[D] PvP warp up ramp with 4 gate - Page 6

Antimage

Canada1293 Posts

January 13 2011 18:24 GMT

#101

I've already gotten used to it. A one dimensional build isn't that bad. I'd rather have this than back in beta when there were (seemingly) 5+ viable builds.

And more often than not, a high level pvp (e.g. two that I had in the past few days vs Time & Azz) will evolve from the four gate into a late game with robo and/or stargate tech.

The key is to fit in probes when you can and sneak your second gas in when you can.

kcdc

United States2311 Posts

January 13 2011 18:36 GMT

#102

On January 14 2011 02:44 Anomandaris wrote:
Did the OP mensioned something new?
I actually think that 4 gate vs 4 gate is pretty cool. Micro is so important in this matchup.

No, nothing new. Micro is cool I suppose, but having multiple strategic options would be cooler.

Khaladas

United States223 Posts

January 13 2011 21:01 GMT

#103

I'm watching response's channel right now and they are testing this live.

In their testing they are generally able to hold off the 4 gate with zealot, sentry, stalker, sentry sentry off 3 gates then just sentry/stalker, and work on getting your robo up while pumping probes. You need a lot of sentries so you can Double FF the ramp so they don't have any place to warp in units or visibility to warp to higher ground. It's kind of touchy and if you miss a FF it's GG, but it seems possible anyway.

Gecko

United States519 Posts

January 13 2011 21:51 GMT

#104

I actually do not mind having to 4gate, it sort of removes the randomness that was present in the beta where PvP felt like playing a elaborate game of rock paper scissors. In the games i had where both players 4gated and did not cripple the other it sort of evolved into mass zealot/stalker/colossus, which is what would happen anyways if you wanted to go 3gate robo. In my opinion going robo and being greeted by void rays was the worst thing ever. I would rather lose in a micro war where one zealot sneaking into your mineral line could mean everything because it was not completely out of my control.

Tsabo

Russian Federation266 Posts

January 13 2011 22:36 GMT

#105

You can place forcefields so that no units can be warped over them and blick stalkers can not blink up.

Danglars

United States12133 Posts

January 14 2011 07:53 GMT

#106

On January 14 2011 00:14 kcdc wrote:

Show nested quote +

You can also get the job done with 1 pylon by placing the first pylon a little closer and skewed to the side a bit. The position rsvp used is good because it's almost impossible to snipe from the high ground, but if the defender doesn't have a good stalker count, you can put your first pylon in a more aggressive position to start warping in all of your units up the ramp faster.

Yeah I wanted to demonstrate both, because a defensive 4warpgate with high stalker count can get good snipes. So the last picture has an example second pylon positioning in a more aggressive style.

Mystogun

United States392 Posts

January 15 2011 00:52 GMT

#107

This hasn't happened to me yet in any of the PvPs I've played. Granted, I'm low diamond, but I open games with a delayed gas, two gates, and then pressuring with a handful of zealots and a couple of stalkers. I can normally get ahead economically enough that the game turns into colossi v colossi.

I feel like earlier pressure circumvents the warping into your base, as long as you can hit before their warpgates kick in.

Danglars

United States12133 Posts

January 16 2011 06:56 GMT

#108

On January 14 2011 06:01 Khaladas wrote:
I'm watching response's channel right now and they are testing this live.

In their testing they are generally able to hold off the 4 gate with zealot, sentry, stalker, sentry sentry off 3 gates then just sentry/stalker, and work on getting your robo up while pumping probes. You need a lot of sentries so you can Double FF the ramp so they don't have any place to warp in units or visibility to warp to higher ground. It's kind of touchy and if you miss a FF it's GG, but it seems possible anyway.

So they found a way to get those sentries and survive a zealot/stalker poke early on? I'd be interested to see this.

ucbEntilZha

United States96 Posts

January 16 2011 07:07 GMT

#109

Umm, control your sentries well? It is possible to FF right at the bottom of the ramp (as oGsMC and other tosses have done) so that your opponent can't gain vision up your ramp.

iSTime

1579 Posts

January 16 2011 09:06 GMT

#110

On January 16 2011 16:07 EnderPR wrote:
Umm, control your sentries well? It is possible to FF right at the bottom of the ramp (as oGsMC and other tosses have done) so that your opponent can't gain vision up your ramp.

... did you even read OP?

