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On March 31 2011 11:58 Mojeca wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 02:32 TheGODehT wrote:Just for reference, you can check out DuckloadRa's recent GSL game against oGsMC.... I realize MC didn't go for the 4-gate in the traditional sense, but DuckloadRa was planning/counting on oGsMC doing a 4-gate based on what he scouted. Seems like a build to consider.... especially with warp prism harass/micro on close air maps. This is obviously pretty situational, but it's still a pretty cool idea. Check out set 2: http://www.gomtv.net/2011championship/vod/63894 Re-watch that game. If MC has been 4-gating, it would have hit when White-ra has 2 stalkers, 1 sentry, and an observer. Each lost a zealot so MC would have pushed with 6 stalkers and decimated him with his first round of high ground warp in zealots. That game has no bearing on this discussion. Back to the forge/cannon comments, A forge is hardly a worthless building, and while the cannon loses its value after the rush is held, its still a build worth consideration because a defensive 4-gate doesnt always hold an aggressive one at equal skill. A cannon can tilt the odds into the defending players field making it a reasonable option.
Yeah, White-ra made a brave in-game psychic decision there. I was actually very surprised when he got obs. He just had a total read on MC I think.
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Sry if that was already discussed. Looked through, but didn't read all posts in details.
Imho Blizzard should patch such that
Pylon should not power higher ground even with vision.
That would mainly affect:
* 4 Gate rush
* Cannon rush
* Pylon powered drops, but would encourage more warp prism play.
* * 2vs2 Zerg + Protoss 5 gate zealot rush
Would not affect much general gameplay imho.
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On March 31 2011 15:34 StupidIdea wrote:
Sry if that was already discussed. Looked through, but didn't read all posts in details.
Imho Blizzard should patch such that
Pylon should not power higher ground even with vision.
That would mainly affect:
* 4 Gate rush
* Cannon rush
* Pylon powered drops, but would encourage more warp prism play.
* * 2vs2 Zerg + Protoss 5 gate zealot rush
Would not affect much general gameplay imho.
Smurf... Did you play Brood War? Maybe not the ramps but I think it definitely should be allowed to power high/low ground :/
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On March 31 2011 15:34 StupidIdea wrote:
Sry if that was already discussed. Looked through, but didn't read all posts in details.
Imho Blizzard should patch such that
Pylon should not power higher ground even with vision.
That would mainly affect:
* 4 Gate rush
* Cannon rush
* Pylon powered drops, but would encourage more warp prism play.
* * 2vs2 Zerg + Protoss 5 gate zealot rush
Would not affect much general gameplay imho.
Agreed.
Also add in
*Hallucinated Phoenix DT warpin(gg for T if you don't have Ravens)
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Having warp fields not work uphill would solve the 4-gate warp-in problem, but it seems like it would have an excessive impact on other aspects of the game. Proxy gates, cannon rushes and pylon drops are annoying and cheesy, but they're part of the game, and I think making them impossible would diminish the richness of the game.
A solution that has occurred to me is to have force fields block vision. The issue there is that it would make FFing vastly more effective in situations where you can get your enemy's army entirely behind FFs (like stalker/sentry against roach/hydra).
Another possibility that I think would have a pretty minimal effect otherwise would be to make warp fields block enemy warp-ins. Then you could defend your ramp by means of placing a pylon at the top of it. This would also make drops a bit less potent, but since you generally drop somewhere the opponent does not have vision, I don't think it would make as big an impact on gameplay beyond the 4-gate defense.
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On March 31 2011 15:55 eery1 wrote:
Smurf... Did you play Brood War? Maybe not the ramps but I think it definitely should be allowed to power high/low ground :/
Sry, don't see how BW is related to this, since it had not warp in mechanics.
Pylon of course would still power lower ground.
Somehow I don't see this change as game breaking nerf. Ant pylon behaviour would still be somewhat consistent (compared to the OP idea to prohibit warp in behind FF on the ramp).
Do you ever power buildings on higher ground (besides cannons) ?
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All that would be needed is a fix of the combination forcefield <-> ramp. It shouldn't be possible to warp "above" forcefields that are placed in the middle. Same with stalkers blinking out of fungle, this doesn't even make sense in the first place. Forcefields are supposed to protect your ramp, the ability of warping in units above it makes zero sense.
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On March 31 2011 16:11 StupidIdea wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 15:55 eery1 wrote:
Smurf... Did you play Brood War? Maybe not the ramps but I think it definitely should be allowed to power high/low ground :/ Sry, don't see how BW is related to this, since it had not warp in mechanics. Pylon of course would still power lower ground. Somehow I don't see this change as game breaking nerf. Ant pylon behaviour would still be somewhat consistent (compared to the OP idea to prohibit warp in behind FF on the ramp). Do you ever power buildings on higher ground (besides cannons) ?
Because of how most of the maps are designed at the moment, not many give you the opportunity to build onto higher ground but if people do decide to start making maps like medusa for example where your natural is on high ground it could be useful to put buildings on higher ground one day. Taking out aspects of the game, especially ones that have yet to be explored, limits opportunities for its growth. Quit changing the rules, just play the game differently. Think of the ability to warp onto different terrains as something like a drop. Also, I enjoy vision plays using hallucinations etc and the warp-in ability will become much more bland without it. Just spread out your supply depots like a protoss spreads his pylons to watch for drops. Again, you don't have to make such drastic changes to something that has hardly been in existence... At the most dont allow warpin in onto ramps but not allowing warping in onto different terrains is taking it too far. The more conservative the changes, the better.
