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On January 16 2011 21:32 PatouPower wrote:
Have you tried to forcefield but block the space right behind it so warping isn't possible? Genius did it in a game this season (I think it was against anypro) and blick stalkers couldn't blink in, even if they had the vision of the base. The things is not to deny the vision (wich is hard to do since you don,t know what your opponent see), but to block the space your opponent can use with your army. So you block your ramp at the top (not at the bottom), rally your army right next to it to avoided being blunk/warped in, and it should do the trick. I would really want to see a replay of it failing.
This is indeed an interesting idea - use forcefield for blocking the ramp and not deny vision but deny warp-in-space.
The problem is though, the standard 4-gate has 1 zealot and 6 stalkers, ready to warp in 4 zealots. Even if you block the ramp, you will have 6 stalkers shooting at your stuff that tries to block the space for the warp in. If you get a sentry and NOT get 4 gates, then you simply won't have 6 stalkers, so you will simply lose the straight-up fight between the ranged units.
The core problem with going 3 gate robo is, that the immortal is actually bad vs zealots. This means, even if you delay the zealot-warp-in and get an immortal out, 4 more zealots will crush through this immortal. You can't really do much kiting with the immortal, it's too slow.
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wow I just tried it and it works so well it's annoying me.
Has anyone tried setting up a cannon at the ramp after double gas (not as a reaction)? (stalkers can't kill pylons fast enough it seems)
If so, is it enough to do anything?
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nvm i just tried it, pylons can be built outside of cannon range and still do the trick, ridiculous.
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i'm pretty sure you can stop it by FFing the top of the ramp....
had it happen to me several times in 2800+ master league pvp's and i did the 4 gate perfectly
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On January 17 2011 03:54 lasershark wrote:
i'm pretty sure you can stop it by FFing the top of the ramp....
had it happen to me several times in 2800+ master league pvp's and i did the 4 gate perfectly
I tried this, but doesn't FFing at the top of the ramp allow you to move your units partially onto the ramp and giving vision to everything above the ramp?
any screenshots to clarify?
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Why we Protoss gotta do this to each other, we all say we hate PvP but we're the ones making it so bad
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On January 19 2011 05:14 Barca wrote:
Why we Protoss gotta do this to each other, we all say we hate PvP but we're the ones making it so bad
Because winning is winning and right now 4 gate is the easiest way to win pvp especially on scrap where it has a wide ramp. I'm not saying you can't win with other builds, I'm just saying this is probably the easiest. I remember Tyler saying he does a defensive pvp build with robo. Sry for no links on this
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There's a lot of talk about how two forcefields are necessary, but I thought I would add this: When going against blink stalker, a perfectly placed forcefield can completely cut off vision from the top of the ramp, and at the same time not allowing stalkers the room necessary to move up to gain vision 0 it has to be perfect though. I do know that if you use a probe to poke around at the forcefield, you can gain vision, even on a perfectly placed forcefield, but stalkers are 100% unable to gain the vision by themselves. I don't know if a zealot can poke around to gain the vision also, but I know for an absolute face that stalkers cannot.
When I get home I'll do some testing.
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I think with a proper concave atop your ramp its never worth it to build even one sentry. Do an economic, defensive 4 gate, and drop a robo off one base. Its the only truly safe build. In theory since gas is the limiting factor on one base you could do 3 gates and a forge and expand fairly early, but im guessing good blink stalker play would do work vs this. Maybe you could construct your base in a way that the cannons protect most or all of your structures.
it would rely on checking for their expansion often with a probe to time your expansion as I dont see whats stopping them from just putting down a nexus when they see you have two well placed cannons.
tldr, sentries suck in this MU early game, dont get them ever early on if you want to win in PvP
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On January 16 2011 21:52 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Warp-in should be removed from game (or nerfor for example to warp-in only fo pylon that power up you gate) because it removes defenders advantage.
In TvT you can defend 3 rax with 2 rax easy simply because it takes 50sec to get on other side of map (attacking with ~6 less units), sometimes even 1 rax if you scout and play good (and opponent attacks early).
Same goes for TvZ or ZvZ, because defenders advantage exists there.
However in PvZ, PvT and PvP protoss always have advantage no matter whether they are attacking or defending, and this advantage completely overrides defenders advantage so you can beat perfect 4gate with only perfect 4game and you as defender wont even have advantage. Its such a stupid gamebreaking skill, it should have been kept for LoV campaign similar to Tech Reactors.
This is not the place for balance discussion, take it elsewhere. It only serves to derail the thread with posts arguing the strength of the Protoss arsenal and not how to use it in its current form. From the Strategy Forum Guidelines:
Also keep in mind:
- Nothing is imba. If you found something imba, it's most likely not. Find a counter.
- This is no place for balance discussion.
- B.net league placements aren't that relevant. Your Platinum spot doesn't mean anything.
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You can easily beat offensive 4 gate with warp-up-ramp pylons with a 3 gate and a delayed robo. Don't miss your forcefield timings, don't let too many units up (thus, allowing your opponent to warp in too many units with the extensive vision they get), and stop at ~5 sentries or once you feel they stopped reinforcing.
Abuse the fact that forcefield lasts longer than the time it takes to warp a sentry in.