It's definitely possible to hold with 3 gate (and possibly 2 gate can stall long enough to get an immortal out and trade favorably), though, since you can force field and when they warp in a zealot follow by 2-3 more zealots you focus them down while not losing units to their stalkers at the bottom of the ramp, and keep the ramp force fielded.

If you successfully do this to 1-2 rounds of zealot warp ins it's an auto-win; you can't afford to trade 3-4 zealots for about 1 unit and 2 force fields more than once before you get completely overwhelmed.

EDIT: Personally I've had success holding 4 gates with 2 gate going zealot sentry sentry out of the first gate. I haven't tested it a whole lot, though. Against the standard 20 probe 4 gate that comes with 1 zealot+2 stalkers you can easily force field them out forever, and by the time they warp in their second round (to gain vision using the mechanic described in OP) you will have 4 sentries+3 zealots to focus down the zealots warped in above the force field. They have 6 stalkers able to shoot up at you from below the ramp, though, so it's very close, definitely helps if they get a stalker caught from the first 3 units.

Silidons

United States2813 Posts

January 16 2011 11:58 GMT

#111

this is new to you people? i've been doing this for ages...

but it seems i must come back to 4 gating PvP - it's the only thing that's holding me back from masters. i almost lose every PvP no matter what strategy i go or my opponent goes, i only win when their micro is terrible.

does everyone else just 4 gate all-in each time? i'm sick and tired of losing.

goldenwitch

United States338 Posts

January 16 2011 12:13 GMT

#112

that's pretty much how it goes silidons, a "standard" "normal" match of pvp involves both players 4 gating and intense micro until one player makes too many mistakes and loses. Occasionally you get games where the attacking player gets repelled, but the defending player didn't manage to get a proxy pylon in a good position before getting attacked so the defender can't immediately counter. In that situation, both players should immediately start to tech and continue to mass gateway units. After observers are out, the players can decide to expand or not.

However, 3 gate builds that rely on sentries to cut the enemy army in half and achieve advantage that way are increasingly popular.

Markwerf

Netherlands3728 Posts

January 16 2011 12:22 GMT

#113

Despite this old trick I still think the defender has a pretty sizeable advantage. You just can't invest in too many sentries and you need a significant amount of stalkers to defend.

The trick for the defender is just not to place the forcefield too early. Let a few (2 or 3) units come up the ramp and then cut off the rest with FF. Then focus fire anything on top of the ramp, especially the units that get warped in, and make sure to hold the zealots back a little bit. The biggest reason people defending a 4 gate usually lose is that they let the aggresive player use their stalkers on your zealots, if you just use stalkers and sentries only it is easy to pick off the units that get warped in while losing nothing.

Having more then 1 or 2 sentries in your army at any time in PvP is bad and often an autoloss though. Either the aggressor just gets up the ramp by using one of many tricks (blink, pylon near the edge or hallucinated colossus all do the job) or the other player has a significant tech advantage. Just never ever make more then 1 sentry early but rely on units instead to defend and you'll have a much easier time defending against 4 gate's.

I do think at some point warping in near the other should be slightly nerfed to slightly nerf P's aggresive options. For example let the warpin procedure last 3 more secs so the units are vulnerable for a longer time but keep the length of a warp cycle (time between warping zealot#1 and #2) the same.

Never the less it's really easy to beat 4 gate's if you want. DT tech for example with 1 sentry to hold the ramp for a small while (just need to buy some time only) does really well. THey might get up the ramp slightly before DT finish but when they do they immediately give control of the game. Also with good stalker usage you can often snipe the pylon near the ramp before it gets up while still being able to control the ramp with FF. It is definately not hard to tech at all in PvP, the real problem lies with the fact that a 4 gate is VERY hard to scout 100%. If they delay boosting the warpgate tech just a little till after your scout is dead there is almost no way to know if they 4 gate, a 1 gate FE for example has the same exact build as a 4 gate early on.

PatouPower

Canada1119 Posts

January 16 2011 12:32 GMT

#114

Have you tried to forcefield but block the space right behind it so warping isn't possible? Genius did it in a game this season (I think it was against anypro) and blick stalkers couldn't blink in, even if they had the vision of the base. The things is not to deny the vision (wich is hard to do since you don,t know what your opponent see), but to block the space your opponent can use with your army. So you block your ramp at the top (not at the bottom), rally your army right next to it to avoided being blunk/warped in, and it should do the trick. I would really want to see a replay of it failing.

