|
On October 07 2010 22:09 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 21:50 Bungle wrote:
Has anyone tried 4 gate robo with fast warp prism drop (4 zeals) into warp? At that point he should mostly still have marines.
I have only run into this build once, when I saw a bunker I assumed some sort of tech, seemed to work quite well.
Just a thought. tried it once, is a very nasty all-in that fails hard when you don't do considerable damage - if he pulls SCVs and manages to kill your warped in forces quickly you are dead also fails miserably when he is preparing for a hellion-drop instead of banshees because hellions are actually quite good vs zealots --> scvs + hellions + marines won't end well for warpprism-warp-in
So are we talking about marines/banshees/raven or marines into hellion drop?
|
On October 07 2010 21:50 Bungle wrote:
Has anyone tried 4 gate robo with fast warp prism drop (4 zeals) into warp? At that point he should mostly still have marines.
I have only run into this build once, when I saw a bunker I assumed some sort of tech, seemed to work quite well.
Just a thought.
I think they just pull scvs and when the push comes you get rolled.
|
On October 07 2010 22:20 Bungle wrote:
So are we talking about marines/banshees/raven or marines into hellion drop?
we are talking about marines/banshees/raven
nevertheless you suggested to go for a fast warp-prism drop; now to be able to do that you have to prepare 4 warpgate AND the warp-prism before you get any scouting information, just by guessing when you see the bunker or see a quick factory;
meaning, if you "think" they are going marines/banshees/raven which turns out to be not the case, you are already committed to warp-prism-warp-in and therefore screwed
I/we should look for builds that don't require any guessing - a good response to this must be tailored around a build that goes quick observer or at the very least quick phoenix for scouting
EDIT: also could be that he goes marines/tanks/air - a 1/1/1-composition is impossible to predict just by seeing the buildings
|
On October 07 2010 18:32 Gnial wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153780I posted a bunch of replays of White-ra facing off against Morrow's 3-1-2 build. Morrow doesn't use ravens, but it should give an idea of what types of compositions, openings, scouting methods, etc. work against this build.
I watched the replays and honestly the last game where whitera won he did a non viable opening.
He went 3 gate robo with 1 obs into expo + 2 more gates. If Morrow scans/scouts and sees 3 gate robo all he has to do is expand and hold it and he's massively ahead. It might've been more viable cause it was sands and expanding is much harder to pull off, but that doesn't make it actually viable.
Also, morrow did the exact same build every time - you don't run across that in ladder, and there's many viable variations.
You can get a raven. You can get cloak. You can open hellion drop. You can open marine drop. You can opt for stim. You can probably even do a timing attack off a 1 rax expand build. Hell, you could put your bunker down like you're going to do a 1 rax FE, fake it, and then do the damn same allin.
White Ra did not demonstrate how to hold it if you go for a 1 gate FE.
I'm not saying anything bad about the players, but those games only explored the tip of the iceberg with regards to this playstyle. There's SO much more to it.
|
On October 07 2010 22:28 sleepingdog wrote:
EDIT: also could be that he goes marines/tanks/air - a 1/1/1-composition is impossible to predict just by seeing the buildings
Tanks vs. P are not as popular after the Patch. I suspect any kind of tech choice that is able to deal with this timing push can easily be tweaked to deal with tanks after you see them.
|
Yeah, I do largely agree that those replays aren't "the answer" to the 3-1-2 build - just trying to generate some ideas. The one thing I really took away from those replays is how a fast expand seems to be extremely effective against the build. Especially if they take the time to get a raven as well - you certainly have enough time to make back your investment + extra from the expansion.
The solution may be more of a positioning solution if anything - try to hold an advanced position on your opponent so that you have space to retreat with your stalkers once the PDDs are put down. You would have to take precautions against banshee harass though.
|
Wow last time I check post it had only 3 pages. I'm glad people keep adding their insights and advices.
First I would like to restate to all not to bother posting: "Oh I beat that shit I went 4 gate". The point of the thread was asking how to adapt given that you went 1 gate, 1 core, got your robo up and scouted the T doing this banshee/rine/raven build at around 6 mins.
I've tried doing more early harass with stalker and it did help. The noober terran delayed their push or transition into something else (ground play or more maurauders, or hell drop).
I've tried quick ht storms and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It really depends on how well the terran can micro. Someone said I should try to force a fight out in the open to make him waste pdd, it's a good advice. It delays their push and by the time I have more hts with storm rdy and starting some collis. Or i'll have good phoenix count and going charge lots. I'll have to try incorporating hallu to see whether ht or phoenix is easier.
