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On October 09 2010 10:55 Raggydiaper wrote:Hi Guys, I've been having problems against this build epecially on scrap station. But here is a replay of me beating it. I faced the same guy before and he crushed me but this time it was revenge ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155929.jpg) I opted for a FE + robo right after my nexus was planted. I noticed he was very marine heavy with my scouting probe and I had a feeling he was doing the hellion drop into banshee (ech's build) so I positioned my stalkers at my mineral lines and sure enough he tried to hellion harass, stomped it pretty hard. After the hellion harass I assumed 100% he was going to go starport so I put down a stargate and all my assimilators. I feel if he just pushed a minute earlier would have been a different story, I noticed his control was shit at the last battle and good forcefields with last minute phoenixes won me the game. If he has 2 banshees : 1 phoenix is a good ratio
nice, nevertheless once I saw that he tried to counter-expand I knew he would fail hard
the marine/banshee/raven push is ONLY that dangerous because it comes at around 10-10:30 with ~26 marines + 1-2 marauders, raven and 2-3 banshees + 1-2 medivacs; at this point you effectively can't have storm and your phoenix-count will also be quite low still
as soon as the terran tries to counter-expand he loses every critical timing-window he has, once the protoss-expo has paid off and provides masses of gate-way-units + enough phoenixes to own banshees hard
you are perfectly right, he could've pushed earlier (not only a minute, but at around 10-10:30; timings taken from demuslim vs naniwa) if he hadn't tried to establish the expansion of his own
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Actually experienced my first loss against a protoss using this vs 1500.
He expanded fast and walled cannons on steppes, He had about 2 colossus and a bunch of stalkers by 11:30ish when I fought, probably the 4 cannons made the difference, being able to hit me for a full 20 damage instead of the stalker's 10 as well as blocking.
I probably coulda won if I wasn't a bonehead who charged right in and didn't just snipe off his natural with 9 banshees, his stalkers couldn't fight back since only 2 of them could target me at that range.
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I did some unit-tester-testing together with yabot and it seems like you can get two colossi together with 2-3 phoenixes with 3-4 stalkers + sentry + zealots at around 10:30 which beats this hard
I figured, what you really need is area of effect damage against the marines, I did some testing with chargelots and they just died too fast to be worth the tech; templars will be too late, I tested the timings; in demuslim vs naniwa, demuslim attacked at a point in time where I would never have been able to get templar according to my yabot-testing;
what you need to strive for is to kill the marines FAST with the colossi, best would be to keep them up at your ramp and place one perfect forcefield; your gateway-units will die, but so will his marines; in the end your phoenixes should live and be able to clean up the banshees; if you have phoenixes + one colossus left you are in a very good position because you can throw down an expansion while he lacks the critical number of marines to do any damage
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On October 09 2010 19:36 MadisonStreet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155995.jpg)
I didn't throw down the stargate fast enough, it was too late for me, didn't matter what I did >_> .
two phoenix have no chance vs 8 banshees
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On October 10 2010 07:42 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2010 19:36 MadisonStreet wrote:On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees. I didn't throw down the stargate fast enough, it was too late for me, didn't matter what I did >_> . two phoenix have no chance vs 8 banshees
maybe you're interested, did some testing in the unit-tester, turns out that getting colossi is still better than early charge-lots vs marine/banshee/PDD - given that he attacks when you don't have HT yet of course (which will basicly always be the case); even though banshees have high dps vs colossi, their damage-output is way higher than charge + more zealots and stalkers could compensate at the point in the game where the attacks normally occur
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On October 10 2010 07:48 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 07:42 Minigun wrote:On October 09 2010 19:36 MadisonStreet wrote:On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees. I didn't throw down the stargate fast enough, it was too late for me, didn't matter what I did >_> . two phoenix have no chance vs 8 banshees maybe you're interested, did some testing in the unit-tester, turns out that getting colossi is still better than early charge-lots vs marine/banshee/PDD - given that he attacks when you don't have HT yet of course (which will basicly always be the case); even though banshees have high dps vs colossi, their damage-output is way higher than charge + more zealots and stalkers could compensate at the point in the game where the attacks normally occur
You are probably right, it was 4:00 in the morning, who knows what I was doing XD .
