EPTPvT dealing marine/banshee/raven timing push - Page 9
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Ascendant13
66 Posts
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pakman
United States57 Posts
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HEhatesusall
Greece76 Posts
Xel naga caverns, PvT, I(as protoss) FE with only 1 gas(adelscot-style).I (think) i went gate-gate-robo. With the opening im having,i have barely enough off 1 gas to make a zealot heavy army+a few stalkers+obs+immortal. I scout double port banshees, get a stargate,chrono some phoenix out and it wasn't even close(opponent was ~1500-1600 terran) http://www.mediafire.com/?z4t6200yjhtfpzl | ||
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Raislin
United States144 Posts
I don't think the second one is very reliable, but I do believe the first option has potential. | ||
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Vz0
Canada378 Posts
Watch sanzenith vs ogs hypderdub on GSL S2 Ro64 Day3A for more info. | ||
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Monk___
United States123 Posts
*13 gate chronoing nexus hard *cybernatics core asap. *keep chronoing nexus *make 1 zeal then 2nd gas. *have scouting probe outside terrans base so you can see if he is attacking. *as soon as cybernatics core is up don't make a stalker make a robo bay asap *then a chronoed stalker as soon as u have the 125 minerals then warp gates. for a sec you will be supply blocked and not able to make a probe, that is ok as the key is a super fast observer. * with observer scout his base, if you see marauder start chroning Immortal. Keep in mind you still are on 1 gate at this time. *Now you see exactly what the terran is doing the game is in your hands. *To counter the rine/banshee strat *citadel of adun with zeal speed upgrade ASAP *1 stargate for phoenixes. then u just pump zeals / phoenixes This owns because the rines never get a chance to shoot the phoenixes with the zealots in their face. The Phoenixes also rape the banshees very fast. *After the initial push slowly tech to templer usually I totally decimate their army and win there but if not a slow tech to storm finishes them off. Note after his first push he probably will change to vikings, if he does quit making phonenixes and beging making stalkers. I'll make sure to save the replay next time I face this, if you can find a terran you want me to play I'll do that to. Feel Free to message me if you have any questions. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
tested it vs the reactor first mass-marine-style that eg. demuslim plays (much more marine-heavy than the tech-lab style, goes slower on banshees); doesn't work because zealots - even with charge and unmicroed marines - die too fast; at the ~11 minute mark T can have 26-28 marines; this is just brutal with stim, in my testing I always needed at least one colossus to win; theory-craft of course, but then again I didn't kite a little bit in the unit-tester, so T could potentially be even stronger when they wait for charge THEN stim and kite; banshees aren't really the problem because either your ground cleans up the marines or other way round - either way you can clean up with phoenixes/stalkers or are dead anyways | ||
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wxwx
527 Posts
assuming you have expansion, go phoenix and mass cannons to defend. | ||
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Monk___
United States123 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 20 2010 17:33 wxwx wrote: from what i learned from GSL matches: assuming you have expansion, go phoenix and mass cannons to defend. I didn't wanna write it earlier because TL-admins don't like QQ....but after this recent GSL-match I'm deeply convinced that it's NOT possible to beat the T-combo in a cost-effective way when it is at its strongest (11 minute mark); protoss is best off bunkering on 2 base (which is possible to establish because banshee/marine consists by definition just of marines early), getting enough phoenixes to kill banshees fast and kill terran by having the better economy: which means you can support a big enough gateway/colossi/phoenix-force @Monk: problem with storm is, it comes "so" late that terran has a window to expand; if he uses this window then you are in a world of kaka because you are forced to move out; I found that you can get at least one colossus out before his attack arrives which will be enough damage to enable your ground to clear up; in low numbers banshees need surprisingly long to kill colossi, so I'd sack the colossus and just do as much damage as I can vs the marines because vs the banshees I'll have the phoenixes ready anyways | ||
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Monk___
United States123 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On October 20 2010 18:21 Monk wrote: Anyways as soon as I happen to face this win or lose I'll let you know how it goes. would appreciate it my experience comes from a loss (tourney) against a 1,7k-ish terran and theory-craft; what I did was basicly: I looked at the unit-counting in my rep and wrote down his units; then I went to the unit-tester and tried a variety of combos that could potentially beat his combo; here I found storm to be very good (of course) also colossi....zealots always lost even with charge, I only won when I individually microed sentries with guardian shield towards the charged zealots; impossible in real matches ofc; then I went to yabot and tried which unit-combos I could "actually" get - and found that storm comes a full minute after his push; if I tech to storm too fast I'd just die against an earlier push like the "polt-style"; if I tech at "normal-speed" the timing will arrive at 10:30-11, which is before I get my first storms ready.....if I play "normal" of course and open with 2 gate robo; obviously it's possible to get storm MUCH faster if you open with TC after 1-2 gate; but getting robo...AND stargate....AND storm I found to be not do-able fast enough; I'd really appreciate reps on your style | ||
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Monk___
United States123 Posts
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