As for now I still prefer hts because of the phoenix bug and coz if I go phoenix, the terran will get more maurauders for ground adv (honestly maurauder are so freakin gay so i dont want to go phoenix)
Some people have been saying 1 gate expo before 30 supply, I do this often but I rarely win vs a terran doing rine/raven/banshee timing push. I think that terran strat is to specifically counter fast expo. So if any did win pls post replays, I would love to see how it's possible. However I remain skeptical and will assume the terran was just terribad.
I took note of the warp prism harass, i'll have to try that instead of being on the defensive with ht storms.
Recap:
1)Ht storms works if I turtle right. I'm sure if I face vs higher skilled terrans it would be harder. However I like ht storms coz it give me a good timing window to get collis and gg him.
2)Phoenix play works but u need constant harass, the game will still progress into a fair fight, as oppose to the ht storm I get the timing window for gg.
3)Warp prism harass to try
4) 1gate fast expo, don't believe it works, would appreciate replays.
5) don't tell me to scout earlier 4 korean gate him or cannon push w/e... That's not the point of the thread. I'm not looking for optimal strat, I'm looking for how I can react and adapt from a standard a gate then robo then another gate then go hts? go phoenix? get more gates and sentries since pdd doesn't absord sentries... etc
Hope there's more interesting opinions to come, thanks guys much appreciated!
|
On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help
I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees.
Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees.
|
The optimal build order against 1/1/2 is:
1 gate
Robo -> observer
2 gate -> Zealots + Sentries (only need like 2-3 sentries)
Citadel -> Chargelots
Stargate -> Phoenixes
Expand when you have surplus minerals, tech to templar archives when you have 200 excess gas. You won't need too many phoenixes unless he pumps out Vikings as well.
The scouting probe will confirm that the Terran player is going marines only. The observer will arrive at the Terran's base in time to see the 2 starports so you can throw down a stargate then.
|
On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees.
I know you two have had success. I have not. Now that might be a reflection on how we go about engaging/army mix/skill of opponents/style of 3 1 2. Overall though, I just can't consistently win. I haven't lost EVERY game vs the style, just every game vs players I think are at least reasonably decent.
The issue with FE is that it inherently delays your scouting. simply doing fast banshee harass forces P to have 2 observers on defense at all times, even if you don't get cloak. It's very hard to know if T is going for the timing attack or just playing a standard safe banshee harass into expo or whatever.
|
On October 08 2010 05:08 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees. I know you two have had success. I have not. Now that might be a reflection on how we go about engaging/army mix/skill of opponents/style of 3 1 2. Overall though, I just can't consistently win. I haven't lost EVERY game vs the style, just every game vs players I think are at least reasonably decent. The issue with FE is that it inherently delays your scouting. simply doing fast banshee harass forces P to have 2 observers on defense at all times, even if you don't get cloak. It's very hard to know if T is going for the timing attack or just playing a standard safe banshee harass into expo or whatever.
Have you considered using scouting cues before your observer reaches their base to get your stargate started sooner? The common Terran openers are 3-rax pushes, early expands (1-rax or 2, with or without early pushes), tanks, or starport units. The 3-rax push hits way before you'd need to worry about starting a stargate, and you can scout early expansions and tank builds with a probe. Just send a scouting probe when you feel like you'd need to start a stargate against a banshee build and if it doesn't scout units defending outside the nat (expansion) or get blown up by a tank on the high ground (....tanks), you know he's getting starport units. Whether it's medivacs or banshees/raven, phoenixes will help. Against 1-base MMM, phoenixes will delay charge/storm tech, so it might slow your win, but they shut down drops and a straight push is still defensible. (Also, killing medivacs with phoenixes is really fun.) More often, your observer will reveal that it was banshees + optional raven, in which case the stargate was the optimal transition.
|
On October 08 2010 08:13 kcdc wrote:
Against 1-base MMM, phoenixes will delay charge/storm tech, so it might slow your win, but they shut down drops and a straight push is still defensible.
here I think we have to agree to disagree
if the terran plays defensively and just masses MMM without engaging (!) until a certain point, he will reach a critical mass that can NOT be defended with just gateway-units; critical mass means zealots die so fast that he doesn't have to kite anymore and force-fields lose their purpose unless you just block him out at tight spots like blistering or LT;
in most games I play and reps are see the terran overcommits way too early - but the better terrans I've played against (1,4k+) wait until ~9:30/10:00 when their MMM-ball is quite huge; in a recent game of socke he went FE vs morrow and also went for really fast colossi afterwards and got one out barely at ~9:30 - I think phoenixes will slow your tech down too much to beat mass-MMM
of course, if it works for you, why the hell not? I'm just saying/suggesting: try it out in the unit-tester: take ~24-26 marines together with ~12 marauders and 2-4 medivacs (I'm just making the numbers up right now, I have to re-check my recent reps for the actual numbers) and try to beat it with "just" gateway
EDIT: again for clarification - this is delayed MMM, I'm "NOT" challenging the point that early 3-rax pushes with just MM (without heal!) can be stopped!
|
I was working on a way to beat the rine/banshee/pdd attack, and I found that getting quick storm demolishes it - twilight around 5:30, warp in one templar ASAP, chronoboost the storm research, get a robo, warp in another templar, and you can have two psi storms ready just after the 8:00 mark, plus an observer around the same time to save you from cloak. 8:00 is right around the same time his raven will have 100 energy, but he'll likely delay a minute or two to get more marines and banshees.