Sek-Kuar

Czech Republic593 Posts

January 16 2011 12:52 GMT

#115

Warp-in should be removed from game (or nerfor for example to warp-in only fo pylon that power up you gate) because it removes defenders advantage.

In TvT you can defend 3 rax with 2 rax easy simply because it takes 50sec to get on other side of map (attacking with ~6 less units), sometimes even 1 rax if you scout and play good (and opponent attacks early).

Same goes for TvZ or ZvZ, because defenders advantage exists there.

However in PvZ, PvT and PvP protoss always have advantage no matter whether they are attacking or defending, and this advantage completely overrides defenders advantage so you can beat perfect 4gate with only perfect 4game and you as defender wont even have advantage. Its such a stupid gamebreaking skill, it should have been kept for LoV campaign similar to Tech Reactors.

Markwerf

Netherlands3728 Posts

January 16 2011 14:32 GMT

#116

neh there is still a defenders advantage. The aggressor has to put pylons in vulnerable places (meaning he can't retreat easily) and the aggressor still has to get up the ramp which still puts him at a disadvantage.
It isn't hard at all to beat a 4 gate. It's hard to scout and be sure a 4 gate is coming while still being able to counter it..

iChau

United States1210 Posts

January 16 2011 14:40 GMT

#117

On January 16 2011 21:52 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Warp-in should be removed from game (or nerfor for example to warp-in only fo pylon that power up you gate) because it removes defenders advantage.

In TvT you can defend 3 rax with 2 rax easy simply because it takes 50sec to get on other side of map (attacking with ~6 less units), sometimes even 1 rax if you scout and play good (and opponent attacks early).

Same goes for TvZ or ZvZ, because defenders advantage exists there.

However in PvZ, PvT and PvP protoss always have advantage no matter whether they are attacking or defending, and this advantage completely overrides defenders advantage so you can beat perfect 4gate with only perfect 4game and you as defender wont even have advantage. Its such a stupid gamebreaking skill, it should have been kept for LoV campaign similar to Tech Reactors.

\

That's an ignorant idea.

Warp-in is basically a protoss mechanic, same as the hatchery's larvae / creep or the terran's reactor / cheap tech-lab.

Warp-in is vulnerable when the units are warped in, and that's where you can destroy the units.
It's not game-breaking, and if we were forced to use our slow gateways EVERY match-up. We would honestly have a hard time. Zealots take years to get there.

Terrans have stim, so when they stim, they ALWAYS stim + kite back to their reinforcements.
Stalkers can do that, too, but you have to keep on micro-ing as they're not as fast ALLLLL the way to the slow zealots.

The only thing that should be nerfed is the ramp warp-in.

Also, sentries would be hard to get. OUR HERO UNITS.

15 seconds to cast a forcefield and around 42+ seconds to create a sentry.
We can barely create enough sentries to save our asses.

If you want to take away warp-in, take away your mules.

MapleSparKz

United States61 Posts

January 16 2011 14:48 GMT

#118

People have already known about this. I was watching Response's stream the other day and he found out that if you ff twice (one at the bottom and one in the middle of the ramp) you can no longer warp in units at the top. You just have to be perfect with your ffs.

summerloud

Austria1201 Posts

January 16 2011 15:02 GMT

#119

the way warpgates work just breaks pvp, and the fact that forge builds so much faster than gateway breaks it even more...

i think the only way to prevent 4wg from crushing anything that is not 4wg is to make the time it takes to convert gateways into warpgates way longer. that way you dont get such an immediately huge unit advantage

ofc, right now this would be very hard to change since balance is really good and this would fuck up other matchups, but i really see no other way to ever fix pvp

also, a metagame question: 3gate sentry might beat 4wg, but it loses to 2gate faster robo. so its basically rock paper scissors again?

Sek-Kuar

Czech Republic593 Posts

January 16 2011 15:26 GMT

#120

On January 16 2011 23:40 iChau wrote:

Show nested quote +

Remove warp-in, make bigger maps and reduce gateway production time (and return cheaper and faster dark shrine) = big step towards balance.

Tell me, you dont want longer macro games where better players will win? Because as long as warp-in will remain in game, that is not possible.

So Im not asking for protoss nerf, im asking for removing warp-in and rebalancing gateway units. So games more affected by defender advantage and winners ae really better players, not players that can abuse ignoring map size.

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