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On January 13 2011 13:38 Acridice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 13:31 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 13:21 Acridice wrote:On January 13 2011 13:18 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 12:47 Acridice wrote:On January 13 2011 12:41 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 12:36 Acridice wrote:
2. I do a more econ friendly 4 gate where I never stop makin probes. What I do is not such a fast warpgate research and I make more earlier units. While cyber is finishing I make a zealot, then chrono boost the stalker and the cyber when cyber finishes. Make another stalker and a 2nd gateway at same time. As I'm doing this, I'm patrolling the map for map control and checking for proxies, killing probes and such. My warpgate tech finishes a little later and when it finishes I pressure his ramp. If he's done an aggressive 4 gate I'm ahead. If he techs I get a couple sentries out, make a concave around his ramp while I expand. These tend to work pretty well for me. I'm 2700 diamond. Maybe a little bit low, but I think the difference is just the number of mistakes people make. Yes, it is because you are a bit low. A 4 gate that cuts probes at 20 will absolutely destroy you if you don't cut probes. yes, I understand that. I believe a 10gate deserves a different reaction, like the 2 gate zealot pressure strat. However, a standard 12 gate warpgate I believe I can beat with econ friendly 4 gate. here is why. If I can control the map and prevent the proxy doesn't that buy me enough time to get my warpgate tech up? plus I have the extra units I was producing out of the gateways before the warpgate comes up. Any probe after the 16th on minerals takes about 3-4 minutes to pay for itself. Stopping proxy pylons buys you half a minute of time at most, depending on the map. Ok, but even so, the minute of time it buys me gets my warpgate tech up, and I don't think my extra probes are going to interfere with my production. It has nothing to do with warpgate tech. Basically every 2 probes you make for awhile is going to be an extra zealot for the other player. Given that the defender's advantage is small enough as is, that extra 2 or so zealots or stalkers that your opponent has more than you is more than enough to give him the edge to win the game. I'm sorry, I'm still having trouble understanding this. If I can produce off all 4 gates as I build probes, how is this not even. Are you saying that if I make extra probes, I can't continue to produce on 4 gates?
... but you can't. You can't even fully support 3 gateways constantly with a full mining base (30 probes), much less 4 gateways and a nexus off of not fully saturated base.
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... but you can't. You can't even fully support 3 gateways constantly with a full mining base (30 probes), much less 4 gateways and a nexus off of not fully saturated base.
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I'm sorry man, I'm having trouble believing this. And, it is inconsistent. Not only that but I have been able to produce out of 4 gateways on one base. And there is no way you can't support 3 gateways on a fully saturated base. Please, what league / level are you at?
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I'm glad you posted this because I was starting to feel the same way.
I've been trying to do 3 gate robo into expand but a high econ 4 gate ( sometimes even 5 ) just keeps on with wave after wave, and most bases have easy places to warp in units into your base. I'm sure if I had better micro I might be able to hold it off, but i'm finding it pretty difficult in a lot of games ( platinum ).
The last time I had any real success pvp was when i just went 4 gate every game, maybe it's time to just go back to that and take my chances.
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On January 13 2011 14:24 Acridice wrote:
I'm sorry man, I'm having trouble believing this. And, it is inconsistent. Not only that but I have been able to produce out of 4 gateways on one base. And there is no way you can't support 3 gateways on a fully saturated base. Please, what league / level are you at?
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2055009#blog
#9
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On January 13 2011 14:24 Acridice wrote:
I'm sorry man, I'm having trouble believing this. And, it is inconsistent. Not only that but I have been able to produce out of 4 gateways on one base. And there is no way you can't support 3 gateways on a fully saturated base. Please, what league / level are you at?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162717#15
Ok I lied, you can support 3 gateways with a fully saturated base if you don't count chrono boost or having to build pylons. I guess pylons may not really be a factor when your constantly attacking and losing your army but there's no reason not to factor in chrono boost, so my statement still stands. There has been nothing inconsistent to what I have said, the only thing that's inconsistent is a player's macro.
And why does it matter what league I'm in? Just look at the math.