The big problem with doing this is that i haven't figured out how to scout properly early on. If he FE instead of banshee you have no way to stop him. Also you only get to spend 150 gas on units pre-robo.
If you want to fight it without doing any goofy build, remember to intercept his army early on the way to your base, so he can't PDD at your choke which is pretty much GG.
|
btw don't use hallucinate vs this, his raven will spot them and his units will automatically target non-hallucinations before hallucinations. I have tested this.
|
On October 08 2010 19:20 Keilah wrote:
btw don't use hallucinate vs this, his raven will spot them and his units will automatically target non-hallucinations before hallucinations. I have tested this.
this is so completely not the point
it's about hallucinated phoenixes eating up the PDD, which is a cool thing because it means, you "may" be able to go for FE + just mass-zealot/stalker/sentry while slow-teching for charge or colossi and nullify the PDD with a couple of hallucinated phoenixes; real phoenixes could be added afterwards, but once the FE is established and the push beaten, I guess you can go for whatever you want anyways
haven't tried it yet though
|
On October 08 2010 19:55 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 19:20 Keilah wrote:
btw don't use hallucinate vs this, his raven will spot them and his units will automatically target non-hallucinations before hallucinations. I have tested this. this is so completely not the point it's about hallucinated phoenixes eating up the PDD, which is a cool thing because it means, you "may" be able to go for FE + just mass-zealot/stalker/sentry while slow-teching for charge or colossi and nullify the PDD with a couple of hallucinated phoenixes; real phoenixes could be added afterwards, but once the FE is established and the push beaten, I guess you can go for whatever you want anyways haven't tried it yet though
oh that's hella clever... 100/100 almost completely counters his 100/225 raven
I like it =]
|
On October 09 2010 00:54 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 19:55 sleepingdog wrote:On October 08 2010 19:20 Keilah wrote:
btw don't use hallucinate vs this, his raven will spot them and his units will automatically target non-hallucinations before hallucinations. I have tested this. this is so completely not the point it's about hallucinated phoenixes eating up the PDD, which is a cool thing because it means, you "may" be able to go for FE + just mass-zealot/stalker/sentry while slow-teching for charge or colossi and nullify the PDD with a couple of hallucinated phoenixes; real phoenixes could be added afterwards, but once the FE is established and the push beaten, I guess you can go for whatever you want anyways haven't tried it yet though oh that's hella clever... 100/100 almost completely counters his 100/225 raven I like it =]
I've thought about this mainly because I tend to overdo the phoenixes against the 2/1/2 with reactor first - in this build the terran gets A LOT of marines which you have to deal with; if you don't have enough gateway-stuff you are doomed because the marines will live; living marines vs living phoenixes is not a good trade;
so maybe just go real heavy on gateway-units and just get hallucination for PDD while establishing the expansion for later phoenixes "might" be better than just throwing down a stargate kinda like a "panic"-reaction
|
Just throwing this out there, but has anyone tried gas stealing with double assimilator to put a stop to this? this will effectively delay ALL teching for terran at the expense of your own gateway, but will pretty much make the timing push unviable due to the delay. Of course this prevents the build entirely rather than countering it, but as they say in medicine, the best treatment for a disease is to prevent it in the first place
|
Hi Guys,
I've been having problems against this build epecially on scrap station. But here is a replay of me beating it. I faced the same guy before and he crushed me but this time it was revenge
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155929.jpg)
I opted for a FE + robo right after my nexus was planted. I noticed he was very marine heavy with my scouting probe and I had a feeling he was doing the hellion drop into banshee (ech's build) so I positioned my stalkers at my mineral lines and sure enough he tried to hellion harass, stomped it pretty hard.
After the hellion harass I assumed 100% he was going to go starport so I put down a stargate and all my assimilators. I feel if he just pushed a minute earlier would have been a different story, I noticed his control was shit at the last battle and good forcefields with last minute phoenixes won me the game.
If he has 2 banshees : 1 phoenix is a good ratio
|
On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155995.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
