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Would like to know how to deal with marine/banshee/ raven timing push.
Terran scouting and finding that you get both assimilator quick and thinking you go robo will likely do this marine/banshee/raven timing push.
It comes around 11 mins. Now first of all any of you experienced terrans can tell me if the dude who execute it was good or bad... 11 min is is decent or way too slow??
I've been practicing getting HT asap if I still go 2 gate 1 robo, if I scout possible marine/banshee/raven strat I managed to be able to pop 2hts with storm rdy at 10min 15 sec.
Now can any experienced toss player tell me if my ht timing is decent, or way toooooo slow..
Thanks guys.
User was warned for this post
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Post a replay and i could help you.
NO Replay NO Service
Sorry
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around 11min without harrass you should be around 100-110 supply and have all the tech you'll need... I think mostly Zealots and Stalkers with a few HT for feedback/storm should defeat this easily... or alternatively you can just get colossus or whatever.
EDIT: yeah no clue about timing if I don't have a replay, depends on his build and supply count and SCV making and so many other things. If he just makes that off 1 starport and 1 barracks obviously its bad.
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I am very familiar with what you are talking about
It is currently one of the strongest 1 base terran build, but its a very all-in ish style with a very late expansion
1 gate FE on cross positions can sometimes hold this - it is key that you throw up your 4th gate and then your robo and make a good combo of zealot sentry
IMHO, teching to templars CAN be done, but it is too slow (good terran will push before you get it, and do an earlier push)
edit: what i mean is, any other kind of build will roll you (such as a 3rax opening etc. because of your lack of AoE units)
Actually, it is in my opinion that this terran build is a little bit imbalanced, i have seen it roll over many a 2 base toss with just 1 base of units
2 gate robo colossi fares OK vs this build, however you are going to be so behind if your opponent does any other kind of build and defends
And btw, this kind of play is very common at 1400+ levels. afaik, ive seen the odd FE beat it on xpositions.
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Same here.
I played against the 3-1-2 or any banshee raven build make me rage... Cant find a solution ... i tried templar but they will get ghost for 2nd push or snipe them... with banshee before encouter... or get viking to snipe ob.
so... i really dont know... i ask every time and a few people answered me that 2-3 gate robo beat it because the immortal is hard to kill.... i was a bit surprised as... marine melt immortal.. but.. its them that told me that...
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Any pro could tell us the secret way...
Huk, its a call to you !
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On October 01 2010 05:28 BrTarolg wrote:
I am very familiar with what you are talking about
It is currently one of the strongest 1 base terran build, but its a very all-in ish style with a very late expansion
1 gate FE on cross positions can sometimes hold this - it is key that you throw up your 4th gate and then your robo and make a good combo of zealot sentry
IMHO, teching to templars CAN be done, but it is too slow (good terran will push before you get it, and do an earlier push)
edit: what i mean is, any other kind of build will roll you (such as a 3rax opening etc. because of your lack of AoE units)
Actually, it is in my opinion that this terran build is a little bit imbalanced, i have seen it roll over many a 2 base toss with just 1 base of units
2 gate robo colossi fares OK vs this build, however you are going to be so behind if your opponent does any other kind of build and defends
And btw, this kind of play is very common at 1400+ levels. afaik, ive seen the odd FE beat it on xpositions.
So 9 pylon I take probe and scout, find the terran. I see he isn't cheesing me, I do my usual 2 assimilators. Then an experienced terran notice i get 2 assimilator fast and they try this marine/banshee/raven push. My observer comes at 5:57 sec. When I go scout his base I notice he starts doing this marine/banshee/raven (with 2 starports). First starport at 4min 30 sec, second at 5min 08 sec.
So at 6min 30 sec (the time my obs arrive) I face 2 choices.
You say I could forgo going HTS w/ storm and get fast expo? That's what I did and I intended to do my usual collis strat, getting more stalks out instead of zeal coz I was expecting a banshee harass. Instead it was a banshee/marine/raven timing push. Should I have just fast expo, get 4 gates and make more zealot as PDD does nothing vs zeals. The problem with that is PDD fucks my stalkers and the banshees target my stalks. I could retreat but then it means his banshee has open range to take down my EXPO. And like Yoko said, his marines melts my Immo.
So I decide to practice getting HTS with storm asap. Basically I'll try this a couple of games and see how it works. However I wonder what is your strat or how u deal with marine/banshee/raven timing push?
If any good US diamond players knows this marine/banshee/raven timing push pls send me a msg, I would like to practice.