EDIT: damnit Lagrangian :p
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Well, this is terrifying. At least the adelscott won't care either way, really, because of they way it deals with 4 gate
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On January 13 2011 14:49 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 14:24 Acridice wrote:
I'm sorry man, I'm having trouble believing this. And, it is inconsistent. Not only that but I have been able to produce out of 4 gateways on one base. And there is no way you can't support 3 gateways on a fully saturated base. Please, what league / level are you at? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162717#15Ok I lied, you can support 3 gateways with a fully saturated base if you don't count chrono boost or having to build pylons. I guess pylons may not really be a factor when your constantly attacking and losing your army but there's no reason not to factor in chrono boost, so my statement still stands. There has been nothing inconsistent to what I have said, the only thing that's inconsistent is a player's macro. And why does it matter what league I'm in? Just look at the math. EDIT: damnit Lagrangian :p
Would you agree that when you are attacking someone's base during a 4 gate it's really important to micro your units well since the loss of one unit can make the difference in a game. If so, isn't it worth 150 minerals to allow your macro to slip a little so you can micro as efficiently as possible?
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On January 13 2011 15:19 Khaladas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 14:49 Anihc wrote:On January 13 2011 14:24 Acridice wrote:
I'm sorry man, I'm having trouble believing this. And, it is inconsistent. Not only that but I have been able to produce out of 4 gateways on one base. And there is no way you can't support 3 gateways on a fully saturated base. Please, what league / level are you at? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=162717#15Ok I lied, you can support 3 gateways with a fully saturated base if you don't count chrono boost or having to build pylons. I guess pylons may not really be a factor when your constantly attacking and losing your army but there's no reason not to factor in chrono boost, so my statement still stands. There has been nothing inconsistent to what I have said, the only thing that's inconsistent is a player's macro. And why does it matter what league I'm in? Just look at the math. EDIT: damnit Lagrangian :p Would you agree that when you are attacking someone's base during a 4 gate it's really important to micro your units well since the loss of one unit can make the difference in a game. If so, isn't it worth 150 minerals to allow your macro to slip a little so you can micro as efficiently as possible?
Oh I'm in full support of 4 gate, my argument is just that you can't indiscriminately produce probes non-stop.
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Can you post a replay of you doing this? i'll love you
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On January 13 2011 08:40 kcdc wrote:
By placing a pylon at the bottom of your opponent's ramp slightly skewed off to the side, it's possible to warp in units over a forcefield and into your opponent's main without vision. Your units on the low ground have vision on the ramp, so you warp in a unit as far up as you can, immediately gaining a small area of vision in the main which you use to warp in the rest of your units.
This pylon placement needs a screenshot to continue the discussion well. Also, a screenshot of the offending forcefield. The upper placed forcefield I seem to never be able to get over, but the bottom of ramp forcefield I can.
Sorry, words don't cut it for me ><
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Warpgates make pvp such a huge pain in the ass simply because 4gate is SOOOO easy to execute and so difficult to stop without going 4gate yourself. Maybe every nexus could have a psi field of some sort, and with every pylon, that field grows and every pylon within range of that field could sustain the warpin mechanic. But that's just a passing daydream for balancing pvp.
Personally I've just given up all hope in any build not 4gate because it's just too hard to defend with sentries and pray to survive til immortal comes out. Until a method to stop 4gate consistently appears, pvp will suck.
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zealot - stalker - sentry gives you 2 ffs for a 4 warpgate push.
If you make pure stalker off 3 gate (while heading for blink or robo) from there you are spending all your money because 1 base stalker can really only support 3 gates with pylons.
Just make sure you have 2 ff's left at all time and 1-2 zealots (warp in replacements/extra sentries).
When he warps onto your ramp/straight into base just pull your units back so his stalkers can't hit anything and pick off zealots with stalkers, using your 1 zealot to tank if necessary. And you just traded 1 zealot + damaged stalker shields for 4 zealots. Just make sure you know how to click your sentries and run them away if they get target fired by the zealots (sounds so basic but so many people herpderp and just stare at the screen watching the pretty stalkers shoot). If the zealots split to your probes just throw down that 2nd forcefield and you have 15 game seconds to kill the zealots which should not be hard.
I see people ff the ramp then stand there and just a click and wonder why they lose to a 4gate when they are letting the 5-6 stalkers get free hits on their units. The simple pulling units back sort of destroys 4 gate 4 zealot warpin.
