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Would like to know how to deal with marine/banshee/ raven timing push.
Terran scouting and finding that you get both assimilator quick and thinking you go robo will likely do this marine/banshee/raven timing push.
It comes around 11 mins. Now first of all any of you experienced terrans can tell me if the dude who execute it was good or bad... 11 min is is decent or way too slow??
I've been practicing getting HT asap if I still go 2 gate 1 robo, if I scout possible marine/banshee/raven strat I managed to be able to pop 2hts with storm rdy at 10min 15 sec.
Now can any experienced toss player tell me if my ht timing is decent, or way toooooo slow..
Thanks guys.
User was warned for this post
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Post a replay and i could help you.
NO Replay NO Service
Sorry
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around 11min without harrass you should be around 100-110 supply and have all the tech you'll need... I think mostly Zealots and Stalkers with a few HT for feedback/storm should defeat this easily... or alternatively you can just get colossus or whatever.
EDIT: yeah no clue about timing if I don't have a replay, depends on his build and supply count and SCV making and so many other things. If he just makes that off 1 starport and 1 barracks obviously its bad.
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I am very familiar with what you are talking about
It is currently one of the strongest 1 base terran build, but its a very all-in ish style with a very late expansion
1 gate FE on cross positions can sometimes hold this - it is key that you throw up your 4th gate and then your robo and make a good combo of zealot sentry
IMHO, teching to templars CAN be done, but it is too slow (good terran will push before you get it, and do an earlier push)
edit: what i mean is, any other kind of build will roll you (such as a 3rax opening etc. because of your lack of AoE units)
Actually, it is in my opinion that this terran build is a little bit imbalanced, i have seen it roll over many a 2 base toss with just 1 base of units
2 gate robo colossi fares OK vs this build, however you are going to be so behind if your opponent does any other kind of build and defends
And btw, this kind of play is very common at 1400+ levels. afaik, ive seen the odd FE beat it on xpositions.
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Same here.
I played against the 3-1-2 or any banshee raven build make me rage... Cant find a solution ... i tried templar but they will get ghost for 2nd push or snipe them... with banshee before encouter... or get viking to snipe ob.
so... i really dont know... i ask every time and a few people answered me that 2-3 gate robo beat it because the immortal is hard to kill.... i was a bit surprised as... marine melt immortal.. but.. its them that told me that...
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Any pro could tell us the secret way...
Huk, its a call to you !
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On October 01 2010 05:28 BrTarolg wrote:
I am very familiar with what you are talking about
It is currently one of the strongest 1 base terran build, but its a very all-in ish style with a very late expansion
1 gate FE on cross positions can sometimes hold this - it is key that you throw up your 4th gate and then your robo and make a good combo of zealot sentry
IMHO, teching to templars CAN be done, but it is too slow (good terran will push before you get it, and do an earlier push)
edit: what i mean is, any other kind of build will roll you (such as a 3rax opening etc. because of your lack of AoE units)
Actually, it is in my opinion that this terran build is a little bit imbalanced, i have seen it roll over many a 2 base toss with just 1 base of units
2 gate robo colossi fares OK vs this build, however you are going to be so behind if your opponent does any other kind of build and defends
And btw, this kind of play is very common at 1400+ levels. afaik, ive seen the odd FE beat it on xpositions.
So 9 pylon I take probe and scout, find the terran. I see he isn't cheesing me, I do my usual 2 assimilators. Then an experienced terran notice i get 2 assimilator fast and they try this marine/banshee/raven push. My observer comes at 5:57 sec. When I go scout his base I notice he starts doing this marine/banshee/raven (with 2 starports). First starport at 4min 30 sec, second at 5min 08 sec.
So at 6min 30 sec (the time my obs arrive) I face 2 choices.
You say I could forgo going HTS w/ storm and get fast expo? That's what I did and I intended to do my usual collis strat, getting more stalks out instead of zeal coz I was expecting a banshee harass. Instead it was a banshee/marine/raven timing push. Should I have just fast expo, get 4 gates and make more zealot as PDD does nothing vs zeals. The problem with that is PDD fucks my stalkers and the banshees target my stalks. I could retreat but then it means his banshee has open range to take down my EXPO. And like Yoko said, his marines melts my Immo.
So I decide to practice getting HTS with storm asap. Basically I'll try this a couple of games and see how it works. However I wonder what is your strat or how u deal with marine/banshee/raven timing push?
If any good US diamond players knows this marine/banshee/raven timing push pls send me a msg, I would like to practice.
Thanks
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On October 01 2010 05:51 Woozyman wrote:
So 9 pylon I take probe and scout, find the terran. I see he isn't cheesing me, I do my usual 2 assimilators. Then an experienced terran notice i get 2 assimilator fast and they try this marine/banshee/raven push. My observer comes at 5:57 sec. When I go scout his base I notice he starts doing this marine/banshee/raven (with 2 starports). First starport at 4min 30 sec, second at 5min 08 sec.
So at 6min 30 sec (the time my obs arrive) I face 2 choices.
You say I could forgo going HTS w/ storm and get fast expo? That's what I did and I intended to do my usual collis strat, getting more stalks out instead of zeal coz I was expecting a banshee harass. Instead it was a banshee/marine/raven timing push. Should I have just fast expo, get 4 gates and make more zealot as PDD does nothing vs zeals. The problem with that is PDD fucks my stalkers and the banshees target my stalks. I could retreat but then it means his banshee has open range to take down my EXPO. And like Yoko said, his marines melts my Immo.
So I decide to practice getting HTS with storm asap. Basically I'll try this a couple of games and see how it works. However I wonder what is your strat or how u deal with marine/banshee/raven timing push?
If any good US diamond players knows this marine/banshee/raven timing push pls send me a msg, I would like to practice.
Thanks
No, if you were going to expand before this push it needs to be a fast expand, i.e. at about 30 food, far before you would scout this build. If you see 2 starport you need to get 2-3 phoenixes to deal with it, they absolutely destroy banshees and eat PDD charges pretty much instantly, so phoenixes + gateway units deal with this push fairly well. It's still hard to deal with, but not impossible.
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Same for me PM me and we could look at this build us 3. With me or woozy as OB
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On October 01 2010 06:02 Shifft wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 05:51 Woozyman wrote:
So 9 pylon I take probe and scout, find the terran. I see he isn't cheesing me, I do my usual 2 assimilators. Then an experienced terran notice i get 2 assimilator fast and they try this marine/banshee/raven push. My observer comes at 5:57 sec. When I go scout his base I notice he starts doing this marine/banshee/raven (with 2 starports). First starport at 4min 30 sec, second at 5min 08 sec.
So at 6min 30 sec (the time my obs arrive) I face 2 choices.
You say I could forgo going HTS w/ storm and get fast expo? That's what I did and I intended to do my usual collis strat, getting more stalks out instead of zeal coz I was expecting a banshee harass. Instead it was a banshee/marine/raven timing push. Should I have just fast expo, get 4 gates and make more zealot as PDD does nothing vs zeals. The problem with that is PDD fucks my stalkers and the banshees target my stalks. I could retreat but then it means his banshee has open range to take down my EXPO. And like Yoko said, his marines melts my Immo.
So I decide to practice getting HTS with storm asap. Basically I'll try this a couple of games and see how it works. However I wonder what is your strat or how u deal with marine/banshee/raven timing push?
If any good US diamond players knows this marine/banshee/raven timing push pls send me a msg, I would like to practice.
Thanks
No, if you were going to expand before this push it needs to be a fast expand, i.e. at about 30 food, far before you would scout this build. If you see 2 starport you need to get 2-3 phoenixes to deal with it, they absolutely destroy banshees and eat PDD charges pretty much instantly, so phoenixes + gateway units deal with this push fairly well. It's still hard to deal with, but not impossible.
Problem with that is that you need to go stargate. If you go stargate, he get cloak and you're done... The real question is... How do you play vs that build when you go robo first obs first and scout it.
Btw: I already tried Phoenix and its true it melt pdd and banshee but the marine ball under it dont want you do touch these banshees.
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On October 01 2010 05:13 Woozyman wrote:
Would like to know how to deal with marine/banshee/ raven timing push.
Terran scouting and finding that you get both assimilator quick and thinking you go robo will likely do this marine/banshee/raven timing push.
It comes around 11 mins. Now first of all any of you experienced terrans can tell me if the dude who execute it was good or bad... 11 min is is decent or way too slow??
I've been practicing getting HT asap if I still go 2 gate 1 robo, if I scout possible marine/banshee/raven strat I managed to be able to pop 2hts with storm rdy at 10min 15 sec.
Now can any experienced toss player tell me if my ht timing is decent, or way toooooo slow..
Thanks guys.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113479
post a replay please. We can't tell you whether your opponent was good or bad, or what you could have done differently.
Zealots and phoenixes normally work well, pdd isn't good against the phoenix's double laser. But that's shooting in the dark since I don't know what happened in the game.
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1 gate FE would be skipping your second gas, after 1 zealot (during cyber build) and then chronod 1 stalker then you expand asap
After this you have to get the right number of units to hold off a 1 marine 2 marauder (+- SCV) push - if you know hes doing this (i.e you rescout and see the units and techlab) then chrono units out of your first gateway - sometimes get 2 stalkers before expand
Otherwise if hes doing a straight up rine banshee all in (with the early MM push their rinebanshee comes later) then you play as greedy as possible - add 2 more gates and then a robo then a 4th gate
From here the usual is to get the minimum number of units to defend any push he can make with his early marines whilst rushing your colossi. The more greedy you are, the faster you can get your colossi out and the easier you can defend the push
If for some reason he decides to delay, add to 6 gates (this is a key number so you can warp in 6 stalkers to beat the banshee after the battle)
HT is also an option - a unique one in this case because his push is quite weak until both the ravens AND banshees and critical marines come out - usually you don't have this option because any timing push (3rax expand lol) would roll you if you went straight to HT after a FE without colossi
The times ive seen this beaten are when protoss does the smart thing and pulls all his expansion probes to defend. Yeah the probes will melt, but anything to protect your stalkers which you will need to kill off the banshees. The worst is when you kill his whole army but hes got 3 banshees and you got no stalkers
His build is definately an all in because his expansion comes REALLY late and hes going so much tech on one base - however most protosses see this and get lulled into false security because they dont realise how cost efficient and how strong marine/banshee/raven is (plus the fact that too many tosses dont look after their stalkers during the battle and then end up with all ground vs banshee which is a fail)
edit:
If you go phoenixes vs this build, you will lose. Don't do it.
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If you're talking about some variation of iEchoic's 1/1/2, I've been raped while doing it by mass stalkers + obs then getting blink. You can hit just before banshees come out when all the Terran's got are marines from 1 barracks. Just use obs for vision and blink up into his main, bypassing the bunker(s).
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On October 01 2010 06:10 Curu wrote:
If you're talking about some variation of iEchoic's 1/1/2, I've been raped while doing it by mass stalkers + obs then getting blink. You can hit just before banshees come out when all the Terran's got are marines from 1 barracks. Just use obs for vision and blink up into his main, bypassing the bunker(s).
I think terran should have more than just marines from one barracks if protoss has managed to get twilight, blink, robo, obs and rally all that to terrans main
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On October 01 2010 06:15 BrTarolg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:10 Curu wrote:
If you're talking about some variation of iEchoic's 1/1/2, I've been raped while doing it by mass stalkers + obs then getting blink. You can hit just before banshees come out when all the Terran's got are marines from 1 barracks. Just use obs for vision and blink up into his main, bypassing the bunker(s). I think terran should have more than just marines from one barracks if protoss has managed to get twilight, blink, robo, obs and rally all that to terrans main
+1 He would have at least 1 raven and probably 1-2 banshee
Think about it... Twilight + Blink its long. He got the time to do 1-1-1 build around the time you start your 1-1-1 (twilight concil) build...
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Its not an all in build. Just because the expansion is late does not mean a build is all in. The game is not over if you hold off his push. Even if you fight off the mass of marines and Banshee's your army is just as decimated as his, and a good Terran will have expo'd behind the push.
Its also not imbalanced just because a 1 base push can be so effective against a 2 base protoss. Just because you get an expo going does not mean that suddenly you should automatically beat a 1 base opponent. Until your economy really gets rolling at both bases the 1 basing player actually has a unit advantage over you. A protoss who is going a 3 gate robo to expand or even 2 gate robo into expand is expanding slow enough that your advantage has not really materialized when the Terran hits you. All that money you just sank into your eco for long term play is being sunk into units by the one basing player. All you have done is secure a later advantage. If you go back and watch your replay with the income tab open I think you will be suprised by how slowly your income outpaces the 1 basing player.
I think your best bet is one of the 1 base fast expand builds. That way you are getting your expo up so early you will actually be pulling ahead of the slower expo of the Terran by the time his push comes. Just remember you dont have to win right there, even if you lose the expo but save the probes if you drop his army you can pull ahead due to his later expo timing. Just be sure not to skimp on the observer. I generally do iEchoic's 1/1/2 and 3 of the last 5 protoss I have played got no observer, thats a free win for me.
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I do this build sometimes when I pull this matchup (im a random ~1250 diamond player if it matters) and I move out before my second banshee arrives so it can catch up by the time i hit their base. I just checked my last replay where i did this and that happens around 9:30.
At that point i have 1 raven, 2 banshee, 8 marauder 20 marine.
So far I have yet to lose when employing this strategy. If I were the protoss I would just stop making stalkers, FF perfectly, go speedlot, sentry, collosus. Maybe focusing the PDD with sentry would work then you could still use stalkers? It seems very hard to stop.
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mass stalkers w/ blink and 1-2 obs.
with all the tech, his army should be substantially weaker than yours. if he uses pdd then just run away. stalkers with blink micro can easily kill rines. u can get blink out be4 he gets his army ready.
probe scouts and u see 2 refineries so u get stalkers while teching to robo(he could be going for reapers or mm with upgrades), get a ob out at 5 mins at the very slowest. u see him with a factory, which means air(no terran is going to go early tanks or hellions or thors against toss). this gives u 6 mins to get a council and blink.
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On October 01 2010 06:27 Endbringer wrote:
Its not an all in build. Just because the expansion is late does not mean a build is all in. The game is not over if you hold off his push. Even if you fight off the mass of marines and Banshee's your army is just as decimated as his, and a good Terran will have expo'd behind the push.
Its also not imbalanced just because a 1 base push can be so effective against a 2 base protoss. Just because you get an expo going does not mean that suddenly you should automatically beat a 1 base opponent. Until your economy really gets rolling at both bases the 1 basing player actually has a unit advantage over you. A protoss who is going a 3 gate robo to expand or even 2 gate robo into expand is expanding slow enough that your advantage has not really materialized when the Terran hits you. All that money you just sank into your eco for long term play is being sunk into units by the one basing player. All you have done is secure a later advantage. If you go back and watch your replay with the income tab open I think you will be suprised by how slowly your income outpaces the 1 basing player.
I think your best bet is one of the 1 base fast expand builds. That way you are getting your expo up so early you will actually be pulling ahead of the slower expo of the Terran by the time his push comes. Just remember you dont have to win right there, even if you lose the expo but save the probes if you drop his army you can pull ahead due to his later expo timing. Just be sure not to skimp on the observer. I generally do iEchoic's 1/1/2 and 3 of the last 5 protoss I have played got no observer, thats a free win for me.
I understand completely that if I expand, i don't have resource to put in my army as i expanded... I have less units to deal with his banshee/marine/raven timing push. That's why I've been practicing 1 base, 2 gate robo getting hts storm asap. And like I said, I manage to get 2 hts with storm at 10min 15 sec. I'm waiting to get a good terran player who knows that strat to do it again vs me to see if hts storm is a good counter.
Telling me I should 1 gate fast expand isn't really constructive. You're basically telling me to scrap the 2 gate robo play by doing something else... you can't scrap something you've invested in, it's a totally different ball game. It's like if you say do 4 gate blink stalkers or 1 gate 2 stargate phoenix play... it's really irrelevant since doing that means not goign 2 gate robo at all. Now some have suggested 2 gate 1 robo and when u scout starports delay colli and make stargate to get phoenix. That will be my plan B to try if 2gate 1 robo into templar to get HTS storm fails. That is what I call constructive help. You're given me ways to refine a current strat (delay colli to handle banshee/ravens with HT or phoenix), not telling me to do a complete overhaul like a 4 blink stalker strat someone has suggested.
