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On October 07 2010 02:19 Endbringer wrote:
The build is not all in. If you beat the push the terran does not instantly lose. It doesn't even have to be on 1 base, you can expo behind the push. People need to stop saying every build they lose to is an all-in. A 5 gate protoss opening is all in, if you constantly build units you don't build up the money to expo. Pushes with 5-10 scv's are all in, if you beat it you win. A push with a pile of marines and some banshee's is not all in. If you kill all the marines and the banshee's the terran can expo and transition.
I assume u mean 4 Gate? I've never seen a 5 Gate opening and i can't imagine how u could support this? Btw. <smart ass> 4 Gate is a semi all in, since u can just stop to produce units to save up ... u don't have to go through with the 4 gate if u realize early enough it has failed. </smart ass>
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No actually I mean 5 gate. You can go 5 gate and support it, you just have to occasionally cut probes. Day9 actually talked about it a few times in his casts as well. What exactly does semi all in mean? Its almost an all in? That would then be called a Not all in build, which is exactly what I am saying. All in is being used for just about anything people lose to now. If you beat the push and auto win due to a huge eco advantage, that's all in. Semi all in is basically just about any aggressive opening.
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I've been struggling with this push too much, as it seems every Terran just figured how to beat Toss %100 of the time. Someone mentioned hallucinated phoenix eating up the PDD, but since the Raven is a detector, does anyone know if the PDD will still block the attacks? If a detector is around a hallucination, the attacking units will ignore the hallucination and go for the real ones.
The reason why this build is so strong is for 2 reasons. 1) It's almost impossible to stop (I have yet to see someone stop it, but I say "almost impossible" because there must be a way, we just need to come up with one) and 2) When we do find a way to beat it, it will probably leave the Protoss susceptible to early bio pushes or early 1 Rax expos, since the focus of our build will be ant-banshee//anti-raven.
Here's the bane of my existence: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Polt_timing_attack_(vs._Protoss)
And the link to the GSL game showing this build, it's game 1 so you don't need the subscription
http://www.gomtv.net/videos/1034/0
To any Terran out there, how has this build NOT succeeded? Besides your own microing mistake?
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On October 07 2010 05:09 PsychedelicMonk wrote:I've been struggling with this push too much, as it seems every Terran just figured how to beat Toss %100 of the time. Someone mentioned hallucinated phoenix eating up the PDD, but since the Raven is a detector, does anyone know if the PDD will still block the attacks? If a detector is around a hallucination, the attacking units will ignore the hallucination and go for the real ones. The reason why this build is so strong is for 2 reasons. 1) It's almost impossible to stop (I have yet to see someone stop it, but I say "almost impossible" because there must be a way, we just need to come up with one) and 2) When we do find a way to beat it, it will probably leave the Protoss susceptible to early bio pushes or early 1 Rax expos, since the focus of our build will be ant-banshee//anti-raven. Here's the bane of my existence: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Polt_timing_attack_(vs._Protoss)And the link to the GSL game showing this build, it's game 1 so you don't need the subscription http://www.gomtv.net/videos/1034/0To any Terran out there, how has this build NOT succeeded? Besides your own microing mistake?
I believe PDD will use up charges on hallucinated targets that are detected regardless. That being said that's 100/100 and 100 sentry energy for a hallucinated phoenix. I don't know if it's a good investment, much less one that turns a massive 1 sided loss into a victory.
You are very correct about your 2nd reason. You CAN beat this push. You just have to open fast colossus and phoenix at the same time while basically making only enough units to stop the hellion drop or couple banshees that will be poking in to harass. Try that vs anything else and you're likely behind or dead. I'm pretty sure phoenix won't even be a viable option when T gets good enough to scan and pick observers with marines/vikings. In theory we haven't even seen the skill cap of what T can do with this build. That's what scares me the most.
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scout -> stargate -> 3gatepush ?
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On October 07 2010 02:46 Endbringer wrote:
No actually I mean 5 gate. You can go 5 gate and support it, you just have to occasionally cut probes. Day9 actually talked about it a few times in his casts as well. What exactly does semi all in mean? Its almost an all in? That would then be called a Not all in build, which is exactly what I am saying. All in is being used for just about anything people lose to now. If you beat the push and auto win due to a huge eco advantage, that's all in. Semi all in is basically just about any aggressive opening.
Can u link me to these dailies? Must have missed them. I am really curious how u can keep 5 Gates running. Tons of zeals and sentries i assume? I already have problems keeping 4 Gates running as it is.
Semi all in means that u can transition out of it if u choose to or if the situation requires you to, but there is a point where u can't transition anymore.
So basically, if u keep the Gates running its an all in, if u let them rest and transition something else its not an all in anymore. Ofc there is way more to it,
but u can just read the desc. in the wiki -> 4 Gate Push
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On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience.