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Anyone else think a lot of these problems would be solved by buffing stalkers a little and nerfing pdd a lot?
I mean my cousin just watched me play the other day and asked why I was massing my starting unit against terran, lol. Speedlots for the win.
I really think Blizzard was so afraid of recreating the dragoon that they won't do anything to make stalkers actually viable in so many situations.
That or reduce the marauder + armored damage, it is just sick.
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What problem?
I can't remember the last time I saw a pro terran even make a PDD.
oh and stalkers are awesome, don't rag on them!
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Stalkers are entirely dependant on blink to be effective past the first 3 minutes of the game, and even then they are all too often in situations where they just melt to marauders.
Marines in equal cost beat stalkers. Marauders of equal cost slaughter stalkers. What gives? How about just giving them 14 damage to anything. Marauders should be weakened a bit and marines start with their old 40hp. The MM combo with stim is just too good now for a strategy that requires zero micro.
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Oh it's imba whine.
Watch some pros or something. They make lots of stalkers.
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Well, I don't want to derail, but because you make a unit doesn't mean it doesn't need help. People made stalkers before they got buffed in beta when they were really bad, simply because you had no choice.
And I actually don't have too much of a problem with stalkers in PvZ. The problem is that pretty much every terran unit cost effectively counters them. Marauders just destroy them, even marines for cost, stimmed or not. That isn't even counting the banshee or raven with PDD.
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On October 10 2010 08:59 Yaotzin wrote:
What problem?
I can't remember the last time I saw a pro terran even make a PDD.
oh and stalkers are awesome, don't rag on them!
orly?
GSL http://www.gomtv.net/videos/1034/0
TL entry http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Polt_timing_attack_(vs._Protoss)
Stalkers are awesome... when they can attack x_x
Some here are crying imba, but most of us are just trying to find a way to effectively counter this incredibly power early-Terran play. So please. If you have any ideas, contribute, if you don't, then allow us to discuss in peace.
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Someone would have to test how the battle turns out, but it does seem to me that if you research hallucinate and have energy for 4 hallucinates by the time he attacks, you can nullify his PDD by suiciding in 4 fake phoenixes. So for 100/100, stalkers are now usable again. I still don't know if a mainly stalker army beats marine/banshee, though.
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On October 01 2010 12:22 Millitron wrote:
I feel like all the people saying this is unstoppable are trying to fight it right outside their natural. You need to fight the push all the way to your base. Use the fact that stalkers can kite. Force him to PDD way before your base, then back off. Stall him basically. If he stims and chases your stalkers, thats a good thing, his rines get caught away from the PDD and banshees and get wiped out by zealots and good FFs. Alternately, you can just continue to back off and make him waste stims. Remember he doesn't have medevac's, so 1 stim is almost 1/5 his army's total HP. You need him to use PDD's and stims well before your base, so that once the push finally gets to you, the marines are all red health and the Ravens have no energy.
Really Protoss should fight ALL pushes like this, but thats a whole different discussion.
Ya this reminds me of pvt in bw. If you didn't stall T's pushes with goon kiting, you were dead for sure.
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small note, vs most builds protoss usually doesn't have this option as concussive shells make it impossible to hit & run
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On October 10 2010 12:38 0mgVitaminE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 12:22 Millitron wrote:
I feel like all the people saying this is unstoppable are trying to fight it right outside their natural. You need to fight the push all the way to your base. Use the fact that stalkers can kite. Force him to PDD way before your base, then back off. Stall him basically. If he stims and chases your stalkers, thats a good thing, his rines get caught away from the PDD and banshees and get wiped out by zealots and good FFs. Alternately, you can just continue to back off and make him waste stims. Remember he doesn't have medevac's, so 1 stim is almost 1/5 his army's total HP. You need him to use PDD's and stims well before your base, so that once the push finally gets to you, the marines are all red health and the Ravens have no energy.
Really Protoss should fight ALL pushes like this, but thats a whole different discussion. Ya this reminds me of pvt in bw. If you didn't stall T's pushes with goon kiting, you were dead for sure.
