EPT[D] PvP warp up ramp with 4 gate - Page 9
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ReVolt.inm
34 Posts
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JDeathmetal
Netherlands81 Posts
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Tiamat
United States498 Posts
http://www.battlereports.com/downloadreplay.php/34082_Jungle Basin (2).SC2Replay?replaynum=34082 and http://www.battlereports.com/downloadreplay.php/34092_Scrap Station (3).SC2Replay?replaynum=34092 This one was actually scouted but the 3 gate pressure is too much http://www.battlereports.com/downloadreplay.php/34094_Metalopolis (2).SC2Replay?replaynum=34094 and this one is against a fast robo http://www.battlereports.com/downloadreplay.php/34093_Metalopolis (3).SC2Replay?Last edit: 2011-01-14 14:51:47 replaynum=34093 | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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Tiamat
United States498 Posts
op wrote: IMO, when the only way to defend a 4 gate is to 4 gate. I was just providing a solution to his problem. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On January 23 2011 12:41 Tiamat wrote: I was just providing a solution to his problem. Please, at least quote the post you are replaying to and put the replays & discussion in a "Spoiler" tag. Your discussion is very far afield, offtopic, generally only deserving of inclusion in a different thread focused on the builds that require adjustment to the 4warpgate. In the replays, your opponents showed poor scouting and poor adjustment to what you were doing. Clearly, if somebody considers themselves born to 4warpgate attack at 5:40 and never adjust to the odd build out there, they'll stay in lower leagues where people like you beat them. If my opponent is chronoing his gateways, I need to chrono mine. If he jumps to 3gates fast, and makes clear signs he's proxied more (Hello, no gas!) I need to drop my remaining 3 gateways earlier than I might otherwise like. In perhaps another perspective, you could say cannon rush defeats 4warpgate, simply assuming it's also, like your replays, unscouted and barely reacted to! As a final aside, you're not "scouting" a 4warpgate and adjusting, you're opening up with a build blind to your opponent's build knowing he must change what he's doing (if he's good) to properly repel it and gain an advantage. Yes there are maps with close rush distances (Steppes, close-ground LT and Meta to name a few) where a 2gating player in the style of Adelscott will force different actions from you with his 3 zealots or so. On far distances, and in favorable maps (Delta Quadrant, Jungle Basin, Scrap Station), I'm still climbing to 4 warpgates and climaxing in warp-in up the ramp. As to the original topic: I really liked Response's chrono'd sentry defense, 3 gates before tech with adequate sentry+stalker to kill from range. Link here, courtesy of Response and Khaladas. Maps like Xel'Naga are perfect for this because no backdoor warpins. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
• 9 Pylon • 13 Gate (chrono Probes) • 14 Gas • 16 Pylon • 17 Core • 19 Gate • 20 Stalker (chrono Warpgate) • 23 Pylon (chrono Warpgate) • 24 Stalker • 27 Stalker (chrono) • 29 Gate • 30 Gas • 31 Pylon (chrono Warpgate) • 32 Sentry + Stalker • 36 Pylon Your 2nd and 3rd stalkers pop out ~30 seconds before a standard 4-gate finishes their warpgate tech (FYI don't use this build if you scout a K4G either) so push out right away and delay their proxy pylons. If you can kill the probe you essentially just stopped the 4-gate, but any damage or stalling you can do at this point is good. It should be no problem since it'll likely be your 3 stalkers vs zealot + stalker. If you get pushed back (i.e. he spends a round of warps away from your base and pushes back, just keep chrono'ing your 3 warpgates and pumping out stalkers with maybe 1 extra sentry if needed. You should be able to hold from this point with proper micro and forming an arc w/ your sentries around the top of ramp. Once he falls back throw down your robo and proceed as normal. | ||
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DoctorPhil
Netherlands168 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 21 2011 06:00 DoctorPhil wrote: *sigh* well I guess that's why I always lose to 4 gates, I get a lot of sentries to try to stop it. It really sucks how guys that only know how to 4 gate get into masters and I'm stuck in diamond, getting owned by them. Well then, Always 4gate in PvP, got it. Now you need to learn the different variations of them too | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On March 21 2011 06:00 DoctorPhil wrote: *sigh* well I guess that's why I always lose to 4 gates, I get a lot of sentries to try to stop it. It really sucks how guys that only know how to 4 gate get into masters and I'm stuck in diamond, getting owned by them. Well then, Always 4gate in PvP, got it. Fast immortal + Show Spoiler + I use this, always win against 4 gate, you just need to have good scouting after beating it because he will have sentries, so you gotta most likely get 1-2 observers for dts, and a stargate to counter his most likely one while ONLY pumping out zealots | ||