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On October 01 2010 06:40 az2 wrote:
I do this build sometimes when I pull this matchup (im a random ~1250 diamond player if it matters) and I move out before my second banshee arrives so it can catch up by the time i hit their base. I just checked my last replay where i did this and that happens around 9:30.
At that point i have 1 raven, 2 banshee, 8 marauder 20 marine.
So far I have yet to lose when employing this strategy. If I were the protoss I would just stop making stalkers, FF perfectly, go speedlot, sentry, collosus. Maybe focusing the PDD with sentry would work then you could still use stalkers? It seems very hard to stop.
See this is an example of a good post with good insight. He is basically telling me I can do this banshee/marine/raven and hit at 9min 30 sec w/ 2 banshees. Whereas my opponent hit me with 5 banshees, 1 raven, 17 marines at 10min 20 sec.
So if more terrans are willing to post and tell me you've tried banshee/marine/raven and specify u hit at what time and how many banshees then I get a better understanding of timing and how to handle.
That way I can keep analyzing data and see how many HTS i need, corners I need to cut. Or scrap HTS and go phoenix play if after intensive research I conclude HTS storm fails.
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On October 01 2010 06:51 Woozyman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:40 az2 wrote:
I do this build sometimes when I pull this matchup (im a random ~1250 diamond player if it matters) and I move out before my second banshee arrives so it can catch up by the time i hit their base. I just checked my last replay where i did this and that happens around 9:30.
At that point i have 1 raven, 2 banshee, 8 marauder 20 marine.
So far I have yet to lose when employing this strategy. If I were the protoss I would just stop making stalkers, FF perfectly, go speedlot, sentry, collosus. Maybe focusing the PDD with sentry would work then you could still use stalkers? It seems very hard to stop. See this is an example of a good post with good insight. He is basically telling me I can do this banshee/marine/raven and hit at 9min 30 sec w/ 2 banshees. Whereas my opponent hit me with 5 banshees, 1 raven, 17 marines at 10min 20 sec.So if more terrans are willing to post and tell me you've tried banshee/marine/raven and specify u hit at what time and how many banshees then I get a better understanding of timing and how to handle. That way I can keep analyzing data and see how many HTS i need, corners I need to cut. Or scrap HTS and go phoenix play if after intensive research I conclude HTS storm fails.
Oh so it was a 2port 2 techlab o_o maybe you could have mentioned that
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I was replying to the other posters more than your original post, sorry. I understand you don't want to scrap your entire build, that makes sense. Unfortunetly without a replay its hard to give you specific advice about your build. From my limited expirience (mid diamond ) any templar tech is to slow to hold the push. iEchoic's build is designed to hit before you can tech to templar. If you rush it you don't have the units to hold it, even with the storm. I played against a guy who rushed templar tech but he just didn't have the gas for templars, storm tech, observer, and units.
Edit. -I can't give you an exact time because I am not at home at the moment, but from my memory I generally hit at about 10 minutes with 13-17 marines and 5 banshee's. I generally don't get the raven, its awesome but it slows the push.
Double edit all the way!!11 - You should look up iEchoic's post about his build in this forum. There are a bunch of replays attached to it. You could pick up some decent timings from those.
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On October 01 2010 06:09 BrTarolg wrote:
His build is definately an all in because his expansion comes REALLY late
There is a troubling trend in the communtiy of calling things "all-in". A one base timing attack is not all-in. If it was, the terran would bring all his workers to make sure it killed you. It does have a kinda late expansion, which is a small risk if you do NO damage but it's certainly not insurmountable. Of course we don't have a replay so we don't know whether it was all-in or he just didn't have a follow-up planned or what. If the attack is one raven, 2-4 banshees, and stim marines then it is definitely scary but nowhere near all-in.
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Yep 2 tech lab and by the time he pushed with that army at 10min 20 sec he was doing a command center 391hp out of 1500 completed.
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On October 01 2010 06:58 Senorcuidado wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:09 BrTarolg wrote:
His build is definately an all in because his expansion comes REALLY late There is a troubling trend in the communtiy of calling things "all-in". A one base timing attack is not all-in. If it was, the terran would bring all his workers to make sure it killed you. It does have a kinda late expansion, which is a small risk if you do NO damage but it's certainly not insurmountable. Of course we don't have a replay so we don't know whether it was all-in or he just didn't have a follow-up planned or what. If the attack is one raven, 2-4 banshees, and stim marines then it is definitely scary but nowhere near all-in.
Uhm ok let me clarify
If i go 1 gate fast expand after the first stalker and recieve ZERO pressure until his push comes (so i get maximum econ benefit), i will be WAY ahead in econ and my army will be about 30% greater in supply
However, when he does his push, this doesnt matter as i get COMPLETELY crushed if i dont pull probes because of the cost effectiveness of terrans
I estimate that to beat a 20 rine 4 banshee 2 raven push you need at least 50% larger army or smth stupid
If terran add's SCV's, then you can pretty much GG as you will have to pull both main and natural probes to defend this.
I say this is imbalanced because its unfair how even with an econ and army advantage, this push is so strong it will beat armies significantly larger than it due to cost effectiveness (and its not like its immobile and you have to seige up, you have cloaked banshees and stimmed marines)
Ok you wanna see how imbalanced this is? Just did tests
Terran has 25 marines, 5 banshees, 2 ravens (energy for 2pdd) (no cloak on banshee)
Protoss has 12 zealots 18 stalkers 1 sentry (guardian shield)
Thats 2350 minerals 700 gas 47 supply for terran
Thats 3500 minerals 1000 gas 65 supply for protoss
Guess who wins?
Terran
With 3 banshees and 7 marines left
And this doesnt even take into account that if you lose your obs you die to cloak
Now tell me this is balanced
To get protoss to win i had to give him 3900 minerals and 1200 gas totalling 72 supply, 4 stalkers left
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That's a terrible way to test units. You can't just look at cost, there are other factors at work, there is tech, build times etc. Hell 1 banshee will beat 100000 minerals of zealots.
As an aside from that, if the Terran takes the time to get two ravens, 5 banshee's and a bunch of marines you should have a lot more than stalker's zealots and sentries. You could have just about anything you want at that point including a huge eco advantage.
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On October 01 2010 08:58 BrTarolg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:58 Senorcuidado wrote:On October 01 2010 06:09 BrTarolg wrote:
His build is definately an all in because his expansion comes REALLY late There is a troubling trend in the communtiy of calling things "all-in". A one base timing attack is not all-in. If it was, the terran would bring all his workers to make sure it killed you. It does have a kinda late expansion, which is a small risk if you do NO damage but it's certainly not insurmountable. Of course we don't have a replay so we don't know whether it was all-in or he just didn't have a follow-up planned or what. If the attack is one raven, 2-4 banshees, and stim marines then it is definitely scary but nowhere near all-in. Uhm ok let me clarify If i go 1 gate fast expand after the first stalker and recieve ZERO pressure until his push comes (so i get maximum econ benefit), i will be WAY ahead in econ and my army will be about 30% greater in supply However, when he does his push, this doesnt matter as i get COMPLETELY crushed if i dont pull probes because of the cost effectiveness of terrans I estimate that to beat a 20 rine 4 banshee 2 raven push you need at least 50% larger army or smth stupid If terran add's SCV's, then you can pretty much GG as you will have to pull both main and natural probes to defend this. I say this is imbalanced because its unfair how even with an econ and army advantage, this push is so strong it will beat armies significantly larger than it due to cost effectiveness (and its not like its immobile and you have to seige up, you have cloaked banshees and stimmed marines)
Ok you wanna see how imbalanced this is? Just did tests
Terran has 25 marines, 5 banshees, 2 ravens (energy for 2pdd) (no cloak on banshee)
Protoss has 12 zealots 18 stalkers 1 sentry (guardian shield)
Thats 2350 minerals 700 gas 47 supply for terran
Thats 3500 minerals 1000 gas 65 supply for protoss
Guess who wins?
Terran
With 3 banshees and 7 marines left
And this doesnt even take into account that if you lose your obs you die to cloak
Now tell me this is balanced
To get protoss to win i had to give him 3900 minerals and 1200 gas totalling 72 supply, 4 stalkers left
Well that doesn't really make a case for whether or not the Terran is going all-in or not, but regardless...if you can't beat something don't call it imbalanced. Micro and unit composition matters. I also don't know the circumstances of your "test" but going 1a into a high tech army with all t1 isn't exactly conclusive. Besides, add high temps into the mix and then start talking about cost effectiveness. Are colossi op because they roast a million marines? Of course not. It doesnt matter if terran is imba or not. Practice > complaining
I'm not gonna argue balance in this thread. The strategy forum is not the place for balance discussions, that's in the forum guidelines that I linked earlier (that also require help threads to have replays). I was just trying to say that marine banshee is not all-in.
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This is essentially Polt's timing attack he used on scrap station in the GSL. once you scout with your obs you need to drop a stargate pump out some phoenix get a nice mix of everything else and you should be able to hold it off. Phoenix are extremely strong against Terran, taking out banshee's, vikings, picking up tanks. It's amazing that Toss don't use them more.
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if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience.
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Woozy no one can help you without a replay so if you want help post a replay.
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There is a good chance the Banshees kill several probes which puts you behind. You are forced to get stalkers. Stalkers can deal with the Banshee fairly well and scare them off. 2 minutes later you have 20 marines 1 raven and 4 banshees in your base. the defense drone creates time for the marines to rape everything before you can do anything. If the enemy scouts you going HT he throws in a couple ghosts and I look like a complete idiot only killing about 4 of his marines. It feels like it takes a terran a skill of 7 to use this tactic well and the protoss has to be a skill 9.5 to even survive the first push. I don't get how it's possible to stop.
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On October 01 2010 08:58 BrTarolg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:58 Senorcuidado wrote:On October 01 2010 06:09 BrTarolg wrote:
His build is definately an all in because his expansion comes REALLY late There is a troubling trend in the communtiy of calling things "all-in". A one base timing attack is not all-in. If it was, the terran would bring all his workers to make sure it killed you. It does have a kinda late expansion, which is a small risk if you do NO damage but it's certainly not insurmountable. Of course we don't have a replay so we don't know whether it was all-in or he just didn't have a follow-up planned or what. If the attack is one raven, 2-4 banshees, and stim marines then it is definitely scary but nowhere near all-in. Uhm ok let me clarify If i go 1 gate fast expand after the first stalker and recieve ZERO pressure until his push comes (so i get maximum econ benefit), i will be WAY ahead in econ and my army will be about 30% greater in supply However, when he does his push, this doesnt matter as i get COMPLETELY crushed if i dont pull probes because of the cost effectiveness of terrans I estimate that to beat a 20 rine 4 banshee 2 raven push you need at least 50% larger army or smth stupid If terran add's SCV's, then you can pretty much GG as you will have to pull both main and natural probes to defend this. I say this is imbalanced because its unfair how even with an econ and army advantage, this push is so strong it will beat armies significantly larger than it due to cost effectiveness (and its not like its immobile and you have to seige up, you have cloaked banshees and stimmed marines)
Ok you wanna see how imbalanced this is? Just did tests
Terran has 25 marines, 5 banshees, 2 ravens (energy for 2pdd) (no cloak on banshee)
Protoss has 12 zealots 18 stalkers 1 sentry (guardian shield)
Thats 2350 minerals 700 gas 47 supply for terran
Thats 3500 minerals 1000 gas 65 supply for protoss
Guess who wins?
Terran
With 3 banshees and 7 marines left
And this doesnt even take into account that if you lose your obs you die to cloak
Now tell me this is balanced
To get protoss to win i had to give him 3900 minerals and 1200 gas totalling 72 supply, 4 stalkers left
lol u have yur values all wrong....
25 rines = 1250m
5 banshees = 500m 500g
2 ravens = 200m 400g
1950m 900g
2 rax 1tech 1 reactor= 400m 75g
ill assume they have stim = 100m 100g
terran can't support 2 rax w/ reactor pumping out rines while making ravens and banshees
factory costs 150m 100g
2 starports w/ tech = 400m 250g
u need at least 12-14 mins to get this amount out, im not that sure.
if u add cloak, then u add 200m and 200g to the count.
it will also slower his push or weaken his army because it takes too much gas for him to make an army like this.
in the time terran gets this, toss can get 1 or 2 colossus and mass blink stalkers which will kill his army easily.
in yur calculations, toss should have a bigger army because his units are all t1 that don't require tech.
just a side note, i don't think TvP is imba, the only imba is zerg loses against both toss and terran(more against terran than toss).
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well it seems that you guys get only the light version of that built
normal you go for 1/1/1 built...
built asap 3-4 hellions and 1 medivac
then you drop
because you have at least 3 hellion you intant kill worker so
normaly you kill arround 8 or more of them
during that you built tech lab on starport and a 2nd starport with tech lap
1 raven 5 shees and from 2 barracks mass marines ....
the drop works good because your drop goes before the obs is outand scout the the medivac hellion 90% of the time
the only built that work against that is a void ray built with zealots and sentries
zealtoes +guardian shield = dead marines
no marines = no defence
he could built viking
but zealots+guradianshield > marines
and it mess up with the timing of banshees
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I feel like all the people saying this is unstoppable are trying to fight it right outside their natural. You need to fight the push all the way to your base. Use the fact that stalkers can kite. Force him to PDD way before your base, then back off. Stall him basically. If he stims and chases your stalkers, thats a good thing, his rines get caught away from the PDD and banshees and get wiped out by zealots and good FFs. Alternately, you can just continue to back off and make him waste stims. Remember he doesn't have medevac's, so 1 stim is almost 1/5 his army's total HP. You need him to use PDD's and stims well before your base, so that once the push finally gets to you, the marines are all red health and the Ravens have no energy.
Really Protoss should fight ALL pushes like this, but thats a whole different discussion.
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On October 01 2010 12:19 perser84 wrote:
well it seems that you guys get only the light version of that built
normal you go for 1/1/1 built...
built asap 3-4 hellions and 1 medivac
then you drop
because you have at least 3 hellion you intant kill worker so
normaly you kill arround 8 or more of them
during that you built tech lab on starport and a 2nd starport with tech lap
1 raven 5 shees and from 2 barracks mass marines ....
the drop works good because your drop goes before the obs is outand scout the the medivac hellion 90% of the time
the only built that work against that is a void ray built with zealots and sentries
zealtoes +guardian shield = dead marines
no marines = no defence
he could built viking
but zealots+guradianshield > marines
and it mess up with the timing of banshees
This has become extremely popular and any toss that's good has seen it 50x and will be ready to deal with it.
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well true i mean i found out that built 3 weeks ago from a friend thats why there is another good built that crush toss like the shees marine built
i looking forward when it mention here
like i said void+zealots gurdianshield is the best vs terran
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I use a 1/1/2 banshee marine build. The only things it will really lose too is early 4 gate pressure quick void rays can mess it up, and the right mix from the Protoss player. I think the mix has to be zealot, stalker, and phoenix. Too few zealots and the marines are free to kill anything, too few stalkers and the banshee cleans up the ground and will make the phoenix useless and yes there will need to be an observer in there too. I feel its a reverse 4 gate feeling for the Protoss player. A really strong mix where if you make a mistake its over and the build is easy to do. I feel the trick is to not loose the stalker to banshee ratio, what that is I dont know.
I push out with just the first 4 banshees that happens a bit after a scan of the protoss base for more scouting and a bit of harass. I want them to know I have banshee(if they dont all ready know with an observer). After that I make the decision about cloak or and raven based on scouting and unit mix. Tons of stalkers no raven the pdd will run out way to soon and one more banshee is better, no robo is cloak.
HT seem too defensive a unit storm does not do too much to the banshee and with feedback I will just make sure my banshees have no energy. And that lets me send 2-4 banshees on a probe or pylon hunt. Since there will be less units on the map. Cannons are good at first to keep the harassment down but when there are 6 banshees unless there a ton grouped up they will be destroyed.