Thanks
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On October 01 2010 05:51 Woozyman wrote:
So 9 pylon I take probe and scout, find the terran. I see he isn't cheesing me, I do my usual 2 assimilators. Then an experienced terran notice i get 2 assimilator fast and they try this marine/banshee/raven push. My observer comes at 5:57 sec. When I go scout his base I notice he starts doing this marine/banshee/raven (with 2 starports). First starport at 4min 30 sec, second at 5min 08 sec.
So at 6min 30 sec (the time my obs arrive) I face 2 choices.
You say I could forgo going HTS w/ storm and get fast expo? That's what I did and I intended to do my usual collis strat, getting more stalks out instead of zeal coz I was expecting a banshee harass. Instead it was a banshee/marine/raven timing push. Should I have just fast expo, get 4 gates and make more zealot as PDD does nothing vs zeals. The problem with that is PDD fucks my stalkers and the banshees target my stalks. I could retreat but then it means his banshee has open range to take down my EXPO. And like Yoko said, his marines melts my Immo.
So I decide to practice getting HTS with storm asap. Basically I'll try this a couple of games and see how it works. However I wonder what is your strat or how u deal with marine/banshee/raven timing push?
If any good US diamond players knows this marine/banshee/raven timing push pls send me a msg, I would like to practice.
Thanks
No, if you were going to expand before this push it needs to be a fast expand, i.e. at about 30 food, far before you would scout this build. If you see 2 starport you need to get 2-3 phoenixes to deal with it, they absolutely destroy banshees and eat PDD charges pretty much instantly, so phoenixes + gateway units deal with this push fairly well. It's still hard to deal with, but not impossible.
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Same for me PM me and we could look at this build us 3. With me or woozy as OB
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On October 01 2010 06:02 Shifft wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 05:51 Woozyman wrote:
So 9 pylon I take probe and scout, find the terran. I see he isn't cheesing me, I do my usual 2 assimilators. Then an experienced terran notice i get 2 assimilator fast and they try this marine/banshee/raven push. My observer comes at 5:57 sec. When I go scout his base I notice he starts doing this marine/banshee/raven (with 2 starports). First starport at 4min 30 sec, second at 5min 08 sec.
So at 6min 30 sec (the time my obs arrive) I face 2 choices.
You say I could forgo going HTS w/ storm and get fast expo? That's what I did and I intended to do my usual collis strat, getting more stalks out instead of zeal coz I was expecting a banshee harass. Instead it was a banshee/marine/raven timing push. Should I have just fast expo, get 4 gates and make more zealot as PDD does nothing vs zeals. The problem with that is PDD fucks my stalkers and the banshees target my stalks. I could retreat but then it means his banshee has open range to take down my EXPO. And like Yoko said, his marines melts my Immo.
So I decide to practice getting HTS with storm asap. Basically I'll try this a couple of games and see how it works. However I wonder what is your strat or how u deal with marine/banshee/raven timing push?
If any good US diamond players knows this marine/banshee/raven timing push pls send me a msg, I would like to practice.
Thanks
No, if you were going to expand before this push it needs to be a fast expand, i.e. at about 30 food, far before you would scout this build. If you see 2 starport you need to get 2-3 phoenixes to deal with it, they absolutely destroy banshees and eat PDD charges pretty much instantly, so phoenixes + gateway units deal with this push fairly well. It's still hard to deal with, but not impossible.
Problem with that is that you need to go stargate. If you go stargate, he get cloak and you're done... The real question is... How do you play vs that build when you go robo first obs first and scout it.
Btw: I already tried Phoenix and its true it melt pdd and banshee but the marine ball under it dont want you do touch these banshees.
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On October 01 2010 05:13 Woozyman wrote:
Would like to know how to deal with marine/banshee/ raven timing push.
Terran scouting and finding that you get both assimilator quick and thinking you go robo will likely do this marine/banshee/raven timing push.
It comes around 11 mins. Now first of all any of you experienced terrans can tell me if the dude who execute it was good or bad... 11 min is is decent or way too slow??
I've been practicing getting HT asap if I still go 2 gate 1 robo, if I scout possible marine/banshee/raven strat I managed to be able to pop 2hts with storm rdy at 10min 15 sec.
Now can any experienced toss player tell me if my ht timing is decent, or way toooooo slow..
Thanks guys.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113479
post a replay please. We can't tell you whether your opponent was good or bad, or what you could have done differently.
Zealots and phoenixes normally work well, pdd isn't good against the phoenix's double laser. But that's shooting in the dark since I don't know what happened in the game.
