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On October 01 2010 05:28 BrTarolg wrote:
I am very familiar with what you are talking about
It is currently one of the strongest 1 base terran build, but its a very all-in ish style with a very late expansion
1 gate FE on cross positions can sometimes hold this - it is key that you throw up your 4th gate and then your robo and make a good combo of zealot sentry
IMHO, teching to templars CAN be done, but it is too slow (good terran will push before you get it, and do an earlier push)
edit: what i mean is, any other kind of build will roll you (such as a 3rax opening etc. because of your lack of AoE units)
Actually, it is in my opinion that this terran build is a little bit imbalanced, i have seen it roll over many a 2 base toss with just 1 base of units
2 gate robo colossi fares OK vs this build, however you are going to be so behind if your opponent does any other kind of build and defends
And btw, this kind of play is very common at 1400+ levels. afaik, ive seen the odd FE beat it on xpositions.
This build is imbalanced. The only way to hold it is go phoenix and have a zealot heavy army and pray they micro badly. You basically have to do it blind though, because by the time you can scout (they open cloak and you FE'd so you basically have to use those first 2 obs to stop the banshees) they're already most of the way to their timing attack. You have to panic a stargate or get one as soon as you see cloak shee, or even earlier.
There's almost no way to know in advance this build is coming, because T can just fake a bio push early on (1 marine 2 marauder is 100% safe vs basically anything P can do). There's no way to get HT out and colossi don't work (banshees focus them and you're done, or banshees ignore them and kill all your stalkers and you're done.)
Let me set the record straight here:
1 banshee is 150/100. 2 stalkers beats 1 banshee for 250/100. 2 marines + 1 banshee is the same cost at 250/100 but beats 2 stalkers. With stim, it's not even close. Now add on the fact that banshees force obs, deny scouting, and contain as well as are almost guaranteed worker kills on a lot of maps. Add on top that T gets a bunch of extra marines because of mules, so even base you're at a lower efficiency army and less money. How can you win? You can't.
But that's ok, it opens up a huge window for 1 gate FE, right? Well lets say you went for 3 gate robo after FE, very safe very standard. Your obs pops about when that first banshee with cloak is in your base. Great, you can't scout him but you can hold the harass to like 3-4 probes. The 2nd banshee comes and you need 2 obs to fight at both bases at once, but you do that and hold the banshees off, they get no probes at all. Now you make a 3rd obs and send it to T's base. It arrives about 40-45 seconds after you send it, so basically since getting the first banshee out, you're waiting like 3 minutes to get scouting info.
Ok, well you've scouted him, see 2 ports and 2-3 rax as well as a large marine army. At this point you throw down a stargate and start massing zealots and getting a couple sentries so you have GS and some FFs. That push comes about a minute later and your first phoenix is just completing. T has used his banshees to basically barrel through your sentry/stalker count and then runs in with tons of marines and stims and kills everything because you have no GS, and FF to prevent kiting. On top of that your 1 phoenix will get focus out in 2 volleys from the marines so good luck cleaning the banshees out in time.
That's pretty much how it goes. I've seen it held, but its ugly and I think if T plays perfectly, especially on a lot of these maps where you can abuse air so easily, it's nearly impossible to hold.
The best part is T needs like 24 workers to do this allin and they can keep on going allin forever because they never need to expand. Just liftoff and land at natural! I saw it in a chinese game that Plexa linked me.
Whether its holdable at all is not so much the issue. The real issue is it kills all but 1 perfectly executed response which isn't a safe build.
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On October 06 2010 21:45 Arcanefrost wrote:
I just get blink stalkers, imo this works better because of timing issues with other counters.
I've thought about it too - problem: you still need robotics for observer AND a twilight council (150/100) then research blink (150/150); this is exactly the same cost as a stargate (150/150) and one phoenix (150/50), only that blink needs forever to be researched (110sec)
although this wouldn't be too bad, the subsequent problem is, that stalkers aren't really cost-effective vs banshees while phoenixes can't be hit by definition; so once most of the marines are dead, phoenixes can clean up the banshees/chase them; other way round: stalkers can NOT clean up banshees, even with blink they will get away easily
EDIT: @floophead: you forgot to mention the PDD which nullifies stalkers and also drastically reduces the effectiveness of phoenixes; watching my replays I realized that I'm probably better off sacrificing 1-2 phoenixes to kill the raven; either he will rebuild (one banshee less and delayed attack) or my stalkers can actually hit stuff
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Hi,
i found a somewhat working solution to deal with this push, but since i am not diamond i can't tell if this works in the higher levels. Once i get the chance to test it against better players i'll post a replay.