When i do this, I come out even or a bit ahead even though I spent lots of gas on sentries. The key is to get the sentries at the last possible second and to judge their army well on what you see. If they transition to robo and you make two more sentries for no reason (you don't see more units or more pylons being made), then of course you will lose.
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FWIW, I ran into David Kim on ladder and asked if they were going to nerf 4 gate in PvP. He said, "We're not sure yet." I do think Protoss players everywhere would be happy if pylons could only warp in downhill rather than uphill. The uphill warp is mainly used for PvP and wouldn't hurt us much, if any, in the other MU's.
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WhiteRa and naniwa both did robo openings vs each other so I assume players have figured out a way to win vs this.
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On January 22 2011 03:04 iamke55 wrote:
WhiteRa and naniwa both did robo openings vs each other so I assume players have figured out a way to win vs this.
Dang you beat me to it. Here's an interesting defence on a hard map to defeat a 4 gate on between Naniwa and WhiteRa: http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4655569/
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The 4 gate can be stopped by a 2 or 3 gate robo build despite this trick...
People somehow think that sentries are made obsolete by the warping on top of the ramp trick, this is totally untrue.
The trick to defend is just to have mostly stalkers, 2 sentries and perhaps 1 zealot. If you have mostly ranged units you can defend the warp in on top of the ramp by ffing the ramp and shooting at everything on top from a distance. If you ff well, cutting off 1 or 2 units, he will have 2 units + 4 warping in on top at most. By keeping your stalkers back he cant use his stalkers on the bottom and you only have to focus at killing his 6 max units on top. With 2 sentries and a couple stalkers that really isn't a problem at all..
Every time he tries to get up you can cut off 1 or 2 units and whittle him down that way till you have a huge defensive advantage.
If he tries to contain you'll have a lead in the colossus war and more gas available so you'll be at advantage as well.
2 gate robo is definately a viable answer to 4 gate. It just takes very good micro and doesn't neccesarily put you ahead alot (if the other expo's instead of pushes for example). That's why the 4 gate could have a very slight nerf but honestly it isn't really needed.
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On January 22 2011 03:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 03:04 iamke55 wrote:
WhiteRa and naniwa both did robo openings vs each other so I assume players have figured out a way to win vs this. Dang you beat me to it. Here's an interesting defence on a hard map to defeat a 4 gate on between Naniwa and WhiteRa: http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4655569/
Ow that daily is horrible by the way. Day 9 can talk for ages about these stupid simple games and then he completely misses the point as well.
In that daily he talks about naniwa vs ra at xel naga.
Naniwa goes blind 2 gate stargate, ra goes robo. Naniwa then wins with a phoenix stalker zealot attack vs ra's zealot stalker sentry. Day9 talks for ages about small things, like if he didn't make this forge here etc etc.. It was just a fucking build order loss, stargate units counter robo units hardcore in small battles (1.2 voidray demolishes colossi and phoenix are great vs immortals) and ra had too many sentries which aboslutely suck vs phoenix. Yet day9 doesn't mention this at all...
Seriously day 9 is the most overrated caster there is, he talks for ages about simple things like he is addressing 5 year olds and then even misses the most obvious stuff.
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On January 13 2011 08:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 08:51 Azide wrote:
what if you FF the middle of the ramp instead of the top or the bottom ? It's definitely possible to prevent this trick with 2 forcefields (1 at top of ramp, 1 at bottom), but it's impossible to have enough sentries to continuously maintain 2 forcefields. As for whether you can use 1 forcefield to both deny the warp in at the top and prevent units at the bottom from getting far enough up to get vision of the high ground, I don't think a forcefield is big enough to cover both spots, but it might be. Seems unlikely, but it's worth testing.
You can do it with just 1 at the top of the ramp, but it has to be perfect. Any units on the ramp underneath will not give vision.
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I have been able to hold this off recently, and people have beaten me with 3 gates when i went for the 4 gate 1 gas.
It is tricky and micro-intensive. The mistake i think is too make too many sentries and not cut probes a bit too put up your gates.
Make 2 sentries. Cut his army in half with a forcefield and with 3 gates you should be able to defeat him. It is also pretty easy to scout, so you can always add a 4th gate when u see a proxy pylon being built.
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On January 22 2011 02:38 kcdc wrote:
FWIW, I ran into David Kim on ladder and asked if they were going to nerf 4 gate in PvP. He said, "We're not sure yet." I do think Protoss players everywhere would be happy if pylons could only warp in downhill rather than uphill. The uphill warp is mainly used for PvP and wouldn't hurt us much, if any, in the other MU's.
A nerf is not needed. We just need some time to figure it all out.
Ow that daily is horrible by the way. Day 9 can talk for ages about these stupid simple games and then he completely misses the point as well.
He is a pretty fun guy, but his analysis is ment for low level players. U won't get better by watching his dailies.
Edit:spelling
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Force Field closer to the top of your ramp.
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I don't think a nerf is needed per se, but if you couldn't warp up a ramp, it would allow for a lot more creativity. Terran can bunker and defend a 4 gate while teching or expanding. Zerg can make spine crawlers and roaches and defend a 4 gate with an expansion. Protoss has to cut probes and mass T1 units to defend a 4 gate. Teching and expanding are out of the question. It'd be nice to have a little more flexibility.
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EPT