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Elliosss
United Kingdom5 Posts
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Ada
Germany150 Posts
I try to rush 2 ranged colossi then, chronoboost thermal lances first and put every single gas you don't need for 2 colossi in stalker and zeals of course. I don't like PvP much, so I'm content with this strategy to give me a decent win ratio. | ||
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Tazerenix
Australia340 Posts
This would completely fix PvP. All players would need to do is FF the lower part of their ramp and BOOM 4gate is shutdown directly. Alternatively, increase the distance you need to go up a ramp to gain vision of the high ground by 1 square. The FF at the top of the ramp now stops a 4gate from gaining vision. Thoughts? | ||
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ntntnghia
Vietnam3 Posts
I'm on my mac, I will try to show what I mean tomorrow with screen shots, but this is just in theory, and I'm not sure if this can even work as there may be warp in locations to the sides of the buildings, not to mention being unable to walk your stalkers out later on. | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
As to the original topic: I really liked Response's chrono'd sentry defense, 3 gates before tech with adequate sentry+stalker to kill from range. Link here, courtesy of Response and Khaladas. Maps like Xel'Naga are perfect for this because no backdoor warpins. One thing that helped my thinking in this is to remember not everyone 4 gates, so if you have a 3 gate robo opening in mind you shouldn't be thinking "OMG if he 4gates i'll auto lose". You should be thinking if this guy does ANYTHING except 4 gate me i'll win because i'll have detection, and my colossi will be out before him ( or at worst at the same time as him ). Also you can pretty much see the tell tale signs of a 4 gate, and if you use your early units wisely you can more often than not delay that 4 gate just enough. I feel like a 30 second delay is more than enough to get an immortal out and have your 3 warpgates done and a huge economy lead. At that point you should have a huge advantage, especially from the high ground. If you pump out one early sentry it will have enough energy for 2 FF, which can buy you a lot of seconds. Worst case if you fail to delay him, then you do your best to stop him from warping in pylons at your ramp as your fall back plan. Even with all this you might still lose to a perfect 4 gate, you just gg and move on. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Watching HuK at TSL makes me cringe. You can just sense his lack of understanding of the matchup when you compare his PvP to say.. the PvP of MC (whom Ive seen HuK beat on ladder countless times, but its just ladder so who cares). He looked lost at TSL and even the game he won he made some mistakes and it boils down to not being able to move around the map. HuK has excellent control, but when its army clash vs. army clash in a 4 gate setting the control can sometimes go by the wayside and you have a harder time creating an edge than in small skirmishes. He seems best when its constant pressure all over the place and hes either dictating it or responding to it, but thats just not viable in this matchup or you could get caught with your pants down. + Show Spoiler + Oh and regarding the scouting conundrum and strategy poker just look at Game 1 from TSL where Hasu held off the 4 gate with his own gate and then transitions. If HuK did any other build he gets a huge advantage and probably wins, particularly robo. Game 2 HuK blind counters blink with robo as Hasu stupidly reveals blink a little bit early. Face it, Protoss is the hardest race to scout against. Its true for zergs and terrans trying to scout protoss as well. The only thing making it even viable to compete with out sheer number of similar looking openings is the fact that if we don't get certain units at a certain point in time we flat out die. If protoss was unrestricted by those needs, we would be unstoppable. Defensive 4 gate is where its at, but its just as risky as the 3 gate defense in terms of where it puts you on the tech path. The reason higher tier players don't like PvP is because the best player doesn't always win. That can be said for any matchup but its so much more finicky in PvP. | ||
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Mojeca
United States46 Posts