I had a friend doing this push (and other pushes depending on the situation) against me several times and here is what i found out:
- Going Stargate early on is very very risky (as stated above). Any decent terran will abuse ur lack of observers. Its a coin flip that might end well ... but i wouldn't take the risk.
- Same goes for twillight concil ... Robo is a must imho
- Every timing push in starcraft has a "expiration time" in other words a timing window where this push is effective and after that window the unit combo will cease to be as effective.
So delaying is key, but i guess everybody knows that ... especially in PvT.
- 4-Gating works as stated by cArn-, but its not like terrans aren't used to 4 gate pushes and no decent terran is fixed on one build only ... in contrast to common believe terrans can adapt and transition into other builds
My goal in this was to find a way to handle this push with the units i would build anyway, since i can not predict what terran is up to if my obs aren't out yet. The PDD is the main problem here and there is a way to deal with it. Since ppl don't like to read a wall of text i'll just sum it up in points.
- Hallu Phoenix can drain the PDD pretty fast, so teching to hallu is worth the money. You normaly have to have at least 2 sentries to deal with early mm aggression so besides the hallu tech there is no harm done to ur unit mix etc. Get them early on so they have enough energy.
- Try to engage this push in open field (nor at ur ramp/natural) and try to force a PDD there. Well placed observers are helpful to spot when the push is coming, if u see them coming, engage asap. If u managed to force a PDD in open field just retreat/kite and the PDD becomes useless.
- If this push hit u at ur natural or close to ur natural (no retreat possible), pay attention to the raven. If it doens't move synchronic to the rest of the terran army, u know it is controlled separately and the PDD will be placed soon. This is a sign for u to spawn the hallu phoenix and engage. 3 Hallu phoenix have worked for me quiet well, 2 hallu phoenix and 1 hallu immortal (tank dmg) will also do the job.
- If ur opponent has shitty PDD placement. With shitty i mean too far ahead of his army, u can shoot the PDD with your sentries. The sentry beam is not a projectile so it isn't blocked and the PPD doesn't have much health. 3 Sentries can take down a PDD i about 1 second.
- Ur inital army won't hold off this push, so keep warping stalkers to reinforce.
- Do not forget the guardian shield if u have enough energy left (very effective vs rines)
- Once u survived the push tech to templars asap, because it pretty much counters everything the terran can build with his current set of unit producing structures.
Storm > MMM and Feedback > banshee, raven, medivac, BCs.
Can someone show me the BO on the Fast Expanding solution? If it is better i would abandon my solution.
Best Regards,
iPoLL
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i am very comfortable expanding at ~27 suply vs T, u can easy transition into any other tech very fast and its not difficult to defend early rushes + when u succeed defending u are in a very nice eco position
as many others i had hard times dealing with this ( marine/raven/banshee ) push, specially when i do FE, but now i feel like its not so hard to stop it
if u see T going for banshees just counter them with phoenixes, for this particular BO (allin marine/banshee/raven) i choose to go FE => few more gates => robo (incase cloak + scout) => stargate if i scout with my obs many banshees, then i just get more gates and produce units while waiting for his push ( he has to push because that build is ALLIN, hes using mules and is on 1base after this push there r hardly any minerals left in his base to harvest )
p.s. keep an eye on ur base for hellion drops and also keep an eye when T moves out
p.s.s dont bother going templars vs this build if u did FE, just trust me on this, stargate is waaay more effective than feedback/storm
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On October 06 2010 22:22 iPoLL wrote:
Hi,
i found a somewhat working solution to deal with this push, but since i am not diamond i can't tell if this works in the higher levels.