The only draw back to it is that the expo is slow but most of the time that does not matter.
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On October 01 2010 12:17 Zecias wrote:
u need at least 12-14 mins to get this amount out, im not that sure.
in the time terran gets this, toss can get 1 or 2 colossus and mass blink stalkers which will kill his army easily.
.
lol
Terran, 5 banshee, 1 raven, 25 marines
Protoss 18 stalkers 2 colossi
Terran 2100 minerals 700 gas 42 supply
Protoss 2850 minerals 1300 gas 48 supply
Guess who wins
Replay for the rough BO here (my timing is sloppy by about 10-15 seconds)
Terran actually gets 30 marines by this time, AND an expansion also
Pretty much the push is ready at 10 minutes.
http://www.mediafire.com/?zbze4p61527v1m1
Personally i am sick and tired of this build after so many practise games of it.
edit: on YABOT, if you 14 gate, expand after your FIRST stalker and play SUPER greedy (i.e have almost no army for the majority of the first 8 minutes so you would get completely rolled by any 3 rax)
You can get 2 colossi, 9 stalkers, 9 zealots and 2 sentries in time at 11 minutes
Oh, guess what that loses to.
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Hey,
1450 Diamond EU Protoss here. (if it matters)
Been facing this build like.. 50% of the time, even on blistering sands i see it.
Now some of you say stargate - voidray counters this, and that is true but if he goes cloak your screwed, you cant really afford to get robo & obs while getting stalkers sentry & VR.
Do i think its op? yes, but thats mostly because there isnt a solid "counter" build yet.
some people were talking about blink stalker but i still dont know if thats gona be enough.
Guess im gona try that next time.
Tips to scout this build:
got rines inside a bunker blocking ramp.
has only marines (usually 4-5) at ramp early game.
2 stargate is 100% this build.
If anyone thinks of anything else feel free to share ,but you can be pretty sure there doing this build if they go heavy rines at start.
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wow this yabot thing looks cool. The guy I played against was scarier as he made starport at 4min 30 sec and 2nd starport at 5 min 8 sec. At 10min 20 sec he had 5 banshee, 17 rines and 1 raven.
As for people saying 1/1/2 iechoic hellion drop, I am not worried about that. In fact I love it when terrans do that because it means their banshee/rine/raven timing push is delayed. I do well vs hellion drop, my concern is someone going straight for the timing push.
Well it's the weekend so I'll finally have the chance to play and test out. Hope hts storm asap works fine, I don't mind the phoenix suggestion as it is viable, but if hts storm works as well then yeeehaw!
*** I don't understand why real game time it's 10min 20 sec with 2 banshees 16 rines (btw where's the raven?) but top right timer it's 8min 36 sec!?!?
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I encountered this today and a guy i was talking to who cbf'd lookin at replay just said get observers.
However i versed a Viking, Banshee, Raven where the Viking replaced the marines. He killed my gass probes constantly, i was forced to stick to my base (kulas ravine) and any observer that tried to scout got owned by vikin/ravin
i coulndt keep building observers and stalkers off of one base. Frankly i think its a noob build simple as that and at the moment there is no build to counter. We're forced to get observers as there is no other way of scouting his base due to the jewish rax depot wall they build so a robo is guarenteed.
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I lost a PvT vs. some similar strategy on steppes of war.
My biggest problems vs. this are:- The phoenix bug.
- not being able to spot if the Terran is researching the cloacking device upgrade.
I fent off his marauder push, lost more units than him, but had a small eco advantage. When I spotted the starport, I built a robo, built an obs. Next problem: You can not scout with the obs, because of the possibility that he might harass you with cloaked banshees. So you also don't know if the Terran expands.
I wanted to tech to Colossi anyway, so I did. Problem: the next push came around the 8 to 10 minutes mark. He didn't have 2 banshees, but 4! He didn't have a raven and didn't research cloak.
Although my army, which consisted of zealots, stalkers, one colossi and one observer was as costy as his, he obliterated it.
That is the reason, why before 1.1.1 I usually liked to play 2 or 3 gate, stargate vs. Terrans. I just do that, harass, receive perfect information about my enemie's strategy and transition into fitting counters. Maybe I'll try that again and pay perfect attention to the bug. While I don't have a robo, a forge might secure my base against any cloak play.
edit: Again, the real problem to me is, that you have to play a very precise counter but deal with a lot of ambiguity. You don't know, if he researches cloak. You don't know if he expands. You don't know when he switches entirely to something else.
If I'd know right from the start, that he won't research cloak, I'd just play some 4 or 5 gate high templar tech and totally crush his bio/banshee army.
I'm 1.1k+ random, btw.
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im out of f'ing ideas to counter this, guess im gona try to FE next time. and just go HT or stalkers or somthing. i just have no f'ing idea how to counter this crap.
Every single terran is doing this now, have yet to meet a bio or mech player.
guess this is gona be the new "reaper" stratt except it rapes protoss.
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On October 01 2010 06:26 Yokoblue wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:15 BrTarolg wrote:On October 01 2010 06:10 Curu wrote:
If you're talking about some variation of iEchoic's 1/1/2, I've been raped while doing it by mass stalkers + obs then getting blink. You can hit just before banshees come out when all the Terran's got are marines from 1 barracks. Just use obs for vision and blink up into his main, bypassing the bunker(s). I think terran should have more than just marines from one barracks if protoss has managed to get twilight, blink, robo, obs and rally all that to terrans main +1 He would have at least 1 raven and probably 1-2 banshee Think about it... Twilight + Blink its long. He got the time to do 1-1-1 build around the time you start your 1-1-1 (twilight concil) build...
No, he won't. The build that's a quick Hellion drop followed by 2 Starport Banshees will get hit by blink Stalkers just before the first banshees finish. And the Terran is basically rushing to Banshees so he is relying on pure marines (without stims/shields) and a bunkered choke to hold his base. Use chronoboost on blink/obs and reinforce with proxy pylons, he can't get his Banshees out in time to stop it.
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if you go chargelot + voidray all in, you beat this build...by the time cloak banshee comes to ur base, you just attack him with 2 void rays and charge lots...
if it's base trade, you will win due to u would have void ray vs him having no energy banshee at the end...
also charge lot voidray beats most terran strat unless terran finds it out and bunker heavy at the ramp...1 bunker isn't going to defend this...but 2-3 bunker will 
other thank this.
only down fall of this build is that it is hard to fend off early 3 rax aggression (it's doable but dangerous) and i consider it an all-in and I dislike doing all-ins.
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United States22883 Posts
I'm leaving this open because other people share your concern and there's discussion going on, but if you ever make a crappy OP like that again, I will eat your first born child.
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<- Lurker, made an account just to post on this
So many fail posts here who doesn't know what OP is talking about, anyway..
Having alot of trouble vs my 1600 diamond friend who does this 3-1-2 build, he pretty much perfected his version of it (not hard.. its 1 base) and wins 90% TvP with it at 1600. (originated from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=149215 )
Basically the T constantly produce out of 6 structures on 1 base and win with 1 push because of the cost effectiveness. I've tried just about every build out there and only timed 2VR seem to work (if he scouts and gets vikings ur dead though...). HT is too slow and if he goes cloak ur dead. FE and he would 2raven walkover me. Robo and u cant stop banshees. IMO way to hard to deal with, you need a perfect composition/micro/probe pull, or u lose to either marine or banshee.
You lose about ~4000 army resources more then T by using gateway units when he chooses to push. (wtf...?)
Any other build he does atleast i feel like i have a chance or it was my fault for losing but this build is just &%#@ing op ;D
Maybe somewhat biased simply because i always lose to this :<
Really need a easier way to stop this or semipro people to comment on how to counter this
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I farmed my way to 900 diamond on protoss with banshee/marine+raven with like a 90% win rate.
So far the only time I've lost is when I played kind of badly and the protoss does purely stalker/phoenix build, I played like a moron and didn't base trade while he had 2 bases though so that might be the reason.
Also terrans have a CC ready by the 11th minute mark for most timing pushes, even with 2 starports + 2 barracks(1reactor/1lab) he can get a new expo .
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I am currently at 1300 diamond as protoss and i have to say this build sucks -.-
After u've seen 4-5 marines on the ramp, u can't be for sure that he doesn't go for one port cloaked banshees only for harass. So u have to build a robotics. Lets say u opened with gate, gate, robotics. When your first observer is in his base, u'll problably gonna see the second starport starting to build. So what now?
1. stalker+colossi -> problem: pdd, if u dont have enough stalker bashees will kill u, if u build more stalker u have to delay colossi due to gas lack. he could focus down the colossi with banshees while pdd still has effect or bring some marauders with the next attack.
2. zealot+stalker+pheonix -> by the time u throw down your stargate, the second starport is already building, so when he pushs out u have about 3-4 pheonix. If the terran chooses to, they melt down to marines instantly, u'll end up with luck 2 banshees killed and no pheonix. so what do u do for the next attack? he'll come with 2 or 4 more banshees.
3. HT tech -> again, by the time u scout this build, your twilight c. is problably not even building. u have to invest 500/500 more to have storm without amulet. if he pushs out too early or skips the raven he kicks u, because u skipped so many units for tech.
I am not saying that this build is impossible to beat. If u stick to one base u could defend quite well, but if u do that too long he could expand or resarch cloak and use banshees for harass. If u expand early and he pushs out after the 4. or 6. banshee u probably won't hold your expansion.
In the early game this build is much more cost effective than any protoss build. That is for sure. The only real counter are Ht, which needs a lot of time and resources for tech. Keep in mind that your first tech structure has to be the robotics! But a build cannot be op, it is always a unit. I dont know, in my opinion the banshee has either too much dps or hp, they kill stalker too easy...
If anyone has some replays against good terrans, how to hold this build, that would be great. Or perhaps any terrans could tell us some weakpoints they fear? :D
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I can confirm that timed 2 Void Ray works very well against this build. I was messing around with some Void Ray use vs Terran as opposed to my usual 2 Gate 1 Robo build and I noticed that every time Terran went for Marine/Banshee/Raven they would get destroyed by it.
I haven't used much Void Rays out of boredom, but this Terran build has been destroying my standard build meant to do well against MMM so I think when I send my Stalker to poke their wall I'll build a Starport instead of Robo.
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My banshee/marine push makes use of 2 reactor barracks, void rays are usually an easy kill for me, especially cause their expense means the protoss defense is going to be really gimp.
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i experienced this build earlier today and i was able to stop it initially. what i did was as soon as i spotted the marine / banshee build i put down 2 stargates and pumped out around 5 phoenixes. made mostly zealots, and with some help from my probes i was able to stop the push.
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/4273
don't mind what happens after the first push because i did a couple of stupid things which led to my loss XD
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well that was quite good, but the terran player even didn't get stim in his first push. If he had, your forcefield would have trapped fewer marines outside and your probe defense wouldn't have killed a single marine. Furthermore he didn't micro at all. if he would have, he could have won with the first push.
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On October 03 2010 22:41 Entr0py wrote:
well that was quite good, but the terran player even didn't get stim in his first push. If he had, your forcefield would have trapped fewer marines outside and your probe defense wouldn't have killed a single marine. Furthermore he didn't micro at all. if he would have, he could have won with the first push.
Can't get stim that early with double reactor, also no medivacs. The stim/shields comes after the first assault and when expos are up.
Yeah I played pretty half assed being force field splitted and still pushing on like that, I just got used to a-moving to victory and winning 95% of my games with marine/banshee vs protoss, I just consider it a free win.
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just bumping this because terrans have (apparently/obviously) refined this build and my old "get phoenixes ASAP when you see banshee-play" simply doesn't seem to work anymore
does ANYBODY has nice, possibly pro, replays that show how to play against this when the terran really knows what he is doing? if I survive the initial push I'm usually fine because in (later) midgame I get charge-lots which are pure ownage vs the marines, the marines die way faster than the banshees can kill the zealots; nevertheless I don't seem to be able to stop the initial push with just a few banshees (2-3), one raven and mass-marines; since the army is so marine-heavy phoenixes aren't very effective, zealots in low numbers without charge are bad vs marine/banshee in general, and stalkers fail vs the "wtf you can't hit me, stupid" PDD; no imbalance QQ here, serious advice appreciated
EDIT: maybe open with phoenix when "assuming" a 1/1/1 by default instead of robo? because then I would have the possibility to harass raven/banshees really early and at least keep T on his toes to protect both scv's and production facilities
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The terran will know what build you're doing(or hiding) by the ol' flying factory.
They'll see if you are delaying robo in favor of council/stargate.
As for the actual strat to counter em, beats me.
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I've recently played a P that went for a very quick stalker poke, trading stalkers for marines at my wall and then followed up with Phoenixes which arrived at around the time my first raven popped. So I had Phoenixes lingering around my ecoline and trying to snipe my air units that I had to chase down with lower than normal marine numbers (without stim, so he could've kited me all day long). I could not move out and subsequently failed to transition properly and lost the game in the long run.
So, YMMV, but P going Phoenix shut down my Marine/Raven/Banshee build
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The terran has a vulnerable spot at the 7 minute mark or so, this is when the starports are just readied and the reactor was finished.
If you can somehow beat 8 marines in 2 bunkers in what forces you could get at 7 mins you might beat him.
After that the banshees will come non-stop from 2 starports every 40 seconds and the reactor rax will also go non-stop. A full saturated main will support 2 port banshee and 2 reactor barracks and supply depots all the way.
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On October 06 2010 18:53 Lightspeed wrote:
I've recently played a P that went for a very quick stalker poke, trading stalkers for marines at my wall
tried this but I always fail hard vs bunker - my opponents usually fly the rax back and put a bunker in the middle...scv's for repair are easily pulled and one bunker full of marines is enough to repel any early poking
of course if he just "tried" to harass me instead...then I could easily go for a trade-off...but most terrans aren't that stupid nowadays, sadly
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I rarely do the marine/banshee build anymore because most 1900+ diamond toss players already know how to spot this and properly counter it with their fast expansion builds.
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On October 06 2010 19:14 link0 wrote:
I rarely do the marine/banshee build anymore because most 1900+ diamond toss players already know how to spot this and properly counter it with their fast expansion builds.
replays? BOs? unit-compositions? techs? etc.?
really no offense since you are obviously a much better player than me, but such posts are so redundant and not helpful at all - it's basicly a "l2p, you are losing against a build that can easily be beaten if you are good enough and know how"
yeah, I'm able to spot this too: but the build that has worked for me in the past doesn't anymore (1 gate robo, chrono observer and build starport asap when I see banshee-bo) and I'd really appreciate advice on how to play against it;
because at least in the kcdc thread it's common believe that marine/banshee/PDD is one of the best responses to a protoss-FE in general since it hits exactly when the P is still stuck without useful tech, so I'd like to know which "fast expansion build" could be so superior to marine/banshee/raven
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wouldn't FE'ing mean he doesn't have much of an army and your marines can make a good push? just wondering because i've never attempted to FE against T.
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P going Phoenix shut down my Marine/Raven/Banshee build
yeah it does, but only if u build starport bevor robo, which is quite risky, if it is not exactly this build. And even if u have pheonixs, it leaves u vulnerable to cloaked banshees. if the terran somehow manages to get a cloaked banshee in your base, its pretty gg.
If i now see a bunker with marines, i try to deny scout and go for 4 gate asap. Attack with two forcefields, blocking repair scvs. U can also go for robotics + 3-4 gate and go for warpprism. Terrans tend to feel a false safety behind their wall-in. Load 4 units->go in->warp in 3-4 units->chronoboost your gates. attack with your warped-in units, and try to drop zealots on top of or at least near marines.If he goes for raven first and your timing is right, he'll loose. But again, if it es not this build, your screwed. Works sometimes, sometimes not....
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1-1-1 is so weak against voidray rush or any rush.
put early warpgate pressure on. bio is extremely weak before stimpack.
if he's got a bunker on his ramp - DO NOT LOSE UNITS IN A FAILED BUST ATTEMPT, just keep patient at the bottom of his ramp with forcefield ready and he'll be forced to use drops/siege tank. your concave will annihilate his force as he clusters on ramp.
my point is that you can try to bypass the marine/raven/banshee push all-together by forcing him to switch up.