This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game.
Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it.
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On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it.
Can you go 1 Gate FE into 3 Gate Robo into Stargate and 2 more gateways in time? This push happens at around the 10 minute mark. If so, God bless you sir, and please post a replay so I can literally bask in your ambiance. Because that'd be sick.
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I was just in a similar situation, cept instead of marine/raven/banshee
it was viking/banshee/marine.
Around 7-8 banshee/10 marine. 4-5 viking vs
7 stalkers, 5 zealots, 2 obs. (and later, like 9 stalkers 4 pheonix vs a similar force).
I tried mass stalkers but he would scan and snipe the obs with the vikings before I could do much against the banshees, while the marines and the banshees ate my stalkers.
I couldn't do anything against him because his marines ate my pheonix, his vikings + scans beat my obs and then banshees raped my stalkers.
Any idea what would beat this?
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Can u post a replay?
'cause this ...
On October 07 2010 09:14 Drathmar wrote:
...
Around 7-8 banshee/10 marine. 4-5 viking vs
7 stalkers, 5 zealots, 2 obs. (and later, like 9 stalkers 4 pheonix vs a similar force).
...
Any idea what would beat this?
... sounds like a macro problem.
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It probably was now that I watched it I did notice I was getting supply blocked fairly frequently. The numbers were kind of wrong as well.
I went phoenix kind of late and never used my robo much was gonna WP harass with it but his vikings shut it down. This was actually a horrid game for me looking back at it  .
replay (if you still want to watch): http://www.mediafire.com/?rphbtlabdb6liuy
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On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 11:29 travis wrote:
if it's just like 2 banshees
chargelots. lots and lots of chargelots. then just enough stalkers to beat the banshees.
u want to engage away from your own base somewhat, so that when he lays down the PDD u wipe his ground army out with chargelots, then run back. if banshees follow thats when u kill them with stalkers.
if he has 2 ports up... you basically have to get phoenixes in my experience. This. Also, phoenixes are insanely good in mid-game PvT against anything that isn't pure bio. They crush banshees obviously, but they're also awesome for shutting down drop harass, chasing down hellion harass, picking up and neutralizing tanks, and killing MULES when they're not busy with their other tasks. As a general rule, if you see T building a factory, phoenixes will probably be a good investment at some point in the game. Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it.
kcdc, can you show a replay of you crushing this build? it's not only the units but knowing the timing (when placing down the two gates + stargate) will help, and the position/location of the engagement would greatly help
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On October 07 2010 06:58 kcdc wrote:
Since I started going 1gate FE -> 3 gate + robo -> add stargate and 2 more gates against banshees, I almost never lose to this push. Gateway units + 2-3 phoenixes crush it.
replay or doesn't/didn't happen (probably too harsh, but I just wanted to write this once  )
since the push normall comes between 9-10 minutes, you won't have any useful tech out, unless you really rush colossi (first one will be there at 9:30, but this would mean no phoenixes); if you go 3 gate robo stargate you will definitely NOT have charge (TC + research = 190 sec)
for me this push has gotten to the point where I just wanna punch myself in the face; yesterday I've lost against (2 different) T-custom-game-partners EVERY game where they did 1/1/1; once I even managed to snipe the raven with my phoenixes, but the mass-marines just cleaned up my gateway-units who weren't in superior numbers because of the phoenixes
when I go 1 base the necessity of the robo really screws up my options; I'd like to go 2 gate stargate into TC and rush out charge; but then again cloak will just GG me; even if I know what's coming (hiding probe in base/fog and spotting early fact) I end up getting crushed; I really hope somebody can provide a rep where he beats a 1.2k+ T doing this - not having a plan that I know "can" work when I execute it smoothly is like the worst feeling; seeing naniwa losing against demuslim doing this didn't particularly help either....
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I usually stop this build by going 1 gate -> robo (observer) -> 2nd gate -> Citadel (Chargelot) -> Starport.
Scouting probe confirms mass marines, in which I cut back on stalkers and go mainly zealot/sents. The observer confirms double starports which is when I throw up the stargate.
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On October 07 2010 19:01 MayorITC wrote:
I usually stop this build by going 1 gate -> robo (observer) -> 2nd gate -> Citadel (Chargelot) -> Starport.
Scouting probe confirms mass marines, in which I cut back on stalkers and go mainly zealot/sents. The observer confirms double starports which is when I throw up the stargate.