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1 gate FE would be skipping your second gas, after 1 zealot (during cyber build) and then chronod 1 stalker then you expand asap
After this you have to get the right number of units to hold off a 1 marine 2 marauder (+- SCV) push - if you know hes doing this (i.e you rescout and see the units and techlab) then chrono units out of your first gateway - sometimes get 2 stalkers before expand
Otherwise if hes doing a straight up rine banshee all in (with the early MM push their rinebanshee comes later) then you play as greedy as possible - add 2 more gates and then a robo then a 4th gate
From here the usual is to get the minimum number of units to defend any push he can make with his early marines whilst rushing your colossi. The more greedy you are, the faster you can get your colossi out and the easier you can defend the push
If for some reason he decides to delay, add to 6 gates (this is a key number so you can warp in 6 stalkers to beat the banshee after the battle)
HT is also an option - a unique one in this case because his push is quite weak until both the ravens AND banshees and critical marines come out - usually you don't have this option because any timing push (3rax expand lol) would roll you if you went straight to HT after a FE without colossi
The times ive seen this beaten are when protoss does the smart thing and pulls all his expansion probes to defend. Yeah the probes will melt, but anything to protect your stalkers which you will need to kill off the banshees. The worst is when you kill his whole army but hes got 3 banshees and you got no stalkers
His build is definately an all in because his expansion comes REALLY late and hes going so much tech on one base - however most protosses see this and get lulled into false security because they dont realise how cost efficient and how strong marine/banshee/raven is (plus the fact that too many tosses dont look after their stalkers during the battle and then end up with all ground vs banshee which is a fail)
edit:
If you go phoenixes vs this build, you will lose. Don't do it.
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If you're talking about some variation of iEchoic's 1/1/2, I've been raped while doing it by mass stalkers + obs then getting blink. You can hit just before banshees come out when all the Terran's got are marines from 1 barracks. Just use obs for vision and blink up into his main, bypassing the bunker(s).
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On October 01 2010 06:10 Curu wrote:
If you're talking about some variation of iEchoic's 1/1/2, I've been raped while doing it by mass stalkers + obs then getting blink. You can hit just before banshees come out when all the Terran's got are marines from 1 barracks. Just use obs for vision and blink up into his main, bypassing the bunker(s).
I think terran should have more than just marines from one barracks if protoss has managed to get twilight, blink, robo, obs and rally all that to terrans main
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On October 01 2010 06:15 BrTarolg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:10 Curu wrote:
If you're talking about some variation of iEchoic's 1/1/2, I've been raped while doing it by mass stalkers + obs then getting blink. You can hit just before banshees come out when all the Terran's got are marines from 1 barracks. Just use obs for vision and blink up into his main, bypassing the bunker(s). I think terran should have more than just marines from one barracks if protoss has managed to get twilight, blink, robo, obs and rally all that to terrans main
+1 He would have at least 1 raven and probably 1-2 banshee
Think about it... Twilight + Blink its long. He got the time to do 1-1-1 build around the time you start your 1-1-1 (twilight concil) build...
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Its not an all in build. Just because the expansion is late does not mean a build is all in. The game is not over if you hold off his push. Even if you fight off the mass of marines and Banshee's your army is just as decimated as his, and a good Terran will have expo'd behind the push.
Its also not imbalanced just because a 1 base push can be so effective against a 2 base protoss. Just because you get an expo going does not mean that suddenly you should automatically beat a 1 base opponent. Until your economy really gets rolling at both bases the 1 basing player actually has a unit advantage over you. A protoss who is going a 3 gate robo to expand or even 2 gate robo into expand is expanding slow enough that your advantage has not really materialized when the Terran hits you. All that money you just sank into your eco for long term play is being sunk into units by the one basing player. All you have done is secure a later advantage. If you go back and watch your replay with the income tab open I think you will be suprised by how slowly your income outpaces the 1 basing player.
I think your best bet is one of the 1 base fast expand builds. That way you are getting your expo up so early you will actually be pulling ahead of the slower expo of the Terran by the time his push comes. Just remember you dont have to win right there, even if you lose the expo but save the probes if you drop his army you can pull ahead due to his later expo timing. Just be sure not to skimp on the observer. I generally do iEchoic's 1/1/2 and 3 of the last 5 protoss I have played got no observer, thats a free win for me.
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I do this build sometimes when I pull this matchup (im a random ~1250 diamond player if it matters) and I move out before my second banshee arrives so it can catch up by the time i hit their base. I just checked my last replay where i did this and that happens around 9:30.