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On October 06 2010 19:42 hoovehand wrote:
1-1-1 is so weak against voidray rush or any rush.
put early warpgate pressure on. bio is extremely weak before stimpack.
if he's got a bunker on his ramp - DO NOT LOSE UNITS IN A FAILED BUST ATTEMPT, just keep patient at the bottom of his ramp with forcefield ready and he'll be forced to use drops/siege tank. your concave will annihilate his force as he clusters on ramp.
my point is that you can try to bypass the marine/raven/banshee push all-together by forcing him to switch up.
The terran uses 2 reactor barracks with marine/banshee, not exactly weak vs rays.
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On October 06 2010 19:14 link0 wrote:
I rarely do the marine/banshee build anymore because most 1900+ diamond toss players already know how to spot this and properly counter it with their fast expansion builds.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-150724.jpg)
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My fellow terran friend did this push against me in a few friendly practice matches. I was stumped the first time so i asked him to repeat it. After a few tries i found out what worked for me to stop this rather unorthodox timing push.
I mainly played standard and tried to tech up HTs for feedback. If you feel safe an FE is not a bad idea. If you feedback both ravens and banshees he's already in a bad spot. Try containing him early on. That way he needs to throw the PDD in the first encounter and you can just back away from its range and wait for him or pull back home to let your HT tech get done if its not already up.
I can not really give you any specific buildorder but the answer for me was a strong ammount of units and a few Hts to deny PPD and hopefully slaughter both banshees. If you are lucky the raven will go down from feedback too .
This is quite risky if you do not know when he's pushing for you because if he gets that PDD out before you feedback you need to back away from it and hope your bread and butter units will hold.
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@madison
we're discussing the marine / banshee / raven timing push where in the T gets a reactor and 2 starports and just pumps out marines and banshees.
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On October 06 2010 20:13 Pobbes wrote:
@madison
we're discussing the marine / banshee / raven timing push where in the T gets a reactor and 2 starports and just pumps out marines and banshees.
i dont even know how t respond to this... my composition in that game is pure marine banshee raven save for my early rauders.
anyways in response to OP. there isnt a sure fire build to counter marine banshee play. but generally speaking the toss who give me the most trouble transition into phoenix play to either completely shut down my banshees or delay me from making the push.
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yes, but you seem to forgot the key words "timing push."
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On October 06 2010 20:40 MadisonStreet wrote:
anyways in response to OP. there isnt a sure fire build to counter marine banshee play. but generally speaking the toss who give me the most trouble transition into phoenix play to either completely shut down my banshees or delay me from making the push.
according to your timings/transitions would you say that stargate before robo is essential to get enough phoenixes out to delay/deny the first push?
because currently I'm not sure how to structure my build...meaning whether I just have to get better at macro and transition immediately into phoenixes after the observer sees what's going on or whether I should throw down a stargate before robo (mostly it would be a 2 gate into stargate into robo to be safe against hellion drops which are also really common in 1/1/1 and cloak)
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Hello, long time lurker
Can't really help P since i am T and still kinda bad.
Just wanted to note that Demuslim used such a build in this weeks round of EPS Germany against naniwa. And it really seems pretty strong. Naniwa (currently #8 in EU ladder) had a really hard time defending it.
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This build can't hold 4gate, so... FE builds also do very good against it as you'll have way too much stalkers off 2 base for his army to handle.
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it can hold a 4 gate if you know its coming intead 1 bunker with marines you need a 2nd and as long its not a map with rocks behind your base like blistering sands you can make that shee /marien raven built
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On October 06 2010 21:04 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 20:40 MadisonStreet wrote:
anyways in response to OP. there isnt a sure fire build to counter marine banshee play. but generally speaking the toss who give me the most trouble transition into phoenix play to either completely shut down my banshees or delay me from making the push. according to your timings/transitions would you say that stargate before robo is essential to get enough phoenixes out to delay/deny the first push? because currently I'm not sure how to structure my build...meaning whether I just have to get better at macro and transition immediately into phoenixes after the observer sees what's going on or whether I should throw down a stargate before robo (mostly it would be a 2 gate into stargate into robo to be safe against hellion drops which are also really common in 1/1/1 and cloak)
No - you dont need stargate before robo to counter 2 port banshees. And your setting yourself up for failure by structuring your build around what your opponent could "potentially" be doing.
Your fine w/ a 2 gate into robo standard build. What i mean to say is if your opponent is massing banshees and continues to do so getting an early port either before robo bay or quickly after will FORCE him to concede map control to you until he has an adequate counter to phoenix's or force him to immediately engage.
Note that in an early starport build or 1 base phoenix sniping the raven before it has enough energy for said push and while marines lack stim to properly defend phoenix play is an option.
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The PoltPrime one at ~5-6 min with just 1 banshee 1 raven and a few marines and marauders does seem way scarier xX
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On October 06 2010 21:11 MadisonStreet wrote:
Note that in an early starport build or 1 base phoenix sniping the raven before it has enough energy for said push and while marines lack stim to properly defend phoenix play is an option.
thanks, I really haven't thought about the timing of stim before (I should really do more off-racing....) - it seems like I'm too scared to harass the air-units properly because normally stim is done; but that's not possible with reactor-play obviously
transition-wise would you say colossi are superior to chargelots? because later on a chargelot/HT/sentry/phoenix combo is definitely awsome, but I'm not sure if I can get there without colossi; am I correct to assume that it depends whether or not there was any major engagement with unit-trade, meaning that I'm safe to go faster chargelots if we both have lost huge parts of our armies already?
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Like I said dont be so composition focused. Every unit can work in a given situation. Against starport play - collosus are next to useless im not going to engage in a fight with marines and banshees. Im going to chip at your collosus and then stim in.
So I'd say try to transition into templar after your initial 2 - 3 collosus. Dont expect to win with your gate way blob + colloxen
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I just get blink stalkers, imo this works better because of timing issues with other counters.
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Blink is an excellent skill to have, but don't you sacrifice too much gas for it so early?
7banshee/raven and buildings + addons gives you 1300+ gas at 11 mins.
robo/council, 2 observers, blink costs 550, leaving you with 750 gas for sentries/stalkers.
2 sentries and 11 stalkers don't stand a chance against PDD + 7 banshees with 3 SCVs, and the 35 marines along with em causes trouble.
Phoenix seemed to be the best defense I've encountered with it, they hit banshees for a ton. The thing here is that the push will always be a win for the terran or you both lose heavily, and you both expand and adjust, though the terran will have the advantage since The CC was being built midway and it will land as an orbital command with a big headstart.
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On October 01 2010 05:28 BrTarolg wrote:
I am very familiar with what you are talking about
It is currently one of the strongest 1 base terran build, but its a very all-in ish style with a very late expansion
1 gate FE on cross positions can sometimes hold this - it is key that you throw up your 4th gate and then your robo and make a good combo of zealot sentry
IMHO, teching to templars CAN be done, but it is too slow (good terran will push before you get it, and do an earlier push)
edit: what i mean is, any other kind of build will roll you (such as a 3rax opening etc. because of your lack of AoE units)
Actually, it is in my opinion that this terran build is a little bit imbalanced, i have seen it roll over many a 2 base toss with just 1 base of units
2 gate robo colossi fares OK vs this build, however you are going to be so behind if your opponent does any other kind of build and defends
And btw, this kind of play is very common at 1400+ levels. afaik, ive seen the odd FE beat it on xpositions.
This build is imbalanced. The only way to hold it is go phoenix and have a zealot heavy army and pray they micro badly. You basically have to do it blind though, because by the time you can scout (they open cloak and you FE'd so you basically have to use those first 2 obs to stop the banshees) they're already most of the way to their timing attack. You have to panic a stargate or get one as soon as you see cloak shee, or even earlier.
There's almost no way to know in advance this build is coming, because T can just fake a bio push early on (1 marine 2 marauder is 100% safe vs basically anything P can do). There's no way to get HT out and colossi don't work (banshees focus them and you're done, or banshees ignore them and kill all your stalkers and you're done.)
Let me set the record straight here:
1 banshee is 150/100. 2 stalkers beats 1 banshee for 250/100. 2 marines + 1 banshee is the same cost at 250/100 but beats 2 stalkers. With stim, it's not even close. Now add on the fact that banshees force obs, deny scouting, and contain as well as are almost guaranteed worker kills on a lot of maps. Add on top that T gets a bunch of extra marines because of mules, so even base you're at a lower efficiency army and less money. How can you win? You can't.
But that's ok, it opens up a huge window for 1 gate FE, right? Well lets say you went for 3 gate robo after FE, very safe very standard. Your obs pops about when that first banshee with cloak is in your base. Great, you can't scout him but you can hold the harass to like 3-4 probes. The 2nd banshee comes and you need 2 obs to fight at both bases at once, but you do that and hold the banshees off, they get no probes at all. Now you make a 3rd obs and send it to T's base. It arrives about 40-45 seconds after you send it, so basically since getting the first banshee out, you're waiting like 3 minutes to get scouting info.
Ok, well you've scouted him, see 2 ports and 2-3 rax as well as a large marine army. At this point you throw down a stargate and start massing zealots and getting a couple sentries so you have GS and some FFs. That push comes about a minute later and your first phoenix is just completing. T has used his banshees to basically barrel through your sentry/stalker count and then runs in with tons of marines and stims and kills everything because you have no GS, and FF to prevent kiting. On top of that your 1 phoenix will get focus out in 2 volleys from the marines so good luck cleaning the banshees out in time.
That's pretty much how it goes. I've seen it held, but its ugly and I think if T plays perfectly, especially on a lot of these maps where you can abuse air so easily, it's nearly impossible to hold.
The best part is T needs like 24 workers to do this allin and they can keep on going allin forever because they never need to expand. Just liftoff and land at natural! I saw it in a chinese game that Plexa linked me.
Whether its holdable at all is not so much the issue. The real issue is it kills all but 1 perfectly executed response which isn't a safe build.
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On October 06 2010 21:45 Arcanefrost wrote:
I just get blink stalkers, imo this works better because of timing issues with other counters.
I've thought about it too - problem: you still need robotics for observer AND a twilight council (150/100) then research blink (150/150); this is exactly the same cost as a stargate (150/150) and one phoenix (150/50), only that blink needs forever to be researched (110sec)
although this wouldn't be too bad, the subsequent problem is, that stalkers aren't really cost-effective vs banshees while phoenixes can't be hit by definition; so once most of the marines are dead, phoenixes can clean up the banshees/chase them; other way round: stalkers can NOT clean up banshees, even with blink they will get away easily
EDIT: @floophead: you forgot to mention the PDD which nullifies stalkers and also drastically reduces the effectiveness of phoenixes; watching my replays I realized that I'm probably better off sacrificing 1-2 phoenixes to kill the raven; either he will rebuild (one banshee less and delayed attack) or my stalkers can actually hit stuff
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Hi,
i found a somewhat working solution to deal with this push, but since i am not diamond i can't tell if this works in the higher levels. Once i get the chance to test it against better players i'll post a replay.
I had a friend doing this push (and other pushes depending on the situation) against me several times and here is what i found out:
- Going Stargate early on is very very risky (as stated above). Any decent terran will abuse ur lack of observers. Its a coin flip that might end well ... but i wouldn't take the risk.
- Same goes for twillight concil ... Robo is a must imho
- Every timing push in starcraft has a "expiration time" in other words a timing window where this push is effective and after that window the unit combo will cease to be as effective.
So delaying is key, but i guess everybody knows that ... especially in PvT.
- 4-Gating works as stated by cArn-, but its not like terrans aren't used to 4 gate pushes and no decent terran is fixed on one build only ... in contrast to common believe terrans can adapt and transition into other builds
My goal in this was to find a way to handle this push with the units i would build anyway, since i can not predict what terran is up to if my obs aren't out yet. The PDD is the main problem here and there is a way to deal with it. Since ppl don't like to read a wall of text i'll just sum it up in points.
- Hallu Phoenix can drain the PDD pretty fast, so teching to hallu is worth the money. You normaly have to have at least 2 sentries to deal with early mm aggression so besides the hallu tech there is no harm done to ur unit mix etc. Get them early on so they have enough energy.
- Try to engage this push in open field (nor at ur ramp/natural) and try to force a PDD there. Well placed observers are helpful to spot when the push is coming, if u see them coming, engage asap. If u managed to force a PDD in open field just retreat/kite and the PDD becomes useless.
- If this push hit u at ur natural or close to ur natural (no retreat possible), pay attention to the raven. If it doens't move synchronic to the rest of the terran army, u know it is controlled separately and the PDD will be placed soon. This is a sign for u to spawn the hallu phoenix and engage. 3 Hallu phoenix have worked for me quiet well, 2 hallu phoenix and 1 hallu immortal (tank dmg) will also do the job.
- If ur opponent has shitty PDD placement. With shitty i mean too far ahead of his army, u can shoot the PDD with your sentries. The sentry beam is not a projectile so it isn't blocked and the PPD doesn't have much health. 3 Sentries can take down a PDD i about 1 second.
- Ur inital army won't hold off this push, so keep warping stalkers to reinforce.
- Do not forget the guardian shield if u have enough energy left (very effective vs rines)
- Once u survived the push tech to templars asap, because it pretty much counters everything the terran can build with his current set of unit producing structures.
Storm > MMM and Feedback > banshee, raven, medivac, BCs.
Can someone show me the BO on the Fast Expanding solution? If it is better i would abandon my solution.
Best Regards,
iPoLL
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i am very comfortable expanding at ~27 suply vs T, u can easy transition into any other tech very fast and its not difficult to defend early rushes + when u succeed defending u are in a very nice eco position
as many others i had hard times dealing with this ( marine/raven/banshee ) push, specially when i do FE, but now i feel like its not so hard to stop it
if u see T going for banshees just counter them with phoenixes, for this particular BO (allin marine/banshee/raven) i choose to go FE => few more gates => robo (incase cloak + scout) => stargate if i scout with my obs many banshees, then i just get more gates and produce units while waiting for his push ( he has to push because that build is ALLIN, hes using mules and is on 1base after this push there r hardly any minerals left in his base to harvest )
p.s. keep an eye on ur base for hellion drops and also keep an eye when T moves out
p.s.s dont bother going templars vs this build if u did FE, just trust me on this, stargate is waaay more effective than feedback/storm
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On October 06 2010 22:22 iPoLL wrote:
Hi,
i found a somewhat working solution to deal with this push, but since i am not diamond i can't tell if this works in the higher levels.
I really appreciate your effort, but for me (900 diamond moving up) that's exactly the point - I didn't have many problems until I started to meet 1,3k+ terrans; these players always manage to keep banshees alive (although many of them don't bother microing marines which makes me mad while watching the reps); this is the core problem: once banshees live they can harass the hell out of you while you are trying to get back onto your feet
this is why I'm thinking of abandoning the kcdc FE and go 2 gate stargate always I'm remotely sure there will be 1/1/1 play; banshees MUST die, no matter what - if marines live, fine, you can warp in a couple of stalkers to clean up; but living banshees will put you so far behind, you can basicly gg right there
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Instead of going the long route getting a twilight council after robo and researching blink you can also just get the underused warp prism straight away right after obs and do the trick that was in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155758
since if they go fast banshee they usually just got a bunker of marines at the front and if you 4 warpgate with warp prism to go up the cliff you can get him before he starts massing marines and maybe before pdd energy.
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On October 06 2010 22:51 megamunky wrote:
if you 4 warpgate with warp prism
what you meant to write was "if you go all-in" - because that's what you are doing with 4 warpgate AND robo
it works or at least can work, but I'm not fond of such strategies; there are always ways to defend such stuff and if it catches on, terrans will be prepared
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I'm a 1400 Terran player and this is my primary build against Toss. I rarely lose while using this build. I'd say the key to stopping this marine/banshee/raven attack is to engage far away from your main base. Make the terran player waste the PDD and then fall back. He most likely will not engage without another PDD. By that time, you should have some more units out of your own and higher tech.