Wouldnt a double gas steal real early on shut this build the fuck down? Seriously, no gas means no harass, late banshees, late ravens no labs or reactors only barracks. Im probably shooting myself in the foot here but i know for sure since i play terran that that doing that would delay the timing harras and timing push by at the very least 2 mins. Any terran who then even tried to go through with that build would be a fool. That build depends on very specific timings. Miss the build order slightly and everything is screwed. Please correct me if Im wrong... | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On October 20 2010 21:24 eu.exodus wrote: okay I know that this is maybe a stupid thing to do but and its something you have to basically do blindly and it would slow down your first gate but uhh... Wouldnt a double gas steal real early on shut this build the fuck down? Seriously, no gas means no harass, late banshees, late ravens no labs or reactors only barracks. Im probably shooting myself in the foot here but i know for sure since i play terran that that doing that would delay the timing harras and timing push by at the very least 2 mins. Any terran who then even tried to go through with that build would be a fool. That build depends on very specific timings. Miss the build order slightly and everything is screwed. Please correct me if Im wrong... lol wtf? That's 150 minerals down the drain, which delays your first gateway. You're basically dead vs everything else. Terran can either push you with scv + marine and win or do a marine expand. You're not going to lose to marine banshee, but you're putting yourself way behind and still going to lose. Also, if terran sees you stealing one gas, he's going to take the other. | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
What would you rather face? Marines only or rine banshee raven? | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
second of all yes....you can die vs mass-marines and that's exactly what you are going to be up to if you delay your gate; he'll just ralley his first marines together with 2 scvs to your base and wait for your first unit to come out of your gateway; gl with that; sorry, no way this could "ever" work On October 20 2010 21:06 Monk wrote: OK I actually found a replay I posted like 2 weeks ago of this strat. Hope this helps. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=159130 will watch it when I get home, very curious to compare the timings and the compositions...if this is the build we are talking about; btw just fyi because I've been throwing random stuff around, THIS is the build I was talking about before, if you are interested and wanna check: http://www.sc2win.com/starcraft-2-replays/tvp-pvt/demuslim-vs-naniwa-1/ obviously naniwas response was very bad, but that's not the point: just wanted to show you the composition I was mentioning that I've had a hard time beating; you may/can replace the medivacs with banshees, doesn't change much though (same gas-cost, minerals don't limit this strat) | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
Tbh imo marine banshee all in isn't all that good cause it's so predictable once you see 2 tech lab starport. There's a replay of nexgenius beating it with pure stalker + 2 collosi without range. Also, as we've seen from gomtv, phoenix + cannons + zealots + good forcefields can beat it. I personally have more problem with the poltprime timing push with raven + 2 banshees + 2 rax marine heavy bio. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Phoenixes are the best way to stop this build. With their dual attack and high attack rate they are hardly effected by the PDD. A phoenix shoots 2 projectiles every 1.11 secs. A stalker shoots 1 projectile every 1.44 secs. Needless to say phoenixes empty and kill the PDD much faster then stalkers. Besides that both the PDD itself and banshee's are light so phoenixes absolutely rock against them and also important they can't be targeted by the banshee's itself. So as long as you kill all marines, you only need to have 1 phoenix left to take care of the banshee's (or just chronoboost one out you had making). I wouldn't really advise cannons against this build, they are notoriously bad against PDD (relatively low rate of fire for their DPS) and are hard to position well. They are also very hard to time as you need to wait 45 seconds for the forge and then 40 for each cannon, scouting afterall is quite hard after they have a raven out... Cannons are also static making it much easier for the terran to choose the perfect spot for PDD, with a mobile army you have a better chance to force him into a bad PDD, ie. retreating and nullifying the PDD. Just throw down a stargate if you see a tech lab starport, against cloaked banshee harass the phoenix is quite useful as well as they can just tail the banshee and scare it back to base. If you followup with colossi you can always keep using the stargate for phoenix. Phoenixes are cost even against vikings so it's really not a bad deal. Obviously a stargate takes 60 seconds and a phoenix chronoboosted takes 30 so you do need to scout in time. In general against terran tech builds are pretty easy to scout though, just pressure with your first zealot and stalker. If they have a bunker or just marines expect some kind of tech build and just get a robo (the robo is good vs any tech build really), a blind stargate against a bunker isn't a bad move either, phoenixes obviously rock vs stargate builds and they are quite decent against tank pushes and hellion drops as well. If they have a fast marauder you can usually be quite confident they aren't going for this raven/banshee push. If they do go for a raven/banshee push with marauders it's much weaker and you can generally hold it off with zealot/sentry/stalker. If you are somehow forced to fight it off without phoenixes you are usually in trouble but if you are a bit better then the terran it's manageable: - use your probes in the fight - try to engage him just a bit earlier then he would have liked, if he doesn't have concussive shell you can often retreat then and fight outside the range of the PDD. - try to focus the PDD with sentries if possible, a few sentries kill it really quickly and this allows your stalkers to be good again. Any terran going a fast marauder severely delays this push though as they need to wait for a extra 50 gas for their stargate and usually can't afford a 2nd refinery as fast either. That should usually give you enough time to still scout it fast enough to get phoenixes in time. A good trick against a fast marauder is just to send one probe up the ramp, it will get shot but if you see it's slowed down (the marauder usually shoots it first as it outranges the marines) you know they have concussive shells and are very unlikely to raven/banshee push you (and if they do it's a crappy build). | ||
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