warped zealots in my base even though i ff'd the bottom of the ramp before he got a chance to run any units up. he probably did this T_T
unfortunetly i played a ton of games last night and it would take forever to find that one game
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An immortal does not arrive in time to prevent a 4gate attack.
See the latest GSL match between choyaFou and Tester on scrap station.
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what if you FF the middle of the ramp instead of the top or the bottom ?
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its not 4 gate that needs to be nerfed... the ramp issue is just broken imo
2 gas builds can still hold off a hard 4 gate, but ive only been able to do it by 10 gating and getting faster wg than my opponent. you can hold off the ramp warp ins but you need to be VERY flawless in your micro or you lose
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On January 13 2011 08:51 MarshalClaw wrote:
An immortal does not arrive in time to prevent a 4gate attack.
See the latest GSL match between choyaFou and Tester on scrap station.
Link please? I have a really hard time finding a watching GSL matches. Are you sure a 1 gate robo can't get one out in time? Chrono immortals come out pretty quickly.
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It's the same trick as when you use blink stalkers and blink one onto the ramp for vision then the rest into their base. This is worse though because any sort of tech build will 100% not have enough units to hold a 4 gate if their units get into your base and this makes it like 100x harder to prevent that. Basically all you can do is at least 3 gate before tech if they're 4 gating and have enough units to either stop a pylon from going up or do significant damage to their units during the warp in time, enough that you will be able to stay close enough to your ramp to FF again as well as kill all of their warped in units before their gates are off cooldown.
This is SUPER FUCKING ANNOYING
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On January 13 2011 08:51 Azide wrote:
what if you FF the middle of the ramp instead of the top or the bottom ?
It's definitely possible to prevent this trick with 2 forcefields (1 at top of ramp, 1 at bottom), but it's impossible to have enough sentries to continuously maintain 2 forcefields. As for whether you can use 1 forcefield to both deny the warp in at the top and prevent units at the bottom from getting far enough up to get vision of the high ground, I don't think a forcefield is big enough to cover both spots, but it might be. Seems unlikely, but it's worth testing.
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Does it work against any force field placement ? People usually force field at the very bottom of their ramp, perhaps 1-2 boxes up can do the trick ? I'll try to test it.
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On January 13 2011 08:51 MarshalClaw wrote:
An immortal does not arrive in time to prevent a 4gate attack.
See the latest GSL match between choyaFou and Tester on scrap station.
It can, Testers build order was messed up because he got confused, if you robo early (when warpgate is 20% done) then you will have an immortal out. 4 sentrys is enough to stop a 4gate because you can ff the ramp, and they still wont have vision to warp in into your base.
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On January 13 2011 08:56 Shifft wrote:
It's the same trick as when you use blink stalkers and blink one onto the ramp for vision then the rest into their base. This is worse though because any sort of tech build will 100% not have enough units to hold a 4 gate if their units get into your base and this makes it like 100x harder to prevent that. Basically all you can do is at least 3 gate before tech if they're 4 gating and have enough units to either stop a pylon from going up or do significant damage to their units during the warp in time, enough that you will be able to stay close enough to your ramp to FF again as well as kill all of their warped in units before their gates are off cooldown.
This is SUPER FUCKING ANNOYING
3 gates before tech doesn't cut it. I've been killing 3 gate robo builds with regularity. If they're mining both gas, they're relying on sentries to hold the ramp, and if they've built sentries, they won't be able to kill my warped in zealots quickly enough.
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On January 13 2011 08:58 Juxx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:51 MarshalClaw wrote:
An immortal does not arrive in time to prevent a 4gate attack.
See the latest GSL match between choyaFou and Tester on scrap station. It can, Testers build order was messed up because he got confused, if you robo early (when warpgate is 20% done) then you will have an immortal out. 4 sentrys is enough to stop a 4gate because you can ff the ramp, and they still wont have vision to warp in into your base.
How do you expect to have 4 sentries out by the time a 4gate hits? If you opened Sentry, you lose it to the first Stalker + Zealot. If you don't, you're going to have 1 Sentry before your warpgate finishes and their warpgate is nearly guaranteed to be quicker. If you do 1gate robo, you will have a maximum of 2 Sentries, if that.