If you sit back and wait for the attack vs this build you will lose just about every time.
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On October 06 2010 22:37 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 22:22 iPoLL wrote:
Hi,
i found a somewhat working solution to deal with this push, but since i am not diamond i can't tell if this works in the higher levels. I really appreciate your effort, but for me (900 diamond moving up) that's exactly the point - I didn't have many problems until I started to meet 1,3k+ terrans; these players always manage to keep banshees alive (although many of them don't bother microing marines which makes me mad while watching the reps); this is the core problem: once banshees live they can harass the hell out of you while you are trying to get back onto your feet this is why I'm thinking of abandoning the kcdc FE and go 2 gate stargate always I'm remotely sure there will be 1/1/1 play; banshees MUST die, no matter what - if marines live, fine, you can warp in a couple of stalkers to clean up; but living banshees will put you so far behind, you can basicly gg right there
So this push would work if there is no PDD involved? Haven't tried that one. And wouldn't 2gate starport make u more prone to banshees since u have no ops to detect cloaked units or do u attack them before cloak is out? What the first unit u crunch out of the stargate? A phoenix for scouting i assume?
pls elaborate
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On October 06 2010 23:11 DannyGlover wrote:
...
If you sit back and wait for the attack vs this build you will lose just about every time.
I also think that never letting them get that far would be the safest option, but i haven't found a timing (except blindly going for 4gate push) window to do so, at at least clues that would make me trigger my attack. If u have some ideas pls do share.
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On October 06 2010 23:18 iPoLL wrote:So this push would work if there is no PDD involved? Haven't tried that one. And wouldn't 2gate starport make u more prone to banshees since u have no ops to detect cloaked units or do u attack them before cloak is out? What the first unit u crunch out of the stargate? A phoenix for scouting i assume? pls elaborate
there was a game of socke vs sarens about a week ago where he opened like that; ironically he DID get cloak-harassed but got an observer out just in time to not get GG-ed out;
the funny thing is: with his fast (chrono-boosted) phoenixes he did A LOT more damage to sarens than sarens could do with cloak; he lifted/killed scvs AND marines all over the place and basicly forced sarens to abandon banshees and go for mech (since he had too few baracks for mmm); long story short, both expanded, socke went for zealot-heavy gateway-composition with immortals and slow-tech to templars, in the subsequent battle he lifted the tanks and cleaned up
I have to re-check timings, but in this build I think it's key to get a robo out immediately after the stargate and go zealot-heavy to be able to afford this gas-wise; then you can capitalize with chrono-boosted phoenixes and key seems to be to also pick up some marines;
what you can do: go for the mineral-line and pick up 1-2 scvs; then go to his baracks and pick up marines that come out; marines are slow, he can't defend both mineral line and baracks-exits effectively at the same time; such a harass wouldn't be possible with 1 gate robo first, since you prolly would have only 1-2 phoenixes barely out when the push comes
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Wow @ a few posts up...do hallucinated Phoenix shots really eat PDD charges? I definitely never even considered that but it might help.
This build is primarily why I've been moving away from 1 gate expand except like cross-map metal or something. Opening with early VRs to expand at like 50 food just seems so much safer with phoenixes readily available and you can eat up soooo much marine health if they're stimming to try and catch your void rays that early bio pushes become a joke to deal with.
Speaking about playing against ~1400-1700 diamond Terrans.
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On October 06 2010 23:18 iPoLL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 22:37 sleepingdog wrote:On October 06 2010 22:22 iPoLL wrote:
Hi,
i found a somewhat working solution to deal with this push, but since i am not diamond i can't tell if this works in the higher levels. I really appreciate your effort, but for me (900 diamond moving up) that's exactly the point - I didn't have many problems until I started to meet 1,3k+ terrans; these players always manage to keep banshees alive (although many of them don't bother microing marines which makes me mad while watching the reps); this is the core problem: once banshees live they can harass the hell out of you while you are trying to get back onto your feet this is why I'm thinking of abandoning the kcdc FE and go 2 gate stargate always I'm remotely sure there will be 1/1/1 play; banshees MUST die, no matter what - if marines live, fine, you can warp in a couple of stalkers to clean up; but living banshees will put you so far behind, you can basicly gg right there So this push would work if there is no PDD involved? Haven't tried that one. And wouldn't 2gate starport make u more prone to banshees since u have no ops to detect cloaked units or do u attack them before cloak is out? What the first unit u crunch out of the stargate? A phoenix for scouting i assume? pls elaborate
Yes, you do not need PDD for this to work. In fact it is MUCH stronger without a raven because ravens are completely retarded. People don't realize that cloak is the same cost AND doesn't take up starport time, OR you could have 2 more banshees instead of that raven. I'd rather have 2 more banshees since a PDD absorbs less stalker hits than 2 more banshees. Think about that one.
Once terrans learn how to be not bad things are only going to get worse for P.
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On October 06 2010 23:32 Shifft wrote:
Wow @ a few posts up...do hallucinated Phoenix shots really eat PDD charges? I definitely never even considered that but it might help.
they definitely do
still I'm not sure if it's worth it; because you WANT to have guardian shield up (better 2 of them) and going stargate + robo means a very gas-intensive tech; hallucination is additional 100/100 and for 150/100 you already get a TC and can aim for charge which owns this composition hard together with force fields
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On October 06 2010 23:35 Floophead_III wrote:
OR you could have 2 more banshees instead of that raven.
I assume you are talking ONLY about gas? because minerals needed are significantly higher, also both have the same buildtime (60 sec)
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On October 06 2010 23:38 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 23:35 Floophead_III wrote:
OR you could have 2 more banshees instead of that raven. I assume you are talking ONLY about gas? because minerals needed are significantly higher, also both have the same buildtime (60 sec)
Gas is your limiter, not minerals. So yes, I'm talking about gas, because it's the only thing that matters unless your build sucks.
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On October 06 2010 23:35 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 23:18 iPoLL wrote:On October 06 2010 22:37 sleepingdog wrote:On October 06 2010 22:22 iPoLL wrote:
Hi,
i found a somewhat working solution to deal with this push, but since i am not diamond i can't tell if this works in the higher levels. I really appreciate your effort, but for me (900 diamond moving up) that's exactly the point - I didn't have many problems until I started to meet 1,3k+ terrans; these players always manage to keep banshees alive (although many of them don't bother microing marines which makes me mad while watching the reps); this is the core problem: once banshees live they can harass the hell out of you while you are trying to get back onto your feet this is why I'm thinking of abandoning the kcdc FE and go 2 gate stargate always I'm remotely sure there will be 1/1/1 play; banshees MUST die, no matter what - if marines live, fine, you can warp in a couple of stalkers to clean up; but living banshees will put you so far behind, you can basicly gg right there So this push would work if there is no PDD involved? Haven't tried that one. And wouldn't 2gate starport make u more prone to banshees since u have no ops to detect cloaked units or do u attack them before cloak is out? What the first unit u crunch out of the stargate? A phoenix for scouting i assume? pls elaborate Yes, you do not need PDD for this to work. In fact it is MUCH stronger without a raven because ravens are completely retarded. People don't realize that cloak is the same cost AND doesn't take up starport time, OR you could have 2 more banshees instead of that raven. I'd rather have 2 more banshees since a PDD absorbs less stalker hits than 2 more banshees. Think about that one. Once terrans learn how to be not bad things are only going to get worse for P.
So its either 2 Banshee + 1 Raven or 2 Banshees + Cloak? If u wait for 2 additional banshees its another 60 seconds so additional 3 - 4 units on the protoss side. Btw i wasn't able to get them in 60 seconds since i ran out if gas. so it was more like 80 seconds, but prolly my T buid just sucks I will try the 4 banshee push tonight, really curious how effective that is and if it is worth the delay.
Also i can't see how 2 Banshee + Cloak is better than 2 Banshee + 1 Raven, given the fact that there prolly is an observer that nullifies the cloak. I would guess they are pretty even. Okay, 2 Banshee + cloak is faster (60 seconds) and u can do it with 1 starport, so less toss units to deal with but also no PDD to tank 20 stalker shots ... and cloak is still worthless against a robo build.
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On October 06 2010 23:31 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 23:18 iPoLL wrote:So this push would work if there is no PDD involved? Haven't tried that one. And wouldn't 2gate starport make u more prone to banshees since u have no ops to detect cloaked units or do u attack them before cloak is out? What the first unit u crunch out of the stargate? A phoenix for scouting i assume? pls elaborate there was a game of socke vs sarens about a week ago where he opened like that; ironically he DID get cloak-harassed but got an observer out just in time to not get GG-ed out; the funny thing is: with his fast (chrono-boosted) phoenixes he did A LOT more damage to sarens than sarens could do with cloak; he lifted/killed scvs AND marines all over the place and basicly forced sarens to abandon banshees and go for mech (since he had too few baracks for mmm); long story short, both expanded, socke went for zealot-heavy gateway-composition with immortals and slow-tech to templars, in the subsequent battle he lifted the tanks and cleaned up I have to re-check timings, but in this build I think it's key to get a robo out immediately after the stargate and go zealot-heavy to be able to afford this gas-wise; then you can capitalize with chrono-boosted phoenixes and key seems to be to also pick up some marines; what you can do: go for the mineral-line and pick up 1-2 scvs; then go to his baracks and pick up marines that come out; marines are slow, he can't defend both mineral line and baracks-exits effectively at the same time; such a harass wouldn't be possible with 1 gate robo first, since you prolly would have only 1-2 phoenixes barely out when the push comes
I just watched the match, socke went 2 gate +stargate +robo off 1 base ... it feels more like an emergency build than an actual stable build if u watch the his other matches in the series. He always goes gate port gate etc. and only adds robo if it is really needed (emergency). Ofc it doesn't mean that it is a bad build, but how do u deal with a simple 3 rax push, given the fact that port + phoenix is pretty expensive gas and time wise, so u won't have enough units to deal with the 3rax. I can see this work on maps with close air distance and far ground distance, but on close ground distance ... i don't know ... Have u tried this out? If so can u post ur results in this thread with a replay? I will do the same.
cheers, ipoll
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On October 01 2010 06:10 Curu wrote:
If you're talking about some variation of iEchoic's 1/1/2, I've been raped while doing it by mass stalkers + obs then getting blink. You can hit just before banshees come out when all the Terran's got are marines from 1 barracks. Just use obs for vision and blink up into his main, bypassing the bunker(s).
the problem with this suggestion is that iEchoics build involves a hellion drop and with your stalkers at your opponents base... yea your going to have A LOT of dead probes
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The build is not all in. If you beat the push the terran does not instantly lose. It doesn't even have to be on 1 base, you can expo behind the push. People need to stop saying every build they lose to is an all-in. A 5 gate protoss opening is all in, if you constantly build units you don't build up the money to expo. Pushes with 5-10 scv's are all in, if you beat it you win. A push with a pile of marines and some banshee's is not all in. If you kill all the marines and the banshee's the terran can expo and transition.
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On October 07 2010 02:19 Endbringer wrote:
The build is not all in. If you beat the push the terran does not instantly lose. It doesn't even have to be on 1 base, you can expo behind the push. People need to stop saying every build they lose to is an all-in. A 5 gate protoss opening is all in, if you constantly build units you don't build up the money to expo. Pushes with 5-10 scv's are all in, if you beat it you win. A push with a pile of marines and some banshee's is not all in. If you kill all the marines and the banshee's the terran can expo and transition.
I assume u mean 4 Gate? I've never seen a 5 Gate opening and i can't imagine how u could support this? Btw. <smart ass> 4 Gate is a semi all in, since u can just stop to produce units to save up ... u don't have to go through with the 4 gate if u realize early enough it has failed. </smart ass>
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No actually I mean 5 gate. You can go 5 gate and support it, you just have to occasionally cut probes. Day9 actually talked about it a few times in his casts as well. What exactly does semi all in mean? Its almost an all in? That would then be called a Not all in build, which is exactly what I am saying. All in is being used for just about anything people lose to now. If you beat the push and auto win due to a huge eco advantage, that's all in. Semi all in is basically just about any aggressive opening.
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I've been struggling with this push too much, as it seems every Terran just figured how to beat Toss %100 of the time. Someone mentioned hallucinated phoenix eating up the PDD, but since the Raven is a detector, does anyone know if the PDD will still block the attacks? If a detector is around a hallucination, the attacking units will ignore the hallucination and go for the real ones.
The reason why this build is so strong is for 2 reasons. 1) It's almost impossible to stop (I have yet to see someone stop it, but I say "almost impossible" because there must be a way, we just need to come up with one) and 2) When we do find a way to beat it, it will probably leave the Protoss susceptible to early bio pushes or early 1 Rax expos, since the focus of our build will be ant-banshee//anti-raven.
Here's the bane of my existence: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Polt_timing_attack_(vs._Protoss)
And the link to the GSL game showing this build, it's game 1 so you don't need the subscription
http://www.gomtv.net/videos/1034/0
To any Terran out there, how has this build NOT succeeded? Besides your own microing mistake?
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On October 07 2010 05:09 PsychedelicMonk wrote:I've been struggling with this push too much, as it seems every Terran just figured how to beat Toss %100 of the time. Someone mentioned hallucinated phoenix eating up the PDD, but since the Raven is a detector, does anyone know if the PDD will still block the attacks? If a detector is around a hallucination, the attacking units will ignore the hallucination and go for the real ones. The reason why this build is so strong is for 2 reasons. 1) It's almost impossible to stop (I have yet to see someone stop it, but I say "almost impossible" because there must be a way, we just need to come up with one) and 2) When we do find a way to beat it, it will probably leave the Protoss susceptible to early bio pushes or early 1 Rax expos, since the focus of our build will be ant-banshee//anti-raven. Here's the bane of my existence: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Polt_timing_attack_(vs._Protoss)And the link to the GSL game showing this build, it's game 1 so you don't need the subscription http://www.gomtv.net/videos/1034/0To any Terran out there, how has this build NOT succeeded? Besides your own microing mistake?
I believe PDD will use up charges on hallucinated targets that are detected regardless. That being said that's 100/100 and 100 sentry energy for a hallucinated phoenix. I don't know if it's a good investment, much less one that turns a massive 1 sided loss into a victory.
You are very correct about your 2nd reason. You CAN beat this push. You just have to open fast colossus and phoenix at the same time while basically making only enough units to stop the hellion drop or couple banshees that will be poking in to harass. Try that vs anything else and you're likely behind or dead. I'm pretty sure phoenix won't even be a viable option when T gets good enough to scan and pick observers with marines/vikings. In theory we haven't even seen the skill cap of what T can do with this build. That's what scares me the most.
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scout -> stargate -> 3gatepush ?
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On October 07 2010 02:46 Endbringer wrote:
No actually I mean 5 gate. You can go 5 gate and support it, you just have to occasionally cut probes. Day9 actually talked about it a few times in his casts as well. What exactly does semi all in mean? Its almost an all in? That would then be called a Not all in build, which is exactly what I am saying. All in is being used for just about anything people lose to now. If you beat the push and auto win due to a huge eco advantage, that's all in. Semi all in is basically just about any aggressive opening.
Can u link me to these dailies? Must have missed them. I am really curious how u can keep 5 Gates running. Tons of zeals and sentries i assume? I already have problems keeping 4 Gates running as it is.
Semi all in means that u can transition out of it if u choose to or if the situation requires you to, but there is a point where u can't transition anymore.
So basically, if u keep the Gates running its an all in, if u let them rest and transition something else its not an all in anymore. Ofc there is way more to it,
but u can just read the desc. in the wiki -> 4 Gate Push
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On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience.
This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game.
Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it.
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On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it.
Can you go 1 Gate FE into 3 Gate Robo into Stargate and 2 more gateways in time? This push happens at around the 10 minute mark. If so, God bless you sir, and please post a replay so I can literally bask in your ambiance. Because that'd be sick.
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I was just in a similar situation, cept instead of marine/raven/banshee
it was viking/banshee/marine.
Around 7-8 banshee/10 marine. 4-5 viking vs
7 stalkers, 5 zealots, 2 obs. (and later, like 9 stalkers 4 pheonix vs a similar force).
