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The entire statement that a 4 gate can only be defended by a 4 gate is so completely unfounded.
First of all the warpin can be stopped with a perfectly placed forcefield, so tech builds with good execution, like DT tech for example, can actually beat a 4 gate.
Also 2 or 3 gate robo builds can work just as well, not being able to stop the warpin doesn't mean you cant stop the push. Units being warped in are still more vulnerable and take 5 secs to materialize so the defender does have a definite advantage. You just need to use mostly ranged units to defend so you don't involve their stalkers sitting at the bottom of the ramp into the fight.
That said I do think 2 changes could be made for PvP:
- warping on top could indeed be removed though I would say it also affects other matchups (perhaps buff warp prism to 150m in return?)
- some maps need to be changed or removed fromt the map pool: blistering sands because it is retarded in every matchup, jungle basin because it is inherently unfair in PvZ and ZvT while also sucking in PvP, DQ because it just sucks and scrap station could use a smaller ramp. Stopping 4 gates on those maps is indeed impossible without a 4gate itself imo.
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problem is that zergs only need pool for spines, and terrans only need racks for bunkers...we need f****** forge for static defense 
EDIT: plus bunkers can be salvage and spines can be replace. cannons not
this is why in pvp FE are not viable
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why not just get hallu and get a VR or Colo for vision?
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On January 22 2011 07:04 siri wrote:problem is that zergs only need pool for spines, and terrans only need racks for bunkers...we need f****** forge for static defense EDIT: plus bunkers can be salvage and spines can be replace. cannons not this is why in pvp FE are not viable
yeah, but do you know how stupidly easy it would be to cheese with P if you didn't need a forge for cannons?
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3Gate forge beats a 4 gate.
I have dont it several times
Basically your 3 zealots arrive before the 6 minute and you cannon their mineral line. They wont have enough stuff to stop both the cannons and the zealot pressure
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2 gate robo can always stop 4 gate. i skip an early zealot. get 2 stalkers and scout the shit out of your nat and surrounding area in an attempt to pop their probe. this greatly effects their warpgate timing. then after getting your two stalkers get your sentry and chrono out your immortal you should now be building. upon seeing there units ff the ramp and if they are building a pylon just shove your units to the side of ur base and shoot it down. then once you have immortal ur wg should be done so you just get 1 sentry and a stalker and ff again. if u want u can split there army a smidge hear. then if u need to get a second immortal and keep pumping gateway units. once u shut down there 4 gate just tech to collosus and gg. however i find 2 gate robo to be total fail on maps like jungle basin or delta quadrant or scrap. as they have 2 accesible ramps or just a huge ramp on scrap.
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I just used this tactic
its impossible for the defender to kill the pylon as some ppl suggest here blindly because its too far away so you have to go down the ramp. which you do not want to do against a 4gate. It really makes the 4gate harder to defend because you simply cannot deny the zealot warpins with 1 FF.
On January 22 2011 11:13 Tiamat wrote:
3Gate forge beats a 4 gate.
I have dont it several times
Basically your 3 zealots arrive before the 6 minute and you cannon their mineral line. They wont have enough stuff to stop both the cannons and the zealot pressure
since this is a pretty uncommon build I suggest to provide a replay.
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United States8477 Posts
There's a lot of bs in this thread. The one thing people have to learn is that there's about 20 different types of 4 gates. Yes, 2 gate robo and 3 gate robo can stop some 4 gates, but neither can stop the standard 4 gate. If you invest any money into a robo before the standard 4 gate comes, you will get crushed by a standard 4 gate. 3 gateways can hold off a 4 gate with perfect forcefields, but not if you make a robo for no reason.
3 gate forge will hold off a 4 gate, but you'll be behind as long as he doesn't sac his units into your cannons.
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On January 22 2011 12:25 4kmonk wrote:
There's a lot of bs in this thread. The one thing people have to learn is that there's about 20 different types of 4 gates. Yes, 2 gate robo and 3 gate robo can stop some 4 gates, but neither can stop the standard 4 gate. If you invest any money into a robo before the standard 4 gate comes, you will get crushed by a standard 4 gate. 3 gateways can hold off a 4 gate with perfect forcefields, but not if you make a robo for no reason.
3 gate forge will hold off a 4 gate, but you'll be behind as long as he doesn't sac his units into your cannons.
if you get the +1/+1 relatively early with this then your not so much behind. letz say you force him to retreat because you build 2 cannons. he then has too many gateways to support unit production + probes + an expansion. you in the other hand only get the upgrades, expand and produce from your 3 gates.
Ive done 3gate forge only a couple times so I dont have that much of a knowledge. but theoretically it really doesnt set you behind if you build only as many cannons so he has to retreat. the problem occurs rather if you build them blindly just because theres a 4gate timing. i can give you a 2gate forge expand rep if you want but I defended a delayed 3gate robo immortal with it so it doesnt fit so well in this thread.
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Im not a pro but a 1 gate robo into 3 gate can defend 4 gate. im diamond and have beat masters with that build. Im not saying that this works every time but neither does a 4 gate. This is not the only counter to 4gate but besides a 10 gate12gate zealot opening this is the only other build i have got to work against the 4gate. People can say what they want but there is more to pvp then just 4 gate vs 4 gate. Also 4gate vs 4gate is pretty fun and very intense. Good way to learn how to multi task and micro.
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This is so annoying to deal with, and is part of the reason 4gate is often only counterable by another 4gate.