By the way I just tested, there's 3 positions to FF your ramp. With the bottom one, you warp above, then inside main. With mid, same thing. With the top one you can just walk a unit to the FF and warp inside, it's the worst FF of them all.
On January 13 2011 09:02 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:56 Shifft wrote:
It's the same trick as when you use blink stalkers and blink one onto the ramp for vision then the rest into their base. This is worse though because any sort of tech build will 100% not have enough units to hold a 4 gate if their units get into your base and this makes it like 100x harder to prevent that. Basically all you can do is at least 3 gate before tech if they're 4 gating and have enough units to either stop a pylon from going up or do significant damage to their units during the warp in time, enough that you will be able to stay close enough to your ramp to FF again as well as kill all of their warped in units before their gates are off cooldown.
This is SUPER FUCKING ANNOYING 3 gates before tech doesn't cut it. I've been killing 3 gate robo builds with regularity. If they're mining both gas, they're relying on sentries to hold the ramp, and if they've built sentries, they won't be able to kill my warped in zealots quickly enough. Yep, 3 gates dont have nearly enough units unless they chrono warpgate just as much and pull every probe, and then they lose in attrition.
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There was a thread a couple days ago discussing the 4 gate vs. 3 gate robo. The proponents of the 4 gate claim that no robo build can stop a properly executed 4 gate. I disagree. I believe if the FF's are properly used and the right timing / unit comp is used, the 3 gate robo can defend against this. In order to test this I have pretty much been doing 4 gate against every PvP matchup i get where I cut probes at 21 and go for the 1 gas 4 gate. I still have trouble against properly executed FF's and my own timing. I think, mainly I need to work on my 4 gate timing and when to buidl the pylon at their ramp. I think if you're going 1 gas 4 gate, you really have to be on point against a skilled player with a couple sentries.
Btw, you can't have 4 sentries out by the time the 4 gate gets there. A proper 1 gas 4gate arrives at 5:40 - 6 and if you built a robo you will NOT have 4 sentries if even 2.
However, I don't think PvP is as totally restrictive as you might think. Give the adelscott build a try:
12/17 Gate build 4 zealots / 2 stalkers, pressure, forge and expand behind it then throw up 2 more gates with a cannon at the natural. If you don't feel comfortable with the expand, then just throw up your 2 gates first and then expand. Just search for adelscott on sc2rep.com and find some PvP action. Otherwise, I'll upload one of my replays soon.
Haha, or you could always cannon rush ; ). And I'm still of the opinion that a 3 gate robo can hold the 4 gate.
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On January 13 2011 09:02 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:56 Shifft wrote:
It's the same trick as when you use blink stalkers and blink one onto the ramp for vision then the rest into their base. This is worse though because any sort of tech build will 100% not have enough units to hold a 4 gate if their units get into your base and this makes it like 100x harder to prevent that. Basically all you can do is at least 3 gate before tech if they're 4 gating and have enough units to either stop a pylon from going up or do significant damage to their units during the warp in time, enough that you will be able to stay close enough to your ramp to FF again as well as kill all of their warped in units before their gates are off cooldown.
This is SUPER FUCKING ANNOYING 3 gates before tech doesn't cut it. I've been killing 3 gate robo builds with regularity. If they're mining both gas, they're relying on sentries to hold the ramp, and if they've built sentries, they won't be able to kill my warped in zealots quickly enough.
Sorry, I meant 3 gate and build units, then tech after you're sure a 4 gate isn't coming. I haven't had this build done to me for a few days but I'm fairly sure that 3 gates pumping units will hold off a 4 gate done this way, since if you kill the first round of warp-ins you should be ahead in unit count for a few cycles.
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I'm theorycrafting this time. The problem is the second round of zealots, the ones warping in directly into the main, so why not limit the space ?
A standard wall gate+ cyber + another gate on the other side (+whatever needed, depends on the map) might be enough to deny in-main warping.
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interesting idea but if they see it and go 3 gate robo with obs bye bye buildings. free food for stalkers
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EPT