I tried mass stalkers but he would scan and snipe the obs with the vikings before I could do much against the banshees, while the marines and the banshees ate my stalkers.
I couldn't do anything against him because his marines ate my pheonix, his vikings + scans beat my obs and then banshees raped my stalkers.
Any idea what would beat this?
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Can u post a replay?
'cause this ...
On October 07 2010 09:14 Drathmar wrote:
...
Around 7-8 banshee/10 marine. 4-5 viking vs
7 stalkers, 5 zealots, 2 obs. (and later, like 9 stalkers 4 pheonix vs a similar force).
...
Any idea what would beat this?
... sounds like a macro problem.
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It probably was now that I watched it I did notice I was getting supply blocked fairly frequently. The numbers were kind of wrong as well.
I went phoenix kind of late and never used my robo much was gonna WP harass with it but his vikings shut it down. This was actually a horrid game for me looking back at it  .
replay (if you still want to watch): http://www.mediafire.com/?rphbtlabdb6liuy
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On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it.
kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help
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On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:
Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it.
replay or doesn't/didn't happen (probably too harsh, but I just wanted to write this once  )
since the push normall comes between 9-10 minutes, you won't have any useful tech out, unless you really rush colossi (first one will be there at 9:30, but this would mean no phoenixes); if you go 3 gate robo stargate you will definitely NOT have charge (TC + research = 190 sec)
for me this push has gotten to the point where I just wanna punch myself in the face; yesterday I've lost against (2 different) T-custom-game-partners EVERY game where they did 1/1/1; once I even managed to snipe the raven with my phoenixes, but the mass-marines just cleaned up my gateway-units who weren't in superior numbers because of the phoenixes
when I go 1 base the necessity of the robo really screws up my options; I'd like to go 2 gate stargate into TC and rush out charge; but then again cloak will just GG me; even if I know what's coming (hiding probe in base/fog and spotting early fact) I end up getting crushed; I really hope somebody can provide a rep where he beats a 1.2k+ T doing this - not having a plan that I know "can" work when I execute it smoothly is like the worst feeling; seeing naniwa losing against demuslim doing this didn't particularly help either....
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I usually stop this build by going 1 gate -> robo (observer) -> 2nd gate -> Citadel (Chargelot) -> Starport.
Scouting probe confirms mass marines, in which I cut back on stalkers and go mainly zealot/sents. The observer confirms double starports which is when I throw up the stargate.
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On October 07 2010 19:01 MayorITC wrote:
I usually stop this build by going 1 gate -> robo (observer) -> 2nd gate -> Citadel (Chargelot) -> Starport.
Scouting probe confirms mass marines, in which I cut back on stalkers and go mainly zealot/sents. The observer confirms double starports which is when I throw up the stargate.
TC before stargate - will definitely try it today if my practice partners are online (chances that I run into a 1/1/1-terran on ladder are still quite low on my level; most of them just mass MMM)
@Gnial: I know the reps, the lack of the raven is the main reason why I'm reluctant to adapt my own strategy based on what white ra does; because without a raven I could indeed just go mass-gateway after throwing down a nexus asap
nevertheless the raven means that my stalkers will REALLY lose effectiveness - meaning that I can't rely on my "defender's advantage" because I have to force out PDD on the open field and retreat; which means I'll possibly lose quite some units in the process;
pure marine/banshee is indead (hard) countered by FE and 6-gating, the cost-effectiveness of banshees gets nullified by the sheer economical advantage that provides the early expansion; especially since you can also afford pulling and losing probes when defending, if you just manage to kill him off and deny him an expansion of his own;
but one - or worse, two - PDD in front of my base mean pure havoc when I don't have phoenixes to harass beforehand and maybe snipe the raven
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On October 07 2010 06:48 iPoLL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 02:46 Endbringer wrote:
No actually I mean 5 gate. You can go 5 gate and support it, you just have to occasionally cut probes. Day9 actually talked about it a few times in his casts as well. What exactly does semi all in mean? Its almost an all in? That would then be called a Not all in build, which is exactly what I am saying. All in is being used for just about anything people lose to now. If you beat the push and auto win due to a huge eco advantage, that's all in. Semi all in is basically just about any aggressive opening. Can u link me to these dailies? Must have missed them. I am really curious how u can keep 5 Gates running. Tons of zeals and sentries i assume? I already have problems keeping 4 Gates running as it is. Semi all in means that u can transition out of it if u choose to or if the situation requires you to, but there is a point where u can't transition anymore. So basically, if u keep the Gates running its an all in, if u let them rest and transition something else its not an all in anymore. Ofc there is way more to it, but u can just read the desc. in the wiki -> 4 Gate Push
He has never done a daily on 5 warpgate specifically, he has just mentioned the build a few times. It would take a lot of daily watching for me to dig up which episodes he mentions the build in. I know he again mentioned it in passing in the last 2 days. Originally it might have been the 4 warpgate daily or the one talking about huk. It was one of the dailys from back in beta.
I read the liquidpedia thing you linked, I can see where you get your description. That seems like a valid descriptor of the 3-1-2 build, semi-all in.
As for supporting a 5 warpgate, you can just cut probes after you have a solid income to get the extra minerals to focus on more zealots. That's why its a true all in, unlike the standard 4 warpgate push.
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As a Terran player the things i notice are that only thing that really rapes me is zealot/sentry when I go a raven push. I almost always get a free observer kill right when my raven spawns, and if P expos about the same time that my raven comes up it gets really one sided.
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Has anyone tried 4 gate robo with fast warp prism drop (4 zeals) into warp? At that point he should mostly still have marines.
I have only run into this build once, when I saw a bunker I assumed some sort of tech, seemed to work quite well.
Just a thought.
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On October 07 2010 21:50 Bungle wrote:
Has anyone tried 4 gate robo with fast warp prism drop (4 zeals) into warp? At that point he should mostly still have marines.
I have only run into this build once, when I saw a bunker I assumed some sort of tech, seemed to work quite well.
Just a thought.
tried it once, is a very nasty all-in that fails hard when you don't do considerable damage - if he pulls SCVs and manages to kill your warped in forces quickly you are dead
also fails miserably when he is preparing for a hellion-drop instead of banshees because hellions are actually quite good vs zealots --> scvs + hellions + marines won't end well for warpprism-warp-in
I've just stumbled upon a game from huk vs jimmy where huk did indeed win with brute force - he went for 2 gate robo, added a quick TC and also expanded quickly when he spotted the first banshee; added 2 more gates and went for pure gateway + charge; chargelots rape bio so hard when they aren't massed from 3 rax and supported by tons of medivacs....it wasn't even funny; the stalkers (blink was also nearly done) cleaned up the banshees; although a stargate could've helped too at this point, maybe instead of the 4th gateway
I'll definitely try quick chargelots into expand when I get home - charge could be the key to get rid of the high-dps marines fast enough to enable stalkers/phoenixes to do their job on the banshees
although counter-inuitive, it could be helpful to lay really low on sentries because they soak up the gas which is really needed for the techs; if you go for quick charge, force-fields will work against you in mid-game, and guardian shield doesn't work on charge-lots either, because the charge-lots are normally out of range of the shield after they have charged up; therefore sticking with 1-2 initial sentries and going zealot/stalker heavy could be the key to allow a much faster tech (TC/charge right after robo) - the expo can be afforded anyways since the terran won't move out before he has his banshees/raven;
dunno about the polt-all-in with only one raven + one banshee....here it probably comes really down to forcing the PDD + stim (is it researched in this build at all?) outside of your base and pulling back immediately afterwards, replenishing the army and re-engaging the marines that are maybe already hurt from the first stim too.....no idea if this works....
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On October 07 2010 22:09 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 21:50 Bungle wrote:
Has anyone tried 4 gate robo with fast warp prism drop (4 zeals) into warp? At that point he should mostly still have marines.
I have only run into this build once, when I saw a bunker I assumed some sort of tech, seemed to work quite well.
Just a thought. tried it once, is a very nasty all-in that fails hard when you don't do considerable damage - if he pulls SCVs and manages to kill your warped in forces quickly you are dead also fails miserably when he is preparing for a hellion-drop instead of banshees because hellions are actually quite good vs zealots --> scvs + hellions + marines won't end well for warpprism-warp-in
So are we talking about marines/banshees/raven or marines into hellion drop?
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On October 07 2010 21:50 Bungle wrote:
Has anyone tried 4 gate robo with fast warp prism drop (4 zeals) into warp? At that point he should mostly still have marines.
I have only run into this build once, when I saw a bunker I assumed some sort of tech, seemed to work quite well.
Just a thought.
I think they just pull scvs and when the push comes you get rolled.
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On October 07 2010 22:20 Bungle wrote:
So are we talking about marines/banshees/raven or marines into hellion drop?
we are talking about marines/banshees/raven
nevertheless you suggested to go for a fast warp-prism drop; now to be able to do that you have to prepare 4 warpgate AND the warp-prism before you get any scouting information, just by guessing when you see the bunker or see a quick factory;
meaning, if you "think" they are going marines/banshees/raven which turns out to be not the case, you are already committed to warp-prism-warp-in and therefore screwed
I/we should look for builds that don't require any guessing - a good response to this must be tailored around a build that goes quick observer or at the very least quick phoenix for scouting
EDIT: also could be that he goes marines/tanks/air - a 1/1/1-composition is impossible to predict just by seeing the buildings
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On October 07 2010 18:32 Gnial wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153780I posted a bunch of replays of White-ra facing off against Morrow's 3-1-2 build. Morrow doesn't use ravens, but it should give an idea of what types of compositions, openings, scouting methods, etc. work against this build.
I watched the replays and honestly the last game where whitera won he did a non viable opening.
He went 3 gate robo with 1 obs into expo + 2 more gates. If Morrow scans/scouts and sees 3 gate robo all he has to do is expand and hold it and he's massively ahead. It might've been more viable cause it was sands and expanding is much harder to pull off, but that doesn't make it actually viable.
Also, morrow did the exact same build every time - you don't run across that in ladder, and there's many viable variations.
You can get a raven. You can get cloak. You can open hellion drop. You can open marine drop. You can opt for stim. You can probably even do a timing attack off a 1 rax expand build. Hell, you could put your bunker down like you're going to do a 1 rax FE, fake it, and then do the damn same allin.
White Ra did not demonstrate how to hold it if you go for a 1 gate FE.
I'm not saying anything bad about the players, but those games only explored the tip of the iceberg with regards to this playstyle. There's SO much more to it.
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On October 07 2010 22:28 sleepingdog wrote:
EDIT: also could be that he goes marines/tanks/air - a 1/1/1-composition is impossible to predict just by seeing the buildings
Tanks vs. P are not as popular after the Patch. I suspect any kind of tech choice that is able to deal with this timing push can easily be tweaked to deal with tanks after you see them.
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Yeah, I do largely agree that those replays aren't "the answer" to the 3-1-2 build - just trying to generate some ideas. The one thing I really took away from those replays is how a fast expand seems to be extremely effective against the build. Especially if they take the time to get a raven as well - you certainly have enough time to make back your investment + extra from the expansion.
The solution may be more of a positioning solution if anything - try to hold an advanced position on your opponent so that you have space to retreat with your stalkers once the PDDs are put down. You would have to take precautions against banshee harass though.
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Wow last time I check post it had only 3 pages. I'm glad people keep adding their insights and advices.
First I would like to restate to all not to bother posting: "Oh I beat that shit I went 4 gate". The point of the thread was asking how to adapt given that you went 1 gate, 1 core, got your robo up and scouted the T doing this banshee/rine/raven build at around 6 mins.
I've tried doing more early harass with stalker and it did help. The noober terran delayed their push or transition into something else (ground play or more maurauders, or hell drop).
I've tried quick ht storms and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It really depends on how well the terran can micro. Someone said I should try to force a fight out in the open to make him waste pdd, it's a good advice. It delays their push and by the time I have more hts with storm rdy and starting some collis. Or i'll have good phoenix count and going charge lots. I'll have to try incorporating hallu to see whether ht or phoenix is easier.
As for now I still prefer hts because of the phoenix bug and coz if I go phoenix, the terran will get more maurauders for ground adv (honestly maurauder are so freakin gay so i dont want to go phoenix)
Some people have been saying 1 gate expo before 30 supply, I do this often but I rarely win vs a terran doing rine/raven/banshee timing push. I think that terran strat is to specifically counter fast expo. So if any did win pls post replays, I would love to see how it's possible. However I remain skeptical and will assume the terran was just terribad.
I took note of the warp prism harass, i'll have to try that instead of being on the defensive with ht storms.
Recap:
1)Ht storms works if I turtle right. I'm sure if I face vs higher skilled terrans it would be harder. However I like ht storms coz it give me a good timing window to get collis and gg him.
2)Phoenix play works but u need constant harass, the game will still progress into a fair fight, as oppose to the ht storm I get the timing window for gg.
3)Warp prism harass to try
4) 1gate fast expo, don't believe it works, would appreciate replays.
5) don't tell me to scout earlier 4 korean gate him or cannon push w/e... That's not the point of the thread. I'm not looking for optimal strat, I'm looking for how I can react and adapt from a standard a gate then robo then another gate then go hts? go phoenix? get more gates and sentries since pdd doesn't absord sentries... etc
Hope there's more interesting opinions to come, thanks guys much appreciated!
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On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help
I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees.
Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees.
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The optimal build order against 1/1/2 is:
1 gate
Robo -> observer
2 gate -> Zealots + Sentries (only need like 2-3 sentries)
Citadel -> Chargelots
Stargate -> Phoenixes
Expand when you have surplus minerals, tech to templar archives when you have 200 excess gas. You won't need too many phoenixes unless he pumps out Vikings as well.
The scouting probe will confirm that the Terran player is going marines only. The observer will arrive at the Terran's base in time to see the 2 starports so you can throw down a stargate then.
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On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees.
I know you two have had success. I have not. Now that might be a reflection on how we go about engaging/army mix/skill of opponents/style of 3 1 2. Overall though, I just can't consistently win. I haven't lost EVERY game vs the style, just every game vs players I think are at least reasonably decent.
The issue with FE is that it inherently delays your scouting. simply doing fast banshee harass forces P to have 2 observers on defense at all times, even if you don't get cloak. It's very hard to know if T is going for the timing attack or just playing a standard safe banshee harass into expo or whatever.
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On October 08 2010 05:08 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees. I know you two have had success. I have not. Now that might be a reflection on how we go about engaging/army mix/skill of opponents/style of 3 1 2. Overall though, I just can't consistently win. I haven't lost EVERY game vs the style, just every game vs players I think are at least reasonably decent. The issue with FE is that it inherently delays your scouting. simply doing fast banshee harass forces P to have 2 observers on defense at all times, even if you don't get cloak. It's very hard to know if T is going for the timing attack or just playing a standard safe banshee harass into expo or whatever.
Have you considered using scouting cues before your observer reaches their base to get your stargate started sooner? The common Terran openers are 3-rax pushes, early expands (1-rax or 2, with or without early pushes), tanks, or starport units. The 3-rax push hits way before you'd need to worry about starting a stargate, and you can scout early expansions and tank builds with a probe. Just send a scouting probe when you feel like you'd need to start a stargate against a banshee build and if it doesn't scout units defending outside the nat (expansion) or get blown up by a tank on the high ground (....tanks), you know he's getting starport units. Whether it's medivacs or banshees/raven, phoenixes will help. Against 1-base MMM, phoenixes will delay charge/storm tech, so it might slow your win, but they shut down drops and a straight push is still defensible. (Also, killing medivacs with phoenixes is really fun.) More often, your observer will reveal that it was banshees + optional raven, in which case the stargate was the optimal transition.