Can you imagine if back in beta when the PvP korean warpgate strategy was running rampant, if instead of fixing it by just nerfing the warpgate research time, if they had instead taken the community's suggestion and made it so units warp in slower (aka take longer to warp in) the farther they are from one of your nexuses?
Not only would this help in dealing with the current version of the korean warpgate, but it would also help balance PvP in soooo many ways, including nerfing the stupid amount of power 4gating has.
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On January 22 2011 13:56 -orb- wrote:
This is so annoying to deal with, and is part of the reason 4gate is often only counterable by another 4gate.
Can you imagine if back in beta when the PvP korean warpgate strategy was running rampant, if instead of fixing it by just nerfing the warpgate research time, if they had instead taken the community's suggestion and made it so units warp in slower (aka take longer to warp in) the farther they are from one of your nexuses?
Not only would this help in dealing with the current version of the korean warpgate, but it would also help balance PvP in soooo many ways, including nerfing the stupid amount of power 4gating has.
The korean 4 gate is already extremely easy to stop. Just make a zealot while the core is building and chrono a couple stalkers. Kill the probe and pylons and at most they get in 1 round of zealots which arent too hard to deal with.
The suggestion of not being able to warp on top of ramps seems a much better fix, though i'm not even that sure a fix is needed.
Defensive 4 gate's already do a fine job vs the msot aggresive 4 gates (probe cutting, 1 gas etc.) and there are several builds that work fine vs a 4 gate with more probes and 2 gas.
If you want to play it safe now you can always do a 2 gas 4 gate vs someone with 1 gas and some other build lke 2 gate robo vs a 2 gas 4 gate.
The biggest problem in the game by far is maps really. They make some matchups imbalanced and PvP lame (DQ and jungle basin especially).
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Check into Responses 3g pvp, he gets zeal - sentry - sentry and does just fine. The key though is to put the FF at the bottom and the top. to prevent warp in, however its more important to cut the army. There is no sense in FF if your not going to kill anything, and your opponent is going to outnumber you 10 seconds later. Only let up the ramp what you can handle,
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On January 22 2011 14:33 DanceSC wrote:
Check into Responses 3g pvp, he gets zeal - sentry - sentry and does just fine. The key though is to put the FF at the bottom and the top. to prevent warp in, however its more important to cut the army. There is no sense in FF if your not going to kill anything, and your opponent is going to outnumber you 10 seconds later. Only let up the ramp what you can handle,
I had a really hard time learning this, but it definitely works if you execute properly. I recommend practicing it a bunch before attempting it in a real match. In the mean time just 4 gate in response and you will be at least on even footing and probably ahead if you make good choices with splitting his forces.
One point of clarification. Be VERY careful about letting any units up your ramp, make absolutely to just let a few up at a time. As soon as they have vision on the high ground if he has a pylon in range, there is potentially 4 more units warping into your base. So now you have to deal with those without losing any sentries, continue to warp in units, and throw down perfect force fields at the bottom and top of your ramp. One small slip up and you have his whole army breathing down your neck. Remember also that if he has hallucinate he'll have the vision he'll need as well.
One thing that is a huge help is to make sure he doesn't have any pylons in range. The key is to put stalkers at the edge of your base on 'hold' to pick off pylons (and any other units that he's got too close) while you are double force fielding the ramp.
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United States8477 Posts
Again, gate robo gate gate gate does not hold off the standard 4 gate.
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On January 22 2011 16:01 4kmonk wrote:
Again, gate robo gate gate gate does not hold off the standard 4 gate.
Why 4 gats and a robo... Also a 3 gate CAN hold off a standard 4 gate.
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My best success rate beating a 4 gate comes from applying early pressure and killing probes before they get all their gates up. Then I expand pretty fast and throw up more gates and a forge to be ready to defend. This strategy makes you strong early, then a little vulnerable while you try to defend your expo, but if you hold it off you are in great shape.
This is one of those threads where it's hard for me to separate the good advice from the bad advice but I see a few names I trust anyway.
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United States8477 Posts
On January 22 2011 16:12 MuffinFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 16:01 4kmonk wrote:
Again, gate robo gate gate gate does not hold off the standard 4 gate. Why 4 gats and a robo... Also a 3 gate CAN hold off a standard 4 gate.
Sorry, was replying to someone about 3 posts above me.
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No build is full-proof. Please stop trying to find the magic bullet with these threads.
In my experience, the best thing we can do in PvP is to NEVER EVER EVER let your 9 pylon scout probe die until after your opponents first stalker is out. And then escape with that probe intact. If you can micro your probe constantly while dropping your opening buildings, success will come.
Also, match your opponent's initial gateway production and then kill that damn probe before it gets to drop it's pylon.
It's a shame that PvP seems like a micro nightmare because of the 4 gate, but just think about how much this practice/expertise could improve our PvT and PvZ...i hope >
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On January 22 2011 11:07 Pobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 07:04 siri wrote:problem is that zergs only need pool for spines, and terrans only need racks for bunkers...we need f****** forge for static defense EDIT: plus bunkers can be salvage and spines can be replace. cannons not this is why in pvp FE are not viable yeah, but do you know how stupidly easy it would be to cheese with P if you didn't need a forge for cannons?
it would be very op
but still the reason why pvp there is no fe is because if we really on cannons, the most efficient defense, we have to wait 45 to build a forge and 40 for the cannons. while for example if a zerg see a rush coming he can just put down a couple of spines
and in every mirror matchup there wouldnt be FE without static defense, especially pvp since warp in practically eliminates the defensor advantage
thats the problem on pvp, not if the 4gate is to strong or not
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EPT