At that point i have 1 raven, 2 banshee, 8 marauder 20 marine.
So far I have yet to lose when employing this strategy. If I were the protoss I would just stop making stalkers, FF perfectly, go speedlot, sentry, collosus. Maybe focusing the PDD with sentry would work then you could still use stalkers? It seems very hard to stop.
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mass stalkers w/ blink and 1-2 obs.
with all the tech, his army should be substantially weaker than yours. if he uses pdd then just run away. stalkers with blink micro can easily kill rines. u can get blink out be4 he gets his army ready.
probe scouts and u see 2 refineries so u get stalkers while teching to robo(he could be going for reapers or mm with upgrades), get a ob out at 5 mins at the very slowest. u see him with a factory, which means air(no terran is going to go early tanks or hellions or thors against toss). this gives u 6 mins to get a council and blink.
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On October 01 2010 06:27 Endbringer wrote:
Its not an all in build. Just because the expansion is late does not mean a build is all in. The game is not over if you hold off his push. Even if you fight off the mass of marines and Banshee's your army is just as decimated as his, and a good Terran will have expo'd behind the push.
Its also not imbalanced just because a 1 base push can be so effective against a 2 base protoss. Just because you get an expo going does not mean that suddenly you should automatically beat a 1 base opponent. Until your economy really gets rolling at both bases the 1 basing player actually has a unit advantage over you. A protoss who is going a 3 gate robo to expand or even 2 gate robo into expand is expanding slow enough that your advantage has not really materialized when the Terran hits you. All that money you just sank into your eco for long term play is being sunk into units by the one basing player. All you have done is secure a later advantage. If you go back and watch your replay with the income tab open I think you will be suprised by how slowly your income outpaces the 1 basing player.
I think your best bet is one of the 1 base fast expand builds. That way you are getting your expo up so early you will actually be pulling ahead of the slower expo of the Terran by the time his push comes. Just remember you dont have to win right there, even if you lose the expo but save the probes if you drop his army you can pull ahead due to his later expo timing. Just be sure not to skimp on the observer. I generally do iEchoic's 1/1/2 and 3 of the last 5 protoss I have played got no observer, thats a free win for me.
I understand completely that if I expand, i don't have resource to put in my army as i expanded... I have less units to deal with his banshee/marine/raven timing push. That's why I've been practicing 1 base, 2 gate robo getting hts storm asap. And like I said, I manage to get 2 hts with storm at 10min 15 sec. I'm waiting to get a good terran player who knows that strat to do it again vs me to see if hts storm is a good counter.
Telling me I should 1 gate fast expand isn't really constructive. You're basically telling me to scrap the 2 gate robo play by doing something else... you can't scrap something you've invested in, it's a totally different ball game. It's like if you say do 4 gate blink stalkers or 1 gate 2 stargate phoenix play... it's really irrelevant since doing that means not goign 2 gate robo at all. Now some have suggested 2 gate 1 robo and when u scout starports delay colli and make stargate to get phoenix. That will be my plan B to try if 2gate 1 robo into templar to get HTS storm fails. That is what I call constructive help. You're given me ways to refine a current strat (delay colli to handle banshee/ravens with HT or phoenix), not telling me to do a complete overhaul like a 4 blink stalker strat someone has suggested.
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On October 01 2010 06:40 az2 wrote:
I do this build sometimes when I pull this matchup (im a random ~1250 diamond player if it matters) and I move out before my second banshee arrives so it can catch up by the time i hit their base. I just checked my last replay where i did this and that happens around 9:30.
At that point i have 1 raven, 2 banshee, 8 marauder 20 marine.
So far I have yet to lose when employing this strategy. If I were the protoss I would just stop making stalkers, FF perfectly, go speedlot, sentry, collosus. Maybe focusing the PDD with sentry would work then you could still use stalkers? It seems very hard to stop.
See this is an example of a good post with good insight. He is basically telling me I can do this banshee/marine/raven and hit at 9min 30 sec w/ 2 banshees. Whereas my opponent hit me with 5 banshees, 1 raven, 17 marines at 10min 20 sec.
So if more terrans are willing to post and tell me you've tried banshee/marine/raven and specify u hit at what time and how many banshees then I get a better understanding of timing and how to handle.
That way I can keep analyzing data and see how many HTS i need, corners I need to cut. Or scrap HTS and go phoenix play if after intensive research I conclude HTS storm fails.
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EPT