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On October 08 2010 08:13 kcdc wrote:
Against 1-base MMM, phoenixes will delay charge/storm tech, so it might slow your win, but they shut down drops and a straight push is still defensible.
here I think we have to agree to disagree
if the terran plays defensively and just masses MMM without engaging (!) until a certain point, he will reach a critical mass that can NOT be defended with just gateway-units; critical mass means zealots die so fast that he doesn't have to kite anymore and force-fields lose their purpose unless you just block him out at tight spots like blistering or LT;
in most games I play and reps are see the terran overcommits way too early - but the better terrans I've played against (1,4k+) wait until ~9:30/10:00 when their MMM-ball is quite huge; in a recent game of socke he went FE vs morrow and also went for really fast colossi afterwards and got one out barely at ~9:30 - I think phoenixes will slow your tech down too much to beat mass-MMM
of course, if it works for you, why the hell not? I'm just saying/suggesting: try it out in the unit-tester: take ~24-26 marines together with ~12 marauders and 2-4 medivacs (I'm just making the numbers up right now, I have to re-check my recent reps for the actual numbers) and try to beat it with "just" gateway
EDIT: again for clarification - this is delayed MMM, I'm "NOT" challenging the point that early 3-rax pushes with just MM (without heal!) can be stopped!
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I was working on a way to beat the rine/banshee/pdd attack, and I found that getting quick storm demolishes it - twilight around 5:30, warp in one templar ASAP, chronoboost the storm research, get a robo, warp in another templar, and you can have two psi storms ready just after the 8:00 mark, plus an observer around the same time to save you from cloak. 8:00 is right around the same time his raven will have 100 energy, but he'll likely delay a minute or two to get more marines and banshees.
The big problem with doing this is that i haven't figured out how to scout properly early on. If he FE instead of banshee you have no way to stop him. Also you only get to spend 150 gas on units pre-robo.
If you want to fight it without doing any goofy build, remember to intercept his army early on the way to your base, so he can't PDD at your choke which is pretty much GG.
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btw don't use hallucinate vs this, his raven will spot them and his units will automatically target non-hallucinations before hallucinations. I have tested this.
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On October 08 2010 19:20 Keilah wrote:
btw don't use hallucinate vs this, his raven will spot them and his units will automatically target non-hallucinations before hallucinations. I have tested this.
this is so completely not the point
it's about hallucinated phoenixes eating up the PDD, which is a cool thing because it means, you "may" be able to go for FE + just mass-zealot/stalker/sentry while slow-teching for charge or colossi and nullify the PDD with a couple of hallucinated phoenixes; real phoenixes could be added afterwards, but once the FE is established and the push beaten, I guess you can go for whatever you want anyways
haven't tried it yet though
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On October 08 2010 19:55 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 19:20 Keilah wrote:
btw don't use hallucinate vs this, his raven will spot them and his units will automatically target non-hallucinations before hallucinations. I have tested this. this is so completely not the point it's about hallucinated phoenixes eating up the PDD, which is a cool thing because it means, you "may" be able to go for FE + just mass-zealot/stalker/sentry while slow-teching for charge or colossi and nullify the PDD with a couple of hallucinated phoenixes; real phoenixes could be added afterwards, but once the FE is established and the push beaten, I guess you can go for whatever you want anyways haven't tried it yet though
oh that's hella clever... 100/100 almost completely counters his 100/225 raven
I like it =]
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On October 09 2010 00:54 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 19:55 sleepingdog wrote:On October 08 2010 19:20 Keilah wrote:
btw don't use hallucinate vs this, his raven will spot them and his units will automatically target non-hallucinations before hallucinations. I have tested this. this is so completely not the point it's about hallucinated phoenixes eating up the PDD, which is a cool thing because it means, you "may" be able to go for FE + just mass-zealot/stalker/sentry while slow-teching for charge or colossi and nullify the PDD with a couple of hallucinated phoenixes; real phoenixes could be added afterwards, but once the FE is established and the push beaten, I guess you can go for whatever you want anyways haven't tried it yet though oh that's hella clever... 100/100 almost completely counters his 100/225 raven I like it =]
I've thought about this mainly because I tend to overdo the phoenixes against the 2/1/2 with reactor first - in this build the terran gets A LOT of marines which you have to deal with; if you don't have enough gateway-stuff you are doomed because the marines will live; living marines vs living phoenixes is not a good trade;
so maybe just go real heavy on gateway-units and just get hallucination for PDD while establishing the expansion for later phoenixes "might" be better than just throwing down a stargate kinda like a "panic"-reaction
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Just throwing this out there, but has anyone tried gas stealing with double assimilator to put a stop to this? this will effectively delay ALL teching for terran at the expense of your own gateway, but will pretty much make the timing push unviable due to the delay. Of course this prevents the build entirely rather than countering it, but as they say in medicine, the best treatment for a disease is to prevent it in the first place
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Hi Guys,
I've been having problems against this build epecially on scrap station. But here is a replay of me beating it. I faced the same guy before and he crushed me but this time it was revenge
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155929.jpg)
I opted for a FE + robo right after my nexus was planted. I noticed he was very marine heavy with my scouting probe and I had a feeling he was doing the hellion drop into banshee (ech's build) so I positioned my stalkers at my mineral lines and sure enough he tried to hellion harass, stomped it pretty hard.
After the hellion harass I assumed 100% he was going to go starport so I put down a stargate and all my assimilators. I feel if he just pushed a minute earlier would have been a different story, I noticed his control was shit at the last battle and good forcefields with last minute phoenixes won me the game.
If he has 2 banshees : 1 phoenix is a good ratio
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On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155995.jpg)
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On October 09 2010 10:55 Raggydiaper wrote:Hi Guys, I've been having problems against this build epecially on scrap station. But here is a replay of me beating it. I faced the same guy before and he crushed me but this time it was revenge I opted for a FE + robo right after my nexus was planted. I noticed he was very marine heavy with my scouting probe and I had a feeling he was doing the hellion drop into banshee (ech's build) so I positioned my stalkers at my mineral lines and sure enough he tried to hellion harass, stomped it pretty hard. After the hellion harass I assumed 100% he was going to go starport so I put down a stargate and all my assimilators. I feel if he just pushed a minute earlier would have been a different story, I noticed his control was shit at the last battle and good forcefields with last minute phoenixes won me the game. If he has 2 banshees : 1 phoenix is a good ratio
nice, nevertheless once I saw that he tried to counter-expand I knew he would fail hard
the marine/banshee/raven push is ONLY that dangerous because it comes at around 10-10:30 with ~26 marines + 1-2 marauders, raven and 2-3 banshees + 1-2 medivacs; at this point you effectively can't have storm and your phoenix-count will also be quite low still
as soon as the terran tries to counter-expand he loses every critical timing-window he has, once the protoss-expo has paid off and provides masses of gate-way-units + enough phoenixes to own banshees hard
you are perfectly right, he could've pushed earlier (not only a minute, but at around 10-10:30; timings taken from demuslim vs naniwa) if he hadn't tried to establish the expansion of his own
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Actually experienced my first loss against a protoss using this vs 1500.
He expanded fast and walled cannons on steppes, He had about 2 colossus and a bunch of stalkers by 11:30ish when I fought, probably the 4 cannons made the difference, being able to hit me for a full 20 damage instead of the stalker's 10 as well as blocking.
I probably coulda won if I wasn't a bonehead who charged right in and didn't just snipe off his natural with 9 banshees, his stalkers couldn't fight back since only 2 of them could target me at that range.
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I did some unit-tester-testing together with yabot and it seems like you can get two colossi together with 2-3 phoenixes with 3-4 stalkers + sentry + zealots at around 10:30 which beats this hard
I figured, what you really need is area of effect damage against the marines, I did some testing with chargelots and they just died too fast to be worth the tech; templars will be too late, I tested the timings; in demuslim vs naniwa, demuslim attacked at a point in time where I would never have been able to get templar according to my yabot-testing;
what you need to strive for is to kill the marines FAST with the colossi, best would be to keep them up at your ramp and place one perfect forcefield; your gateway-units will die, but so will his marines; in the end your phoenixes should live and be able to clean up the banshees; if you have phoenixes + one colossus left you are in a very good position because you can throw down an expansion while he lacks the critical number of marines to do any damage
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On October 09 2010 19:36 MadisonStreet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees.
I didn't throw down the stargate fast enough, it was too late for me, didn't matter what I did >_> .
two phoenix have no chance vs 8 banshees
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On October 10 2010 07:42 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 19:36 MadisonStreet wrote:On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees. I didn't throw down the stargate fast enough, it was too late for me, didn't matter what I did >_> . two phoenix have no chance vs 8 banshees
maybe you're interested, did some testing in the unit-tester, turns out that getting colossi is still better than early charge-lots vs marine/banshee/PDD - given that he attacks when you don't have HT yet of course (which will basicly always be the case); even though banshees have high dps vs colossi, their damage-output is way higher than charge + more zealots and stalkers could compensate at the point in the game where the attacks normally occur
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On October 10 2010 07:48 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 07:42 Minigun wrote:On October 09 2010 19:36 MadisonStreet wrote:On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees. I didn't throw down the stargate fast enough, it was too late for me, didn't matter what I did >_> . two phoenix have no chance vs 8 banshees maybe you're interested, did some testing in the unit-tester, turns out that getting colossi is still better than early charge-lots vs marine/banshee/PDD - given that he attacks when you don't have HT yet of course (which will basicly always be the case); even though banshees have high dps vs colossi, their damage-output is way higher than charge + more zealots and stalkers could compensate at the point in the game where the attacks normally occur
You are probably right, it was 4:00 in the morning, who knows what I was doing XD .
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Anyone else think a lot of these problems would be solved by buffing stalkers a little and nerfing pdd a lot?
I mean my cousin just watched me play the other day and asked why I was massing my starting unit against terran, lol. Speedlots for the win.
I really think Blizzard was so afraid of recreating the dragoon that they won't do anything to make stalkers actually viable in so many situations.
That or reduce the marauder + armored damage, it is just sick.
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What problem?
I can't remember the last time I saw a pro terran even make a PDD.
oh and stalkers are awesome, don't rag on them!
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Stalkers are entirely dependant on blink to be effective past the first 3 minutes of the game, and even then they are all too often in situations where they just melt to marauders.
Marines in equal cost beat stalkers. Marauders of equal cost slaughter stalkers. What gives? How about just giving them 14 damage to anything. Marauders should be weakened a bit and marines start with their old 40hp. The MM combo with stim is just too good now for a strategy that requires zero micro.
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Oh it's imba whine.
Watch some pros or something. They make lots of stalkers.
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Well, I don't want to derail, but because you make a unit doesn't mean it doesn't need help. People made stalkers before they got buffed in beta when they were really bad, simply because you had no choice.
And I actually don't have too much of a problem with stalkers in PvZ. The problem is that pretty much every terran unit cost effectively counters them. Marauders just destroy them, even marines for cost, stimmed or not. That isn't even counting the banshee or raven with PDD.
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On October 10 2010 08:59 Yaotzin wrote:
What problem?
I can't remember the last time I saw a pro terran even make a PDD.
oh and stalkers are awesome, don't rag on them!
orly?
GSL http://www.gomtv.net/videos/1034/0
TL entry http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Polt_timing_attack_(vs._Protoss)
Stalkers are awesome... when they can attack x_x
Some here are crying imba, but most of us are just trying to find a way to effectively counter this incredibly power early-Terran play. So please. If you have any ideas, contribute, if you don't, then allow us to discuss in peace.
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Someone would have to test how the battle turns out, but it does seem to me that if you research hallucinate and have energy for 4 hallucinates by the time he attacks, you can nullify his PDD by suiciding in 4 fake phoenixes. So for 100/100, stalkers are now usable again. I still don't know if a mainly stalker army beats marine/banshee, though.
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On October 01 2010 12:22 Millitron wrote:
I feel like all the people saying this is unstoppable are trying to fight it right outside their natural. You need to fight the push all the way to your base. Use the fact that stalkers can kite. Force him to PDD way before your base, then back off. Stall him basically. If he stims and chases your stalkers, thats a good thing, his rines get caught away from the PDD and banshees and get wiped out by zealots and good FFs. Alternately, you can just continue to back off and make him waste stims. Remember he doesn't have medevac's, so 1 stim is almost 1/5 his army's total HP. You need him to use PDD's and stims well before your base, so that once the push finally gets to you, the marines are all red health and the Ravens have no energy.
Really Protoss should fight ALL pushes like this, but thats a whole different discussion.
Ya this reminds me of pvt in bw. If you didn't stall T's pushes with goon kiting, you were dead for sure.
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small note, vs most builds protoss usually doesn't have this option as concussive shells make it impossible to hit & run
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On October 10 2010 12:38 0mgVitaminE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 12:22 Millitron wrote:
I feel like all the people saying this is unstoppable are trying to fight it right outside their natural. You need to fight the push all the way to your base. Use the fact that stalkers can kite. Force him to PDD way before your base, then back off. Stall him basically. If he stims and chases your stalkers, thats a good thing, his rines get caught away from the PDD and banshees and get wiped out by zealots and good FFs. Alternately, you can just continue to back off and make him waste stims. Remember he doesn't have medevac's, so 1 stim is almost 1/5 his army's total HP. You need him to use PDD's and stims well before your base, so that once the push finally gets to you, the marines are all red health and the Ravens have no energy.
Really Protoss should fight ALL pushes like this, but thats a whole different discussion. Ya this reminds me of pvt in bw. If you didn't stall T's pushes with goon kiting, you were dead for sure.
Because you can kill banshees harassing your probes when your force is at their base right?
Being outside Ts base is ridiculously risky. Stim + conc mara, drops, banshees, hellion runbys - all of these things punish that kind of positioning.
On top of that, fighting banshee/marine is way way way harder than fighting marine/tank. Banshees are much faster, take many more hits to kill, can stack on top of marines so you can never get free shots on them, and they completely, utterly decimate everything on the ground.
The fact is, this push is strong as hell even without a raven. There's so many variations that you cannot be assured of safety if you move your force out to their natural.
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On October 10 2010 08:56 Ascendant13 wrote:
Anyone else think a lot of these problems would be solved by buffing stalkers a little and nerfing pdd a lot?
lol
plz stop these kind of posts, they are not helpful...we are trying to come up with solutions here and don't wanna cry about imba
of course a lot of these problems would be solved by super-strong stalkers, useless PDD, nerfing banshees, hell even by buffing zealots so I can a-move right over every teching terran
but cmon man, that's not the point of this thread....
to make this a constructive post:
I've played around in yabot and came up with a build that leads to combo that outright beats the marine/banshee/raven-composition of demuslim (!) at the point of his timing attack: he had in his game vs nani:
26 marines, 2 marauders, 2 medivacs, raven, 2 banshees; ready at 10; arrived at 10:30
basic build order:
standard 12-gate, early (19) gas, start robo immediately after core, chrono boost stalker, chrono-boost observer, chrono-boost immortal (meaning stalker/sentry/immortal vs early aggression; maybe wanna switch observer/immortal when on close-positions); then constant chrono-boost probes for better 1-base eco; 2nd gate as early as you can afford it; rest of the chrono-boost goes to warpgate-tech; as soon as you scout get robotics bay;
cut gateway-production when bay is done and start producing colossi, also throw down a stargate; use chrono-boost on phoenixes immediately when stargate is done;
I managed to get:
9 zealots, 4 stalker, 1 sentry, 1 immortal, 2 colossi, 2 phoenixes at 10:30;
key is to produce only zealots while throwing down the tech-buildins and going for colossi; 1 immortal + sentry means you are safe against early marine/marauder shenanigans, given that you are indeed sure he doesn't have 3 rax-production
when to play this? when you scout 2/1/2 with reactor first baracks; the terran-build goes real slow on banshees and tries to capitalize with the high-dps-marines while forcing the protoss into a banshee-counter; therefore you want aoe-dmg (colossi) fast while getting the phoenixes also a bit slower;
when not to play this? when you scout 1/1/2 with tech-lab on baracks; this means much, much fewer marines and much earlier/more banshees; then you'd want the stargate before the robotics bay, which means you get phoenixes way earlier and delay colossi;
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155384.jpg)
watch that replay. i played vs a terran who did same exact thing.
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On October 10 2010 19:57 JDM.s2000 wrote:watch that replay. i played vs a terran who did same exact thing.
he didn't do the same exact thing at all - he got hellions and tanks (!) first, many, MANY vikings and later a couple of banshees
also you opened with phoenixes and got your robotics facility at 12 minutes into the game; sorry, but if he had gotten cloaked banshees you would've died multiple times before that; your strat worked which is good for you, but it's definitely not a safe opening to go with phoenixes into expo templar and then add a robotics very late into the game
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On October 09 2010 19:36 MadisonStreet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees.
