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On January 13 2011 09:14 Valefort wrote:
I'm theorycrafting this time. The problem is the second round of zealots, the ones warping in directly into the main, so why not limit the space ?
A standard wall gate+ cyber + another gate on the other side (+whatever needed, depends on the map) might be enough to deny in-main warping.
Most likely it won't, and on a lot of maps such as delta quadrant they have so many different workable places to put their pylon that this has no chance at all of working.
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On January 13 2011 09:07 Shifft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 09:02 kcdc wrote:On January 13 2011 08:56 Shifft wrote:
It's the same trick as when you use blink stalkers and blink one onto the ramp for vision then the rest into their base. This is worse though because any sort of tech build will 100% not have enough units to hold a 4 gate if their units get into your base and this makes it like 100x harder to prevent that. Basically all you can do is at least 3 gate before tech if they're 4 gating and have enough units to either stop a pylon from going up or do significant damage to their units during the warp in time, enough that you will be able to stay close enough to your ramp to FF again as well as kill all of their warped in units before their gates are off cooldown.
This is SUPER FUCKING ANNOYING 3 gates before tech doesn't cut it. I've been killing 3 gate robo builds with regularity. If they're mining both gas, they're relying on sentries to hold the ramp, and if they've built sentries, they won't be able to kill my warped in zealots quickly enough. Sorry, I meant 3 gate and build units, then tech after you're sure a 4 gate isn't coming. I haven't had this build done to me for a few days but I'm fairly sure that 3 gates pumping units will hold off a 4 gate done this way, since if you kill the first round of warp-ins you should be ahead in unit count for a few cycles.
Maybe. You don't often kill the first round of warp-ins for free tho. Executed properly, a 4 gate builds a pylon on the opponent's side of the map reasonably close to the opponent's main to warp in 4 stalkers at completion of warpgate research. You start a pylon at the bottom of their ramp as soon as you can (while attacking with your 1 zealot and 6 stalkers) to time the pylon's completion with the cooldown after your first round of stalkers. Then you warp in your 4 zealots up the ramp. Against a player defending with forcefields, you'll always have a big advantage in stalker count, so if he tries to attack your zealots with zealots, his zealots die more quickly than yours do. The defender won't have more than a stalker or 2 and sentries don't do damage, so it's really hard for the forcefield player to kill those 4 zealots without losing units himself.
Maybe 3 gate robo can defend a perfect 4 gate. Maybe. It's definitely much more difficult than 4 gating tho, so at equal skill, the 4 gater will win most of the time.
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On January 13 2011 09:23 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 09:07 Shifft wrote:On January 13 2011 09:02 kcdc wrote:On January 13 2011 08:56 Shifft wrote:
It's the same trick as when you use blink stalkers and blink one onto the ramp for vision then the rest into their base. This is worse though because any sort of tech build will 100% not have enough units to hold a 4 gate if their units get into your base and this makes it like 100x harder to prevent that. Basically all you can do is at least 3 gate before tech if they're 4 gating and have enough units to either stop a pylon from going up or do significant damage to their units during the warp in time, enough that you will be able to stay close enough to your ramp to FF again as well as kill all of their warped in units before their gates are off cooldown.
This is SUPER FUCKING ANNOYING 3 gates before tech doesn't cut it. I've been killing 3 gate robo builds with regularity. If they're mining both gas, they're relying on sentries to hold the ramp, and if they've built sentries, they won't be able to kill my warped in zealots quickly enough. Sorry, I meant 3 gate and build units, then tech after you're sure a 4 gate isn't coming. I haven't had this build done to me for a few days but I'm fairly sure that 3 gates pumping units will hold off a 4 gate done this way, since if you kill the first round of warp-ins you should be ahead in unit count for a few cycles. Maybe. You don't often kill the first round of warp-ins for free tho. Executed properly, a 4 gate builds a pylon on the opponent's side of the map reasonably close to the opponent's main to warp in 4 stalkers at completion of warpgate research. You start a pylon at the bottom of their ramp as soon as you can (while attacking with your 1 zealot and 6 stalkers)
I really don't get why you don't just make 2 Zealots and 6 Stalkers >_< The initial push is so much stronger that way and it doesn't even come later
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if they put it juz barely enough to warp in unit. i am sure 2 stalker block or so will prevent that from happening. His army should be smaller than yours so your existing army would be able to clear any units that move up the ramp before you manage to FF). Which is why i believe we do not need 4 gate to counter 4 gate. In fact i have been trying to get 2 gate before zealot to crank up units. It's would produce the same number of units as a standard 3 gate for the first warp in.
Another point to of interest would be i find zealot more useful to stop 4 gate with a couple of sentry and 2/3 stalkers. As zealots are tanks, they are able to focus down the warping in units while restanding the abuse of the enemy stalkers. Correct me if i'm wrong that warping in units take extra dmg from your zealot too. Spoting for such pylons are important too so place 1/2 pylon at possible locations for spotting.