I really appreciate your effort, but for me (900 diamond moving up) that's exactly the point - I didn't have many problems until I started to meet 1,3k+ terrans; these players always manage to keep banshees alive (although many of them don't bother microing marines which makes me mad while watching the reps); this is the core problem: once banshees live they can harass the hell out of you while you are trying to get back onto your feet
this is why I'm thinking of abandoning the kcdc FE and go 2 gate stargate always I'm remotely sure there will be 1/1/1 play; banshees MUST die, no matter what - if marines live, fine, you can warp in a couple of stalkers to clean up; but living banshees will put you so far behind, you can basicly gg right there
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Instead of going the long route getting a twilight council after robo and researching blink you can also just get the underused warp prism straight away right after obs and do the trick that was in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155758
since if they go fast banshee they usually just got a bunker of marines at the front and if you 4 warpgate with warp prism to go up the cliff you can get him before he starts massing marines and maybe before pdd energy.
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On October 06 2010 22:51 megamunky wrote:
if you 4 warpgate with warp prism
what you meant to write was "if you go all-in" - because that's what you are doing with 4 warpgate AND robo
it works or at least can work, but I'm not fond of such strategies; there are always ways to defend such stuff and if it catches on, terrans will be prepared
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I'm a 1400 Terran player and this is my primary build against Toss. I rarely lose while using this build. I'd say the key to stopping this marine/banshee/raven attack is to engage far away from your main base. Make the terran player waste the PDD and then fall back. He most likely will not engage without another PDD. By that time, you should have some more units out of your own and higher tech.
If you sit back and wait for the attack vs this build you will lose just about every time.
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On October 06 2010 22:37 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 22:22 iPoLL wrote:
Hi,
i found a somewhat working solution to deal with this push, but since i am not diamond i can't tell if this works in the higher levels. I really appreciate your effort, but for me (900 diamond moving up) that's exactly the point - I didn't have many problems until I started to meet 1,3k+ terrans; these players always manage to keep banshees alive (although many of them don't bother microing marines which makes me mad while watching the reps); this is the core problem: once banshees live they can harass the hell out of you while you are trying to get back onto your feet this is why I'm thinking of abandoning the kcdc FE and go 2 gate stargate always I'm remotely sure there will be 1/1/1 play; banshees MUST die, no matter what - if marines live, fine, you can warp in a couple of stalkers to clean up; but living banshees will put you so far behind, you can basicly gg right there
So this push would work if there is no PDD involved? Haven't tried that one. And wouldn't 2gate starport make u more prone to banshees since u have no ops to detect cloaked units or do u attack them before cloak is out? What the first unit u crunch out of the stargate? A phoenix for scouting i assume?
pls elaborate 
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On October 06 2010 23:11 DannyGlover wrote:
...
If you sit back and wait for the attack vs this build you will lose just about every time.
I also think that never letting them get that far would be the safest option, but i haven't found a timing (except blindly going for 4gate push) window to do so, at at least clues that would make me trigger my attack. If u have some ideas pls do share.
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On October 06 2010 23:18 iPoLL wrote:So this push would work if there is no PDD involved? Haven't tried that one. And wouldn't 2gate starport make u more prone to banshees since u have no ops to detect cloaked units or do u attack them before cloak is out? What the first unit u crunch out of the stargate? A phoenix for scouting i assume? pls elaborate
there was a game of socke vs sarens about a week ago where he opened like that; ironically he DID get cloak-harassed but got an observer out just in time to not get GG-ed out;
the funny thing is: with his fast (chrono-boosted) phoenixes he did A LOT more damage to sarens than sarens could do with cloak; he lifted/killed scvs AND marines all over the place and basicly forced sarens to abandon banshees and go for mech (since he had too few baracks for mmm); long story short, both expanded, socke went for zealot-heavy gateway-composition with immortals and slow-tech to templars, in the subsequent battle he lifted the tanks and cleaned up
I have to re-check timings, but in this build I think it's key to get a robo out immediately after the stargate and go zealot-heavy to be able to afford this gas-wise; then you can capitalize with chrono-boosted phoenixes and key seems to be to also pick up some marines;
what you can do: go for the mineral-line and pick up 1-2 scvs; then go to his baracks and pick up marines that come out; marines are slow, he can't defend both mineral line and baracks-exits effectively at the same time; such a harass wouldn't be possible with 1 gate robo first, since you prolly would have only 1-2 phoenixes barely out when the push comes
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Wow @ a few posts up...do hallucinated Phoenix shots really eat PDD charges? I definitely never even considered that but it might help.