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Why did they take the banshee cloak upgrade off of the fusion core? I mean it seems insanely easy to get given how awesome banshees are. Dark Templar are a hell of a lot harder and more expensive to get with an obvious building, and I would take banshees over DT any day of the week.
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i dunno why noones mentioned this but as soon as you scout the telltale marines on top of ramp with a possible bunker for the marine banshee raven indication, go for a preemptive strike as they are pretty vulnerable to a fast immortal push. granted when the ravens and banshees come out, its pretty much gg unless you are a micro god. Ive learned the hard way not to try and fight the marine/ban/rav and just focused on ending the game before they can assemble the toss destroyer army which i think is basically the new mmm. i guarantee t will not have a defense thats sufficient enough to hold against a 1 base 3 gate robo push when teching to raven/banshees. even if you were wrong and they were trying some kind of mech play, immortals still do well. its pretty much all i do if i suspect the banshee/rine timing push. btw i play at the 1400-1500 level so it might not be viable at higher levels
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well,if its any help to your guys,i just stumbled into this build yesterday at ladder
Xel naga caverns, PvT, I(as protoss) FE with only 1 gas(adelscot-style).I (think) i went gate-gate-robo. With the opening im having,i have barely enough off 1 gas to make a zealot heavy army+a few stalkers+obs+immortal. I scout double port banshees, get a stargate,chrono some phoenix out and it wasn't even close(opponent was ~1500-1600 terran)
http://www.mediafire.com/?z4t6200yjhtfpzl
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I've been doing a lot of testing in the Unit Tester and, food for food, the only Protoss armies that can beat the Terran attack require some very precise micro and that's without the PDD. I need to do some actual practice against this build, but I suspect the only ways to stop it are to delay it until the Terran's best window is closed or to defeat him outright before it happens.
I don't think the second one is very reliable, but I do believe the first option has potential.
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I've talked with several high level players and it REQUIRES you to go phoenix.
Watch sanzenith vs ogs hypderdub on GSL S2 Ro64 Day3A for more info.
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I used to have trouble with this but I actually am very succesfull vs this strategy. I've beat several 1900-2100 Terrans who try it. Unfortunately I had to reformat my computer recently so I don't have any replays atm. I will save some though. Here is what I do though
*13 gate chronoing nexus hard
*cybernatics core asap.
*keep chronoing nexus
*make 1 zeal then 2nd gas.
*have scouting probe outside terrans base so you can see if he is attacking.
*as soon as cybernatics core is up don't make a stalker make a robo bay asap
*then a chronoed stalker as soon as u have the 125 minerals then warp gates. for a sec you will be supply blocked and not able to make a probe, that is ok as the key is a super fast observer.
* with observer scout his base, if you see marauder start chroning Immortal. Keep in mind you still are on 1 gate at this time.
*Now you see exactly what the terran is doing the game is in your hands.
*To counter the rine/banshee strat
*citadel of adun with zeal speed upgrade ASAP
*1 stargate for phoenixes. then u just pump zeals / phoenixes This owns because the rines never get a chance to shoot the phoenixes with the zealots in their face. The Phoenixes also rape the banshees very fast.
*After the initial push slowly tech to templer usually I totally decimate their army and win there but if not a slow tech to storm finishes them off. Note after his first push he probably will change to vikings, if he does quit making phonenixes and beging making stalkers.
I'll make sure to save the replay next time I face this, if you can find a terran you want me to play I'll do that to. Feel Free to message me if you have any questions.
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@Monk:
tested it vs the reactor first mass-marine-style that eg. demuslim plays (much more marine-heavy than the tech-lab style, goes slower on banshees); doesn't work because zealots - even with charge and unmicroed marines - die too fast; at the ~11 minute mark T can have 26-28 marines; this is just brutal with stim, in my testing I always needed at least one colossus to win;
theory-craft of course, but then again I didn't kite a little bit in the unit-tester, so T could potentially be even stronger when they wait for charge THEN stim and kite;
banshees aren't really the problem because either your ground cleans up the marines or other way round - either way you can clean up with phoenixes/stalkers or are dead anyways
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from what i learned from GSL matches:
assuming you have expansion, go phoenix and mass cannons to defend.
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ok, obviously there is different ways they can push u. if he has 26-28 marines he is doing an all in vs u. Basically you survive the attack u win. In Pvt when terrans have had mass marines vs me, I will cannon up so if he is going ridiculous amount of marines simply cannon up and either tech to collosus or storm then you have huge tech advantage and will rape mass rines. Remember you have the observer in his base so you know exactly what he is doing. Worst case scenario when he does his push u use probes right away with zeals (im talking at least 10 probes) and the zeals will last a lot longer and u will win the fight for sure. This has happened to me and I've seriously lost like 12 probes and still won just cause I then had storm which obliterates marines.
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On October 20 2010 17:33 wxwx wrote:
from what i learned from GSL matches:
assuming you have expansion, go phoenix and mass cannons to defend.
I didn't wanna write it earlier because TL-admins don't like QQ....but after this recent GSL-match I'm deeply convinced that it's NOT possible to beat the T-combo in a cost-effective way when it is at its strongest (11 minute mark);
protoss is best off bunkering on 2 base (which is possible to establish because banshee/marine consists by definition just of marines early), getting enough phoenixes to kill banshees fast and kill terran by having the better economy: which means you can support a big enough gateway/colossi/phoenix-force
@Monk: problem with storm is, it comes "so" late that terran has a window to expand; if he uses this window then you are in a world of kaka because you are forced to move out; I found that you can get at least one colossus out before his attack arrives which will be enough damage to enable your ground to clear up; in low numbers banshees need surprisingly long to kill colossi, so I'd sack the colossus and just do as much damage as I can vs the marines because vs the banshees I'll have the phoenixes ready anyways
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I dunno what to say man, personally I've done very well vs this. Maybe what your talking about is a little different. If you have a terran that does this I'd like to play him. Something to think about though, if the terran expands you can expand as well. With your phoenixes harrassing him he is forced to stay in his base, while ur doing this u can put a pylon at ur natural and make several cannons. Anyways as soon as I happen to face this win or lose I'll let you know how it goes.
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On October 20 2010 18:21 Monk wrote:
Anyways as soon as I happen to face this win or lose I'll let you know how it goes.
would appreciate it
my experience comes from a loss (tourney) against a 1,7k-ish terran and theory-craft; what I did was basicly: I looked at the unit-counting in my rep and wrote down his units;
then I went to the unit-tester and tried a variety of combos that could potentially beat his combo;
here I found storm to be very good (of course) also colossi....zealots always lost even with charge, I only won when I individually microed sentries with guardian shield towards the charged zealots; impossible in real matches ofc;
then I went to yabot and tried which unit-combos I could "actually" get - and found that storm comes a full minute after his push; if I tech to storm too fast I'd just die against an earlier push like the "polt-style"; if I tech at "normal-speed" the timing will arrive at 10:30-11, which is before I get my first storms ready.....if I play "normal" of course and open with 2 gate robo;
obviously it's possible to get storm MUCH faster if you open with TC after 1-2 gate;
but getting robo...AND stargate....AND storm I found to be not do-able fast enough; I'd really appreciate reps on your style
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okay I know that this is maybe a stupid thing to do but and its something you have to basically do blindly and it would slow down your first gate but uhh...
Wouldnt a double gas steal real early on shut this build the fuck down? Seriously, no gas means no harass, late banshees, late ravens no labs or reactors only barracks.
Im probably shooting myself in the foot here but i know for sure since i play terran that that doing that would delay the timing harras and timing push by at the very least 2 mins. Any terran who then even tried to go through with that build would be a fool. That build depends on very specific timings. Miss the build order slightly and everything is screwed.
Please correct me if Im wrong...
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United States8476 Posts
On October 20 2010 21:24 eu.exodus wrote:
okay I know that this is maybe a stupid thing to do but and its something you have to basically do blindly and it would slow down your first gate but uhh...
Wouldnt a double gas steal real early on shut this build the fuck down? Seriously, no gas means no harass, late banshees, late ravens no labs or reactors only barracks.
Im probably shooting myself in the foot here but i know for sure since i play terran that that doing that would delay the timing harras and timing push by at the very least 2 mins. Any terran who then even tried to go through with that build would be a fool. That build depends on very specific timings. Miss the build order slightly and everything is screwed.
Please correct me if Im wrong...
lol wtf? That's 150 minerals down the drain, which delays your first gateway. You're basically dead vs everything else. Terran can either push you with scv + marine and win or do a marine expand. You're not going to lose to marine banshee, but you're putting yourself way behind and still going to lose. Also, if terran sees you stealing one gas, he's going to take the other.
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okay 4kmonk. Just making sure that you know there is a cancel button, and that probes can start warping in buildings super fast. I really think it could work. Just before they are done cancel repeat. Just keep the probe hidden.
What would you rather face? Marines only or rine banshee raven?
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first of all it's near impossible to steal both gas unless you send the probe super-early
second of all yes....you can die vs mass-marines and that's exactly what you are going to be up to if you delay your gate; he'll just ralley his first marines together with 2 scvs to your base and wait for your first unit to come out of your gateway; gl with that;
sorry, no way this could "ever" work
will watch it when I get home, very curious to compare the timings and the compositions...if this is the build we are talking about;
btw just fyi because I've been throwing random stuff around, THIS is the build I was talking about before, if you are interested and wanna check:
http://www.sc2win.com/starcraft-2-replays/tvp-pvt/demuslim-vs-naniwa-1/
obviously naniwas response was very bad, but that's not the point: just wanted to show you the composition I was mentioning that I've had a hard time beating; you may/can replace the medivacs with banshees, doesn't change much though (same gas-cost, minerals don't limit this strat)
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United States8476 Posts
Even assuming that you're canceling, your gate is going to be very delayed, at 15 supply at best(assuming constant probe production). Also, your gas is going to be very late. Because your gas is late, you'll only have about 1 sentry instead of 2 against a scv + marine all in.
Tbh imo marine banshee all in isn't all that good cause it's so predictable once you see 2 tech lab starport. There's a replay of nexgenius beating it with pure stalker + 2 collosi without range. Also, as we've seen from gomtv, phoenix + cannons + zealots + good forcefields can beat it.
I personally have more problem with the poltprime timing push with raven + 2 banshees + 2 rax marine heavy bio.
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United States8476 Posts
Btw, I saw the replay. You put up the twilight council before scouting him. The terran lost a few banshees before doing that push. Also, he didn't put up a bunker at the front and would have just died to stalker pressure.
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you shouldn't bother with twilight council or templar at all vs this build they hardly do anything. Charge is a minor upgrade that early in the game, it won't make a big difference really. Charge is good against marauder slow and later on in the game, early on it's just a waste.
Phoenixes are the best way to stop this build. With their dual attack and high attack rate they are hardly effected by the PDD.
A phoenix shoots 2 projectiles every 1.11 secs. A stalker shoots 1 projectile every 1.44 secs. Needless to say phoenixes empty and kill the PDD much faster then stalkers. Besides that both the PDD itself and banshee's are light so phoenixes absolutely rock against them and also important they can't be targeted by the banshee's itself. So as long as you kill all marines, you only need to have 1 phoenix left to take care of the banshee's (or just chronoboost one out you had making).
I wouldn't really advise cannons against this build, they are notoriously bad against PDD (relatively low rate of fire for their DPS) and are hard to position well. They are also very hard to time as you need to wait 45 seconds for the forge and then 40 for each cannon, scouting afterall is quite hard after they have a raven out... Cannons are also static making it much easier for the terran to choose the perfect spot for PDD, with a mobile army you have a better chance to force him into a bad PDD, ie. retreating and nullifying the PDD.
Just throw down a stargate if you see a tech lab starport, against cloaked banshee harass the phoenix is quite useful as well as they can just tail the banshee and scare it back to base. If you followup with colossi you can always keep using the stargate for phoenix. Phoenixes are cost even against vikings so it's really not a bad deal.
Obviously a stargate takes 60 seconds and a phoenix chronoboosted takes 30 so you do need to scout in time. In general against terran tech builds are pretty easy to scout though, just pressure with your first zealot and stalker. If they have a bunker or just marines expect some kind of tech build and just get a robo (the robo is good vs any tech build really), a blind stargate against a bunker isn't a bad move either, phoenixes obviously rock vs stargate builds and they are quite decent against tank pushes and hellion drops as well. If they have a fast marauder you can usually be quite confident they aren't going for this raven/banshee push.
If they do go for a raven/banshee push with marauders it's much weaker and you can generally hold it off with zealot/sentry/stalker. If you are somehow forced to fight it off without phoenixes you are usually in trouble but if you are a bit better then the terran it's manageable:
- use your probes in the fight
- try to engage him just a bit earlier then he would have liked, if he doesn't have concussive shell you can often retreat then and fight outside the range of the PDD.
- try to focus the PDD with sentries if possible, a few sentries kill it really quickly and this allows your stalkers to be good again.
Any terran going a fast marauder severely delays this push though as they need to wait for a extra 50 gas for their stargate and usually can't afford a 2nd refinery as fast either. That should usually give you enough time to still scout it fast enough to get phoenixes in time. A good trick against a fast marauder is just to send one probe up the ramp, it will get shot but if you see it's slowed down (the marauder usually shoots it first as it outranges the marines) you know they have concussive shells and are very unlikely to raven/banshee push you (and if they do it's a crappy build).
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United States8476 Posts
Really good advice from mark. I'd like to add some. Note that all this advice is from a 2 gate robo build. I'm not sure how to stop this marine banshee build from a 1 gate expand, but i'm very curious.
When you scout dual port + tech lab and reactor barracks, immediately make another observer. Be careful of the observer in his base, because a raven could come out at any second. Send a probe to check the path between your 2 bases. Camp some stalkers and an obs in each of your mineral lines.
Have enough observers when the push comes. 3 is ideal. You have no idea if he has cloak or not. I've had terrans spine my 2 observers and proceed to win with cloaked banshee. He saved up 2 scans and didn't even have a raven.
Gas management is key. Stargate + phoenix + mass obs is very gas intensive.
I like cannons vs this, contrary to mark. As long as you have phoenix, you can drain his pdd very fast. Plus, this strategy isn't good in the long term so he pretty much has to attack you. Cannon is amazing against both marines and banshee. You can also forcefield his marines inside cannon range.
Your ground army should be 2-3 stalker, 2-3 sentry, and the rest zealots. Guardian shield and forcefields are very important.
Focus banshees with your phoenix, not vikings, not the raven.
Try to keep your phoenix out of range of his marines.
If the terran starts off with 2 rax maurder/marine mix and then gets either 1 port or 2 port banshees, you pretty much need collosi to hold it off.
Alternatively, here's a replay of the stalker + collosi method to stop this push. It features NexGenius, one of the best terrans in the world: http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/1997
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Yeah I did go twighlight council before I even saw what he had with my obs. This is how I play every pvt though. I know its unconventional but I have a counter build that I do vs each terran which requires the fast twighlight council.
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This strat is definietly ridiculously strong right now. I dunno why everyone is preparing for a push that comes at around 1030. That seems ridiculously slow to me. I'm a 1500 protoss main who rarely plays t and just for fun but I always hit a timing of 9 minutes or less with 3 bnshees 1 raven and 20 plus marines with combat shield and stim about to finish by the time I hit their base. Now that is a scary ass timing window for protoss. I've never lost to a toss with this build which I find incredibly stupid because I rarely ever play terran and its the only build I know, but its never failed me yet. On the flipside, I find that the easiest way to deal with this timing is to rush an observer and then chargelots to templar just for feedback. I find that if you can spot them with ur obs when their moving out, u can position ur temps to just feedback the raven and banshees easily. Once the prepping is done and in a wosrt case scenario you just feedback the pdd, cleanup should be easy, as all the t army consists of at this point are glasscannons and damaged banshees. Guardian shield and feedback are the two most critical spells for this push
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157875.jpg)