Which set of warp-in did he did on you? Normally after the first 1/2 set you shld have enough stalker/sentry to destroy the pylon before it's done. When i lose to 4 gate it's either i screw up my build abit (getting sentry first for instance, thks skiyo for letting me know the reason i lost) or get caught offguard with his pylon.
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It's be nice to see some pictures as I've never seen this in action.
Wouldn't the best fix to just require vision for warp-in (which is already the case and this sounds like a bug?)
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First of all, you can't hold a 4 gate without at least 3 gates of your own. It just isn't doable. As soon as you see the other toss not CBing his nexus, that is your window to start CBing your gateways. You should be able to get out 3 more units than him when his warp gate tech finishes. His warp gate tech will be a good 30 seconds ahead of yours, so he will have full round of units when he reaches your base, and be 1 unit ahead+what he warps in on your ramp. That means that your stalkers are going to have to hold off 1 full round of zealots warping in before you can catch up. Be SURE that all your stalkers and sentries are as far back from the ramp as possible and still able to shoot units warping in at the top. If you do it properly, you'll just be getting your 1st warp in and 1st tech unit/blink when you finish off his 1st wave of zealots. From there, you should be able to hold reasonably safely.
If you scouted him opening something super aggressive like a 10 gate, you'll have to adapt accordingly by cutting probes.
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one sign i looking out for is if his nexus is making more probe. if i notice he has only 1 gas and his nexus stopped producing probe as it should... it's a huge sign he's 4 gating. look at the crystal above the nexus:D
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On January 13 2011 09:32 Skyro wrote:
It's be nice to see some pictures as I've never seen this in action.
Wouldn't the best fix to just require vision for warp-in (which is already the case and this sounds like a bug?)
You wind up with vision. Don't have pictures, but it's in every high level 4 gate. A pylon at the bottom of a ramp gets vision of the entire ramp, so you warp in a unit at the top of the ramp for vision of the high ground. Then you warp in the rest.
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This really isn't a "trick" and isn't new, it's actually been discussed before in the multitude of other PvP threads out there.
That being said, you're right and it is the reason why PvP is all about 4 gate vs 4 gate - which again, has been stated in the numerous other PvP threads out there.
I've seen a 3 gate 2 gas build hold off a 4 gate though, but it's definitely really really hard to do so.
For those people saying to get a lot of sentries or get an immortal out fast - that's the surest way to lose - tech too fast or invest too much in sentries and not have enough gateway firepower. An immortal isn't insta-win when half of the 4 gater's army consists of zealots.
The only solid way to winning is to do 4 gate yourself and defend, but getting slightly better eco. This can lead to some stupid mind games - both players can 4 gate and then try to defend, ending up with both players just sitting in their base. Whoever dares to build more probes wins. Or the other way around, risk building too many probes and if your opponent attacks with his 4 gate then you lose.
TL;DR: pvp sucks
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On January 13 2011 09:34 doggywarrior wrote:
one sign i looking out for is if his nexus is making more probe. if i notice he has only 1 gas and his nexus stopped producing probe as it should... it's a huge sign he's 4 gating. look at the crystal above the nexus:D
If I plan to 4 gate and his probe is sticking around in my main until my stalker finishes, I build probes and cancel them right before they finish so it looks like my nexus is working while I'm actually spending very little money and no supply. I also start my second gas for him to scout and cancel after my stalker chases the probe off. I probably wind up wasting 30-40 minerals on the decoy, but the denied information is much more valuable. They can't know what you're doing (they usually suspect tech), and if they go for a tech build, you win.
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I have been having problems defending this strat (actually you did it to me kcdc and lost), and is very very hard to stop if you dont 4 gate.
Like others said, you have to FF the bottom AND top of your ramp, because if you..
1.- FF the bottom they warp a zealot at the top of the ramp, and then they have total vision to warp the rest.
2.- FF the top, they send a zealot to the bottom/middle of the ramp, and that grant them vision so they can warp inside your base.
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On January 13 2011 09:40 Anihc wrote:
This really isn't a "trick" and isn't new, it's actually been discussed before in the multitude of other PvP threads out there.
That being said, you're right and it is the reason why PvP is all about 4 gate vs 4 gate - which again, has been stated in the numerous other PvP threads out there.
I've seen a 3 gate 2 gas build hold off a 4 gate though, but it's definitely really really hard to do so.
For those people saying to get a lot of sentries or get an immortal out fast - that's the surest way to lose - tech too fast or invest too much in sentries and not have enough gateway firepower. An immortal isn't insta-win when half of the 4 gater's army consists of zealots.
The only solid way to winning is to do 4 gate yourself and defend, but getting slightly better eco. This can lead to some stupid mind games - both players can 4 gate and then try to defend, ending up with both players just sitting in their base. Whoever dares to build more probes wins. Or the other way around, risk building too many probes and if your opponent attacks with his 4 gate then you lose.
TL;DR: pvp sucks
Agree with everything. It's certainly not new. It's standard at high levels. PvP would be better (tho still bad) if it wasn't possible.
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So what does a typical 4 gate look like these days? I stopped doing it a few months ago because I thought it was a crappy way to play, but I'm kind of interested in mixing it into my used strats while laddering. Sry if his is off topic (?)