This build is primarily why I've been moving away from 1 gate expand except like cross-map metal or something. Opening with early VRs to expand at like 50 food just seems so much safer with phoenixes readily available and you can eat up soooo much marine health if they're stimming to try and catch your void rays that early bio pushes become a joke to deal with.
Speaking about playing against ~1400-1700 diamond Terrans.
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On October 06 2010 23:18 iPoLL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 22:37 sleepingdog wrote:On October 06 2010 22:22 iPoLL wrote:
Hi,
i found a somewhat working solution to deal with this push, but since i am not diamond i can't tell if this works in the higher levels. I really appreciate your effort, but for me (900 diamond moving up) that's exactly the point - I didn't have many problems until I started to meet 1,3k+ terrans; these players always manage to keep banshees alive (although many of them don't bother microing marines which makes me mad while watching the reps); this is the core problem: once banshees live they can harass the hell out of you while you are trying to get back onto your feet this is why I'm thinking of abandoning the kcdc FE and go 2 gate stargate always I'm remotely sure there will be 1/1/1 play; banshees MUST die, no matter what - if marines live, fine, you can warp in a couple of stalkers to clean up; but living banshees will put you so far behind, you can basicly gg right there So this push would work if there is no PDD involved? Haven't tried that one. And wouldn't 2gate starport make u more prone to banshees since u have no ops to detect cloaked units or do u attack them before cloak is out? What the first unit u crunch out of the stargate? A phoenix for scouting i assume? pls elaborate
Yes, you do not need PDD for this to work. In fact it is MUCH stronger without a raven because ravens are completely retarded. People don't realize that cloak is the same cost AND doesn't take up starport time, OR you could have 2 more banshees instead of that raven. I'd rather have 2 more banshees since a PDD absorbs less stalker hits than 2 more banshees. Think about that one.
Once terrans learn how to be not bad things are only going to get worse for P.
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On October 06 2010 23:32 Shifft wrote:
Wow @ a few posts up...do hallucinated Phoenix shots really eat PDD charges? I definitely never even considered that but it might help.
they definitely do
still I'm not sure if it's worth it; because you WANT to have guardian shield up (better 2 of them) and going stargate + robo means a very gas-intensive tech; hallucination is additional 100/100 and for 150/100 you already get a TC and can aim for charge which owns this composition hard together with force fields
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On October 06 2010 23:35 Floophead_III wrote:
OR you could have 2 more banshees instead of that raven.
I assume you are talking ONLY about gas? because minerals needed are significantly higher, also both have the same buildtime (60 sec)
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On October 06 2010 23:38 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 23:35 Floophead_III wrote:
OR you could have 2 more banshees instead of that raven. I assume you are talking ONLY about gas? because minerals needed are significantly higher, also both have the same buildtime (60 sec)
Gas is your limiter, not minerals. So yes, I'm talking about gas, because it's the only thing that matters unless your build sucks.
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On October 06 2010 23:35 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 23:18 iPoLL wrote:On October 06 2010 22:37 sleepingdog wrote:On October 06 2010 22:22 iPoLL wrote:
Hi,
i found a somewhat working solution to deal with this push, but since i am not diamond i can't tell if this works in the higher levels. I really appreciate your effort, but for me (900 diamond moving up) that's exactly the point - I didn't have many problems until I started to meet 1,3k+ terrans; these players always manage to keep banshees alive (although many of them don't bother microing marines which makes me mad while watching the reps); this is the core problem: once banshees live they can harass the hell out of you while you are trying to get back onto your feet this is why I'm thinking of abandoning the kcdc FE and go 2 gate stargate always I'm remotely sure there will be 1/1/1 play; banshees MUST die, no matter what - if marines live, fine, you can warp in a couple of stalkers to clean up; but living banshees will put you so far behind, you can basicly gg right there So this push would work if there is no PDD involved? Haven't tried that one. And wouldn't 2gate starport make u more prone to banshees since u have no ops to detect cloaked units or do u attack them before cloak is out? What the first unit u crunch out of the stargate? A phoenix for scouting i assume? pls elaborate Yes, you do not need PDD for this to work. In fact it is MUCH stronger without a raven because ravens are completely retarded. People don't realize that cloak is the same cost AND doesn't take up starport time, OR you could have 2 more banshees instead of that raven. I'd rather have 2 more banshees since a PDD absorbs less stalker hits than 2 more banshees. Think about that one. Once terrans learn how to be not bad things are only going to get worse for P.