Once immortals/blink is up 4 gate sort of just loses.
I haven't really lost to a 4 gate pvp in a really long time, but I don't really have a replay right now--if I remember I'll post one next time someone four gates me.
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On January 13 2011 15:49 Anihc wrote:![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-180421.jpg)
How did that game last so long when you were a full gateway up on him and him on 11 probes for half the battle?
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pvp is why I switched to terran, it's worse than zvz in bw.
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On January 13 2011 10:14 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 10:09 dwightasian wrote:
couldn't you just forcefield the very bottom of the ramp and have 4+stalkers hold position at the top of the ramp and shoot zealots warping in? Even if he got one or two completely warped in they would be killed in a matter of seconds...
I 4 gated and someone did this to me...they stalled until they got a colossus out and I just died. Well, due to the necessary 4-5 sentries that can easily be sniped from the bottom due to the warping zealots, and if you make 4 stalkers, you might not be able to afford replacement sentries + colossi. In fact, you won't be able to get the robotic's bay for another minute (if you warp-in 4 stalkers), and if he somehow, just somehow, snipes 1 sentry, that all-important bay is delayed for around 30 seconds.
4-5 sentries? Just make 1, FF ramp when his initial ground army shows up, if he warps units onto your high ground while the ramp is ff, just pull your stalkers back a bit and own the warping in units while the other ground units are locked out... should be basically 4 free kills at least, which is enough difference to hold off easily if you had 3 gateways.
Kind of sucks that pvp is the new zvz though. Warped in gateway units are the new speedlings and colossi are the new mutalisks. Almost everything else seems to be unviable =[ Blizzard never did find a way to make zvz interesting in BW though if you played zvz on maps that would be too large for any other matchup you'd have a much better chance of seeing hive tech and getting interesting games more often. Obviously that's not practical for serious tourneys/ladders. And larger maps probably wouldn't help pvp anyways since warping in is instant.
My suggested fix (at least for warpgate rush): You cannot warp into an enemy player's energy field. His pylon's energy field blocks your pylon's energy field (and vice versa). Then you could use pylons to more easily block units from warping onto your main's high ground, and use chained sentries to hold your ramp with a small army against gateway units long enough to get out your tech, like you can against the other races. EDIT-- as an added bonus, this blocks the lame-ass cannon rushes that are terrorizing the lower ranks too.
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can't they shoot the pylon down from their side with stalkers or no?
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On January 13 2011 17:49 .kv wrote:
can't they shoot the pylon down from their side with stalkers or no?
1) pylons warp in faster than a small number of stalkers can take them down. But if you have enough stalkers to prevent 1 pylon from warping in, he can just build 2 or even 3 and cancel the ones that are more hurt anyways.
2) He will already have 5 or 6 stalkers on the low ground trying to climb your ramp while this is happening, which if you went for a tech build outnumber you. While you are wasting shots on his pylon, his stalkers are shooting you. Unless of course you have a sentry and have awesome enough reaction time to get a ff off on the bottom of your ramp before even 1 of his units starts climbing the ramp and gives vision. If you pull back a little and kill that one unit you have now wasted more than enough time for his pylon(s) to finish warping in.
Theoretically with perfect play and a large enough stalker count you might be able to slow down his pylon warp-in and waste some of his money by forcing him to make 2 or 3 pylons but there's no way you could actually stop him from getting a pylon up and warping into your main base without having gone 4 gate yourself. The only thing you can do is have enough units and good enough micro to stop him even though he will be able to warp into your main basically no matter what you do.
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people that think that you can only defend 4 gate with a 4 gate must lack of creativity or are really brainwashed by "standards".
I defend with just 2 gates and I´am rather concerned if the opponents just contains me than sacrificing half of his army on my ramp
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Okay for those of you, like me, that like pictures =).
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/07tB7.jpg)
Figure 1: Forcefield is in exact middle on the bottom, zealots warped in above it using vision from units below the forcefield
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/iQEN5.jpg)
Figure 2: Forcefield is in exact middle of the top, zealots can warp in with the same pylon above the forcefield.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/jx1yg.jpg)
Figure 3: Second Pylon is placed closer to allow multiple units to be warped in on the top.
Figured it was true, thank you for the replay Anihc.
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EPT