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Protoss A goes 10 gate, gets 1 gas, cyber, and constantly CBs his gateway tech. He gets out 1 zealot, 1 stalker, and picks off Protoss B's sentry if he didn't open zealot stalker also. He cuts probes around 26, puts down 3 more gates, and builds his 26 pylon someplace out of the way. Then he just makes 1 more stalker saves up for when warp gates are done, warps in 4 stalkers at the proxy, and attacks with 6 stalkers and a zealot (some versions get a sentry somewhere along the way to have guardian shield, and warp in 3 stalkers and a zealot). They get to the front, build a proxy pylon, warp in 4 zealots on the ramp/high ground and Protoss B has a total of 5-6 units from his gateways, while Protoss A has 6 stalkers shooting from the bottom, +4 zealots attacking at the top
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couldn't you just forcefield the very bottom of the ramp and have 4+stalkers hold position at the top of the ramp and shoot zealots warping in? Even if he got one or two completely warped in they would be killed in a matter of seconds...
I 4 gated and someone did this to me...they stalled until they got a colossus out and I just died.
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On January 13 2011 10:09 dwightasian wrote:
couldn't you just forcefield the very bottom of the ramp and have 4+stalkers hold position at the top of the ramp and shoot zealots warping in? Even if he got one or two completely warped in they would be killed in a matter of seconds...
I 4 gated and someone did this to me...they stalled until they got a colossus out and I just died.
Well, due to the necessary 4-5 sentries that can easily be sniped from the bottom due to the warping zealots, and if you make 4 stalkers, you might not be able to afford replacement sentries + colossi.
In fact, you won't be able to get the robotic's bay for another minute (if you warp-in 4 stalkers), and if he somehow, just somehow, snipes 1 sentry, that all-important bay is delayed for around 30 seconds.
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On January 13 2011 09:40 Anihc wrote:
This really isn't a "trick" and isn't new, it's actually been discussed before in the multitude of other PvP threads out there.
That being said, you're right and it is the reason why PvP is all about 4 gate vs 4 gate - which again, has been stated in the numerous other PvP threads out there.
I've seen a 3 gate 2 gas build hold off a 4 gate though, but it's definitely really really hard to do so.
For those people saying to get a lot of sentries or get an immortal out fast - that's the surest way to lose - tech too fast or invest too much in sentries and not have enough gateway firepower. An immortal isn't insta-win when half of the 4 gater's army consists of zealots.
The only solid way to winning is to do 4 gate yourself and defend, but getting slightly better eco. This can lead to some stupid mind games - both players can 4 gate and then try to defend, ending up with both players just sitting in their base. Whoever dares to build more probes wins. Or the other way around, risk building too many probes and if your opponent attacks with his 4 gate then you lose.
TL;DR: pvp sucks
I agree with this post completely
btw i saw a bunch of euro PvP reps - dude, europeans play PvP so weird lol!
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You can 2 gate and hold off a 4 gate. The key is in knowing your opponent's warpgate timing and pressuring him early. If you can force a mistake or two, you can do serious damage before he can even do anything because his tech isn't finished. During the time before the tech finishes, most 4-gaters are not prepared to handle anything more than 2 zealots.
If you push with 2 zealots and a probe, you can target a pylon. At home, you should be able to clear your ramp with the second round of units, so that there's no proxy. At that point your opponent is forced to be defensive, you're economically ahead, and you can match his production.
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On January 13 2011 10:46 wherebugsgo wrote:
You can 2 gate and hold off a 4 gate. The key is in knowing your opponent's warpgate timing and pressuring him early. If you can force a mistake or two, you can do serious damage before he can even do anything because his tech isn't finished. During the time before the tech finishes, most 4-gaters are not prepared to handle anything more than 2 zealots.
If you push with 2 zealots and a probe, you can target a pylon. At home, you should be able to clear your ramp with the second round of units, so that there's no proxy. At that point your opponent is forced to be defensive, you're economically ahead, and you can match his production.
If he doesn't 4 gate, then it's a different story.
However, 2 gate works well in close positions, though, as it'll disrupt his BO.
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On January 13 2011 10:46 wherebugsgo wrote:
You can 2 gate and hold off a 4 gate. The key is in knowing your opponent's warpgate timing and pressuring him early. If you can force a mistake or two, you can do serious damage before he can even do anything because his tech isn't finished. During the time before the tech finishes, most 4-gaters are not prepared to handle anything more than 2 zealots.
If you push with 2 zealots and a probe, you can target a pylon. At home, you should be able to clear your ramp with the second round of units, so that there's no proxy. At that point your opponent is forced to be defensive, you're economically ahead, and you can match his production.
There are many variations of 4 gate, and any decent protoss is going to scout and adapt to their opponent's build. A 4 gate isn't strictly just 1 zealot 6 stalkers at 5:40 (or whenever the timing is). If you scout 2 gate, you adapt and drop your own 2nd gate and get more units to match his. Then you eventually get 2 more gates and you still end up 4 gating.
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EPT