Defensive 4-gate doesn't solve the 4-gate problem, it exacerbates it. When I first read Tiamit's post I thought, great idea! 3-gate forge to stop it! Then I watched his replays and realized that he had no idea what he was talking about, but the idea was still there. Ive been playing around with it and 1 defensive cannon really does help against those high ground warped zealots, especially if placed perfectly to protect the top of your ramp but still be out of range of low ground stalkers. Going fairly heavy sentry, with 1-2 cannons and stalkers can hold a 4-gate (at least at plat/diamond) And I'm sure the pro's could refine a build like this to possibly work at the pro level. Its at least worth trying right? Can transition to phx or expand or blink and upgrades pretty well. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
Oh, and from another thread I posted in: I have thought about this for a long time, and I believe I have the rough workings for a solution. Basically, there are two reasons why you can't nerf forcefields: 1) Protoss will just DIE to early pressure 2) Gateway tech won't be viable in midgame (eg 6gate, so Muta/ling will have more dominance) There are two reasons why you can't buff the other Gateway units to compensate: 1) 4gates without Sentries are already good, buffing Gateway units will just exaggerate that 2) Gateway units alone are intended to die to some builds (eg Burrowed Roaches), which they wouldn't otherwise die to. The solution to this isn't particularly wacky or weird, but will change games a lot. 1) Nerf the FF range/duration 2) Buff Gateway units (increase Stalker damage to Armoured, increase Zealot attack speed etc) 3) Increase the cost of Warp Gates to 100/100 or 50/100 and multiply the time taken for it to complete by 1.2 or 1.3 EDIT: I'd also like to add some input about the 4gate vs T or Z. At the moment, the problem with the 4gate is NOT the units themselves. Zealot/Stalker are relatively weak, and Sentries are only used for FF and GS. Instead, it is the mechanic of Warp Gates that gives the trouble. It comes pretty fast, and basically gives Protoss a 'free' cycle of units (time-wise) when Warp Gates finishes, and completely nullifies the reinforcement time. This would be solved using the increase to Warp Gate timing and cost, but I'd like to keep Warp Gates themselves as I think they kick ass. Not wildly gamechanging, but will require adjusting to. Gateway units need to be able to compete with other low tech units to be viable as defense without Sentries being a 'crutch' unit (like the Colossus, but that is a whole other can of worms). Forcefields and Sentries will have to be weaker to compensate for this, as at the moment they do seem slightly exploitable. Lastly, 4gate is already too fast in PvP and the timing of it makes it extremely difficult to deal with, to the point where it is standard. Increasing the time and gas cost of it makes Korean 4gate less viable (but not impossible), and also would allow decent tech units to come out before the standard 4gate is done, so that using Immortals or Void Rays for early defense is more viable. As a side effect, the 2gate will get slightly more powerful, but that is never really a problem in higher leagues anyway (which I assume Blizzard is balancing around, E-SPORTS etc). If there are enough responses to this, I might make a new thread about it, but at the moment I don't feel it deserves one. | ||
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UNC.jer
United States43 Posts
Seems like a build to consider.... especially with warp prism harass/micro on close air maps. This is obviously pretty situational, but it's still a pretty cool idea. Check out set 2: http://www.gomtv.net/2011championship/vod/63894 | ||
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Mojeca
United States46 Posts
On March 31 2011 02:32 TheGODehT wrote: Just for reference, you can check out DuckloadRa's recent GSL game against oGsMC.... I realize MC didn't go for the 4-gate in the traditional sense, but DuckloadRa was planning/counting on oGsMC doing a 4-gate based on what he scouted. Seems like a build to consider.... especially with warp prism harass/micro on close air maps. This is obviously pretty situational, but it's still a pretty cool idea. Check out set 2: http://www.gomtv.net/2011championship/vod/63894 Re-watch that game. If MC has been 4-gating, it would have hit when White-ra has 2 stalkers, 1 sentry, and an observer. Each lost a zealot so MC would have pushed with 6 stalkers and decimated him with his first round of high ground warp in zealots. That game has no bearing on this discussion. Back to the forge/cannon comments, A forge is hardly a worthless building, and while the cannon loses its value after the rush is held, its still a build worth consideration because a defensive 4-gate doesnt always hold an aggressive one at equal skill. A cannon can tilt the odds into the defending players field making it a reasonable option. | ||
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