So its either 2 Banshee + 1 Raven or 2 Banshees + Cloak? If u wait for 2 additional banshees its another 60 seconds so additional 3 - 4 units on the protoss side. Btw i wasn't able to get them in 60 seconds since i ran out if gas. so it was more like 80 seconds, but prolly my T buid just sucks I will try the 4 banshee push tonight, really curious how effective that is and if it is worth the delay.
Also i can't see how 2 Banshee + Cloak is better than 2 Banshee + 1 Raven, given the fact that there prolly is an observer that nullifies the cloak. I would guess they are pretty even. Okay, 2 Banshee + cloak is faster (60 seconds) and u can do it with 1 starport, so less toss units to deal with but also no PDD to tank 20 stalker shots ... and cloak is still worthless against a robo build.
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On October 06 2010 23:31 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 23:18 iPoLL wrote:So this push would work if there is no PDD involved? Haven't tried that one. And wouldn't 2gate starport make u more prone to banshees since u have no ops to detect cloaked units or do u attack them before cloak is out? What the first unit u crunch out of the stargate? A phoenix for scouting i assume? pls elaborate there was a game of socke vs sarens about a week ago where he opened like that; ironically he DID get cloak-harassed but got an observer out just in time to not get GG-ed out; the funny thing is: with his fast (chrono-boosted) phoenixes he did A LOT more damage to sarens than sarens could do with cloak; he lifted/killed scvs AND marines all over the place and basicly forced sarens to abandon banshees and go for mech (since he had too few baracks for mmm); long story short, both expanded, socke went for zealot-heavy gateway-composition with immortals and slow-tech to templars, in the subsequent battle he lifted the tanks and cleaned up I have to re-check timings, but in this build I think it's key to get a robo out immediately after the stargate and go zealot-heavy to be able to afford this gas-wise; then you can capitalize with chrono-boosted phoenixes and key seems to be to also pick up some marines; what you can do: go for the mineral-line and pick up 1-2 scvs; then go to his baracks and pick up marines that come out; marines are slow, he can't defend both mineral line and baracks-exits effectively at the same time; such a harass wouldn't be possible with 1 gate robo first, since you prolly would have only 1-2 phoenixes barely out when the push comes
I just watched the match, socke went 2 gate +stargate +robo off 1 base ... it feels more like an emergency build than an actual stable build if u watch the his other matches in the series. He always goes gate port gate etc. and only adds robo if it is really needed (emergency). Ofc it doesn't mean that it is a bad build, but how do u deal with a simple 3 rax push, given the fact that port + phoenix is pretty expensive gas and time wise, so u won't have enough units to deal with the 3rax. I can see this work on maps with close air distance and far ground distance, but on close ground distance ... i don't know ... Have u tried this out? If so can u post ur results in this thread with a replay? I will do the same.
cheers, ipoll
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On October 01 2010 06:10 Curu wrote:
If you're talking about some variation of iEchoic's 1/1/2, I've been raped while doing it by mass stalkers + obs then getting blink. You can hit just before banshees come out when all the Terran's got are marines from 1 barracks. Just use obs for vision and blink up into his main, bypassing the bunker(s).
the problem with this suggestion is that iEchoics build involves a hellion drop and with your stalkers at your opponents base... yea your going to have A LOT of dead probes
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The build is not all in. If you beat the push the terran does not instantly lose. It doesn't even have to be on 1 base, you can expo behind the push. People need to stop saying every build they lose to is an all-in. A 5 gate protoss opening is all in, if you constantly build units you don't build up the money to expo. Pushes with 5-10 scv's are all in, if you beat it you win. A push with a pile of marines and some banshee's is not all in. If you kill all the marines and the banshee's the terran can expo and transition.
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EPT