TC before stargate - will definitely try it today if my practice partners are online (chances that I run into a 1/1/1-terran on ladder are still quite low on my level; most of them just mass MMM)
@Gnial: I know the reps, the lack of the raven is the main reason why I'm reluctant to adapt my own strategy based on what white ra does; because without a raven I could indeed just go mass-gateway after throwing down a nexus asap
nevertheless the raven means that my stalkers will REALLY lose effectiveness - meaning that I can't rely on my "defender's advantage" because I have to force out PDD on the open field and retreat; which means I'll possibly lose quite some units in the process;
pure marine/banshee is indead (hard) countered by FE and 6-gating, the cost-effectiveness of banshees gets nullified by the sheer economical advantage that provides the early expansion; especially since you can also afford pulling and losing probes when defending, if you just manage to kill him off and deny him an expansion of his own;
but one - or worse, two - PDD in front of my base mean pure havoc when I don't have phoenixes to harass beforehand and maybe snipe the raven
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On October 07 2010 06:48 iPoLL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 02:46 Endbringer wrote:
No actually I mean 5 gate. You can go 5 gate and support it, you just have to occasionally cut probes. Day9 actually talked about it a few times in his casts as well. What exactly does semi all in mean? Its almost an all in? That would then be called a Not all in build, which is exactly what I am saying. All in is being used for just about anything people lose to now. If you beat the push and auto win due to a huge eco advantage, that's all in. Semi all in is basically just about any aggressive opening. Can u link me to these dailies? Must have missed them. I am really curious how u can keep 5 Gates running. Tons of zeals and sentries i assume? I already have problems keeping 4 Gates running as it is. Semi all in means that u can transition out of it if u choose to or if the situation requires you to, but there is a point where u can't transition anymore. So basically, if u keep the Gates running its an all in, if u let them rest and transition something else its not an all in anymore. Ofc there is way more to it, but u can just read the desc. in the wiki -> 4 Gate Push
He has never done a daily on 5 warpgate specifically, he has just mentioned the build a few times. It would take a lot of daily watching for me to dig up which episodes he mentions the build in. I know he again mentioned it in passing in the last 2 days. Originally it might have been the 4 warpgate daily or the one talking about huk. It was one of the dailys from back in beta.
I read the liquidpedia thing you linked, I can see where you get your description. That seems like a valid descriptor of the 3-1-2 build, semi-all in.
As for supporting a 5 warpgate, you can just cut probes after you have a solid income to get the extra minerals to focus on more zealots. That's why its a true all in, unlike the standard 4 warpgate push.
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As a Terran player the things i notice are that only thing that really rapes me is zealot/sentry when I go a raven push. I almost always get a free observer kill right when my raven spawns, and if P expos about the same time that my raven comes up it gets really one sided.
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Has anyone tried 4 gate robo with fast warp prism drop (4 zeals) into warp? At that point he should mostly still have marines.
I have only run into this build once, when I saw a bunker I assumed some sort of tech, seemed to work quite well.
Just a thought.
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On October 07 2010 21:50 Bungle wrote:
Has anyone tried 4 gate robo with fast warp prism drop (4 zeals) into warp? At that point he should mostly still have marines.
I have only run into this build once, when I saw a bunker I assumed some sort of tech, seemed to work quite well.
Just a thought.
tried it once, is a very nasty all-in that fails hard when you don't do considerable damage - if he pulls SCVs and manages to kill your warped in forces quickly you are dead
also fails miserably when he is preparing for a hellion-drop instead of banshees because hellions are actually quite good vs zealots --> scvs + hellions + marines won't end well for warpprism-warp-in
I've just stumbled upon a game from huk vs jimmy where huk did indeed win with brute force - he went for 2 gate robo, added a quick TC and also expanded quickly when he spotted the first banshee; added 2 more gates and went for pure gateway + charge; chargelots rape bio so hard when they aren't massed from 3 rax and supported by tons of medivacs....it wasn't even funny; the stalkers (blink was also nearly done) cleaned up the banshees; although a stargate could've helped too at this point, maybe instead of the 4th gateway
I'll definitely try quick chargelots into expand when I get home - charge could be the key to get rid of the high-dps marines fast enough to enable stalkers/phoenixes to do their job on the banshees
although counter-inuitive, it could be helpful to lay really low on sentries because they soak up the gas which is really needed for the techs; if you go for quick charge, force-fields will work against you in mid-game, and guardian shield doesn't work on charge-lots either, because the charge-lots are normally out of range of the shield after they have charged up; therefore sticking with 1-2 initial sentries and going zealot/stalker heavy could be the key to allow a much faster tech (TC/charge right after robo) - the expo can be afforded anyways since the terran won't move out before he has his banshees/raven;
dunno about the polt-all-in with only one raven + one banshee....here it probably comes really down to forcing the PDD + stim (is it researched in this build at all?) outside of your base and pulling back immediately afterwards, replenishing the army and re-engaging the marines that are maybe already hurt from the first stim too.....no idea if this works....
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EPT