Because you can kill banshees harassing your probes when your force is at their base right?
Being outside Ts base is ridiculously risky. Stim + conc mara, drops, banshees, hellion runbys - all of these things punish that kind of positioning.
On top of that, fighting banshee/marine is way way way harder than fighting marine/tank. Banshees are much faster, take many more hits to kill, can stack on top of marines so you can never get free shots on them, and they completely, utterly decimate everything on the ground.
The fact is, this push is strong as hell even without a raven. There's so many variations that you cannot be assured of safety if you move your force out to their natural.
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On October 10 2010 08:56 Ascendant13 wrote:
Anyone else think a lot of these problems would be solved by buffing stalkers a little and nerfing pdd a lot?
lol
plz stop these kind of posts, they are not helpful...we are trying to come up with solutions here and don't wanna cry about imba
of course a lot of these problems would be solved by super-strong stalkers, useless PDD, nerfing banshees, hell even by buffing zealots so I can a-move right over every teching terran
but cmon man, that's not the point of this thread....
to make this a constructive post:
I've played around in yabot and came up with a build that leads to combo that outright beats the marine/banshee/raven-composition of demuslim (!) at the point of his timing attack: he had in his game vs nani:
26 marines, 2 marauders, 2 medivacs, raven, 2 banshees; ready at 10; arrived at 10:30
basic build order:
standard 12-gate, early (19) gas, start robo immediately after core, chrono boost stalker, chrono-boost observer, chrono-boost immortal (meaning stalker/sentry/immortal vs early aggression; maybe wanna switch observer/immortal when on close-positions); then constant chrono-boost probes for better 1-base eco; 2nd gate as early as you can afford it; rest of the chrono-boost goes to warpgate-tech; as soon as you scout get robotics bay;
cut gateway-production when bay is done and start producing colossi, also throw down a stargate; use chrono-boost on phoenixes immediately when stargate is done;
I managed to get:
9 zealots, 4 stalker, 1 sentry, 1 immortal, 2 colossi, 2 phoenixes at 10:30;
key is to produce only zealots while throwing down the tech-buildins and going for colossi; 1 immortal + sentry means you are safe against early marine/marauder shenanigans, given that you are indeed sure he doesn't have 3 rax-production
when to play this? when you scout 2/1/2 with reactor first baracks; the terran-build goes real slow on banshees and tries to capitalize with the high-dps-marines while forcing the protoss into a banshee-counter; therefore you want aoe-dmg (colossi) fast while getting the phoenixes also a bit slower;
when not to play this? when you scout 1/1/2 with tech-lab on baracks; this means much, much fewer marines and much earlier/more banshees; then you'd want the stargate before the robotics bay, which means you get phoenixes way earlier and delay colossi;
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-155384.jpg)
watch that replay. i played vs a terran who did same exact thing.
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On October 10 2010 19:57 JDM.s2000 wrote:watch that replay. i played vs a terran who did same exact thing.
he didn't do the same exact thing at all - he got hellions and tanks (!) first, many, MANY vikings and later a couple of banshees
also you opened with phoenixes and got your robotics facility at 12 minutes into the game; sorry, but if he had gotten cloaked banshees you would've died multiple times before that; your strat worked which is good for you, but it's definitely not a safe opening to go with phoenixes into expo templar and then add a robotics very late into the game
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On October 09 2010 19:36 MadisonStreet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 04:30 kcdc wrote:On October 07 2010 13:13 Raggydiaper wrote:On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it. kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help I unfortunately don't have a replay like that in my saved folders, but I've played it out mutliple times and it definitely works. I think Minigun uses the same response. You might check out the replay he posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887¤tpage=37. I haven't watched it, but he said it shows a 1gate FE and features a phoenix transition as a response to to banshees. Also, 3 constantly producing gates are enough to deal with early 1-base bio pushes, so if you're feeling that the observer is scouting too late to respond with phoenixes, you can afford to blindly start a stargate when you have the resources available with constant production from your 3 gates. Use zealots to kill the marines and as long as you have a single phoenix, you'll be fine against the banshees.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157875.jpg)