*SUMMARY: I think warping onto ramps might need to be changed but NOT warping up onto higher ground*
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On March 31 2011 16:27 sleepingdog wrote:
All that would be needed is a fix of the combination forcefield <-> ramp. It shouldn't be possible to warp "above" forcefields that are placed in the middle. Same with stalkers blinking out of fungle, this doesn't even make sense in the first place. Forcefields are supposed to protect your ramp, the ability of warping in units above it makes zero sense.
Same for Terran wall-in, no?
Blink is different topic.
I understand how it looks like a good thing to make smallest changes possible, but I think pylon energy blocking with FF adds many questions of inconsistency. Would it be like shadow thrown of no energy? Would it cancel started to warp in units? Would it work on same level? Would it cancel power to buildings (for ex you power you cannon in base from lower ground, then opponent) FF ramp and your cannon stop working)? I know we can come up with the answers, but would it be consistent behavior?
I know this topic is mostly about 4gate, but there are other strategies. 2vs2 Zerg+Protoss 5 gate is basically OP.
And we are not making changes, we are just discussing. Kind of "what if..."
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Definitely don't change warping in on high ground. It would make the game less dynamic and isn't needed to solve this.
I think FF denying vision could pose problems unless it blocked vision for the protoss player as well. Just not being able to warp in on ramps would solve this whole issue.
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All that would have to be done imo is to disallow warp-ins on ramps. Disallowing warp-ins/buildings on high/low ground relative to the pylon would go too far and remove far too many tactics for the Protoss, but leaving it as it is is making the match-up pretty boring. By disallowing warp ins on the ramp a force field at the bottom of the ramp would become a 'money' force field, as you can only warp-in on the ramp over that FF, which would now be impossible.
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fast immortal builds can beat 4gates, even with this warping trick. as long as you have a decent mix of zealot/stalker and can split the stalker coming up the ramp in half
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On March 31 2011 16:02 mGMUSE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 15:34 StupidIdea wrote:
Sry if that was already discussed. Looked through, but didn't read all posts in details.
Imho Blizzard should patch such that
Pylon should not power higher ground even with vision.
That would mainly affect:
* 4 Gate rush
* Cannon rush
* Pylon powered drops, but would encourage more warp prism play.
* * 2vs2 Zerg + Protoss 5 gate zealot rush
Would not affect much general gameplay imho.
Agreed. Also add in *Hallucinated Phoenix DT warpin(gg for T if you don't have Ravens)
now you're just being stupid. hallucinated DT is a cool little trick.
And yeah, instant gg for T if you don't have detection vs an invisible unit? OMG NO WAY NERF BLIZZ GG KTHX
Man, Protoss denying your scouting? Must suck not to have an instant cast ability that reveals any area on the map. Oh wait...
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On March 31 2011 15:34 StupidIdea wrote:
Sry if that was already discussed. Looked through, but didn't read all posts in details.
Imho Blizzard should patch such that
Pylon should not power higher ground even with vision.
That would mainly affect:
* 4 Gate rush
* Cannon rush
* Pylon powered drops, but would encourage more warp prism play.
* * 2vs2 Zerg + Protoss 5 gate zealot rush
Would not affect much general gameplay imho.
One more idea came to mind.
Maybe pylon ability to power higher ground could be and upgrade on Nexus or somewhere else. So it would be disabled for an early game only.
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On March 31 2011 15:34 StupidIdea wrote:
Sry if that was already discussed. Looked through, but didn't read all posts in details.
Imho Blizzard should patch such that
Pylon should not power higher ground even with vision.
That would mainly affect:
* 4 Gate rush
* Cannon rush
* Pylon powered drops, but would encourage more warp prism play.
* * 2vs2 Zerg + Protoss 5 gate zealot rush
Would not affect much general gameplay imho.
I would love this change. It would hurt cheese in PvP (which everyone thinks is too cheesy) and it would have almost no impact on the other MU's. All you'd lose is sneaky warp-ins into the main with hallucination or observers, but in those cases, you can get a warp prism almost as quickly.
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4gate would be just as strong except that sentries would be able to hold it where now they can't.
I assume you would need to make pylons also not power low ground either, or else there wouldn't be any sort of elegance or consistency to the change, and Blizzard is not known for making ham-fisted balance changes solely for gameplay without considering whether its an elegant change or a blunt approach.
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Ok, I've read a couple of pages now and I cant believe that no has mentioned this: just alter the vision on ramps so you can't warp over the FF. Simple solution, won't affect anything else e.g. cannon rush.
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On April 01 2011 00:02 Karn3 wrote:
Ok, I've read a couple of pages now and I cant believe that no has mentioned this: just alter the vision on ramps so you can't warp over the FF. Simple solution, won't affect anything else e.g. cannon rush.
Not sure, what exactly are you proposing. Do you mean, that ramp should not be visible from lower ground? In that case units on the ramp would be "invisible" to attacker, and in case units cover all ramp, there is no way for attacker to see them without flying unit. Bad imho.
If you propose, to make such, that high ground is not visible from ramp, again same problems as above.
Current vision mechanics is quite elegant - ramp visible from lower ground, high ground visible from ramp. I see no better way.
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Wait a second. But nicely placed forcefields (at the lower end of the ramp) would make this not work. It's only if you can even get a unit ON the ramp that you get vision.
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The thing that does counter a 4gate, is early stalkers. The early 2-3 stalkers outnumber your early game 1 zealot 1 stalker (1 more stalker in production) and denies proxy pylons. When the other player stays in their base and does some build that tries to stop a 4gate, usually it doesnt (other than dts). The only time I feel good when I 4gate is when I get my first warp in down. The 2nd warp in on the ramp I am usually pretty confident unless he 4gated too, and then its just a micro battle
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EPT
